Dave Edwards is a Spazz

Okay, so we let the Pugh guy post here, and join here and he doesn't like it here. He can stay or go that's up to him. But first I want to get to the bottom of something? Can he read?

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Back in May there was a comment in the section that reprinted the original article- by member Force 17. It read...

Simon Wells has written a book called Coming down fast and he has done some original research on this rather than another cut and paste job. Dont think it has a US release yet.

In the letter Dave Edwards wrote us, he defensively states that his article is not a cut and paste job. Fine. The comment is clearly referring to other books like the GoRightly one and two others.

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Dave responds to my comments. One of his comments is

Of course newspapers aren't necessarily right but they've always been, and remain, forums of free expression. Sure, sometimes articles are skewed to toe a particular line but this wasn't the case with my piece.

Dave- If you've taken a look around you will see that this site, Bret's site and Cat's site all have one thing in common. We want the truth. A tabloid newspaper wants to be sold. It doesn't, by definition, care about the truth. We do....

I'm sorry, but nothing in my piece expresses admiration for Vincent Bugliosi. Incidentally, didn't Susan Atkins refer to him as the 'Bug'? I really, really hope that you haven't taken to quoting her. That would suggest this is a pro-Manson site rather than something more even-handed.

...And we have been able to, via research and actual free thinking, establish that someone who stalked his milkman thinking he was his son's birth father, who assaulted his mistress and who made up a bullshit motive for the crime of the century should not be trusted, cited or referred to. The moment you cite BUGliosi you lose. Because he is the cause of all the lies out there. His win at any cost ploys helped him to win (although ironically tied him to Manson for life) and helped us lose out on understanding what really happened. And you stand corrected- all of the Family referred to him as BUGliosi (not just Susan, even though BUG dwells on her in his novel). We are not pro Manson. For the record I once again state- Charlie Manson was a short, charasmatic, con artist, a punk who had spent 18 years taking it in the ass. When he got out he continued a life of petty crime. And he never KILLED anybody, so painting him as Satan, as Bug does, is just bullshit. So face that truth, Mr. Edwards. It's where the facts actually start.

If British tabloids really are as bad as you suggest, why on earth are you reprinting my loathsome, inaccurate and sensationalist article? And as far as a response goes, how about sending something to the letters page? It's not hard to do. Try google. Alternatively, there's a forum for comments on the paper's website.

Well Dave, I reprinted it so we can examine and dissect it- not because I assumed that it was the truth because the great Dave wrote it! And why do I care to respond to the paper? Are they official? We are! And why comment on the site? I don't care about the site at all.

This has me at a total loss. And what's with the swearword? This blog follows every twist and turn of the Manson story, happily devoting thousands of words to unsubstantiated rumours but then gets its knickers in a bunch when someone goes out and does some investigative reporting. The reason I looked into Joel's life was because I wanted to tell his story which, as far as I'm aware, had never been properly told. Why has that created such animosity?

Total loss? No doubt. Swear word? Aren't you a grown up? Unsubstantiated rumors? Not sure what you mean but if so I will FUCKING swear that I labelled them as such. Unlike- well, you. Telling Joel's story is a good idea... the question we are discussing is, did you? It appears many people think not. Sorry.

As far as 'sticking around' and learning the truth goes, rest assured, I'll do just that but I'm starting to thin this isn't the place to do it.

Ah, well, there you go. I'm sorry we didn't bow down and accept your tabloid article as God's word.
But at least we got that picture out of it!
Oh and as far as your "truth" goes, Cats from the other great site has a letter for you- she don't think much of your shit either-

Dear Mr. Dave Edwards,

I take note of your presence here yesterday reading this thread, then alas, you appear on the Colonel's site addressing what we have posted here concerning your article.

I take offense to what you said concerning us here, and we do not have hostility nor think we know everything about the TLB case. We just call bullshit bullshit and I am sorry that you did not deem it necessary to address us here on the points made in this thread. You are a member and can post.

The autopsy report has been seen, and Simon too has spoken to Joel's brother Daniel.

The infamous letter with the line about what happened to Joel not happening to the writer is reproduced in full in Simon's book, and when taken into proper context and seeing the letter in full, that single solitary line doesn't mean what has been gathered all these years.

Cats
----------David Gets Snarky in The Comments, Col Dissects----------

Gosh, my own thread. I’m honoured.If the guy could READ he would notice this is his THIRD thread.

Colonel,It's COL thanks I’ve read your comments and, after due consideration, I want to apologise. The points you’ve raised are not only pertinent, beautifully put and well argued; they’re also accurate. You mean this as a snarky asshole, but in fact are correct.

This isn’t easy for me to do but… I want to say sorry. no you don't. This makes you a liar.

First, I want to apologise for writing an article about the Manson case without seeking your permission. I thought it was about Joel Pugh- and you still keep being a smug limey asshole..Given how you, and you alone, possess the truth, I WISH I possessed the truth it was simply inexcusable. After much soul-searching, I’ve realised that somehow I have become part of the Great Media Conspiracy that has turned a basically nice guy like Charlie into the devil incarnate. The media didn't do this, BUGliosi did- with Charlie's complicity. LEARN TO READ.

May I also apologise for quoting Vincent Bugliosi who (you’re absolutely right) knows nothing about the case. Hey guys, CAN THIS GUY READ? I never said he knows nothing- he knows quite a lot. What he SAYS cannot be trusted though. You, Susan Atkins and the others are absolutely right -- he really is a bit of a ‘BUG’, isn’t he?He's a lying, woman attacking former DA.

I also want to – hand on heart – apologise if I suggested your website was in any way pro-Family or that you’re a Manson apologist.Anyone that could READ would realize this isn't true. That’s clearly not the case at all. Having looked over your site, it’s now clear to me that Manson is an unfortunate, misunderstood and largely harmless individual who should be freed immediately so he can spread his gospel of peace, love and death.See what I mean, loser- no where does it say that- too bad you cannot READ. Sure, he may have directed the residents of Spahn to commit mass murder,likely did not he may have tied up the terrified LaBiancas not "may"- didbefore they were horrifically killed, he may have orchestrated the murder of Shorty Shea depends on what you mean by orchestrated, he may have sliced off Gary Hinman’s ear,Hinman's corpse clearly has an ear in the autopsy record so he DID NOT do this he may have shot Lotsapoppa did, he may have raped teenage girls who found themselves at Spahn,we can agree to disagree about this he may have ordered the murder of poor Joel except he didn't and NOBODY but you, the poor reader, thinks that he did.but, as you rightly say, he was merely a short, ‘charasmatic’ con artist. Boy, did I get my facts wrong!And you continue to. Again, I’m sorry.

Sometimes it takes a man to stand up and admit his mistakesWell since you are a poorly educated limey fool who could only sell his 6 months of work to a British tabloid, let me know when you find a man. Well, I’m doing just that. Colonel, you’re truly a one-off. A fearless seeker of the truth and someone clearly unafraid to courageously ask the big questions that most shy away from.This is accurate May I also compliment you on your spelling and grammar – you’re also a commander of the English language. My prose is pretty solid, thanks. You CAN'T FUCKING READ so please don't try to teach.I salute you! I’m also glad you haven’t lost your sense of humour during our tête-à-tête. I can’t remember the last time I was called a ‘Spazz’ but I think it was in a playground.No. It was yesterday. By me. Because? Well, you are a spazz. Anyway reading your letter thinks to themselves "Wow, what a spazz!"

Peace, brother, and fingers crossed Charlie, Susan, Linda and all the other victims of disinformation in the media finally win their long overdue parole. God I hope Susan never gets out. Charlie never will no matter what I hope. And Linda IS NOT IN JAIL.... SPAZZZZZZZZ!

The Guy Who Wrote The Pugh Article writes to us (and joins us?)

Hi everyone,

Apologies for leaving it so late but I thought I'd respond to all your comments regarding my article. Very briefly, I spent six months writing the piece.

