Labyrinth 13 is a book available by Curt Rowlett at LuLu.com. The Col bought it upon its release in December because he read about it on Amazon under the review of another book called Sex and Rockets. The Col really liked Sex and Rockets. So he bought Labyrinth 13.
The Col enjoyed reading Labyrinth 13, but then the Col enjoys reading any book that questions reality and the status quo. The information on Jack Parsons was a repeat, and some of the points made about the Zodiac Killer were, umm, off the mark. But it wasn't a bad book. No, a bad book would be something by Adam GoRightly.
If you have a few dollars to spend, try the book. Here. It will make some good bedtime reading for you.
So anyway, Curt doesn't know that the Col read his book already. Hell, I was on his email newsletter reminding me to buy it. But he likes the Blog. Everyone likes the Blog except Oogly and Debra. And Curt wrote me an email.
Hello Col. Scott:
I am writing a book on the Manson case and am hoping that you might be able to assist me with some information.
I found a comment on a thread on your blog that mentions a possible gay relationship between Steven Parent and William Garretson that I found to be quite intriguing (see www.tatelabianca.blogspot.com/2006/01/
off-thread-upon-odd-thread.html)
Can you supply me with any more information about this? Maybe even some sources?
Also, would you have any objections to my mentioning your blog in my book? If not, I would be interested in learning a bit about your background as you seem to be very involved in researching the case.
I also wanted to let you know that I have just discovered your blog and have spent the last couple of days reading through most of the archives. You have some very interesting and well-thought out information there. I thought I knew a lot about the Manson case, but learned several new things since having been to your blog.
Thank you,
Curt Rowlett
Now, there are only two books the Col wants to read about this case- THE BUG, the unauthorized biography and The Manson Family Encyclopedia. The Col is too lazy to write either, so he hopes that is what Curt is writing. The Col DID want to read Tom O'Neill's book and Gypsy's book and Linda's book and so many others. But they don't come out and GoRightly's did. Life sucks. Hard.
So Curt, I don't know what you are writing but you can have my $15 now if you want it. I need to keep my shelves complete.
I don't know about a comment on a thread on my blog... did you read the whole blog? You need to research thoroughly in this case. No one but me does. There is a posting somewhere- google it- with a photo that reads "Homophobia is so Gay" In it we learn that two cops and Aaron Stovitz told me that Steve and Bill had a tryst. They investigated everything those cops. But don't take my word for it. Do your homework and read the police reports. They are on CM .com or Bret's site. Or buy it from Aesnihil like I did. William G was a "known homosexual" like they used to say. And Steve was experimenting I guess. Don't know. Doesn't really matter in the long run. It had nothing to do with being slaughtered.
Or I guess you could believe that a young boy from El Monte was visiting guest houses in Bel Air at midnight to sell clock radios to a virtual stranger.
I still believe Paul McCartney is gonna invite me to join the Beatles to replace John.
As for mentioning the Blog, no worries, please do. Just note that we are the only OFFICIAL TLB Blog on the worldwide web.
As for background, I am Col Scott, originally from the Ronson Board. co-opter of the name Harold False from an unmitigated douche bag who hates me, a disbarred attorney from Torrance California, a private investigator from New Rochelle or a little known film producer. I annoyed the piss out of the Yahoo RTV group as well as Linda Mann's board and later Mark Turner's first board. Ultimately I met my match with the Yahoo KTS housewives, who, after accusing me of horrible things, beat some sense into me and found internet friendship. I am mentioned in the closing chapter of that GoRightly book but please do not buy a copy. Like Charlie, everywhere and no where is my home. I adore Bobby and think he should be free. I hope SA and PK and TW never see daylight again, and do not think they ever will. I think CM made a deal with the devil to be famous and has to live with that deal. And, more that anything, I want to know WHAT HAPPENED that weekend in 1969 and WHY. The truth.
I am whoever you say I am. If I wasn't, then why would I say I am?
263 comments:
1 – 200 of 263 Newer› Newest»Perhaps you should seek out John Kaye, the author of "The Dead Circus" which includes some interesting twists on the Manson case.
My problem with the Turner board was that he allowed obvious trolls - someone would just repetitively post things like "Manson is so cool!" "I totally agree with Charlie's philosophy!", and ignore questions like what is Charlie's philosophy.
Satori there is a part of the manson case no one is investigating, it happened during the trial, there was a commune that was from chicago that moved to la called naturalism lsd rescue they were led by a man called dr george peters he had alot of girls in his group like the family, durning the trial there was a power move one of the guys tryed to oust george peters and take over, george wanted to take everyone and join sandy and squeaky merge with the family the other guy wanted all the girls himself, so he murdered dr peters, it was a big trial in la,the george peters murder case got a lot of press in the la times in 71
if u want to learn something about the manson case u dont know read about this case u will learn alot.
4sharon, I believe the Jesus remark was just a figure of speach, not meant to be taken literally. Sartori welcome and please let us know when the book comes out. I would be very interested in purchasing a copy.
Savage, I have very much enjoyed your comments lately.
I keep seeing mention of debra/paige's website. What is the url address so I can check it out?
Love your column/blog by the way!
If you can go by anything he says, Garretson said on his polygraph test that Parent arrived at the guesthouse at about 11:45, and he left just about 12:15... During that time (the whole whopping 30 minutes), Garretson said that Steve had a beer, unless he swigged it down in two gulps, I'll assume that took a few minutes.. Then he said Garretson plugged in the radio and showed him how it worked.. Then, Parent made a phone call..
So, during those 30 minutes, Steve arrived, they probably made small talk, he had a beer, demonstrated the clock radio and made a call..
I honestly don't see how there was a whole lot of time for a gay sex fest... Unless Steve arrived naked and they jumped right into it...
I've heard of quickies before but if I was either of them, I'd be insulted lol
You also have to remember that this is the story Garretson told for the polygraph test, and he passed...
Why couldn't Steve have gone there for the sole purpose of selling a radio?
Just because two guys just happen to each be bi sexual doesn't mean they had an interest in each other....
Just a thought
=)
He served two years in the California Youth Authority program. He was described as having both sadistic and homosexual tendencies by a probation officer.
I'm sure being in a California Youth Authority Program is enough to bring out the worst in anyone..
These is no record and no proof at all that Steve Parent was a homosexual. Garretson? I'm sure he was bi, but again.. It doesn't mean that they were hot for each other.
=)
I better clarify my last statement...
A probation officer saying you have homosexual tendencies does not make you a homosexual...
There, hope that is clearer...
=)
Some people assume that people in the Tate house stole the $5000.00 that Linda says she stole from her husband and gave to Manson to prove herself...
But it's only speculation.. Linda herself said she took the money from her husband and gave it to Gypsy, who in turn, gave it to Manson...
Tex (who seems to be more truthful than Susan) even supports this..
Tex has said that he had no idea who the people were in the Tate house. Tex admits to slicing these people up, only makes sense that he'd admit to knowing them if he did.. Why admit to killing someone buy deny knowing them?
=)
It's not Pam Anderson lol
What I think could have happened is, Manson probably was burned out of the $5000.00...
Linda testified for days, and she was grilled by Manson's attorney.. If she personally knew the victims, I think she would have said so...
I have no doubt that Manson knew Voyteck and probably Jay...
All the killers all tell the same story... Melchors house, kill whoever is there... No one has said "we were told to kill Voyteck and Jay".. Again, they all admit to their actions (well, except Susan) they all admit to breaking into the homes and butchering the victims.. Seems odd that they wouldn't mention knowing them...
Equally odd is that IF this was a drug burn (and I think it could have been) the killers didn't seek anything other than murder.. All they left with was Abigails measley $70.00.. Strange to kill 5 people for 70 bucks...
Manson told them to take all their money.. Jay had money in his wallet, not to mention his $1500.00 watch... They didn't ask Parent for his money...
So it seems to me that they weren't there for any other reason then just to kill them and leave... Even Manson when he returned, took nothing...
Murderers but not thieves... Strange...
Yup, I firmly believe he went back...
It's not just Sharon and Jays blood on the porch that makes me believe it...
Steve Parents car was wiped for prints so well, even his own were gone.. With all the screaming and shots fired, Tex and them did not take the time to wipe it down, especially that well..
The glasses were planted there, also wiped down of prints...
Neighbors reported loud arguing coming from the property around 4AM..
The blood though, does speak volumes....
You can't go by anything Manson says... He'll say anything if someones listening.. Ya have to look at the evidence...
I have heard it was either Brenda, Bruce Davis or Clem... I personally think it was Manson, Davis and Clem...
Tex has confirmed that Manson did go back, he just won't say who with...
Manson's "love", Stephanie also testified that Manson left late that night and didn't return until early the next morning..
Hmmmm, wonder where he went?
I have talked to a few people who live in the area and they've told me that Manson would have been able to tell if the crime scene had been discovered without even going up..
I guess from down below you have a clear shot of the property...
If no one was there an hour or two after Tex and them left, no one was going to discoved them until morning. So technically, Manson knew he was safe...
Yes, the blood on Sharon was smeared, indicating she'd been handled after her death...
