...Truth has not special time of its own. Its hour is now — always and indeed then most truly when it seems unsuitable to actual circumstances. (Albert Schweitzer).....the truth about these murders has not been uncovered, but we believe the time for the truth is now. Join us, won't you?
Thursday, May 29, 2008
Scramblehead
Tonight Bret will share with everyone what he shared with me two months ago.
What has the convicted killer of Shorty Shea been up to for decades?
How does he manage to stay in close contact with children?
If not for the drugs and legendary VD probably causing all kinds of infertility, there probably would have been a few more babies. Maybe even with old man Spahn! Okay, enough mindless gossip.
Onward to anticipating Bret's report tonight. I'm also very curious.
Col Scott: Absolutely fabulous picture for this post! Brings back memories of my own old gold Grand Funk record, lost so long ago in the clutter of our lives. Thanks for making me smile, especially today as I mourn the untimely death of one of my high school friends.
"...the deal he made with Judge Burton Katz who was instrumental in securing his release..." Katz! I didn't realize Katz was involved with Grogan's deal.
That's the same Burton Katz that presided in the trial of Dominique Dunne's killer, and his decisions against the prosecution and screwy instructions to the jury resulted in the killer being convicted of manslaughter instead of murder, which it clearly was. Dominique's killer did less than three years...
And why wasn't Grogan charged with conspiracy to murder the LaBiancas? Is Bugliosi ever held to answer for his inconsistencies?
I checked out Clem's...oops I mean Steve's...oops, I mean "ADAM"s band site. Pretty damn impressive as is the picture i saw of him jamming with Bobby Weir.
I guess I don't understand how he was declared retarded or such by a judge and others. You can't be retarded or stupid and do what "Scramblehead" has done.
Grogan lived through the Manson period which entailed murder and conspiracy to murder, was in prison for 15 years, and now is a talented and apparently successful musician.
F'n CRAZY !
And what a trip looking at those band pics on thier site. It may be my bias of this case but Grogan stands out like a thumb from the fingers.
I was curious to see hwta "Adam Gabrielle's" bio said...I trying to picture it...
BAND MEMBERS - Adam Gabrielle - Guitar, Vocals, Studied music at the Manson Music Conservatory, Member of the Bobby B Prison Blues Band for 15 years.
But, I didn't see any bio's on their site.
Now, my questions are:
Does Grogan know that he has been outed ?
Has anyone else or other media picked up on this or just Bret and The Col ?
And, Wonders what else the Col knows and is holding back until The Col decides is the right time.
Thanks much for this post Col. It was very interesting to me.
Also, I echo your very good question Marliese, "And why wasn't Grogan charged with conspiracy to murder the LaBiancas?..."
But having said that, perhaps IF anyone was innocent could a case be made for Clem ? As he was only 16 or 17 when all HS was going on.
Brian, I asked in response to Bret's comment that he was not charged as a co-conspirator in the LaBianca murders. There are many similar inconsistencies and Bugliosi has never addressed them with any certainty.
Inconsistencies such as with Shorty...others were involved...if not killing him, hiding the body and getting rid of his things. I think he's said there was always the possibility Shorty wasn't really dead...no body etc. But why was he not charged for the LaBiancas like the others?
I don't understand how SG leading investigators to the body earns parole. What about all the years Shorty was rotting in the dirt and nothing was done to ease his family's suffering of the disgusting legend of his body being chopped up?
Also, Brian...I know Clem was a minor in the early years, maybe during the exposure charges and his time at the State Hospital, but he was a local kid hanging around the ranch before the family's time there, and I think he was at least 18 by the time he and his friends were butchering people. He was prosecuted as an adult for Shorty's murder.
SG wasn't retarded and was never declared retarded. The judge said something like "...too stupid to decide anything on his own and too full of drugs..." He evidently had a huge appetite for drugs and when he wasn't in a stupor, the dumb persona may have been something he latched onto out of laziness. He was about as retarded as CM was a Sunday School teacher, and definitely not innocent...none of them were, except maybe those that had enough sense to leave early on.
Thanks for the info. I have looked around on the internet and see bios, etc. of Adam Gabriel. Is this REALLY Grogan? I see a little resemblance, I suppose, but I'm still not sure I believe it.
I guess I should'nt have tried to quote the judge...I was more trying to say that most things I've read, fact or opinion, on SG, "retarded" "idiot" or even "scramblehead" are usually the terms used to describe him.