I've been a journalist for the past 13 years and came up with the idea of writing a piece on Joel Pugh after re-reading Helter Skelter last year. Over many, many nights, I contacted Ed Sanders, Vincent Bugliosi, Curt Gentry and others looking for leads. They were all extremely helpful and, after a very, very long time, I was able to contact Joel's brother, Dan, to find out a little about what became of him. I then put together the article you now see and placed it with a newspaper.

While I'm proud to have been the first to piece together the life and times of Joel (a warm, witty and idiosyncratic guy), I'm bemused at the hostility my article has caused. This is something I noticed on many of the Manson websites. It's as if there's a hardcore of people who believe they know the truth of the murders who dismiss those who come up with anything off their radar. I can understand this given all the disinformation out there but, still, the patronizing air is stifling. I'm as fascinated as them about the killings but am not arrogant enough to think I'm the sole keeper of the Tate/Labianca flame.

Incidentally, if the webmaster sees fit to post all my hard work here, I'm offended s/he uses the intro 'but how much do I believe?' Why didn't they have the courtesy to get in touch with me first? I'd have been happy to answer any questions they had. Believe it or not, I didn't make this piece up. Every word was drawn from first-hand testimony, contemporaneous newspaper reports and documents.

As far as Force 17's comments go, may I suggest s/he actually reads my article, which is comprised entirely of original research. It's depressing when people dismiss newspaper articles as 'cut and paste jobs' but even more depressing when the critics don't appear to have actually read them.

As for Simon Wells' book, I finished reading it this week. I thought it was an interesting summary of the phenomenon that, rightly, steered away from the whole Helter Skelter mythology. I notice on other websites he's unhappy at my article, suggesting I've twisted the facts to make a suicide look like a murder. Again, the criticisms are delivered in a familiarly patronizing tone, suggesting I've trivialized Joel's life and death for tabloid readers. I refute this and refer Simon to the blurb on the back of his own book that refers to 'new evidence linking a cult member to a murder in London'. Murder, huh?

Having spent a long time perusing this site, it seems clear the users have a distinct distrust of the media (just like Manson himself, incidentally). That doesn't mean all newspaper articles are wrong.

David Edwards

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Col Writes-

Nor does it mean that they are right. You start off expressing admiration for BUGliosi who wrote a self-aggrandizing book full of lies. How should we respond? That newspaper is a UK Tabloid. How should we respond? You decided out of a clear blue fucking sky to do a story about Joel Pugh- it doesn't get more obscure than that. How should we respond?

Welcome to the Blog. Stick around and you might learn a thing or two.

The Harlot Who Wouldn't Die

Dying Manson killer seeks parole; hearing put off

By LINDA DEUTSCH

AP Special Correspondent

LOS ANGELES (AP) — Susan Atkins was expected to succumb to brain cancer months ago, but the former Charles Manson follower imprisoned for killing actress Sharon Tate nearly four decades ago still clings to life.

Now, a hearing that is perhaps her last chance at freedom has been abruptly put off until September.

Her lawyer husband doesn’t know if the 61-year-old Atkins will make it. But that’s fine with the family of Tate, among seven people killed by Manson followers in one of the most notorious murder cases of the 20th century.

"They all should live out their natural years in institutions," said Debra Tate, the younger sister of the slain actress. If they are released, she said, "I can’t trust that they won’t inspire other individuals to do similar acts."

It’s been more than a year since prison doctors gave Atkins only a few months to live. She lost a bid for compassionate release from prison last July. Now, her parole hearing, initially scheduled for last week, has been delayed three months because parole board members were unavailable.

"I don’t know if she’s going to make it through that long," said her husband, James W. Whitehouse. "She is deteriorating."

Whitehouse said his wife has undergone surgery to remove a brain tumor, is paralyzed over most of her body, can’t feed herself and has lost most of her ability to speak. Still, Whitehouse said, Atkins plans to attend the hearing, even if she is on a gurney.

The gruesome murders that made the cult infamous were discovered on Aug. 9, 1969, when a maid ran screaming from the home shared by Tate and her husband, director Roman Polanski.

Five people were killed in a ritualistic manner, including Tate, who was 8½ months pregnant; coffee heiress Abigail Folger; and celebrity hairdresser Jay Sebring. Two other people were killed at another home. Polanski was not at home at the time of the slayings.

Atkins admitted stabbing Tate to death even as Tate begged for her life, claiming she and other cult followers acted on orders from Manson and were on LSD.

The chaotic, nearly yearlong trial concluded with Manson, Atkins and two other followers, Patricia Krenwinkle and Leslie Van Houten, convicted and sentenced to death. The sentences were commuted to life when the death penalty was temporarily outlawed in the United States in the 1970s. They all remain in custody.

Deputy district attorney Patrick Sequeira said he planned to argue that "the enormity and the severity of the crimes" weighs against granting her parole.

At a hearing in 2000, Atkins acknowledged, "I sinned against God and everything this country stands for." She said she wanted to make amends for what she did.

Whitehouse, 46, said his wife has made him a better person in their 21 years of marriage and should be released, if nothing else, to save taxpayers her hefty medical expenses.

Debra Tate, 57, the last surviving member of her family, said brain cancer can go into remission and she doesn’t know if Atkins’ condition is as grave as her husband says.

She said she remains in touch with her sister’s widower, Polanski, and feels that he has designated her the keeper of the victims’ rights in the case. Polanski remains in exile in France, having failed recently to get a decades-old child-sex charge dismissed.

Although many life-term prisoners have come and gone from behind bars while Atkins was incarcerated, none of the Manson killers has been paroled. Krenwinkle and Van Houten remain at the California Institution for Women at Frontera. Every few years they appear before parole boards and ask for release. Manson, now 74, has ceased to request parole.

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Col's Note- Debra "feels" this way like I feel I need a scotch.

John Bis a Fucking Idiot

Now we all know, or at least SHOULD know, that Wikipedia is a stupid website that is run like an online role playing game. ANYONE can edit it, even special needs children, so therefore NOTHING can be taken as accurate. Its founder recently had his semen encrusted shirt auctioned on ebay, so that gives you a good profile of the place.

That being said, it takes a special kind of idiot to spend a lot of time playing on Wikipedia and becoming an editor. A fucking idiot. This of course is today's topic of discussion, John B.

John has anointed himself the Manson expert on Wikipedia, because, well he read HELTER SKELTER once. And of course, like the fucking idiot he is, he believes it to be an accurate depiction of what happened.

So Helter Skelter, the bullshit theory that even the Bug's fellow prosecutors believe is bullshit? John buys it.

And so he writes this article
on Wikipedia. And it is just so full of bullshit that I want to throw up and then throw up some more. But don't point out that even fellow prosecutors thought Bugliosi was full of shit. No, then this lame ass bitch Wildhartlivie will show up and change things and get you banned.

So what we have is a wrong, provably stupid article that is treated as encyclopedic by the web and thus more and more people are told INCORRECT information by this guy.

It's kind of a shame. But then I guess if people treat Wikipedia as truthful they get what they deserve.

He's a Little Bit CUNTy, I'm a Little Bit Devastated

So I woke up on Memorial Day and found out that Savage Jim From NY had had the Col's entire YOUTUBE account nuked.

Like removed.

Gone.

Hours and hours of research now removed.

I don't know what to say.

Teh Internest Full of Lies? Oh Noes!!!!

So there was this bullshit piece in a goddamn gossip column about Oliver Stone making yet another version of HELTER SKELTER. This didn't ring true thought the Col. Oliver Stone was way too smart than to fall for the Bug's point of view. So rather than spread internet lies I called up Oliver Stone. I am please to report that this is 100 % bullshit. His next film is Wall Street 2. I'm not sure THAT'S a good idea, but at least it won't hurt our search for the truth.

The Fires Are Burning

Barker Ranch, the old Death Valley mining camp notorious as Charles Manson's hide-out, has been gutted in a suspicious fire, according to the National Park Service.

“The building is gutted, burned out,” said Terry Baldino, chief of interpretation at Death Valley National Park.

The homestead’s rock walls and tin roof were still intact, but its hand-hewn wooden interior beams and window and door frames were all reduced to ash, he said. An outbuilding, originally built as a garage or workroom, was destroyed, Baldino said.