I think they did hang her, least for a minute or two.. Her autopsy said she'd been hung after her death...
for what it is worth my research and conclusions jibe with Heaven's- Charlie DID go to the house after- the glasses were left behind for ages at the Ranch and he brought them to throw people off (and they did!). My research indicates that Clem and Davis attended. I believe Pittman/McCann was dancing in the nude at the ranch with CM when the killers returned and was sent away so he could quiz them. Having been to the house, I believe that Charlie and crew made a RIGHT directly opposite the private drive Cielo becomes leading up to the Tate house, a right that goes straight up culminating in the entrance to FALCON'S LAIR, Valentino's mansion. From midway up that road to the top at any point you can clearly see the back half of the Tate property. If there were not cops everywhere then it was safe to proceed. If there were, you turn around by Falcon's Lair, come down the road and turn RIGHT again and head to the Valley. Instead with no cops there they went STRAIGHT and up the private drive.
If anyone is keeping score on the gay front, factor in that the house owner and employer Rudi Altpbelli was an MAJOR queen (and still is) and was very out of the closet. Gay owner, gay (or bi) houseboy.
Also the Col has a LOT of gay friends. Most actually do not go in for casual anal. But a quick BJ is very much enjoyed by them. Thirty minutes is enough for a beer and a blow in my experience with women, at least when I was single.
Furthermore, I point out (and will someday in a more detailed post) that Steve was a thief of ELECTRONICS equipment who was allegedly peddling a clock radio. I know that Karen Mc Monty claimed he had just bought it, but again, when did YOU ever go into Best Buy and buy a VCR and visit a stranger with a VCR to sell? Did you make a profit?
My 2 cents? They met on Sunset earlier in the week (the evidence supports this) and fancied each other, two young, good looking gay boys. They talked about hooking up. Steve set up a late night booty call and brought some loot to show off and break the ice (was he going to accept a credit card if he did sell it?) They either did NOT fancy each other, or someone got a hummer and Steve, with over an hour drive ahead of him, decided to come back another time. He left and the poor guy got killed. MEANWHILE, William goes back and CRANKS some tunes and hears nothing (again a major Col Note- William NEVER thought that the screams he must have heard or the door handle moving were Steven? C'mon!)and is arrested the next day. NO WHERE do we learn what Rudi thought when William was accused. He doesn't bail him out. That is telling too.
The point in all this disucssion is not quite what Curt says (That Helter Skelter is flawed). HS is a fucking work of fiction where if it didn't fit BUG's reality he was thrown out. I have spent hours with Aaron Stovitz to learn things. BUG was gonna win no matter what he had to do. Charlie et all helped him. The point is, if the official version is provably illogical multiple times, we must distrust everything and re-prove it before we accept it.
Fact is Steven Parent, a poor innocent victim for certain, was NOT at the crime scene for reasons that (and here I vehemently disagree with Heaven) make logical sense in the human experience.
Just ask yourself when you last tried to sell a piece of electronics to an acquaintaince at midnight.
And if it makes no sense we must question it, posit other possibilities and see where it takes us.
Thanks for listening. U'm cold.
I've read that they hung Sharon upside down. Heaven, do you know where I and others can go to read Sharon's autopsy repot?
I agree that it would have come out through cross exam about any drug burn. And it would have been easier to prosecute on those grounds It's a provocative theory and more logical then to start a race war. And I agree that Manson and crew went back to crime scene.
I like the question asked about Melcher moving out so quickly. Does anyone have thoughts about this?
On Turner's board someone mentioned (when it was up) that Manson knew Folger. And that Sandy was part of the San Francisco High Society scene and possible the two women knew each other or of each other. Any imput on these ideas?
Thanks Monk for the infor. It's nice to see you back. Your comments have always been interesting. I live in San Diego and never knew Sandy was from here. All this time I thought she was from San Francisco.
Col,
Good post... You could be right about the BJ part.. That I won't dismiss.. It was the other parts that I questioned...
Dr. Dodo,
You can see Sharon's autopsy report through-out the web.. It states somewhere in it that she was hung (I hate the word hanged) sometime after her death.
When she and Gibby were in the living room, she wasn't actually hung, she was never suspended off the floor, she was more like being strangled.. Since she was alive at that point, the blood was still pumping and bruising and abrasions would be different then those she recieved post-mortum...
According to evidence, Sharon was seated in the couch, facing the fireplace when Tex began his dirty work on her.. Blood on the couch cushions supports this...
It's only natural that Manson would return.. He gave his orders and natural curosity would have him go there to make sure those orders were carried out..
He also told Tex to kill everyone on that street and take their money, but Tex didn't, for whatever reason..
I still find it very strange that no one took any of the drugs, money and expensive personal items that were laying around..
I don't think it's that strange that Steve Parent showed up with a clock radio at midnight. If someone like me had shown up with clock radio, now that would be strange. But this guy loved fiddling with electronics and his second job, which he worked at that night, was at an electronics store. He was a teenager - maybe being out and about late after his second job wasn't that unusual - and it was a Friday night. If he was there for sex, he sure didn't stay long and why even bring the clock along? And he plugged it in and set it to demonstrate that it worked. The time it was stopped at shows that - why bother?
As far as him being gay - he may have been, but he was only 18 and a lot about him seems pretty straight laced - if he was gay, he likely wasn't very out - maybe not even to himself. He certainly noticed the women in the house. "Who are those 2 girls in the house?!"; "You mean Polanski has a wife and a girlfriend?!"
I don't think Manson would have risked going back to the crime scene. He's too cagey of a criminal to do something like that.
Sharon appears in the position that Tex/Susan left her - I think it would have been hard to move her, try to hang her (upside down!?) and then put her back into a position like she was originally. I haven't actually ever tried to move a body (and don't ever want to be in such a position), but wouldn't rigor have been setting in at 4:00am? Would her body still have shown the lividity (along her left side from lying on the floor) it did if she had been moved around?
The smeared blood on Sharon - I think Susan may have done that, and/or that may have ocurred while she was being held and killed. I don't think Susan's been entirely honest about what she did in that house that night. She sure did seem entralled at the sight of Sharon's dead body. She tasted her blood and soaked some up to write on the door.
Where did Tex say that Charlie went back?
Savage - are the same Savage from a couple of weeks ago?? Dare I mention this, but you haven't use the "L" word in some time now.
A couple of things: John Kaye's "The Dead Circus" is indeed fiction, however it, along with its prequel of sorts, "Stars Screaming" are both very interesting and informative takes on life and the culture of Southern California in the time after WW II. (Think LA Confidential) I've heard that sometime in the future a third book will come out which I believe will focus on the late 80s and 90s. I believe they are insightful, and as for the Manson angle, intriguing as well...
Anyway, Kaye is a filmmaker as well. He has written American Hot Wax, Where the Buffalo Roam, and wrote and directed a movie with Patrick Swayze and Melanie Griffith which I can't recall the title. He grew up in LA and has lived the life, some of it tragically.
Of further note, it may be of interest that he acknowledges in one of his books his friend, the stepson of Van Johnson, who apparently lived in the Cielo guest house for a time, as one of his contributors. This guy is the brother of the woman who recently wrote that she lived at the bottom of Cielo Drive and saw the killers car there that night, thinking it was kids making out.
Finally, for satori: You and the Col are right, Helter Skelter cannot be allowed to be the definitive work on this case, and Bugliosi must be confronted! If he could have proved a drug burn, believe me he would have, but anyone who thinks those seven people were killed those nights because of the Beatles and a race war and all that is sadly mistaken. I wish you all Godspeed. in these endeavors.
Savage,
That all sounds good to me!
Well put Savage! I may have been hard on the kid too. Sorry about that.
Hey am I the only one who ever heard of the hanging upside down deal? I try not to make many comments, because I am new to discussing this subject. And I don't want to sound like a total idiot. Well, if at all possible LOL. If that was an erroneous comment, please let the Doc know. I swear I read that somewhere.
Deb,
Manson himself said he went back...
Sharon and Jays blood was in pools on the porch.. Not just drops, pools....
That is not the position Sharon died in.. Tex stabbed her 8 times in the back.. Hard to do if she was laying on it.. The way he tells it, Sharon fell to the floor face down.... Sharon was obviously moved, they're blood was in places they weren't...
Manson wasn't risking anything. He could tell if the scene had been discovered before he went anywhere near it...
=)
Salem,
I think it's pretty obvious that Manson set this whole scene up..
This was his baby, he just didn't have the nuts to do the dirty work..
If Manson's hands are as clean as you say, why'd he tie up the LaBianca's and tell Tex to kill them?
It was Brenda dancing naked with Manson when Tex and them returned.. That's a pretty well known fact...
Oh, and if that's not Susan's footprint in the blood, someones walking around with her fingerprints...
It matched her's..
Heaven
Does anyone honestly think that if Linda had any involvement in these murders other than being there, that Manson's lawyer would have made it known at the trial?
The girls were all trying to pin this on Linda, but no evidence ever came up to suggest Linda was involved in anyway. So I'd like to know how some people are so positive that it was Linda that got burned and not Manson... Where is the proof of this?
=)
Tex says he ran back and forth to Jay and Sharon, stabbing each of them, just to make sure they were dead...
You can tell just by looking at the pictures that Sharon had been moved.. For Susan to have caused all that smearing of blood on Sharon, the couch and the rug, she would have had to roll around with her..... The did their deeds and got the hell outta dodge.. With the screaming and shots fired, does anyone really think they stuck around any longer then they had to?
A lot of people don't believe Manson returned, and that's fine.. Believe what ya like. But the evidence says different...
=)
Think about how secluded the Tate house was.. Think about the late hour this all took place..
If the house and bodies hadn't been discovered by 3AM, who was going to find them before morning?
Manson had a clear shot of the property without even going there.. They parked way down the hill and walked to the house. Being as seculded as it was, if anyone came up, they could have easily slipped away unseen.. It was surrounded by trees, brush and other stuff.. Plenty of placed to slip into the dark and POOF, disappear..