And while I presented a possible argument, my personal opinion is definitely in agreement with you on Grogans's guilt and he not deserving to be paroled in the first place.
You talked about Bug's inconsistencies...as is our entire justice system.
I really like your opinions on this case Marliese.
Zoomjaw, Great comment !
Bret, Does Grogan know he has been outed ?
I noticed on Rythym Jive's My Space page, "Adam" is not listed among the band members. Was his name recently removed ? Is He still part of the RJ ? He is listed on the band's actual website.
I'm a bit confused as to who he had the son Adam by.
Is the son Adam by the same girl Grogan married in 75' ? Which that girl was supposedly handpicked for Grogan by Sandra and Lynette. That is according to Nellie, which the Col provided to us in a back post a way back. Did that turn out to be true or was Nellie off on that too ?
And finally, a bit off topic, but, does anyone believe that Dennis Wilson really knew the motives for these murders ? I just read about an interview with DW and Wilson said, "I know why Charles Manson did what he did. Someday, I'll tell the world. I'll write a book and explain why he did it."
Of course, it does not matter now if Wilson knew or not. I'm just wondering what others think about that. Thanks.
Adam Gabriel's name is listed on the band's MySpace page in the cache version, but has since been removed from the actual page. That tells me there's probably some fire to all of this smoke.
Having said that...I would be lying if I did not say that this whole episode troubles me somewhat. Here is a man who played by the system's rules and was lawfully paroled. He appears to have made a new productive life for himself far away from all of the madness.
I am as just as interested in the case as the next person. However, have we crossed the line when we use the internet to track people down and expose them?
I understand what you were saying about SG being known as scramblehead as opposed to being truly mentally retarded...I just think he was dumb like a fox.
AC: au contrair au contrair? Do two negatives make a positive?
JM30: I don't know if I'm bothered or not...so I geuss I am somewhat. I believe that if criminals are sentenced with the possibility of parole, and that if they do all the right things, then they should indeed be paroled. In a way it is good that SG has been paroled, because if he does go on to lead a productive life unfettered by his past association with Charles Manson of all people, then maybe other less notorious but otherwise deserving prisoners can win parole too.
Well, all of Grogan's, oops I mean "Adam Gabrielle"'s pictures have been removed from the band's MYSPACE and The bands official WEBSITE. And I can't even find their YouTube channel anymore, so I am wondering if the proverbial shit is starting to hit the fan.
If the band has or is going to fire Grogan, that might be the least of his worries and the band's.
SAFETY should be his number one concern. Safety for his child ADAM, his wife(if he is married), the band members and for himself.
If the wrong person or people find out this information and try to play "hero" of some sort, it could be really over for "Clem".
I would think Grogan knew this "day" would come and would somewhat be prepared. I don't know. How do you prepare for being outed as a convicted murderer ?
And I also wonder who sold Grogan out ? I know quite a few are blaming Bret but who told Bret ? Bret lists a anonymous source.
Bret, was the source anonymous to you or are you making the source anonymous for us ?
Brian: I was wondering the same thing about the slasher films. However...what is the definition of slasher films for this discussion...."Friday the 13th" movies? Hell, who hasn't watched those for entertainment purposes (laughing at the poor writing, etc.) I need more elaboration on that Bret observation.
With a bombshell this big, whomever Bret's source is, they have a moral obligation to come forward. Or, at least, Bret should have never guaranteed anonymity. This is a big deal...ruining a guy's (and his family's) life and threatening his safety.
And, I still cannot get away from this fact...whether you agree or disagree with Clem being paroled, he did do it by the book. He is NOT an escapee living like some former member of the SLA in a small town.
As long as Bret went this far, he MUST divulge his sources.
29 comments:
I can't say I'm not curious.
This probably will come out tonight but did "Scramblehead" have any children with any of the girls in the "family" ?
Hi Brian, I may have read or heard that he is the father of Catherine Share's son...
Thanks for letting us know about Bret's update, Col.
I don't think they bothered with paternity tests, Brian.
Marliese, Hi ! Thanks for the reply ! I thought he had to have fathered at least one.
Ace, LOL ! That's funny but sadly I think you are right there.
Well I am curious my self. I heard Clem played in Hank Williams Jr band for awhile.
Thanks for the heads up Col Scott.What time Thursday I wonder
Sure, Brian.
If not for the drugs and legendary VD probably causing all kinds of infertility, there probably would have been a few more babies. Maybe even with old man Spahn! Okay, enough mindless gossip.