Park officials said the fire might have started last weekend; it was reported Wednesday. No cause has been identified and the fire is under investigation, Baldino said.

The cabin is in a remote area of the park and used by backcountry campers. It had a stove and a fireplace, but there was no water source in the area. If the fire was inadvertently set, there was no water available to put it out.

“The thing that is really sad,” Baldino said, “is that a month ago we had a restoration crew out to stabilize the place. We were afraid the wood lattice and tin roof would come off. We replaced wood timbers in the sagging roof and cleaned up the interior and the grounds. It was actually in fairly good shape when we finished.”

The simple cabin was built in the 1930s by a retired Los Angeles Police Department officer, who, with his wife, had staked a gold claim. The Barker family then bought the house and worked the claim.

In the late 1960s, the Manson gang roamed the barren Death Valley landscape in dune buggies and prepared for "Helter Skelter," a race war Manson was trying to spark. The phrase was taken from a Beatles song, which Manson believed was encoded with predictions that the conflict would destroy modern civilization. Manson and his followers planned to survive by living in a tunnel, then emerge as leaders of some new world order.

Manson eventually was arrested in the cabin, hiding in one of the cupboards, after a 1969 murder spree in Southern California that included the killing of actress Sharon Tate, three friends and a teenager at the pregnant actress' Benedict Canyon home, and the slaying of a couple in Los Feliz.

The ranch was the subject of renewed attention recently when a local police detective searched the site for possible clandestine graves. The excavation revealed little more than a few bullet casings.

—Julie Cart

Movies That Won't Happen for 300, Alex

CANNES -- Bill Gottlieb's U.S. production banner Gorilla Pictures and L.A.-based American Media Group are ramping up their co-production partnership with a slew of projects including Jesse V. Johnson's "Debt Collectors."

Going into preproduction in the fall, "Debt Collectors" is written and will directed by Johnson and is billed as neo-noir drama centering on the story of two professional debt collectors.

The project marks the second collaboration for Gorilla and AMG on a Johnson movie. The first will see the duo unspool the filmmaker's noir drama "Charlie Valentine" here in the Marche du Film.

"Valentine" stars Raymond J. Barry, Michael Weatherly, Tom Berenger and Steven Bauer and details the story of a gangster and his relationship with his son.

Also in development at AMG is "Within Screaming Distance," written by Joseph Stefano before his death in 2006. Stefano was living next door to Sharon Tate when she was savagely murdered by Charles Manson in 1969. His screenplay centers on a Hollywood party occurring next door to Sharon just before she was murdered.

Also heading into the preproduction phase in early 2010 is "Dead Man's Party," a horror pic written by Lou Aguilar, and "Hard Dazed Night" written by Steve McKean, Frank Elkins & Jack Airey.

There Was NO PARTY- But the Myth Continues.

'ALLO 'Allo creator Jeremy Lloyd may only have been married to Joanna Lumley for six short months in 1970.

But without her there wouldn't have been Rene, Yvette, Herr Flick and all the rest of the French resistance gang.

Jeremy's not surprised by her stand against the government on behalf of the Gurkhas.

"Like my father, who was a colonel, Joanna's father was an army man, a Gurkha commander, and she was born in the Himalayas.

"Our friendship's outlasted our marriage," he said.

Joanna is just one of a host of beautiful women Jeremy worked with over the years, and there would probably have been no 'Allo 'Allo without her.

Jeremy returned home from a spell in America where he'd won an Emmy for his part in TV comedy Rowan and Martin's Laugh In, co-starring with Goldie Hawn.

"I'd just come back to collect some things," he said. "But then I met Joanna and that rather delayed going back. But she didn't want to go to America, so I stayed over here."

Maybe it was a wonder he had time for a writing career at all. He giggled at the idea that as a stunning-looking young actor he was an It boy of the time.

"I was engaged to an It girl, Charlotte Rampling, in fact she's coming to see me in three days as we're still friends.

"It was an amazing time. I appeared with Goldie Hawn, Bing Crosby, Danny Kaye, Ronald Reagan, Frank Sinatra, they were all on the show."

Jeremy also confirmed what is often thought of as an urban legend, that he should have been at actress Sharon Tate's house the day Charles Manson murdered her in one of the most notorious incidents from Hollywood's past.

"Sharon's husband director Roman Polanski had asked me to look up Sharon while I was out there. I was staying with Leslie Bricusse who worked on songs with Antony Newley and from his house we could see Sharon Tate's roof.

"I rang her and she invited me over for tea the next day. But I went out drinking with the actor George Hamilton and we were back very late, slept in till five the next day – I'd been asked round for four. I tried to phone to apologise, but there was no answer as Manson's people had cut the wires. So I should really have been there when it all happened."

As well as appearing in Beatles movies A Hard Day's Night and Help!, Jeremy acted in West End plays and had TV roles such as a sooty chimney sweep in the first colour episode of The Avengers.

"I took Diana Rigg out for a while after that," mused Jeremy.

And in movies he went from uncredited performances such as Man Doing The Twist in 60s film Play It Cool to roles in Murder On The Orient Express and Tom Jones.

"I wasn't just a writer or a performer, I was a performer who broke into America. Because I looked very silly."

But maybe not that silly. Jeremy revealed he was getting 5,000 fan letters a week from across America.

"They were from girls all over the country – some of them sent photographs!"

You'd never guess Jeremy had a broken leg, injured while falling downstairs.

As well as a packed social life, he's working on a new sitcom called Here Comes The Queen, written with his 'Allo 'Allo co-writer David Croft.

"We've made it and we're trying to sell it and I'm working on another play called Last Tango For A Gigolo, I'm looking for finance.

But Jeremy already had form when he and David Croft first got together to write 'Allo 'Allo.

His first sitcom had been Are You Being Served? in 1972, the hit show based on the antics of the staff of an old-fashioned department store.

"I based it on my own experiences working in the suit department of a big shop in London called Simpson's," said Jeremy. "And that is the most true to life of the sitcoms I've worked on. It really was like that to work in shops like that in those days.

"When I'd come back from America, David and I had been asked to write a show to be one of a number of pilot shows – that was the one that took off!

'Allo 'Allo notched up a victory for international relations last year.

Jeremy said: "German TV bought the 85 episodes and they're translating them all into German.

"I think it's had a harmonising effect with all the different countries represented in it – a lot of Germans have liked it over the years. I think it's like in the First World War when both sides got together and sang Christmas carols."

Jeremy revealed that people like to turn up to see the tour of 'Allo 'Allo in costume.

"It's like audiences do with the Rocky Horror Show," he said.

"I went to see the production in Bournemouth and about 100 German generals came walking down the street towards me."

We're Back // Bobby and Jane Doe

Hi
I didn't post for an entire month. I'd love to tell you that I was on vacation but I wasn't. Or that I was in prison but I wasn't. Or maybe I was on an Amazonian exploration with BRET (whose goddamn site is goddamn down again) but I wasn't. You know what?

I didn't have anything to say!

Sorry kids... I tried. I wanted to. Truly I did.

But I just didn't have much new to add to the discussion. And the Col doesn't like to flap his mouth off. So I shut my pie hole and kept earning major dollars and ignored the ONLY Official Tate LaBianca Blog in existence.

I'm not sorry. I'm just sayin.....

But now I'm back. And I promise to make up for it in the Merry Month of May.


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Today's Topic

Did Bobby Beausoleil kill a girl before he killed Gary Hinman?

Cats and others are discussing this here.


The Col's Thoughts

I'm friendly with Bobby.
I kind of doubt it.
It came from the Zodiac message board, which tried to charge me $5 to join.
How come this has never ever ever ever been mentioned before? Even by the BUG during the trials? They were desperate to get a conviction the second time around and would have used anything.

on the other hand

It takes a lot to kill people. I mean I there are people I'd LIKE to kill but it ain't gonna happen. Conscience, blood and all. Now once you have done ONE, two or three more, it gets easy. Look at Tex for example. And if you study the Hinman story as much as I have (the fringe stories, Hinman, Lotsapoppa, Shea, are where I believe you will find the truth) you'll see there comes a point on Sunday where Bobby just decides in his head, Fuck it, and kills him. And do not underestimate, that is an amazing step- major- unless he has done it before.