Like I said, I have friends from that area and they tell me this was easy to pull off...
Tex has recently said on his website that Manson did go back..
Danny DeCarlo, Stephanie Schram, and Paul Watkins also tell the same exact story, and they're not accused of killing anyone...
It's not so hard to believe if you really think about it.... Manson actually thought by sending these kids to do his dirty work, then he wouldn't be punished if they got caught. That shows you the amount of common sense he had...
Besides, they weren't up there very long.. But long enough to fuck with an already fucked up crime scene.. He wanted to be sure Tex and them didn't do anything that could be traced back to Spahn...
I'm also curious as to how anyone can say that the bloody footprint was too small to match any of the girls that were there..
The print wasn't a whole foot, all it was was the toes and the ball of the foot, there was no heel..
So how you going to match up the size accurately without the whole print to go by?
Susan was the one who was barefoot because of the VD.. It caused sores on the bottom of her feet that broke open during the stuggle with VF.. She says she stepped in all the blood and had to wipe some of it off on the grass..
Savage,
It's anyones guess who went with Manson to the Tate house.. No one seems to wanna say who it was...
Manson said he had a few reasons to go back.. One was to see what they had done.. Another was to make sure the scene resembled the Hinman house so the cops would think someone other than Bobby killed Gary and they'd release him...
Manson obviously didn't realize that Bobby's prints were found in Gary's house and he was arrested driving Gary's car with the murder weapon in the trunk.. Manson lacked common sense...
He also said he wanted to create a scene that would make it look like a black/white retaliation crime.. But claims he didn't have the heart to carry it out..
He did admit to wiping away all the fingerprints, tucking the towel over Jays head and leaving the glasses...
Manson also placed himself in the LaBianca house.. Saying that he needed to show Tex how to do it right cause the Tate house was too messy..
How would Manson know how messy it was if he was never there?
Danny DeCarlo testified that on the night of August 8th, Tex, Manson and Clem disappeared and returned early the next morning.. Stephanie also said Manson left and returned around dawn.. DeCarlo asked Clem where they had been and Clem said "We got five piggies last night"...
From just the first few pages of Bugliosi's book, things become muddled. Mrs. Kott heard the four gunshots that killed SP. But then nothing else...Tim Ireland heard screams presumably from VF...and both those happened at thr right times as we know it, and Bugliosi wants us to know it. After that? Dogs barking at 3am? Shots fired at 4am? The security guy who calls in the shots he heard has the dispatcher say to him, "Hope we don't have a murder, we just had a woman screaming call come in from that area." What's up with that? How come no follow through? Perhaps there was, but Bugliosi doesn't tell us.
I had to read the first Tate Homicide report myself before I ever found out about the boy across the canyon who heard shouts and arguing from that area around 4am. What's up with that? Why didn't the Kotts hear anything either? Hmmm, maybe they should be asked again, along with Garrettson?
Anyway, the blood pools, the glasses, and the towel wrapped neatly and tightly tucked under the rope around JS head is what really has me believing that somebody went back there and tampered with the scene. If not CM, then who?
And again, if Bugliosi could have proved any of this stuff at the time, I think he would have, but because it would have been hard, perhaps he didn't want to muddy the waters any further. The defense had their own problems and probably had their hands full just dealing with what VB was throwing at them anyway, so there was never a need to put up a defense about something which they were never accused.
Oh, could it be an urban legend about the phone call from Spahn to Cielo that day, or the day before? Where is that proven exactly? See that is the kind of thing VB would have been all over and I've never seen that difinitively stated, other than in these notoriously unreliable web blogs (although I think we're closer to the truth at this one than any others).
I never heard of any of that... Doesn't mean there's no truth to it...
I know that Linda arrived at Spahn on July 4th 1969 after meeting Gypsy.. Linda had just come back from Mexico...
Anything is possible during those 30 days she was with the family..
But my point is, if Linda was directly involved with these murders in any way, shape, or form, it would have come out during the trial..
Everyone was trying to pin this all on Linda..
Manson's attorney grilled that girl for days on the stand and nothing ever surfaced about her having any involvement with anyone at the Tate house. If it existed, it would have come out. Linda was only with the family a short time before this all happened.
Even Tex said the $5000.00 that Linda stole from her husband was given to Gypsy who gave it to Manson.
But let's just say that she did know VF.. Why kill a pregnant woman who knew nothing of any of this? Why kill Steve? An innocent person who didn't even know these people.. Seems strange to take your anger for one person out on 6 others.
What the Leno and Rosemary have to do with any of it?
I personally don't believe that Tex, Susan, Patricia or Linda knew the victims.. All have said they didn't.. Like I asked before, they admitted to first degree murder but would deny knowing them? Odd don't ya think?
Here's my take...
Manson knew either Voyteck or Jay or even both.. I think the $5000.00 was in Manson's possession and something between all them went down...
Manson was involved with people that his followers knew nothing about... Manson came and left the ranch all the time, and no one knew where he was... Manson knew what was happening out in the world, but kept his followers ignorant..
I do believe there was a Helter Skelter role in this, but only as Manson's way of pulling the whole thing together. He used it to brainwash these kids... But I don't believe that's why the murders took place. Only as a means to get the kids to do his bidding..
So, I think that Tex, Susan, Patricia and Linda were there on the Helter Skelter theory, not knowing of any dealings between Manson and members of the house..
Police records showed a phone call was place to Cielo from Spahn the morning of the murders, but the killers deny knowing these people.. So who made the call? Manson perhaps?
It's all like trying to fit square pegs into a round hole.. Nothing adds up to make perfect sense...
I believe all the answers lie with Manson. He's the only person who knows why.. I also believe he'll take it to the grave with him...
Pristash,
You make very good points...
The shots and screams were checked out, but the sounds stopped and no one knew where they were coming from.. 10050 was very secluded, that's why Tex feels that house was chosen..
As for the phone call, it's in the police records...
As for Bugliosi.. I don't think he needed to bring in Manson returning to Cielo.. He had enough evidence against him..
Bugliosi didn't need to prove why Manson was involved, only that he was...
He had a ton of testimony from members of Manson's followers and he had Linda.. That pretty much sealed Manson's fate... No need to worry about Manson going back to the scene...
Bugliosi painted a fairytale, but with that fairytale, he got the convictions that were needed to put these people away.. So personally, I don't care if he used the boogyman defense.. The convictions were just... To me, that's the most important thing.. These dangerous people were no longer a threat to society...
In my opinion, this case was fucked the moment the police arrived on the scene.. You have idiot cops who walked all through the blood, tracking it inside the house.. You got an idiot collecting blood samples but skips over many of them because he "assumed" they all belonged to the same person... Then you have my all time favorite, the dumbass who saw the bloody print on the gate button, but pressed it anyway, erasing the print...
True geniuses at work...
Hi, Heaven,
Where are these police records about the phone call? And CM didn't show up at the ranch with his new love (returning from Esalen?) until later that day, correct?
Ithink you're correct as to Helter Skelter's role, and CM having things going with people no one else knew about. That's why I think the LaBianca's were a contract killing...
Manson's love do you mean Stephanie?
Manson arrived back at the ranch with her the morning of August 8th... But he had been there a few days earlier with her and left again...
As for the phone call, it's in the later police investigations report. It's not in the first police report...
Some people believe the Linda/Voyteck drug burn theory cause that's what Adam GoRightly said in his book..
Danny DeCarlo didn't want any part in testifying against these people.. But there were charges pending against him that would have put him in jail with Manson if he didn't co-operate...
His was not the only testimony Bugliosi used, Paul Wakins also testified.. Paul was just a horny teenager looking for sex.. He wasn't into murder and slaughter... So he proved to be a valuable witness... His story matched every other story told...
Bugliosi had everything he needed to get a conviction against Manson...
I know what White Rabbit said, he quoted Gorightlys book word for word.. "they burned her on her bread".. That's the exact same wording Gorightly used...
It's not Buglios that would have brought out Linda's involvement, if she had any... She was his baby, his ticket to convicting Manson...
Kanarek would have been the one to use it against Linda.. He found no evidence to use.. If the evidence existed, I have no doubt that Kanarek would have used it for all it was worth..
I'm not saying there wasn't a drug deal between Linda and Voyteck, I'm saying there's no proof to back it up... But there's plenty to back up Manson and Voyteck...
Voyteck and Jay were involved in some pretty serious dealings, and were known for ripping people off..
But even still, Manson, Tex or Linda wouldn't have known that Jay was there that night.. He wasn't supposed to be.. He had a girlfriend who he was in bed with most of the day.. It was just bad luck on his part that he was there...
Sharon had been home only two weeks, she had family and friends there all the time.. No mention of Manson or any drug dealings during that two weeks.. So who knew that Voyteck was still there? He and Gibby were all ready to move out the next morning...
Is that why the white van was parked outside Cielo for a few days? Was someone keeping tabs on who was there for Manson?
Hmmmm, lots to ponder...
What makes no sense to me is all of the killers deny knowing any of the victims...
Think about it.. You admit to slaughtering them, knowing it's a crime that'll send you to the gas chamber, but you deny you knew them, for any reason..
Susan was asked in jail if she knew the victims, she said no.. Tex to this day still says the house was chosen because it was secluded. That the crimes were done to get Bobby out of jail..
I honestly believe that these kids had no idea who these people were... VF words to Tex were "Who are you, what are you doing here?"
Tex replied with his Devil comment..
There was no "Tex, what are you doing here?" It was "Who are you?"