Onward to anticipating Bret's report tonight. I'm also very curious.
Col Scott: Absolutely fabulous picture for this post! Brings back memories of my own old gold Grand Funk record, lost so long ago in the clutter of our lives. Thanks for making me smile, especially today as I mourn the untimely death of one of my high school friends.
Pristash
I am so sorry to hear of your friend death .
"...the deal he made with Judge Burton Katz who was instrumental in securing his release..." Katz!
I didn't realize Katz was involved with Grogan's deal.
That's the same Burton Katz that presided in the trial of Dominique Dunne's killer, and his decisions against the prosecution and screwy instructions to the jury resulted in the killer being convicted of manslaughter instead of murder, which it clearly was. Dominique's killer did less than three years...
And why wasn't Grogan charged with conspiracy to murder the LaBiancas? Is Bugliosi ever held to answer for his inconsistencies?
WOW ! That whole Clem story is unbelievable !
What another freakin' trip !
I checked out Clem's...oops I mean Steve's...oops, I mean "ADAM"s band site. Pretty damn impressive as is the picture i saw of him jamming with Bobby Weir.
I guess I don't understand how he was declared retarded or such by a judge and others. You can't be retarded or stupid and do what "Scramblehead" has done.
Grogan lived through the Manson period which entailed murder and conspiracy to murder, was in prison for 15 years, and now is a talented and apparently successful musician.
F'n CRAZY !
And what a trip looking at those band pics on thier site. It may be my bias of this case but Grogan stands out like a thumb from the fingers.
I was curious to see hwta "Adam Gabrielle's" bio said...I trying to picture it...
BAND MEMBERS - Adam Gabrielle - Guitar, Vocals, Studied music at the Manson Music Conservatory, Member of the Bobby B Prison Blues Band for 15 years.
But, I didn't see any bio's on their site.
Now, my questions are:
Does Grogan know that he has been outed ?
Has anyone else or other media picked up on this or just Bret and The Col ?
And, Wonders what else the Col knows and is holding back until The Col decides is the right time.
Thanks much for this post Col.
It was very interesting to me.
Also, I echo your very good question Marliese, "And why wasn't Grogan charged with conspiracy to murder the LaBiancas?..."
But having said that, perhaps IF anyone was innocent could a case be made for Clem ? As he was only 16 or 17 when all HS was going on.
Brian, I asked in response to Bret's comment that he was not charged as a co-conspirator in the LaBianca murders. There are many similar inconsistencies and Bugliosi has never addressed them with any certainty.
Inconsistencies such as with Shorty...others were involved...if not killing him, hiding the body and getting rid of his things. I think he's said there was always the possibility Shorty wasn't really dead...no body etc. But why was he not charged for the LaBiancas like the others?
I don't understand how SG leading investigators to the body earns parole. What about all the years Shorty was rotting in the dirt and nothing was done to ease his family's suffering of the disgusting legend of his body being chopped up?
Also, Brian...I know Clem was a minor in the early years, maybe during the exposure charges and his time at the State Hospital, but he was a local kid hanging around the ranch before the family's time there, and I think he was at least 18 by the time he and his friends were butchering people. He was prosecuted as an adult for Shorty's murder.
OK...I know...long time no post, but where can I find this Clem info??
SG wasn't retarded and was never declared retarded. The judge said something like "...too stupid to decide anything on his own and too full of drugs..."
He evidently had a huge appetite for drugs and when he wasn't in a stupor, the dumb persona may have been something he latched onto out of laziness.
He was about as retarded as CM was a Sunday School teacher, and definitely not innocent...none of them were, except maybe those that had enough sense to leave early on.
Jm, Manson Family Today dot com.
Thanks for the info. I have looked around on the internet and see bios, etc. of Adam Gabriel. Is this REALLY Grogan? I see a little resemblance, I suppose, but I'm still not sure I believe it.
I'll bet this story on Grogan will frost Charlie if he hears it.Ole Clem is living Charlie's dream.What an ironic twist.
Clem was always talented musically...he didn't just discover it after prison.
Marliese, Hi again ! Good posts !
I guess I should'nt have tried to quote the judge...I was more trying to say that most things I've read, fact or opinion, on SG, "retarded" "idiot" or even "scramblehead" are usually the terms used to describe him.
And while I presented a possible argument, my personal opinion is definitely in agreement with you on Grogans's guilt and he not deserving to be paroled in the first place.
You talked about Bug's inconsistencies...as is our entire justice system.
I really like your opinions on this case Marliese.