So I don't know.

What do you all think?

Spurious Stories

Aging Manson 'Family' members long for freedom

• Story Highlights
• Recent release of Charles Manson's prison photo rekindles interest in case
  
• Other members of Manson's "family" now shun him
  
• They are described as model prisoners
  
• Susan Atkins, who has brain cancer, has her 18th parole hearing May 28
  

By Ashley Broughton
CNN

(CNN) -- Susan Atkins is terminally ill; Charles "Tex" Watson is an ordained minister. They and other members of Charles Manson's murderous "family" now shun him.

After three decades behind bars, Manson family members Atkins, Watson, Patricia Krenwinkel and Leslie Van Houten have repeatedly been described as model prisoners who have accepted responsibility for their crimes.

Parole boards, however, continue to reject their bids for release, and a debate rages over whether the four should ever be freed.

The release of Manson's prison photo recently rekindled public interest in slayings of pregnant actress Sharon Tate and six others in a two-night rampage that terrorized the city of Los Angeles, California, in August 1969. CNN looked into the status of some of his former followers.

Atkins, California's longest-serving female inmate, requested a "compassionate release" from the California Board of Parole Hearings in July. She has terminal brain cancer, doctors say. The board unanimously denied her request.

Atkins' 18th parole suitability hearing is scheduled for May 28, according to a Web site maintained by her husband and attorney, James Whitehouse. The Web site says Atkins, now 60, is paralyzed over 85 percent of her body and cannot sit up in bed or even be moved into a wheelchair.

Despite her declining condition and spotless prison record, the site says, "there is still a very real chance the Parole Board will nonetheless insist her release would be a danger to society."

The Manson family members were initially sentenced to death, only to have their sentences commuted to life in prison when the U.S. Supreme Court struck down death penalty laws in 1972, establishing a four-year moratorium on executions.

By her own admission, Atkins held Tate down as she pleaded for mercy, and stabbed the eight-months-pregnant woman 16 times. In a 1993 parole board hearing, Atkins said Tate "asked me to let her baby live ... I told her I didn't have any mercy on her."

After stabbing Tate to death, according to historical accounts of the murders, Atkins scrawled the word "pig" in blood on the door of the home Tate shared with her husband, director Roman Polanski, who was not home at the time. Three of Tate's house guests were also slain, as was a teenager who was visiting the home's caretaker in his cottage out back.

Atkins' compassionate release was opposed by Tate's sister, Debra, Los Angeles County prosecutors and California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, among others. However, the former prosecutor who won her conviction, Vincent Bugliosi, said he supported Atkins' request for release.

Debra Tate told CNN in an e-mail she does not believe any Manson family member convicted of murder should ever be set free. She said the slayings of the victims, including some that may have not been discovered, were "so vicious, so inhumane, so depraved, that there is no turning back. "

"The 'Manson Family' murderers are sociopaths, and from that, they can never be rehabilitated," Debra Tate said. "They should all stay right where they are -- in prison -- until they die. There will never be true justice for my sister Sharon and the other victims of the 'Manson Family.' Keeping the murderers in prison is the least we, as a society who values justice, can do."

In a manuscript posted on her Web site, Atkins, who was known within the Manson family as Sadie Mae Glutz, wrote, "I will never be able to replace what my crime took away. And that's not 'neat,' and that's not 'cool.'"

Known as Katie within the Manson Family, Krenwinkel killed coffee heiress Abigail Folger at the Tate home and, the following night, stabbed Rosemary LaBianca and carved the word "War" on her husband Leno LaBianca's abdomen.

She remained faithful to Manson throughout her trial and into the first few years of her incarceration, according to a profile posted on the University of Missouri-Kansas City School of Law Web site, but she later "made strides to turn her life around."

Now 61, Krenwinkel is a model inmate at the California Institution for Women in Frontera, according to Lt. Robert Patterson, a prison spokesman. She is involved in the Prison Pups program, which helps train puppies to be service dogs, he said.

"It gives you a reason to wake up every morning, and keep moving on," Krenwinkel told Los Angeles station KABC, a CNN affiiate. The program at that time had trained more than 100 dogs; Krenwinkel said she was training her seventh dog.

According to the Manson Family Today Web site, which keeps tabs on all things related to the case, Krenwinkel has largely accepted the fact that she probably will never leave prison. Her next parole hearing will be sometime before December, Patterson said.

Van Houten was convicted in the raid at the LaBianca home, where she helped hold Rosemary LaBianca down as the woman was stabbed to death. At the time, she was 19.

"The autopsy reports have shown that it was Tex that wielded the fatal wounds, but I contributed, and I attempted to hold her down for Pat [Krenwinkel]," Van Houten said in a 2002 appearance on CNN's "Larry King Live." "I called to Tex because we couldn't kill her. You know, it's -- morally, I feel as though I did."

Her conviction was overturned in 1976, on the grounds that a judge erred in not granting a mistrial after the disappearance of her attorney, Ronald Hughes, who later was found dead.

In Van Houten's first retrial, the jury was unable to reach a verdict, and she was released on bond for a few months. But in her third trial, in 1978, she was convicted of first-degree murder.

Known as Lulu within the Manson family, Van Houten, a former high school homecoming queen, is serving her life sentence at the California Institution for Women at Frontera, the same facility as Krenwinkel and, until last year, Atkins.

Like Krenwinkel, Van Houten is involved in prison programs and is a mentor to other inmates in the facility's college program, Patterson said. She is also a model inmate, he added.

During her 2002 CNN appearance, Van Houten called Manson "an opportunist of the cruelest, most vicious kind." But she was quick to emphasize that she accepts blame for her role in the crime.

Like the others, Van Houten, 59, has repeatedly been turned down for parole. She is widely seen as the best candidate for parole. But her next parole hearing probably will not be until 2010, according to Patterson.

"Tex" Watson's participation in the Manson murders is "a part of history that he deeply regrets," according to a Web site dedicated to his prisoner outreach program.

Watson converted to Christianity in 1975, several years after he was incarcerated, and became an ordained minister in 1983, according to the site.

"He was manipulative," Watson said of Manson in a November 2004 radio interview, the transcript of which is posted on the Web site. "But I take full responsibility for my ignorance, lack of identity, emptiness and choices in life, which left me prey to his deceptive plan. My actions were my own."

Watson stabbed four people, including Tate, to death and fatally shot two others. After the Tate murders, Watson reportedly told Manson, "Boy, it sure was helter skelter."

However, Watson was not tried along with the others in the slayings. A month and a half after the two-night crime spree, he said, he fled to Texas.

Watson, now 63, writes on the site that he has no computer or Internet access in prison, but maintains contact with the site administrator through the mail and writes much of the site's content.

Watson had been denied parole 13 times as of November 2006, a correction spokeswoman said. His next parole hearing is scheduled for November.

----------

Ageing Charles Manson 'Family' members long for freedom

Posted: March 30, 2009, 2:20 PM by Karen Hawthorne

World, Crime

Thirty years ago on Sunday, March 29, a California jury sentenced Charles Manson and three members of his “Family” to death for murdering actress Sharon Tate and seven others. Claiming to be Jesus Christ, Manson had told his recruits that they needed to carry out a violent racial war as part of a prophecy he referred to as “Helter Skelter.”

Charles Manson, Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkel and Leslie Van Houten were expected to be executed by gas chamber to pay for their crimes, but those sentences were never carried out. In 1972, California abolished the death penalty and the four convicts’ sentences were commuted to life in prison.

Now, as CNN reports, Susan Atkins is terminally ill; Charles "Tex" Watson is an ordained minister. They and other members of Charles Manson's murderous "family" now shun him and have become model prisoners. Parole boards continue to reject their bids for release.

Renewed interest in the case has followed the recent release of a photo of the ageing Manson with a faded swastika still clear on his forehead.