Also, like I said before, nothing was stolen.. Jay had Cocaine in his car, not taken... A $1500.oo watch on him, his wallet had plenty of cash in it. Not touched...
The theory is, they burned Linda out of $1000.00, but the thought to get that money back never occured to anyone? How is killing the person who owes you money going to get your money back?
They're still out the money, only now you have first degree murder charges to worry about...
Not trying to recoup the loss makes no sense to me.. Unless I'm right, the killers didn't know these people... But I'm betting Manson did...
But even Manson left empty handed...
Ok, where is it documented that Linda was raped by Voyteck?
Where are you getting this from?
Meant to also say, I have read everything there is to read on this case, every book, article, parole hearing, trial transcript, police records and killer websites. Not once in all my travels have I ever read where Voyteck raped Linda.. So, where did this come from? Where is the source of this information?
Ok, where is the proof of that? Without proof, it's speculation...
As is with most of this case. The only thing we can prove is that Tex, Susan, Patricia and Keslie killed 7 people..
=)
Like I asked before, if their target was only Voyteck, why'd they kill 6 other people?
Rosemary and Leno were in no way connected to any people living at the Tate house...
How'd they know Voyteck was still living there? If he was the intendede target, they had inside information that he was there. Manson hadn't been on the property since March.. Voyteck was set to move out the following morning..
So who was the spy? And where is the proof?
All I wanna know at this point is where is the proof that Linda and Voyteck were in a dope deal together and where is it documented that Voyteck raped Linda...
Him raping her is a new one to me...
=)
Savage,
You're avoiding my question hon...
Where is it documented that Voyteck raped Linda? What source did you get that from?
If it was Susan, I don't believe a single word of it..
If it's not Susan, where'd you come by it? I wanna read it for myself...
=)
Savage,
I'm sorry but I don't buy it...
If Linda personally knew VF then it would be documented, and it isn't.
Susan is the only person to have ever said anything about Linda and Voyteck having a drug deal together, and I don't believe nothing she says...
At the trial, Susan tried to pin this whole thing on Linda, but nothing ever became of it. There was no proof anywhere.
In trial transcripts, Susan was quoting linda, Susan is quoted as saying "You remember the thousand dollars I had? I told her yeah, and she said well, I went up to some people in Beverly Hills for some MDA... anyway, she went up thyere to buy something and they burnt her for her bread."
That is Susans exact quote during the trial.. She was trying to pin all this on Linda, probably because Manson told her too...
It was $5000.00 that Linda had, not $1000.00. Tex and Gypsy both said that money was turned over to Manson. As was all the valuables within the family.
Many many MANY books have been written about this case and the only person who has this theory, is Susan. So I don't buy it...
But you're free to believe what ever you like...
And Sandy Good? The one that worshipped Manson and believed him to be Jesus Christ for the last 37 years is, in your opinion, credible?
I suspect Savage heard these things from Susan, but isn't telling us because he knows no one believes a word she says...
If Linda had direct dealings with VF and was raped by him, it wouldn't be classified information. Kararek would have looked into it and it would have come out at the trial...
That's my opinion...
Savage said
if you look at the pieces that i've laid out, you'll see that this story begins to come together.
No hon, the story doesn't come together. All I see is a bullshit story that was told to you and you believe it...
This story will never "come together".. The ones who know the truth aren't here to tell us.. The ones that are left, wouldn't know the truth if it bit them in the ass. Especially Susan Atkins..
You all can say whatever you want too.. But I'd like to start seeing some proof of all this... Again, without it, it's all just speculation..
There are many many publications dedicated to this case, so please, start giving out your sources so the rest of us can read this for ourselves...
I'm not dismissing it, but I just like to read things for myself.. Opinions are great, but facts need to be backed up
=)
If this was Linda's deal, why was she hiding outside instead of inside getting her hands dirty?
If this was Linda's deal, what did the LaBianca's have to do with it?
If this was Linda's deal, why wasn't it brought out at the trial?
Lots of questions boys and girls...
=)
Savage,
Linda was only there for 30 measley days... In that time all she ever did was garbage runs and creepy crawls..
Are you saying she was so far into the inner circle that Manson was going set the wheels in motion for mass murder to defend her honor?
Manson handed his girls out to other men like candy, he even used them to attempt to lure more men into the group.. You honestly think he would have cared if Voyteck got a piece from her.. Assuming he did.
Protect her from what? There is no proof that Voyteck raped her. You can't porvide one piece of evidence that can back this up...
Again, Manson handed these girls out all the time.. IF Voyteck scored with her, I really don't think he'd care.. Remember, according to Manson, women have no souls.. The dogs were higher than the women..
I personally think you're giving him too much credit, but that's just me...
Agnostic Monk,
Excellent post...
It does sound like a fairytale... The Helter Skelter theory is more believable...
This whole Linda/Voyteck thing would not have been classified information. It would have come out and the media would have ran with it...
Linda was the best witness for the prosecution and the worst for the defense. Susan, Leslie and Patricia were trying to prove that this was all Linda's doing... Their lawyers would have ripped Linda apart. But nothing even remotely close ever surfaced...
Since some people claim that Susan knew Voyteck, why did she refer to him as "the big guy who pulled her hair"...
Tex said (I believe Tex before I believe Susan) that he didn't know these people. Even to this day, locked far away from the other members of the family, he still says he didn't know them...
He is telling the same story today that he told 37 years ago, unlike Susan..
Why wouldn't he admit it if he did? What are they going to do? Try him for knowing them?
Isn't it funny that Susan is the only one with all this inside information?
I think I'll go re-read Susan's most recent parole transcripts.. Wanna bet she still says that she didn't know why they were going to the Tate house? Although she swears she did know at the Grand Jury and she also swears she was telling the truth.
It's almost impossible to keep up with her changing story...
Now, if Patricia or Tex come forward with this Linda/Voyteck/rape/drug burn theory, I'm more apt to believe it...
But I'll still say there is no way Manson would set up the whole mass murder thing for a woman with no soul he only knew for 30 days...
Audio,
If you read Romans words about Voyteck all the way through, you'll know he said that because Voyteck was a mooch and a freeloader who ran over Sharon's dog... Basically, he was more trouble than he was worth.
Roman never implied it had anything to do with the people who killed Sharon... He was simply tired of Voyteck always hanging around..
Sharon was tired of him cause he was stoned more than he was sober and she had her baby to think about...
there is a part of the manson case no one is investigating, it happened during the trial, there was a commune that was from chicago that moved to la called naturalism lsd rescue they were led by a man called dr george peters he had alot of girls in his group like the family, durning the trial there was a power move one of the guys tryed to oust george peters and take over, george wanted to take everyone and join sandy and squeaky merge with the family the other guy wanted all the girls himself, so he murdered dr peters, it was a big trial in la,the george peters murder case got a lot of press in the la times in 71
if u want to learn something about the manson case u dont know read about this case u will learn alot. ya'all forgot a importent link dr george peters
Thats very true Monk,
If this was all because of Linda, she would have been inside with the other killers.. She was only sent away to listen for sounds because she didn't want to take part in the killings... I think she was originally sent to participate...
If this was all about defending Linda's honor, why the Hollywood hit list? With names that included Liz Taylor, Frank Sinatra, Tom Jones and Steve McQueen...
The brutal slaughter was not just applied to Voyteck.. He only got it worse cause he tried to get away... Abigail was hacked up pretty bad...
So if all the hatred and rage was only at Voyteck, why chop up everyone? Especially a pregnant woman?
Why not catch Voyteck alone and take your dealings out on only him?
I notice no one is answering me on why the LaBianca's were killed. If the Tate house was only because of Voyteck, whats the deal with them?
http://www.aboundinglove.org/sensational/sen-008.php
Watson speaks about the crimes, his involvement, the motive as he knew it, and Manson's orders..
It's an interesting read..
But no where in there does it say anything about Linda and Voyteck...
Audio,
I agree with you... With a new baby coming, who wants a drug dealer living in your house?
I think the whole rape thing is a crock, another one of Susan's bullshit stories.
Linda wasn't with the family long enough for anyone to give a shit about her.
The girls weren't tight with each other, there was a lot of jealousy and pettiness among them... Even Manson said at one point he got sick of listening to them bitch about each other...
Manson sent out those he believed were expendable to him.. Most of the other family members didn't like Susan cause she was always trying to be the boss..
Tex was not the right hand of Manson that everyone thinks he was. Bruce Davis was in charge of things when Manson was away...
Tex "owed" Manson for the whole Bernard Crowe deal. That was all the fault of Tex... Manson sent Tex out to repay the favor owed to him...
If Manson was going to send out his most loyal and faithful, he would have sent Lynette, Sandy, Bruce and Clem. They were more devoted to him... But they were not expendable...
I think Manson sent those he knew he could do without...
There are a lot of theories about the LaBianca's, but I think the true reasons lie with Manson. He's the only person who knows why they were killed...
Manson had sex with one of the children of Dennis Rice.. a mere child, younger than 10.. That's when Didi Landsbury split the ranch. She wasn't into child molesting...
Diane Lake was all of 13 when she joined the family.. Manson had sex with her too.. He was a pedophile, so I can't see going through all this just to defend the honor of a girl he barely knew...
Manson obviously had no morals, so why would he care if someone boned Linda?
That's true, Roman did accuse John Phillips of doing this. Roman figured he had motive cause he slept with John's wife...
Very far fetched...
Even if he didn't reconize Tex at first, he would have sobered up quick when he realized he was about to die..
The will to live is funny that way.
