This is from his October 20, 1981 Parole Hearing. In it he gives the most detailed description of Shorty's murder I have heard. It contradicts things that Hoyt has said- but I never believed her anyway. Thanks to "Unstoppable " for the transcription. It is good reading.
INMATE GROGAN: Okay, I’ll start with the report that you read is pretty accurate insomuch as it describes everything that happened.
Few inconsistencies in the sense that, if I understood right, you said we enticed the victim to the car. I don’t know if it was understood how I explained it last time that he was taking us down to an auto mechanic place to change some auto parts in. So actually we were like hitching a ride with him.
I don’t know – is enticing the same thing?
PRESIDING MEMBER ROOS: Well, no, not exactly.
MR. ROBINSON: Well, let me put it to you this way: It begins for you, you’re waking up in the morning, right? If you could start at it from that point and just sort of discuss it. I know you discussed it so many times.
INMATE GROGAN: Well, that morning I was awakened by Charles Manson and still, you know, half asleep, told me to get to the car and handed me like a pipe wrench. Told me to hit Shorty in the back of the head as soon as
At that point
I still haven’t got over, you know, the emotional part. You know, so sometimes it’s kind of hard to, you know, overcome the atrocity that I did.
BOARD MEMBER TONG: Would you like some water?
INMATE GROGAN: Yeah, if I could.
PRESIDING MEMBER ROOS: So Charles Manson was in the back seat with you?
INMATE GROGAN: No. No one was in the back seat.
INMATE GROGAN: Thank you.
INMATE GROGAN: I was sitting behind the driver.
MR. ROBINSON: In the back seat.
INMATE GROGAN: Then we pulled off the road.
In the meantime, I was supposed to hit this guy in the back of the head. And like I never, you know, hit anybody or hurt anybody like that before, and it was hard, you know. I kept hesitating in my mind, you know, looking at the cars on the highway hoping maybe cause of traffic I wouldn’t have to hit him because it was just 10 feet off the lane.
MR. ROBINSON: Take your time.
INMATE GROGAN: Well, the blow stunned him but it didn’t knock him out. And he jumped to the passenger side of the seat. That was, the car door was already open and exited through there.
MR. ROBINSON: Steve, let me interrupt you. One of the things that was read in the statement was that the blow knocked him out of the vehicle. I remember that was discussed last year, and as you just said, he left the vehicle after being hit, right? He went out which side?
INMATE GROGAN: Right side.
MR. ROBINSON: The passenger side, all right.
INMATE GROGAN: The blow knocked him forward so he hit the steering wheel and surprised him and jumped out the side and I had to reach over the seat and get in the driver’s seat to stop the car, because the way it was parked there was an embankment, you know, like cul de sac ditch. And the car ran – drove into the ditch. So, meantime I’m jumping over the seat trying to put the brakes on, put the car in gear, stop the motor, he had already been stabbed.
PRESIDING MEMBER ROOS: Who did that?
INMATE GROGAN: I imagine
PRESIDING MEMBER ROOS: They were in a different car?
INMATE GROGAN: I actually didn’t even see a car drive up. I just noticed to my right he came up. He might have gone through some back trails and in time – he must have been in another car.
HEARING REPRESENTATIVE EPPERLY: Was it
INMATE GROGAN: Right. And I came upon the victim in a semi unconscious state. And I was handed a knife and told to stab him, and I stabbed him twice in the chest. And some others were told the same.
PRESIDING MEMBER ROOS: Did Manson stab him too?
INMATE GROGAN: I don’t know. He might have slashed him. I don’t recall if he stabbed him.
PRESIDING MEMBER ROOS: So you stabbed him and
INMATE GROGAN: I think Bruce might have stabbed him in the arm.
PRESIDING MEMBER ROOS: Then what happened?
INMATE GROGAN: Well, at that point, couple minutes after that he was dead and I was told to take him, drag him into some bushes that were further from the highway, cover him up till night, come back at night and bury him. And the others left so I came back at night and buried him.
PRESIDING MEMBER ROOS: You came back yourself and buried him? How deep was the grave?
INMATE GROGAN: It was pretty shallow. It was just enough to cover his body. But in reference to the deep grave, over the years it was seven years or eight years and there had been rainstorms and mud slides in that area. And I think that’s what – they had trouble finding him when I initially drew a map. I had to go down with them, escort, and show them the direct vicinity. I couldn’t even remember the exact spot because, you know, landscape had changed.
PRESIDING MEMBER ROOS: How about all this talk, it was groovy to kill him, and all that kind of business?
INMATE GROGAN: Well, I was told that if anybody was to ask what happened that those were the statements I was to give them in order to – at that point in time, at the ranch there was a lot of, seems like there was a little bit of dissention and philosophy that was promulgated there. There was always – fear or love would pull people together from breaking apart. And I think it was, you know, meant to understood that this statement would bring more fear to the people rather than just stab the guy the way we did.