Where are they now? According to a Web site maintained by her husband and attorney, James Whitehouse, Atkins, now 60, is paralyzed over 85% of her body and cannot sit up in bed or even be moved into a wheelchair. More from CNN:

By her own admission, Atkins held Tate down as she pleaded for mercy, and stabbed the eight-months-pregnant woman 16 times. In a 1993 parole board hearing, Atkins said Tate "asked me to let her baby live ... I told her I didn't have any mercy on her."

After stabbing Tate to death, according to historical accounts of the murders, Atkins scrawled the word "pig" in blood on the door of the home Tate shared with her husband, director Roman Polanski, who was not home at the time. Three of Tate's house guests were also slain, as was a teenager who was visiting the home's caretaker in his cottage out back.

As for Krenwinke, now 61, she is a model inmate at the California Institution for Women in Frontera, according to Lt. Robert Patterson, a prison spokesman. She is involved in the Prison Pups program, which helps train puppies to be service dogs, he said.

Known as Katie within the Manson Family, Krenwinkel killed coffee heiress Abigail Folger at the Tate home and, the following night, stabbed Rosemary LaBianca and carved the word "War" on her husband Leno LaBianca's abdomen.

She remained faithful to Manson throughout her trial and into the first few years of her incarceration, according to a profile posted on the University of Missouri-Kansas City School of Law Web site, but she later "made strides to turn her life around."

Known as Lulu within the Manson family, Van Houten, a former high school homecoming queen, is serving her life sentence at the California Institution for Women at Frontera, the same facility as Krenwinkel and, until last year, Atkins. Like the others, Van Houten, 59, has repeatedly been turned down for parole:

Van Houten was convicted in the raid at the LaBianca home, where she helped hold Rosemary LaBianca down as the woman was stabbed to death. At the time, she was 19.

"The autopsy reports have shown that it was Tex that wielded the fatal wounds, but I contributed, and I attempted to hold her down for Pat [Krenwinkel]," Van Houten said in a 2002 appearance on CNN's "Larry King Live." "I called to Tex because we couldn't kill her. You know, it's — morally, I feel as though I did."

And "Tex" Watson, now 63, converted to Christianity in 1975, several years after he was incarcerated, and became an ordained minister in 1983, according to a site for his prisoner outreach, CNN reports. He stabbed four people, including Tate, to death and fatally shot two others. After the Tate murders, Watson reportedly told Manson, "Boy, it sure was helter skelter."

Greg King Tells Lies

I read Greg King's book. It was overwritten but I liked it. It told more about Sharon than I knew so that made it a plus. I don't think it sold that well and that's a shame. Perhaps that is why he's having hunger flashes and flat out lying on line. He posted the following to findadeath- and KTS reposted it and sent it to me-


Originally Posted by Greg King
Man, I don't want to sound like a broken record, but...

Please don't believe all the garbage you see thrown around about Debra. Yeah, I have a personal bias here, but I can also guarantee I know more about her and her life than some anonymous internet source. Well Greg, I believe you know what she wants you to know, sure...

She's interested in fame? Hardly. She tries to stay out of things unless approached for interviews or to attend parole hearings or to try to stand up for the rights of victims. Otherwise her life is very quiet and secluded. Of course. That's why she's on television every two months over the last three years. They DRAG her. Sure. And why is she showing up at parole hearings that don't apply to her? Her mother and sister didn't. They didn't need the attention.

She lies about Sharon's murder? Again, nope. As I've said, Debra has never read anything about the murders and only knows what she hears from others or from rumor, just as with her mom. Yes, she has said some erroneous things but not maliciously but rather from genuine lack of knowledge, and she has no interest in reading accounts of her sister's murder or her autopsy report. Until a few years ago she didn't even know that Sharon's face had not been disfigured.Except some of the lies involve HER actions before, during and after the murders. How do you splain that one?

She was disinherited? Again, nope. I won't talk about the ins and outs here, but suffice it to say this is just plain wrong-and I DO know. Hey Greg- BZZZT- wrong answer. I've seen the will. Debra was disinherited. Her father never wanted to deal with her again. And spitefully, she refuses STILL to bury him. She doesn't even know Patti's kids. YOU DON'T KNOW so kindly STFU son you sound stupid.

Debra is one of the most amazing, genuine people I know, and no one posting crap about her has any idea, believe me, of her real life or experiences- not by a long shot. I know something about Pic Dawson and Deb's real life experiences, does that make me someone?

You can believe me or not, as is everyone's right, but you should consider just how much familiarity anonymous people on the internet asserting things about her have with the actual details of her life. Well I stand by the above points- you're welcome to refute them with facts Greg.

On the other hand, perhaps I should recall that Greg used Nelson as a primary source and even promoted his book on Nelli's site. That seems to say it all.

The Most We Have Ever Heard About This Guy

but how much do I believe? (I'm not gonna reset the photos, they look purty where they are and you can just deal with it)

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Did Charles Manson's murder gang strike in Britain?

By David Edwards

Hotel manager Joseph Falk discovered the blood-soaked body of the 29-year-old man at 6pm.

Joel Pugh had checked into the Talgarth Hotel, West London, five weeks before.

He was a genial young man who kept himself to himself.

He could often be heard playing his guitar through his door, which he never locked.

Yet in the weeks leading up to that day, December 2, 1969, he had seemed increasingly withdrawn.

Faces of evil: Charles Manson aged 74 (left) and as a 34-year-old in 1969 (right)

When the maid found his ground-floor room locked that Tuesday morning, Falk took it upon himself to enter with a pass-key.

‘It only opened about one foot,’ he later told police. ‘There seemed to be a weight behind it. I felt what seemed like an arm.’

A police constable was sent to the hotel in Hammersmith just after 6pm.

Inside the room he discovered Joel’s body lying on the floor, the walls covered in blood. Naked except for a sheet, his throat had been slit twice and his wrists slashed.

A week later, an inquest heard how notes containing bizarre mirror writing were found near his body, together with a hash pipe, leading a psychiatrist from nearby St Bernard’s Hospital to speculate Joel was suffering from depression.

More...

• The face of evil 40 years on: Prison releases new photo of mass killer Charles Manson

As far as the coroner was concerned this was nothing more than a tragic suicide. Case closed.

Now, 40 years on, the Mail has uncovered evidence suggesting Joel did not die by his own hand but was murdered at the orders of cult leader Charles Manson.

The notorious serial killer and five members of his so-called ‘Family’ are serving life terms for the 1969 murders of nine people, including the pregnant Sharon Tate, wife of film director Roman Polanski.

Now 74, Manson is imprisoned in a California jail — and a picture of him released this week shows his chilling gaze remains, as does a swastika carved crudely into his forehead.

Manson link: Sandra Good and Joel Pugh, who was found dead in 1969

Manson has hinted he was responsible for many more deaths — including a dozen people who may have known too much about his grisly crimes.

Retired LA police sergeant Paul Whiteley, who investigated the Manson-ordered slaying of musician Gary Hinman in 1969, says: ‘I’m almost certain Joel Pugh was murdered in England by a Manson Family member called Bruce Davis.

‘We know he was in London at the same time and we heard from an informant that The Family had struck in Britain, but we were never able to get Scotland Yard interested in the case. I spoke to them and they just wouldn’t listen.

‘We were, frankly, amazed the police in England had decided it was a suicide and refused even to consider foul play.

‘The crime scene was so similar to the one found in Sharon Tate’s house. I still think, even to this day, that Davis got away with murder on Manson’s behalf.’

Despite having been in prison since his arrest in 1969, Manson and his nightmarish crimes still exert a powerful psychological grip on America, where rumours he may have been responsible for dozens of other killings are taken seriously.

Last May, police excavated plots at Barker Ranch in Death Valley, Manson’s last hideout, looking for the remains of further victims, although none were found.

So how did a respectable boy like Joel Pugh find himself at the mercy of Manson’s cult? Tragically, his association with The Family came about through an infatuation he developed with a young blonde called Sandra Good.

After graduating from the University of Minnesota in 1962, Joel served two years in the U.S. Army. After leaving the military, he moved to San Francisco, California. It was here, while working as a lab technician, that Joel, 24, met Sandra, a stockbroker’s daughter.