Agnostic,
I personally think Manson was a hypocrite..
He preached oneness, love of brother, die for your fellow brother.. But when the shit hit the fan, he dropped these kids like a bad habit.
He wanted the girls to accept all the blame so he wouldn't go back to prison.
Manson only had loyalty to himself.. To this day he still says he had nothing to do with any of it. That the kids acted on their own.. Leslie said she took offense to that.
If Manson had no involvement, why'd he tie up the LaBianca's?
Diane Lake was Snake lol
http://charliesfamily.tripod.com/snake.html
She's also the one that Manson beat on a regular basis...
35 year old man beating on a 13 year old girl and I'm supposed to believe that he gave a shit about Linda....
You missed my question, I asked why not wait and catch Voyteck alone? He was moving out the next morning. The next night Tex could have had just Voyteck and Gibby, if they were his targets...
Savage,
If you can't back any of this up it's not worth posting about...
I'm always happy to listen to the opinions of others. But it's another thing when opinions are trying to be passed off as facts...
Post a link or a book or any source we can all go to so we can read this for ourselves.
If you can't, you're starting to sound like a broken record...
Susan is not a source, she's a liar..
Everything known about this case has been written down somewhere.
Just because you "believe it to be true" doesn't make it so....
Facts need to be seen... Can you provide them?
Anything will work. A book, a parole transcript, a killers website.. Anything...
You have said in other posts that you "know Susan".. So I'm sorry to tell you but all this sounds like something Susan made up and you're buying...
That's fine if you are, it's your business. But I'd like to hear it from someone else before I believe it...
=)
Savage,
You've also avoided all the questions asked of you about this theory...
But I'll ask you again.. If this was all about Linda, why didn't Linda participate? Do you need time to ask Susan before you answer lol
=)
http://charliesfamily.tripod.com/gypsy.html
Gypsy had her son Phoenix on January 5, 1971; she has said that fellow Family ember Steven Grogan was the father. She bounced back from the birth just in time to perjure former friend Kasabian on the witness stand, saying that Linda was the orchestrator of the Tate murders and not her beloved Charlie. In a 1994 interview with prosecutor Bugliosi, Share said that she had only said what fellow cult members told her to say after dragging her behind a truck as a threat.
So, if Linda was behind all of it, why would the need to force people into saying so?
Your story doesn't jive...
No Savage, it doesn't explain anything.. You're twising things to fit the story you want to believe..
You can't explain why Linda wasn't in the Tate house with the others.
You can't explain why the LaBianca's were killed...
You can't explain why none of this came out at the trial. It was brought up by the girls in order to protect Manson, but was dismissed by the defense attorneys, you can't explain it...
You can't explain why Manson had sex with a 13 year old child that he used to beat up on a regular basis. One who'd been with Manson for a couple years, but masterminded mass murder to protect a girl he only knew a month.
You can't explain why Voyteck would wanna screw dirty, smelly, VD infested girls when he had Abigail and plenty of other better looking women at his disposal..
All you can keep saying is why Tex did what he did.. Tex himself has already explained this, hundreds of times and not once did he ever say it had anything to do with Linda...
You're not explaining anything...
Savage,
Think about what IS known....
It's known that Manson had a fascination with death, not his own of course...
Remember how it was said that he pulled up behind a car at a stop light and was going to kill the driver but the light changed before he could... He even got out of the car with a gun in his hand...
How bout how he went to a church and said he was going to kill the priest.... What he really did was get out to take a piss. But he told his "followers" he was going to kill the priest.
His wanting to kill Salindar Nader had nothing to do with him screwing Linda.. He just liked the thought of killing people...
If he really wanted Salindar Nader dead, he would have found a way to do it... Ifv I recall the story correctly, Linda led Manson to the wrong door on purpose...
You're really twisting the hell outta things lol
Like I said before, Manson handing his "girls" out like candy. Why should he care who they were screwing...
Linda was pregnant when she arrived at the ranch. Why didn't Manson have her kill her husband? He touched her didn't he?
When linda saw voytek stumbling out and said "Im so sorry" .... what does that tell you?
It tells me that Manson sent out the wrong person.. If I saw someone being slaughtered right before my eyes I'd tell them I was sorry too. Sorry that this was even happening to them...
Like I said before Savage, you're free to believe whatever you like..
The more I read your posts, the more I'm convinced that you're twisting things to fit your story...
If Voyteck was the only one killed, then I'd probably buy into your theory... But he wasn't...
One thing I do find kinda funny in your ramblings is how "close" you think everyone was in the family...
Manson loved Linda so deeply that when she disappeared after the LaBianca killings, he wanted her brought to "now" if and when she returned..
I believe Manson's version of being brought to "now" is when you're being killed...
So he charished her so deeply that he not only masterminded mass murder to defend her honor, but he wanted her killed if she returned...
Yeah, they were all deeply close LOL
Manson preached to these kids (so he says) that hye didn't own them, they owned themselves. So why would Manson care who Linda screwed?
Didn't he pimp out his girls and send them out topless dancing? You make him out to be their knight and shining armor... Manson didn't care about anyone but himself...
You can believe Sandy, that's your business. But not all of us here are as gullible...
No offense...
=)
Well said Monk!!
Opinions are not facts...
=)
Savage,
If Sandy is your "source", then you should go back and talk to her again...
I'm told that she has met a new guy, no longer runs Manson's website and no longer supports Manson.. So maybe her story has changed now...
Col Scott is good at getting to the bottom of things.. Maybe he can ask Bobby about this whole Linda/Voyteck thing... Maybe Bobby knows something.. Maybe not...
I also know of someone in KTS who has visited with Tex... I'll ask him to talk to Tex and see if there's any truth to all of this...
It's really kinda funny. In have followed this case since 1985 and this is the first I have ever heard about Voyteck raping Linda lol
Like Voyteck needed to rape anyone... Wasn't it the free love generation? Everyone boned everyone.. Who needed rape?
The family was all loaded with VD... Just because headlines weren't made with Linda suffering from it doesn't mean she didn't have it... Susan was loaded with it...
there is a part of the manson case no one is investigating, it happened during the trial, there was a commune that was from chicago that moved to la called naturalism lsd rescue they were led by a man called dr george peters he had alot of girls in his group like the family, durning the trial there was a power move one of the guys tryed to oust george peters and take over, george wanted to take everyone and join sandy and squeaky merge with the family the other guy wanted all the girls himself, so he murdered dr peters, it was a big trial in la,the george peters murder case got a lot of press in the la times in 71
if u want to learn something about the manson case u dont know read about this case u will learn alot.
http://www.charliemanson.com/documents/testimony-kasabian-4.htm
Sounds to me like Manson just liked killing and death. That it had nothing to do with Linda... He just wanted to watch people die...
Juan Flynn testified that Manson bragged about 35 deaths... Some of these were before Linda even came into the picture...
Juan was a ranch hand who wasn't part of the family inner circle... Manson told him once to go down to the waterfall and make love with whichever girl he chose...
Again, Manson handed these girls out like they were candy...
I read in Manson's book where he complained about having so many girls to satisfy that he needed more guys around to help him out...
It's not just you Monk... His story doesn't jive...
Satori,
I believe it was a drug burn between Manson and Voyteck and possibly Jay... That's my personal take on things...
I don't believe Tex or Linda were involved in any drug deal there...
Again, Tex still to this day says he didn't know the victims.. I would think after 37 years, he'd fess up if he did...
Susan and Patricia also say they didn't know any of the victims... Linda has never said she knew the victims...
So, you have 4 people who were there and deny knowing the victims, and you have Savage, who wasn't there but will tell you they all knew the victims....
Hmmmm, who do you believe? lol
Monk,
I think if Tex knew about a burn between Voyteck and Linda, he would have said so...
Linda testified against Tex, so why not spill it at the trial to save his own ass?
Again, another trial and nothing about this drug burn theory....
I'm inclined to believe it only existed in the minds of Manson's supporters...
What no one here is mentioning is huge Canadian MDA drug deal that Voyteck and Jay were involved in...
These were brought to Cielo by Tom Harrigan from Totonto...
Now, Harrigan was buddies with Pic Dawson. Pic Dawson was friendly with Manson.... Also in the picture was Billy Doyle... Also in the know with Manson...
The story gets tricky...
Pic at one time dated Mama Cass, who was also aquainted with Manson...
Pic moved into the house that Gibby and Voyteck shared on Woodstock Drive while Gibby and Voyteck stayed at Cielo... Another person by the name of Witold K was also living there (with Pic), he was a polish friend of Voyteck...
At some point, there was an argument between Pic and Witold, and Pic tried to strangle him...
This pissed Voyteck off.. And he kicked Pic (no rhyme intended) out of his house...
According to witnesses, Pic swore that he was going to kill Voyteck...
John and Michelle Phillips felt that Pic, Billy and possible a few others were the ones involved with the Tate murders... They even went to the police with their suspicions...
After the murders, Pic turned over a video tape to the police... Filmed at 10050 Cielo Drive while the Polanski's were away in Europe... The tape featured Abigail, Voyteck and Wiltold and an unidentified young lady...
In the film, Abigail appeared tired and older than she did in other pictures, Voyteck was stoned out of his mind... It appeared as though Gibby and Voyeck were "tiffing"... Voyteck began speaking polish to exclude Gibby... Gibby began responding to Voyteck with insults.. Voyteck called her "Lady Folger".... Gibby talked about Voyteck in the 3rd person... Making comments about how he came down off his drugs by getting drunk... Basically, the video was simply running but not capturing anything important...