Zoomjaw, Great comment !
Bret, Does Grogan know he has been outed ?
I noticed on Rythym Jive's My Space page, "Adam" is not listed among the band members. Was his name recently removed ? Is He still part of the RJ ?
He is listed on the band's actual website.
Thanks again Col.
Also, Bret or Col, or anyone,
I'm a bit confused as to who he had the son Adam by.
Is the son Adam by the same girl Grogan married in 75' ? Which that girl was supposedly handpicked for Grogan by Sandra and Lynette. That is according to Nellie, which the Col provided to us in a back post a way back. Did that turn out to be true or was Nellie off on that too ?
And finally, a bit off topic, but, does anyone believe that Dennis Wilson really knew the motives for these murders ?
I just read about an interview with DW and Wilson said, "I know why Charles Manson did what he did. Someday, I'll tell the world. I'll write a book and explain why he did it."
Of course, it does not matter now if Wilson knew or not. I'm just wondering what others think about that. Thanks.
Pristash wrote: "Clem was always talented musically...he didn't just discover it after prison."
Au Contrair, that was him singing lead vocals and playing guitar on the "Family Jam" album.
Adam Gabriel's name is listed on the band's MySpace page in the cache version, but has since been removed from the actual page. That tells me there's probably some fire to all of this smoke.
Having said that...I would be lying if I did not say that this whole episode troubles me somewhat. Here is a man who played by the system's rules and was lawfully paroled. He appears to have made a new productive life for himself far away from all of the madness.
I am as just as interested in the case as the next person. However, have we crossed the line when we use the internet to track people down and expose them?
I can't help it. It just bothers me. Anyone else?
Brian, I appreciate what you said, thanks.
I understand what you were saying about SG being known as scramblehead as opposed to being truly mentally retarded...I just think he was dumb like a fox.
So...looking back, Clem was arrested for indecent exposure in June 1969, so he wasn't underage.
Thanks, 60s Kid.
AC: au contrair au contrair? Do two negatives make a positive?
JM30: I don't know if I'm bothered or not...so I geuss I am somewhat. I believe that if criminals are sentenced with the possibility of parole, and that if they do all the right things, then they should indeed be paroled. In a way it is good that SG has been paroled, because if he does go on to lead a productive life unfettered by his past association with Charles Manson of all people, then maybe other less notorious but otherwise deserving prisoners can win parole too.
Well, all of Grogan's, oops I mean "Adam Gabrielle"'s pictures have been removed from the band's MYSPACE and The bands official WEBSITE. And I can't even find their YouTube channel anymore, so I am wondering if the proverbial shit is starting to hit the fan.
If the band has or is going to fire Grogan, that might be the least of his worries and the band's.
SAFETY should be his number one concern. Safety for his child ADAM, his wife(if he is married), the band members and for himself.
If the wrong person or people find out this information and try to play "hero" of some sort, it could be really over for "Clem".
I would think Grogan knew this "day" would come and would somewhat be prepared. I don't know. How do you prepare for being outed as a convicted murderer ?
And I also wonder who sold Grogan out ? I know quite a few are blaming Bret but who told Bret ?
Bret lists a anonymous source.
Bret, was the source anonymous to you or are you making the source anonymous for us ?
CLARIFICATION - I should have said, "safety for his SON" instead of "child" as his son is now in his 30's as I understand.
But one question, Steve, if you happen to read this and it is true, WTF is up with the love for SLASHER FILMS ???
Brian: I was wondering the same thing about the slasher films. However...what is the definition of slasher films for this discussion...."Friday the 13th" movies? Hell, who hasn't watched those for entertainment purposes (laughing at the poor writing, etc.) I need more elaboration on that Bret observation.
With a bombshell this big, whomever Bret's source is, they have a moral obligation to come forward. Or, at least, Bret should have never guaranteed anonymity. This is a big deal...ruining a guy's (and his family's) life and threatening his safety.
And, I still cannot get away from this fact...whether you agree or disagree with Clem being paroled, he did do it by the book. He is NOT an escapee living like some former member of the SLA in a small town.
As long as Bret went this far, he MUST divulge his sources.
P.S......The only thing I am wondering is where Adam Gabriel had enough time in his life to spend 17 years being the lead arranger for Hank Ballard.
Clem was released in 1986. Ballard died in 2003. He must have gotten the gig right out of the joint while still painting houses.
JM30, Hi ! Thanks for the reply.
Good posts by you. Good to see you back on the board !
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