Author Gerard Jones, who was then dating Sandra’s older sister, Ginny, remembers meeting the couple at the home of the girls’ father.

‘Joel was frail and sweet,’ says Gerard, now 66. ‘I remember thinking of him as a pleasant fellow and thought how lucky Sandra was to have met such a nice guy.’

Famous death: Sharon Tate, married to Roman Polanski, was killed by Manson

Sandra, who was four years younger than Joel, was a troubled young woman who, like so many of her generation, was searching for a purpose. Early in 1968, that purpose arrived when a friend offered to fly her to L.A. to meet a guitar-playing hippy known variously as The Wizard, The Soul, Jesus Christ — or, more simply, Charlie Manson.

Paroled from jail in March 1967, after several convictions for armed robbery and car theft, Manson had moved to San Francisco where the Summer Of Love was about to explode.

With dreams of becoming a famous musician like his idols, The Beatles, he set about creating a harem of willing young women whom he controlled through a combination of psychobabble and LSD.

The following April, Sandra joined what was later dubbed ‘The Family’ and became one of Manson’s most devoted followers. Her on-off boyfriend was less enamoured. Joel’s brother, Daniel Pugh tells me: ‘Sandra really wanted Joel to get to know Manson, but Joel didn’t want to. He thought Manson was a complete creep. He couldn’t accept Sandra’s association with him.’

The Family started out as a supposedly idealist commune rejecting conventional values such as materialism and monogamy in favour of ‘free love’. For a short time in 1968, their members even included Beach Boy Dennis Wilson, who was entranced by Manson’s charisma.

Gerard Jones says: ‘I’d hear what Sandra was up to from Ginny. Like how she was seeing Joel, or was off in the desert, or staying at one of The Beach Boys’ houses.

Behind bars: Manson in the 80s

‘Before all the murders, everything we heard about what Sandra was doing with Manson was very positive. It was like: “Wow, she’s doing cool things and staying with pop stars.”’

But troubled times were ahead. Daniel Pugh recalls: ‘Joel’s relationship with Sandy [as Sandra was also known] became very on-and-off.

‘Joel got it into his head he needed to fulfil himself. He was fascinated with zoology — so our dad bankrolled a trip for him to Brazil in 1968 and then another, the year after, to North Africa.’

During his second expedition, Joel experienced a bout of depression. After befriending a California tourist called Harriet Smith, he journeyed with her to Spain and then on to London. He checked into the Talgarth Hotel, on what’s now the A4, on October 27.

Daniel heard nothing from his brother during his stay in London but later pieced together his final weeks when he visited London in September 1971.

‘Harriet said Joel spent most of the time in his room and that she couldn’t get him to go out to see the sights of London,’ he says. ‘It was only later we learned that one of the Manson Family was staying just outside London at the same time.’

While Joel had been on his travels, life in The Family had taken a highly sinister turn. Frustrated at his failure to break into the music business, Manson had taken to listening repeatedly to The Beatles’ 1968 double-LP, known as The White Album. Tracks such as Blackbird, Piggies and especially Helter Skelter convinced Manson the band were sending him messages warning of an impending race war.

Convinced The Family would be the only white survivors of the looming apocalypse, an increasingly unstable Manson proclaimed himself the Messiah and ordered his followers to leave L.A. for the bleak canyons of Death Valley where they would sit out the imminent battle.

Inconveniently, the war had not begun by the summer of 1969, prompting him to order his disciples to kick-start it by committing the most brutal murders in American history.

On August 8, Manson followers Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkel and Charles Watson broke into a house in Beverly Hills and murdered Sharon Tate, socialite Abigail Folger, hairdresser Jay Sebring, Polish writer Wojciech Frykowski and 18-year-old Steven Parent.

The following night, Watson, Krenwinkel and fellow Manson devotee Leslie Van Houten stabbed to death the racehorse owner Leno LaBianca and his wife Rosemary at their L.A. home. In both cases, the attackers sought to blame the slayings on members of the Black Panthers — the Black Power organisation — by writing racially charged slogans on the walls using the victims’ blood.

The idea was to so outrage the white community that they would take up arms and thus start a race war.

While the world recoiled at the sheer savagery of the murders — Frykowski, for example, was stabbed 51 times — several other people loosely connected with The Family started to meet grisly, unexpected deaths in the following months.

On the evening of November 5, 1969, police were called to a house in L.A. where they found the body of John Philip Haught, a member of The Family, lying on a mattress with a bullet hole in his right temple and a revolver nearby.

Also in the room were four other Family members — including one Bruce Davis, a drifter from Alabama, who had become Manson’s fixer and right-hand man. They all claimed John had died while playing Russian roulette. Bizarrely, the officers believed the story, despite the fact the gun was fully loaded and had been wiped of prints.

Mad man: Manson pulls a face during his California trial in 1969

Then on November 16, the body of an unnamed teenage girl — who was widely thought to have been a former Family member but never formally identified — was found in a ditch with 157 stab wounds.

Just five days later, the stabbed bodies of 15-year-old James Sharp and Doreen Gaul, 19, were found in an L.A. alleyway. Doreen had once been a girlfriend of Bruce Davis, whose whereabouts at the time of the deaths remains unknown.

It is easy to see how Joel’s death fits in with the pattern of these killings. Many of these victims were once close to The Family — but were now drifting away from its clutches. Manson wreaked his bloody revenge on them and their newfound friends.

Joel’s relationship with Sandra had broken down and he had left his association with The Family behind him. This meant that he too was now, in Manson’s eyes, an enemy — and a traitor of The Family’s twisted cause.

Local district attorney Frank Fowles was concerned about the activities of The Family. He contacted Interpol to discover what Manson’s right-hand man, Davis had been up to. He learned that Davis had made a connection in the UK some months back with another controversial group, the Scientology religion.

Records showed Davis had been staying at a Scientology retreat in Felbridge, Surrey, before returning to the U.S. on April 25, 1969.

A letter sent to Fowles by Scotland Yard read: ‘It has been established that Davis is recorded as embarking at London airport for the United States of America on April 25, 1969, while holding United States passport 612 2568.

'At this time he gave his address as Dormer Cottage, Felbridge, Surrey. This address is owned by the Scientology movement and houses the religion’s followers.’

The letter continued: ‘The local police understand that he has visited our country more recently than April

1969. However, this is not borne out by our official records.’

Although Davis’ movements are hazy, researchers say he returned to England for more Scientology training on November 23, staying here for two months.

Curt Gentry, co-author of Helter Skelter, an account of the Manson murders and trial, says: ‘The one person who travelled more than anyone in The Family was Davis, who kept all the members’ stolen credit cards and phoney IDs.

'Joel Pugh’s death has always struck me as more than a suicide since Davis was in the UK at around the same time.

‘Davis was a fanatical follower of Manson and the kind of person who would be sent to do this.’

The coroner’s report of Joel’s death has long since been lost, so details of his last days are confined largely to two local newspaper reports of his inquest.

Under the headline: ‘Death notes in mirror’, the Fulham Chronicle of December 12 reports how a concerned Falk entered Joel’s room: ‘Entering with a pass-key, Mr Falk found he could only open the door a few inches and there was blood on the walls. He called the police who found Mr Pugh on the floor with a razor blade about two feet from him.

‘Also in the room the police found a pipe containing cannabis resin and several notes. But the notes were not suicide notes. Many were written in mirror writing and could only be read by holding them in front of a mirror.

‘A psychiatrist who saw the notes said that little could be evaluated from them except that they were suggestive of depression.’

Vincent Bugliosi, the L.A. County assistant district attorney who prosecuted Manson, remains troubled at how the Metropolitan Police didn’t investigate the death fully. He says: ‘While the case resembled a suicide, it looked, and still looks, like murder to me. Nobody thought the drawings or writings were important enough to take down.

‘Nobody thought it important to establish a time of death and, even though Pugh’s room was on the ground floor and thus could have been entered by a window, nobody bothered checking for prints. It’s now unlikely the mystery will ever be solved.’

Davis, 66, is now an inmate at the California Men’s Colony prison, 200 miles north of Los Angeles, where he’s serving two life sentences for murder.