Manson said that if the true story about the murders were ever known, there would be a scandle that Hollywood had never seen.... Manson also said that an $11,000 drug burn was involved and a millionaire friend of Manson's was implicated...
So, if you think about it.... Manson knew people that knew Voyteck.... Voyteck knew people that knew Manson... People knew both Manson and Voyteck...
There was this circle of people involved in this Canadian MDA deal that involved people who were associated with Manson...
This could be where the whole drug burn lies.... Having absolutely nothing to do with Linda...
The above story is clearly documented in several sources....
http://www.charliemanson.com/documents/tate-report-2-14.htm
http://www.charliemanson.com/news-archive/news-1969-08-29.htm
Notice here they mention the Canadian men.. They were Tom Harrigan and Billy Doyle..
Here's another
http://www.charliemanson.com/documents/tate-report-2-08.htm
Now, in my opinion, this all makes better sense than the Linda theory...
All the names mentioned above were friendly with Charles Manson...
How do we know that Manson wasn't in on this very large MDA deal?
We don't....
Here's another
http://www.earcandymag.com/bookreviews8-05.htm
Also, the father of her child, Owen is finally revealed...only not by name. Described as "an attractive blond session musician who'd been playing with the group", it probably wouldn't take too much detective work to find out just who the father was. Then there is the Manson connection. Cass was questioned thoroughly for the case, because of her relationship with Pic Dawson and Billy Doyle - who were initially suspects in the case. Plus, Manson and his crew had been frequent visitors to Cass' house to take advantage of her hospitality - just not to the degree that Manson took advantage of Dennis Wilson, fleecing him of around $100,000.
Satori,
I'd be happy too...
The books include
Shadow Over Santa Susana
The Family
Sharon Tate And The Manson Murders
Those are just the ones I've skimmed in the last 30 minutes, there's probably more. I have all the books on the case, but I don't have time to check all of them..
I have posted website in other posts...
Charles Manson was a frequent guest at the home of Mama Cass, we all know that... Pic Dawson, Billy Doyle, and Voyteck were also there a lot.....
Makes ya wonder doesn't it?
I think they were all in on a deal together. A deal that Voyteck burned them on...
Savage,
I think I provided enough info to show that Manson had reason to kill Voyteck without any involvement from Linda..
Your whole point is Voyteck burned Linda... Linda was not part of the Canadian deal involving Pic, Voyteck and Billy...
Pic and Billy were also involved with Manson...
Not one person involved in any of that mentions Linda...
When I said I think they were all involved, that didn't include Linda...
Heaven,
Bravo on your informative posts!
Again, if you wanna go by Manson... He says the whole thing was planned by Tex.. Tex chose the house, Tex chose to murder these people... It was ALL on Tex....
Savage,
If your theory is true, why would Manson lay the blame on Tex and not Linda?
I also notice that in his book, Manson makes no mention of ever being at the home of Mama Cass. But we all know he was....
Satori,
It doesn't state that Billy was Canadian, so I'd have to assume he wasn't
=)
Thank you Dr Dodopariti
=)
Satori,
I'm sorry, Yes, Billy Doyle was Canadian...
I'm getting tired now lol
Yes, Billy was from Toronto Canada..
He was a part of the large MDA ring that also involved Ben Carruthers and Tom Harrigan.. There were several people involved in this deal..
They were also involved with bringing large amounts of Cocaine into Los Angeles... They were seeking Hollywood connections, which brought them to Cass Elliot....
The plot thickens lol
Heaven,
Your welcome. You are one of my favorites commentators. You seem to be well read on this subject.
Awwww thank you Dr....
I just try to follow the evidence and use common sense...
Most of the facts are well documented, you just have to dig and put the pieces together...
This whole Linda/deal/rape is more of a fairytale than the Helter Skelter theory...
Manson was involved in a lot that his followers knew nothing about... That includes Sandy... To Manson, she was a woman, had no soul and was lower than the dogs...
I wonder though, if Savage was to ask her now if her Linda story would still be the same....
I have no doubt what so ever that Manson was involved in that Canadian MDA deal...
My only question is, how involved was Jay? I know that he and Voyteck were in this together. But it appears to me that Voyteck was the intended target...
Which brings me back to the LaBianca's... Why were they killed?
They weren't connected to any of the Tate victims...
That's the biggest part of this whole story that makes no sense to me...
Savage wants us to believe that 5 people were slaughtered because of Voyteck raping Linda... So are we to also believe that Rosemary and Leno were also to blame for the actions of Voyteck?
Savage mentioned Sandy... Sandy was a very pretty girl, she still is... But I wonder if Savage asked Sandy about Manson bringing back a dead bird, flying a school bus and magically re-attaching his penis after Bo bit it off?
Monk,
This was as close to an answer as I think you're going to get..
Savage said...
The very people who went to the Tate house were all close to Linda and wanted to take care of business. This explains why Linda stayed outside and said what she said when Voytek came stumbling out.
So, these people loved Linda so much that they were willing to risk the gas chamber to even HER score with Voyteck?
I may be blonde, but I'm not dumb... That makes no sense at all.
Satori,
That could very well be true..
But it does seriously take away from Savage's theory about this all being because of Linda...
In my opinion, if it was just about Linda, with Voyteck dead, the murders would have stopped..
According to legend, Barbara Rosenberg, "Bo", bit off Manson's PP during a fellatio session...
Some members claim that Manson magically re-attached his wounded PP...
There is no logical explanation that Savage can give about Linda staying outside, and keeping with his theory...
Linda was not raped by Voyeck, Linda was not involved in any drug deal with him...
The sources are probably Manson supporters, who, after 37 years haven't faced the fact that the man with super natural powers, cannot disolve prison walls...
Savage,
Don't misunderstand me.. I respect you and I think you're very intelligent. But like the Susan thread, I think you and I will once again, have to agree to disagree.. My mind just won't let me wrap around this whole theory because there is no evidence to support it.
PS.. Please forgive my typos.. I spilled soda on my keyboard this morning and now it sticks lol
=)
shorsendz,
Excellent post...
I agree with almost everything you said except for two points...
Knowing the victims isn't going to change the fate of the killers. They won't be re-tried for knowing them...
Tex will never get out and he knows it.. He even refused one of his last parole hearings, declaring himself unsuitable for parole.. I firmly believe if he knew the victims, he'd say so...
Second...
Manson not returning/returning to Cielo is a matter of opinion... There is plenty of evidence to prove that he did..
While maybe you or I wouldn't do it, Manson had to be sure there was nothing there that could be traced back to Spahn.. That's why Steve's car was wiped so well, even his fingerprints were gone...
Manson cared very much about cops snooping around Spahn... They had weapons, stolen cars, drugs and underaged girls.. Manson was on parole. All these were no no's that would put him right back in jail...
Other than that, I agree with ya...
=)
there is a part of the manson case no one is investigating, it happened during the trial, there was a commune that was from chicago that moved to la called naturalism lsd rescue they were led by a man called dr george peters he had alot of girls in his group like the family, durning the trial there was a power move one of the guys tryed to oust george peters and take over, george wanted to take everyone and join sandy and squeaky merge with the family the other guy wanted all the girls himself, so he murdered dr peters, it was a big trial in la,the george peters murder case got a lot of press in the la times in 71
if u want to learn something about the manson case u dont know read about this case u will learn alot
Audio,
I've heard about this little black book too.. According to Alice (Leno's ex wife) she found it in the home as she was cleaning up from the murders.. She handed it over to the police and it was never seen or heard about again...
So, I'd love to know more about that...
You're not nosey lol I'm happy to tell ya...
I became acquainted with this case in 1985, I was channel surfing (back when we had 8 channels to choose from) and I happened upon the Helter Skelter TV mini series from the 70's...
It caught my attention because I had found all the newspaper articles in my parents attic.. So I knew of the case before, but had kinda forgotten about it...
So I began watching the movie... I was totally fascinated by it...
How this one little midget who was nothing to look at got all these people to do his bidding had me very curious..
But this was back before the internet... So, I watched the documentaries and TV specials as they came out...
IE.. Geraldo, Diane Sawyer... Really interesting stuff...
I put it out of my head until a few years later when I got the internet... I started reading every website, parole hearing and book I could lay my hands on... Even the ones that barely mention the case...
Tada, that's how I got my knowledge....
I'm no expert on the case, but I know enough to be dangerous lol
=)
Who knows why the police didn't investigate a lot of things...
Folks wonder why Bugliosi didn't use Manson going back to Cielo against him.. Bugliosi also didn't go after Manson on the drugs, weapons, stolen cars, sex with minors or any of the million violations to his parole...
The cops didn't start piecing it all together until Susan started running her mouth...
By then, they didn't need the phone call to prove there was a connection between Spahn and Cielo.. They had someone confessing to everything...
=)
there is a part of the manson case no one is investigating, it happened during the trial, there was a commune that was from chicago that moved to la called naturalism lsd rescue they were led by a man called dr george peters he had alot of girls in his group like the family, durning the trial there was a power move one of the guys tryed to oust george peters and take over, george wanted to take everyone and join sandy and squeaky merge with the family the other guy wanted all the girls himself, so he murdered dr peters, it was a big trial in la,the george peters murder case got a lot of press in the la times in 71
if u want to learn something about the manson case u dont know read about this case u will learn alot
I don't suspect Roman of any of this... Like Audio said, he had an alibi..
He was also very distraught over these murders and was desperate to find the killers. Even offering the $25,000 reward.
Roman was a pervert, but he was also a victim here...
Gary,
I know that Manson wasn't there for the Tate/Labianca murders.. My point was, he seemed fascinated with death. For those two days, he wanted someone to kill, didn't really matter who.. Anyone would do...
=)
Savage,
No offense but I wouldn't want you on any jury that had to decide my fate..
Everything you're saying is based on hearsay and not on facts...
You're twisting what someone has told you to fit a scenario you want to mold, based on pure hearsay, and ignoring the facts...
The facts are very clear and well documented. Manson knew a lot of people that his followers knew nothing about. Manson was involved in many deals that his followers knew nothing about...
The "source" of your Linda/rape/drug burn is still, after 37 years, trying to exonerate Manson..
There is no evidence or proof or any documented record of any such involvement. But yet you're still clinging to it..
That's fine if that's what you personally chose to believe.. But I for one am following the facts...
So please, don't ever sit on a jury for anyone.. lol
=)
One thing I forgot to mention last night...
There is a very real possibility that Manson personally knew Abigail Folger.. They both attented Esalen Institute...
Abigail also gave money to Kenneth Anger, who was a member of the Process Church, where Manson was also a member..
In the early summer of 1969, Abigail spent a weekend at the Esalen Institute, Charles Manson was also there.
Who is Kenneth Anger you ask? He's a film maker who once did a movie called Lucifer Rising, that starred Bobby Beausoleil and Catherine Share AKA Gypsy..
It is also rumored that Abigail gave money to Manson, but stopped. But like I said, that's a rumor..
It is also known that when Manson lived in San Francisco, Folger loaned $10,000 to the Straight Theater at Haight and Cole Streets.
Manson then lived on Cole Street, on the same block as the Process Church......
Ahhhh, what a twisted tale!
No they haven't, I don't know why...
I do know that Abigail's mother is into her 90's and still recieves mail that blames Abigail for the crimes.
Savage,
Question for ya....
If you believe your theory to be true, then I'm wondering why the defense attorneys rested without calling a single witness to back up the It-Was-All-Done-For-Linda theory?
I'm rather curious...
=)
I have no idea... But she get's threatening letters all the time...
Can you see the logic behind threatening a 90+ year old woman who's daughter has been dead almost 40 years?
What would be the point?
Salem,
No, we're not supposed to believe Tex (unless we choose too).. I personally find him more believable than Susan, but I don't believe every word he says..
It's the evidence I believe, not the killers.
My point in them not taking anything was obviously greatly missed. My point was, there were drugs and cash laid out in plain sight, no one touched them. Odd.
Sanda Good has preached the gospel of Charles Manson for the last 37 years. Until recently when she met a new guy, stopped working on the site and is said to no longer follow Manson.. She believed him to be all the things he claimed he was.. Which was Jesus Christ and the Devil, all rolled into one. Listen to her speak and you'll hear it yourself.
Taken from the ATWA site that Sandy used to run
This website is dedicated to Charles Manson - an attempt to lift the shrowd of lies and betrayals that have plagued Mr. Manson for over 30 years.
Who are we?
We are a small group of loyalists who are deeply saddened by the unholy betrayers of Mr. Manson.
Charles Manson is one of the last remaining true and honest children of the 60's. One by one, his fellow "children" have turned on him and left him to rot , a voiceless, tormented spirit - crushed by the establishment.
To gaze up at him is to see the face of God himself, to stare down at him - to see the devil, but to stare directly in his eyes is to see your very own face -
THE CHOICE IS YOURS
http://www.atwa.info/
You're right, Tex was in charge.. The others were told to go with him and do as he said. That put him in charge..
Linda's baby? To sit in the bushes weeping... To split a couple days later and leave her daughter with murderers? Yeah, it was her baby, it's so obvious... NOT!
You need to check your facts Salem, the ATWA website is no longer being maintained
It's a brand new site run by completely different people...
The old ATWA board has not been taken down. I just posted the link, go look.
Here is the new site...
http://www.mansondirect.com/
Manson felt he was geting too much attention and asked for it to be taken down? Good one.. Instead, the old one remains and a new one is started.
There is no record and no proof that Manson fathered Sandys baby.. Again, more speculation.
The only family member known to give birth to Manson's child was Mary Brunner.
http://www.charliemanson.com/good-2.htm
Bare in mind his interview was in 1990
Manson has completely turned his back on what few children he did father and he openly admits he wants nothing to do with them..
His first son killed himself and he's refused to see the child he had with Mary..
It is widely believed that Joel Pugh fathered Sandra's child. There's talk that they were married, but she denies they were.
From what I understand, Manson didn't have sex with Sandy and Lynette much.. I believe (and I could be wrong so I'd have to check) they they've each said they only had sex with him twice in the 2 years they were with him..
Susan says he only had sex with her about 7 times. In the big scheme of things.. having sex 7 times in two years, isn't very much, by anyones standards.
Sandy says the two times were early into meeting Manson.. She came to the family in April 1968 and gave birth to her son in 1969...
She gave birth to him in a hospital BTW.. Which was unheard of in "the family"..
there is a part of the manson case no one is investigating, it happened during the trial, there was a commune that was from chicago that moved to la called naturalism lsd rescue they were led by a man called dr george peters he had alot of girls in his group like the family, durning the trial there was a power move one of the guys tryed to oust george peters and take over, george wanted to take everyone and join sandy and squeaky merge with the family the other guy wanted all the girls himself, so he murdered dr peters, it was a big trial in la,the george peters murder case got a lot of press in the la times in 71
if u want to learn something about the manson case u dont know read about this case u will learn alot. ya'all forgot a importent link dr george peters
Savage,
No one is asking for your source.. You're free to believe whatever you wish.. If it all makes sense to you, great...
I have thought about it and no, it doesn't fit.. To YOU it fits...
You've changed your story now a couple of times. First you said this was all because of a drug burn between VF and Linda.. Then you changed and said it was because VF raped Linda... Now you're saying that that isn't what you're saying... It's getting harder to keep up with you..
Again, unless you can back up these theories, it's pure guessing and opinions...
----------------------------------
Salem,
I'm going to tell you the same think I've told Savage, believe whatever you wish...
Everything I've said is all documented, very easy for others here to go look up and read for themselves. What you two are saying cannot be backed up. Therefore, it makes it speculation and not fact..
Start providing some proof and them we can go from there...
"Sandy told me this, Sandy told me that..." Sandy believed Manson flew a school bus and brought dead birds back to life, need I say more?
Every girl in the family wanted Manson to father her baby.. I want to own a Ferrari.. Wishing doesn't make it so..
You're now putting words in mouth, I never said Sandy was crazy, misled maybe, but not crazy. I think she's actually a very bright and pretty woman.. Even now she's still a very beautiful lady..
I think it's wonderful that you've spoken to the family.. But next time you're looking for conversation from former Manson followers try to pick one that isn't hoping to exonerate him. Try to pick one who's no longer following his every word...
Bet cha you'll get a different version of things...
Anyone can sit here and say they've talked to members of the Manson Family... But that doesn't mean they really did... I've been on he web now for a great number of years and the more I continue to log on, the more bullshit I hear..
I guess you could say that unless people can provide proof, I've stopped believing in it..
It's nothing personal against you...
=)
You cut off a lot of my post on that one Salem, I said that Manson sent out those that were expendable...
Bruce must have been pretty important to Manson.. Bruce was in charge when Manson was away.. Not Tex...
Maybe, and I have no idea cause I'm not Manson, he didn't want anything to happen to Bruce. Breaking into people's houses can be risky. You don't know what the people inside might greet you with.
But I have no idea why Manson chose who he chose.. And I'm not going to make up stories to pretend I do...
All I can do is assume Manson sent Tex because Tex owed Manson from the Crowe burn.. Manson assumed Crowe was dead.. Must have been quite a shock to Manson to see a dead man testify against him....
But I can't tell you with any facts cause only Manson knows why he did what he did..
And with that, I'll end my time on this thread..
There is no point debating hearsay...
Have a good day everyone..
=)
OOPS!!
I forgot one last point I wanted to make which is, the odds were greater that George Spahn fathered Sandra's baby... She and Lynette were the two main girls who serviced him...
Not saying he was the father, I'm just saying the odds are better with him rather than Manson..
=)
Audio,
Yes, you are correct.. Helter Skelter is documented, but I think most of us agree that it was a fairytale..
The things that Savage is saying.. IE, Voyteck rapng Linda is hearsay. He heard it from someone who heard it from someone.. Nothing to back it up..
I personally think the reason Col Scott created this blog was to discuss the facts.. So that's why I'm here.. To discuss facts...
Ok, now don't suck me back in lol
"I know but I can't say"...
Seems we're hearing a lot of that in here...
UGH..
I can't believe that I have to spell out every little detail...
Salem, Michael Brunner was NOT Manson's first child..
He was Manson's second child. Manson had a child with his first wife. I believe her name was Rosealie.. The childs name was Charles Manson JR...
I do take back the suicide part, CM jr was killed in 1971.. He pulled a knife on someone and they shot him with a 12 guage..
Salam,
If George Spahn could fuck, he could father a kid.. Unless he was "fixed" which I don't know if he was...
Men can father children well into old age..
I never said he WAS the father.. You're not reading, you're waiting to speak...
Gary,
I understand what you're saying, and I do agree that Savage is entitled to his opinion..
But, to keep chanting the rape thing gets fustrating when you're trying to have a discussion with someone.. That person can't seem to get beyond it and it's the sole purpose for their debate...
But, like I said, I really don't have anything left to offer this discussion.. I've added everything I had...