The first is for the slaying of Gary Hinman, a musician and small-time drug dealer who was tortured for two days by Davis and other Family members who wanted his money.

The second is for the murder of ranch-hand Donald ‘Shorty’ Shea, who Manson believed was a police informer.

Davis has never spoken publicly about Joel’s death, but then there’s little incentive for him to do so since the sheer horror of his crimes means he’s unlikely ever to be released. Last September he was refused parole for the 25th time.

When I wrote to him, he replied to say he did not conduct media interviews, instead enclosing a pamphlet detailing how he became a Christian in 1974. Interestingly, the tract reveals how, like Joel, he travelled to North Africa, Spain and England sometime in 1969.

And Joel’s ex-girlfriend Sandra Good, who turned 65 last month, is also silent. After Manson was incarcerated, he set up a bizarre environmental group called Air, Trees, Water, Animals (ATWA). Sandra supports this movement — and ATWA’s website denies Joel was murdered.

It says: ‘Joel Pugh is described as a “former Manson Family member”. He never met Manson or any of the other so-called Family members. After Pugh’s death, his parents journeyed to London to satisfy themselves with the official verdict of suicide.

‘After checking all the medical records and the files at Scotland Yard they were satisfied the death was, indeed, a suicide.’

Although she had no part in any Manson murders, Sandra has repeatedly said she respects those who committed them and showed her solidarity with The Family’s new environmental ‘cause’ in 1975 when she was jailed for ten years for conspiracy to send threatening letters to businessmen she accused of polluting the environment.

As revealed by author Curt Gentry, soon after Manson’s arrest a letter by an unknown Family member was discovered in a flat Sandra rented that contained the line: ‘I would not want what happened to Joel to happen to me.’

Joel’s family may never know what really happened to the good-natured, quirky boy who set off for adventures in distant lands in 1969, never to return. Until Davis finally comes clean, their agony will continue.

"She Got OLD on Me"

Prison releases photo of elderly Charles Manson

Thu Mar 19, 2:03 am ET

LOS ANGELES – California corrections officials have released a new photograph of convicted mass murderer Charles Manson, who is now bald with a thick gray beard.

The photo of the 74-year-old Manson was taken Wednesday as part of a routine update of files on inmates at Corcoran State Prison, where he is serving a life sentence for conspiring to murder seven people, said Seth Unger, spokesman for the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation.

The cult leader was first sentenced to death for the 1969 murders of movie star Sharon Tate, coffee heiress Abigail Folger and three others stabbed and shot to death at Tate's home in Los Angeles. The next night, two others were stabbed to death at their homes.

The image — complete with a swastika carved into Manson's forehead — was released to the Los Angeles Times because the newspaper requested a copy the next time it was taken.

Manson's co-defendants — Susan Atkins, Leslie Van Houten, Patricia Krenwinkel and Charles "Tex" Watson — were convicted with him. Their death sentences were commuted to life when the death penalty was briefly outlawed in America in 1972.

Bobby's Five Year Denial

Finally connected with Bobby... I don't have the transcripts but his position seems to be that basically Prop 9 fucked him. This was a CA ballot initiative that among other things allows the Parole Board to max out your delays at will. As a "Mansonite" Bobby got fucked again.

From what we learn on the nets the law seems to be redundant and was funded by a billionaire now accused of felony drug conspiracy.

Thats what I know until we get the transcripts.

Blogging The New Atkins Book Part TWO- Say What?

Sorry for the delay.

Bidness.

So a second, closer examination of the book leaves the Col scratching his goddamn head.

Anyone else follow the motivation....

seems to flat out as

Charlie "kills"Crowe and therefore makes everyone else kill people?

Seriously is that what she is saying?

Blogging The New Atkins Book Part ONE- Say What?

Hi there.
Sadie, the girl who even if she didn't kill Sharon Tate at least wished that she did, was writing another book before she was diagnosed with only six months to live twelve months ago.

You can read it here.

It's not very well written. It is very self serving. Big surprises I know. Bret claims it is her third book but I only count one before this. In any case, I read it once and we're only going to plow through it to see what we can learn.

Any real value would be in the revealing of the hither to unknown motives for TLB. She does refute the Bug's lies- but then any two year old would do the same if they opened their goddamn eyes (I'm talking to you, Discovery Channel!). But her new motive- not so good.

Near as I could conclude her view is

1- Charlie thinking he killed Lotsapoppa started everything. I buy that.
2- Charlie wanted money to get the fuck out of town. Okay.
3- He thought Hinman had it. Maybe, this has been bandied about before.
4-Bobby was a leader of the Family too and Charlie wanted him to get his hands dirty. Okay except most evidence indicates Bobby was NOT a leader. Hell he was younger than some of the girls.
5- Bobby got sent to get the money along with Sadie and Mary because Charlie wanted their hands dirty. Charlie stabbed Gary so that Bobby would have to kill him.
6- Bobby goes to jail, Charlie doesn't want him to squeal about Crowe so he sends out people to do TLB as copycat murders but everyone was too stupid and no one linked them.

The biggest problem I have with this is that, besides from not making sense, I don't believe Bobby KNEW about Crowe until later. He wasn't a leader, sorry Sadie. And if Sadie is accurate and Charlie had Mary repudiate Bobby during the second trial, then Bobby would have made a deal to save his ass from the gas chamber RIGHT THERE by giving up Manson for Crowe. Remember, we're all just scholars here. Fucking GAS CHAMBER is a real thing- people give up their mothers to avoid it.

So while, as Bret says, there is some truth in what she says, her theory doesn't make sense.

Let's read together, shall we?

On the Run

Legal showdown set in Polanski's LA sex case

By LINDA DEUTSCH, AP Special Correspondent Linda Deutsch, Ap Special Correspondent 1 hr 36 mins ago

LOS ANGELES – A film has returned director Roman Polanski to the spotlight, though it's not one of his own making.

The much-anticipated courtroom showdown Tuesday on Polanski's effort to have a 31-year-old sex prosecution against him dismissed was sparked by an HBO documentary.

"Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired" aired new information about actions by the now-deceased judge who presided over his case, a scenario which his lawyers say amounted to misconduct.

But the central issue in the hearing will not be the allegations of misconduct but rather the question of whether Polanski's case can be heard out of his presence.

The director has said through his lawyer that he doesn't plan to be at the hearing; in fact, he says he has no plans to ever set foot in the United States again.

If he chose to appear, he likely would be arrested on a fugitive warrant.

The district attorney's office has argued in documents that — as a fugitive from justice — Polanski is not entitled to the processes of the court unless he appears in person to request dismissal.

His lawyer, Chad Hummel, has presented several legal arguments contending that Polanski should be allowed to have his case decided in absentia.

Since filing the request in early December, Hummel has filed many motions, among them a request to have the entire Los Angeles Superior Court disqualified from hearing the case because of bias against Polanski.

Superior Court Judge Peter Espinoza, who will hear the matter, ruled that neither he nor any of the judges of his court held any bias against Polanski, a view upheld on appeal.

On Friday, Hummel filed one last motion asking to subpoena three prosecutorial officials, two of whom were involved in the original case, to testify at Tuesday's hearing.

Espinoza took the request under submission and said he would rule Tuesday, but seemed skeptical of calling two of the men who are featured in the documentary. He said their testimony would only duplicate what they said in the film.

But Deputy District Attorney Pat Dixon, who appeared at Friday's brief hearing, argued that because the director refuses to return, "Polanski can't ask this court to do anything."

Polanski, who pleaded guilty to having unlawful sexual intercourse with a 13-year-old girl, fled into exile in France in 1977.

He had spent 42 days in prison in what his lawyers believed was his full sentence under a plea bargain. But a decision by the now deceased judge to add more prison time and require his voluntary deportation prompted him to leave the country.

The documentary on the case suggests behind-the-scenes manipulations which the defense claims amounted to judicial misconduct.

Polanski, now 75, lives in France where his film career has continued to flourish. He received a directing Oscar in absentia for the 2002 movie, "The Pianist." While still working in the United States, he directed such classic films as "Chinatown" and "Rosemary's Baby."