I love a good debate, you know that.. But you can't debate anything when the other side won't listen...
=)
Yup,
So I'm agreeing to disagree...
I'm kinda getting tired of all this typing anyway lol
Hey, where you been lately anyway, I've missed you on KTS
=)
Savage,
I like you, you're a nice person, so my disagreeing has nothing to do on how I feel about you as a person. I just wanted you to know that..
For both you and Salem,
I do not doubt at all that the murders were because of a drug deal, to that I agree 100%.. I also agree that they involved Voyteck..
What I disagree wih is it involving Linda.. I also disagree about Voyteck raping Linda..
Otherwise I agree with you both..
Also, about Sandy.. I have absolutely no idea whether or not she's severed her ties with Manson.. Like you, I hear things too.
It was told to members of KTS a week or so ago that Sandy met a new guy and no longer is interested in Manson.. I personally don't follow Sandy, so I don't know if it's true, nor do I really care.
If it's not true, that's fine too. Makes no diffrence to me.
But who fathered her baby has no bearing on the murders. So that too, doesn't really matter to me.. I don't care if it was Manson or Greorge or whoever...
I also agree that not everything is documented.. My point was, if Voyteck had raped Linda, that would be noted somewhere. That's not a minor detail.. It's a huge deal...
Hope this make sense...
=)
there is a part of the manson case no one is investigating, it happened during the trial, there was a commune that was from chicago that moved to la called naturalism lsd rescue they were led by a man called dr george peters he had alot of girls in his group like the family, durning the trial there was a power move one of the guys tryed to oust george peters and take over, george wanted to take everyone and join sandy and squeaky merge with the family the other guy wanted all the girls himself, so he murdered dr peters, it was a big trial in la,the george peters murder case got a lot of press in the la times in 71
if u want to learn something about the manson case u dont know read about this case u will learn alot. ya'all forgot a importent link dr george peters
Listen, for those of you who think Tex's word is gospel, don't believe it. He's a psychopath and still is to this day.
I think that goes without saying lol
I don't believe a lot of what he says, but I believe him more than I believe Susan.. I believe Patricia more than Tex...
Actually, if I could sit down and talk to one of he killers, it would be Patricia...
Salem,
I think I've cleared up any misunderstanding in one of my last posts...
=)
My opinion is just as I stated earlier about Billy Doyle and Pic Dawson..
Manson aassociated with the same circles they did.. IE Cass Elliot..
Cass Elliot also lived across the street from the Woodstock house that Gibby and Voyteck shared. So I think that it goes without saying that Manson and Voyteck knew one another...
I think that Manson was involved in the Canadian MDA deal.. And I think Voyteck burned him in some way.. I don't believe Tex was involved in any of it.. I think this was strickly Manson's deal...
Voyteck was burning people and he was getting quite a few enemies. I think one of them was Manson..
So, in my worthless opinion, I think the burn we all agree took place, was between Manson and Voyteck.. I suspect Jay was part of it too, I just don't know how deep...
As for the LaBianca's, I'm at a bit of an impass.. On one hand they look random.. But there's talk of this little black book...
I personaly would like to see some theories on the Labianca murders, since tose are the ones that have more people scratching their heads...
It's interesting to note that Bugliosi's book doesn't mention Billy Doyle or Pic Dawson...
OOPS! Gary, I'm sorry, I read your question wrong.. I thought you asked me my opinion on the murders in general.. I didn't see the LaBianca part at first...
I think I'm still a bit frazzled from teaching my teenage daughter to drive lol
Anyway...
I'm not 100% on what to make of their murders.. I mentioned the little black book... I know Alice Labianca turned it over to the police and apparently it was never seen again...
Does anyone know what was in this book? I heard it was gambling debts and stuff, but does anyone know more...?
I can't believe they were picked at random, even though that's how it looks to those that haven't followed the case... Maybe that's how Manson wanted them to look...
60skid,
Be warned, it's long winded and very boring.. A lot of what Ed talks about is the dune buggie riding...
But, along the way, there is some useful information... Just stick with it to the end, but keep some coffee handy lol
=)
Yes, That was a good book..
My favorite book (and I'm sure others will disagree) is Shadow Over Santa Suzana.. The reason I like that one is because it was very interesting.. I have adult ADD and it held my attention from beginning to end..
=)
LOL Audion, I always say my opinion is worthless lol
I agree, Voyteck didn't deserve what he got.. BUT, you have to be careful when you go around putting the screws to people.. Especially when it involves drugs and money...
I'm just sorry that 6 other people had to pay for whatever mistakes he made...
Sharon and Steve were both completely innocent in all of this...
I often wonder though, what would have happened had no one been home when Tex and them arrived that night... Was there a plan B?
Mine too Gary...
I'd like to get to the bottom of those murders, if at all possible..
I also wanna see this elusive little black book...
=)
Salem,
I do have a couple questions for ya...
Do you believe that Voyteck raped Linda? If your answer is yes, can you tell us why?
Have you ever tried contacting Catherine Share, Ruth ann Morehouse or Diane Lake, or Stephanie Schram or any of the key members who have said that they have completely renounced Manson and don't want anything to do with him?
I've heard for quite a while now that Gypsy is writing a book.. Anyone know anything about when it'll ever be published?
=)
What was Terry so afraid of ?
Manson....
Dennis Wilson also stayed as far away from Manson as he could....
Word has it that Dennis Wilson knew the true motives behind the killings and was going to write a book about it... But died before he could...
It's also been said that Wilson drowned in 12 feet of water with a nasty, unexplained gash on his forehead...
Another interesting point...
Ed Sanders says that he was working on na follow up to his book, The Family, when his life was threatened...
When questioned about the motive, Sanders said "Ask Peter Folger"... Abigails father....
Ya know, a person could go batty trying to keep up with all the twists and turns of this case....
I agree with you there Savage...
It's very possible to drown in 12 feet of water, but where'd he get the gash on his head?
Did someone help him to his death or was it an accident??
Audio,
It's strange that Manson would or did took out his fustrations on people other than the ones who wronged him...
According to Bugliosi, Manson was pissed at Melcher, so he butchered the people at the Tate house to send him a message...
Maybe this is why the case was never investigated very well. Not enough people on the force to keep track of it all lol
Good question Savage...
I really never thought about Dennis catching VD... But, if the girls came to him loaded with it, and we know he was having sex with some of them, he had to have caught it..
I find it wild that Dennis gave his gold records to Charlie.. Can you imagine what those would be worth today?
Salem,
Don't bet on it....
When you answered me earlier about Manson's first child, you instantly mentioned Michael Brunner..
I don't know you, so how am I supposed to know what you are aware of and what you aren't?
There is no need to be rude.
Savage,
I betcha it's worth a pretty penny too!
=)
60skid,
I dunno if I'd say that Bugliosi was looking for fame.. I don't know the man personally, but I know if I was in his position, I'd be nervous and overwhelmed when this case was handed to me...
I think the fame just came with the territory and he said, screw it, and went with it...
When I first read Helter Skelter I was pretty new to this case, but that was ages ago..
Contrary to Salem, I'm not an uneducated fool who knows nothing about this case, not by a long shot..
So when I first read Helter Skelter, I admit, the notion was far out, but hey, he got convictions.. So I didn't care what his theories were... After I read more stuff and did my own talking to people involved, I learned so much more...
He did get the fame and the money.. But this case was a money maker from the word go.. He wasn't the only one to cash in...
=)
Monk,
I can't help but agree with you too...
Sandy is a very pretty girl, but she was always a little over the top....
She was still talking long after people stopped listening...
It's also to my understanding that she was sending death threats to Mae Brussell....
I find it completely irrelevant to the murders as to who fathered her son..
But that's just me...
But I am curious about this new rumor going around.. That Sandy has found a new man and no longer has anything to do with Manson...
Here is what was told to us regarding Sandra Good parting ways with Manson...
I'm leaving out the name of the person who told us to protect their privacy... I have emailed that person and asked them where they got this information and that it's being discussed here.. If they choose to come here and share it with us, that's up to them...
Anyway, this is what was told to us...
The latest that I heard of Sandra good is that she has parted ways
with Charlie. She and George took down the website and she moved
from California. I was told that there was a new man in her life and
she has left the cause forever.
all im saying is the link tieing this all together is dr george peters
u just to conectthe dots
george peters is your missing link,
Nellie,
Where can we find information about George Peters?
If there's another spin on things, I'd love to read it
The only person I know of associated with Manson named Peters was Frank Peters, the guy who taught Charlie about pimping...
=)
Thank you Cats...
I'm scratching my head wondering how this fits in with Manson....
If he was killed in 1982, Manson and company were lockied up....
=)
I gutta start proofreading lol
Salem hon,
I know you did.. I realized that after I posted...
Was my bad, I apologize...
Sometimes I read too quickly and I miss things...
=)
Dianne said she was 13 when she met up with Manson at some Hog Farm Commune in Southern California...
But 13/14, to me there is no big difference when Manson was 35 years old...
=)
Satori,
The girls didn't testify.. They gave very brief statements at the penalty phase.. I guess it as so the jury could see if they had any remorse...
She did testify at the Grand Jury, is that what you wanna see?
=)
I'll see if I can find it for ya... I know some of it is in the Helter Skelter book...
=)
I did find this...
It should keep you busy while I look lol
http://www.2violent.com/drug-burn.html
This is everything from thne trial, but there is a TON of reading to get through...
http://online.ceb.com/CalCases/CA3/61CA3d102.htm
If it exists online, it's buried in there somewhere
=)
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