Yana

Bobby and Love

Leftover Reading

SometImes People Don't Think....

So say you want to write a book about the case. Or an article. Or how about a film?

Well, you COULD base it on one of the books about the case. The partially fictitious, fully self-serving HELTER SKELTER is pretty played out after that hideous TV remake a few years ago. Sanders' THE FAMILY, despite being a poorly organized checklist of events, might be a good idea, till you find out it is under option to Paramount Vantage (though with little likelihood that it gets made). There are other books out there too. Suppose you look around, realize that the upcoming books including Gypsy's, where she glosses over her crimes post-Charlie, and Tom O'Neill's ten year in the making book which tells us everything we already knew again are not for you, and instead decide to base your film on book XYZ by ABC.

Now remember, you don't HAVE to do this, simply because most of the material out there is in the publc domain. You could write an original screenplay. It doesn't have to be as bad and wrong as the MANSON GIRLS script hat Wyman and company were peddling (and still are apparently). Almost everything out there is open to the public- trial transcripts, newspapers, etc etc. You'd only have to worry that somebody who was never convicted of a crime who had a lot of money could come after you. And basically that's Melcher. And guess what- he's dead. After you're dead your reputation cannot be protected and you have no life rights. So I say go ahead and just write it kids. Or you could do like Wyman and get the life rights of someone like he did- Nancy Pittman. But why?

But suppose you really want to buy book XYZ? The normal way it works is that you give author ABC an "option". An option is a legal document that gives you the right to buy the book for a certain price during a set period of time for a small amount of money up front. For example, $10,000 for 18 months during which time at any point you can pay $300,000 for the film rights to the book. It is an option to DO something, in this case buy the book rights.

Well I recently learned that Xenon Films has optioned a book that they want to make into a film.

It is called "Will You Not Die For Me" by Tex Watson.

Fucking Hell.

This means that this company has given money to Tex Watson. A man who gleefully stabbed an almost nine month pregnant woman to death.

Charming.

I don't care whether they optioned the book for $1.00 or $10,000. They gave money to Tex Watson. They want to do his life story. Presumably how "poor" Tex was made by Charlie to commit 8 murders.

Sure they are a rinky dink company. Sure the film will likely not happen.

But there's a special place in hell for people who give money to someone like that. A hot place.

Obsessed Bitch from Ronson Board

This Robin Chick seemed at one point to think she was related to the Tates.

She is only sad and amusing now........


(Thanks to the emailer who sent this)

This Year I LIKE CHOPIN

Welcome to 2009.

This year we'll see many fortieth anniversary stories about the murders, all of whom will have BUGliosi holding forth on his one triumph in life.

This year we'll see Tom O'Neill's new book from Penguin, wherein his years of extensive research will reveal nothing new at all.

This year we'll continue to try to explain to people that Debra Tate was disowned by her family who would be appalled to find her at every parole hearing.

This year--- what do you hope for and expect?

Denial !

Bobby gets the worse denial I have ever heard. A denial of hope.

I hope he sues these guys against the wall.


Discuss.

Blogging MANSON'S FORGOTTEN VICTIMS

Hmmm Tom O'Neill is in the damn credits babbling about more bodies- he is now the new Debra huh..... Dostie can't accept that he had an EPIC FAIL- he found nothing at Barker and now he is roaming Spahn- is Gresham next, lol... Gypsy is on on second and she lies about being 17- she was 25 I think....Hoyt says they pretended to be "mountain folk"- what the fuck is that? Dostie is an expert on Helter Skelter - because he read it twice!...OMG O'Neill after ten years of research actually claims there are 24 murders they cannot pin on the Family- what a croc! There goes hopes for that book...Hughes wasn't murdered, sorry Kay...narrator lists 2 real victims, one likely victim and one non victim and then says there are many more- but no there aren't....more Dostie comedy...babbling about missing men- nonsense....sweaty O'Neill thinks the imaginay victims were snitches...Fat Hoyt says "Crossed Them" when she WAS "them"....Debra says "Hey Me!"....more Dostie frolics....Dostie gets excited to dig- in the footsteps of Larry Melton!...He fails then cries about limitatons....Sheriff speaks reason....Dostie goes to another Ranch....I wonder if he church know Paul is digging up their land- he has no jurisdiction here- just wants attention....I actually nod off during this crap....Dostie starts to look like Nelson to me...They fail again but cry about it again....Narrator claims there are more questions but there aren't....

Debra the Whale Flips Again

If you believe the evil Mark Turner whose site seldom gets updated anymore (and most of which is now inferior to the Bret site) Debra JUST found out that Bobby was having a parole hearing in a few days. Of course, Bret's site reported this weeks ago. It seems she wants the public, or at least some internet dicks, to write emails in a hurry saying he shouldn't be let go.

I mean what the fuck man?! Did Bobby do something to Sharon Tate that I missed? He was in a jail when TLB happened. Where does she get off stating this? Bitch was disinherited by her family and disowned because she was a lying psycho. She still refuses to bury her father's ashes as per his wishes. I think she takes them out and talks to them or some shit. From what I hear, Dad never forgave her when he learned she used to run around naked at the age of 16 with ~~~~, the drug dealing ~~~ in her sister's ~~~~. Is that why she was disowned? Why do Patti's kids never converse with their own Aunt? Doris and Patti never interfered in the parole hearings of people that didn't attack them. I used to goad crazy Jimmy about Leslie, but if one takes TLB as one event, well then Leslie was part of TLB. She just was. Bobby wasn't.

Now I'm not deluded. I wrote a letter of support for Bobby once. I like the guy. But I think he's probably screwed as a "Mansonite". I hope he gets out. But it isn't likely. So what is with this Debra shit anyway? More attention whoring?

Let me clarify some of this rant for a second. She can do whatever she wants. But I ask why? Why not focus on the right people? You lose the moral high ground when you attack EVERYONE. Not that she ever had any high ground to begin with.

I would be thrilled if Bobby got paroled. But there's zero chance. Go ahead Mark, write your letter.

What could it possibly say anyway? "Hi I run a site called Charliemanson.com. If Bobby Beausoleil gets out he might come after me for some of the shit I wrote about him. Please keep him locked up. I am 1/3547th Hinman by marriage. Thank you." I mean sheeeit!

[just in case anyone cares, the preceding is my constitutionally protected fucking opinion. Maybe everything above is just bullshit. Take it seriously. Or not. But ever since Adam Gabriel's lawyer-by-night threatened to sue me for the truth back in June, I gots to be careful. People can't read very well.]

The Painted Pony Goes Up and Down

Paul became a grandfather last month. RIP Paul Watkins.

The Col Still Reads

Sooo.... I am continually amazed by things people claimed back then with a straight face that were taken as true. In some cases they are still considered true, even if no human would ever seriously believe them. I am talking about Juan Flynn's assertion that he knew about the killings but it was okay. Uh huh.

Also today we see Melcher get away with easy questions... and most of the press seems to believe Charlie thought he still lived there. It explains Tate a lot more readily than believing the BUG's novel.

Finally we have the NY TIMES from the day of the Bruce Davis surrender, the first youtube I ever posted. It claims that Nancy was married to Bruce. I don't recall that. Anyone know if this is true?

What the Col Has Been Reading

Thoughts: An article from somebody who was there describes Charlie as 5 feet 7. ...ANOTHER killing that we never hear anything more on... Pugh, Zero, Merrick- this would not happen in 2008 .... I know people who know Rudy and I don't think he's considered credible.

(Click on article to read)

I don't think they really ate there anyway

Ruminations

Hi there.

It's been almost a month. I haven't posted. Why?

There hasn't been much to report and I have been busy. It's that simple.

Now we have a new president. And Bobby is gonna have an even tougher time getting parole- if he ever had a chance to begin with. And gays that were married aren't. Nice world we live in.

So anyway, have you noticed that it is 8 months almost and Susan Atkins still breathes? Too bad she didn't get out, huh?

Paul Watkins would now be a grandfather if he were still alive. Congrats to his daughter.

Anyone notice that Bret came back? Thank the Lord.

The Col is back. I'll stay around more this time. Thanks.