WHAT DO WE REALLY KNOW ABOUT THE FAMILY AND 10050?
1- Charlie did come visiting before the Tates moved in.
2- Charlie did come at least once AFTER the Tates moved in. Hatomi the photographer confirms this.
3- Bug and Watkins both claim that Charlie knew that Melcher and Bergen had moved out... but I don't trust anything either of them say.
4- Watson NOW says Charlie was up there the day before the killings. I don't believe this.
5- Rudi Altobelli, a show business agent owned the house. For all you homophobes out there who jumped up my ass when I supposedly outed Parent, Altobelli was and is as gay as gay can be. It doesn't matter, except when examining Garrettson and Parent's reasons for being at the house.
6- Sharon was not supposed to be staying there the night she was killed. Her car was in the shop and not in the driveway that night.
7- The girls did visit and swim in the pool back when Terry lived there.
8- I believe Charlie did visit later that night AFTER the murder with Bruce and Clem and Nancy.
9- If the Family DID have ties to Voytek it is a bit too coincidental for my liking that he just happened to be staying at that house.
10- IF (and a big IF) Charlie did tell Tex to kill everyone up there, I find it impossible to believe they MISSED the caretaker.
Here is what I am missing and if I can find this then every piece of the jigsaw snaps into place... what is the connection between VOYTEK and MELCHER?
There is NO DOUBT in my mind that Charlie believed Terry still lived there. Think about it? He had visited this amazing house (the Col went a dozen times before the tear down)- do you think Terry commented to the wannabe musician "I am just renting?" Even if there were different "pigs" there when he visited, why would he think Terry did NOT own it? And if one of those pigs was a drug dealer who had wronged him or a member of the Family..... kaboom, TLB starts.
But I must admit- though I do believe there is a connection I have not found it.
I just don't believe in coincidences... why THAT house? Sharon was NOT the target (indeed, they probably now wish she was never there, since her death insures their eternal infamy). The fact that it was at a house that they had all been to before.... no, there is a link. There has to be.
351 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 351 of 351Heaven
60skid said...
Heaven , You boyfriends back
5:29 PM
Ya know.. I got a really hot computer virus with your name on it lol
Well he always seem sto want to see you LOL
Maybe it's you he's after....
=)
Guess who can play Savages Thing in the Movie Madonna perfect fit for her
heaven
You can have him I think he X me out Thank You God
I dunno, I think Nancy Wolfe was always the best choice...
She had the Susan look down perfect.. Crazy look in her eye, evil personality, uncaring, unfeeling... Just like the real Susan...
Heaven
dunno, I think Nancy Wolfe was always the best choice...
She had the Susan look down perfect.. Crazy look in her eye, evil personality, uncaring, unfeeling... Just like the real Susan...
Yes but Madonna has the same trampie look
60skid said...
heaven
You can have him I think he X me out Thank You God
5:37 PM
Naw, I'm married so I'm not that desperate...
Susan can keep him....
heaven
60skid said...
heaven
You can have him I think he X me out Thank You God
5:37 PM
Naw, I'm married so I'm not that desperate...
Susan can keep him....
I agree let SUSAN have him
Madonna (although she's a stuck up bitch now with a fake accent) has way too much class to play a bottom feeder like Susan...
Let's see, who else is there?
Courtney Cox maybe, she's got that "doorknob" look about her....
Monk That is true Bobby B was the pretty boy
Courtney Love rather LOL
Evita Peron as Sadie? Oh, bad idea. Don't Cry For Me, ZeeZoe Zadfrack!
I doubt even Madonna would touch that with a five-foot Pole.
Its werid if I were a actor which I could never be. I would would play Manson over The Thing
60'skid Susan Atkins wishes she was the same caliber tramp as Madonna.
Sadie is more like the scum that hovers around the shower drain in Madonna's bathroom.
But you need an imbred hillbilly to play Susan...
Here's the perfect Susan lol
Sadie is more like the scum that hovers around the shower drain in Madonna's bathroom.
LOL!!!!
nightMonk.
60'skid Susan Atkins wishes she was the same caliber tramp as Madonna.
Sadie is more like the scum that hovers around the shower drain in Madonna's bathroom.
Your right The Thing is a scum imbred hillbilly
Heaven ,
What no discreet delete yet
Give him time.. The night is still young...
=)
Give him time.. The night is still young...
That is true
Heaven check your email new Blog
He rates Susan as a 9
Yes he is right 9 murders she did
Well, it just proves he's got a thing for really ugly chicks...
It happens.. It's like you see this really great looking guy and he's dating this butt ugly woman... Same thing..
Maybe old whores turns him on..
Poor Leslie though.. So used and tossed aside lol
I was thinking maybe we should write to Leslie and see about this visiter she has ..and tell her how he is using her ..what do you think Heaven
Hmm, I dunno.. She is a murderer, do we really care if she's being used?
Hmm, I dunno.. She is a murderer, do we really care if she's being used
No me Miss I never stabbed anyone until they were dead LOL
You don't expect her to be truthful do ya?
=)
Heaven You don't expect her to be truthful do ya?
No I do not ..she is up for parole this year so I am sure a new show this year
Hey Col,
If you're watchin in here I've been meaning to ask you.. Is Rudi Altobelli still alive?
=)
60skid,
I never worry about her getting out.. I really don't think that'll ever happen...
If she had such a good shot of being paroled, they would have done it already....
=)
60skid,
I never worry about her getting out.. I really don't think that'll ever happen...
If she had such a good shot of being paroled, they would have done it already....
That is true..they may get out when they are so old it does not matter anymore. I do hope Bobby gets out..I use to think he should not ..but since reading this blog .I feel he should get out
Yeah, I think Bobby has served enough time......
=)
Heaven
Do you know if Rudi Altobelli real name is Rudi ? I am tring to look on the ss death index I was wondering about him myself
I think so but I'm not positive...
Nothing On The SS death index for that name
Hmmmm... Maybe the Col will know
=)
Hey Dr.Dodopariti, I see a snipe comin on lol
=)
So I guess we are done with our little attack for the night
I'm always done with it....
=)
Me too I am a little sick of it my self
Well alrighty then lol
I'm headed out anyway.. You have a good night!
=)
Heaven
Dr
Hey Dr.Dodopariti, I see a snipe comin on lol
say something Heaven needs her snipe
Good Night Heaven
OOO it's 397, I dunno if I can let that snipe just pass by
400!!!
Snipe!!
=)
WOOHOO!!
I'm the snipe champion of the universe LOL
It's the little things ya know lol
=)
Night hon...
Damn! I just missed it, all because I needed some good food. Damn you evil Heaven (ya know I'm kidding) I'll get you next time my pretty!!!!!
shopgirl
He has a new one
Hey 60's kid, what's that address so I can post and delete?
Dr
Hey 60's kid, what's that address so I can post and delete?
Very Good one Dr
Just go up to his name and click on it and you will see it.
That is why he has not deleted yet so we can see his new blog
Okay, I know I shouldnt have so I will say sorry in advance, but I could'nt help myself. Here are the ramblings of an insane man from his blog that only he is the only one allowed to post on. Tell me does Savage sound mental and obsessed?
"Savage RDDB-DA said...
You can say whatever you want to about Susan, but I think she's got style and class and she's far more attractive and desirable to me than any Valley Doll.
10:39 PM
Savage RDDB-DA said...
This portrait of Susan is one that i feel highlights her beauty, grace and charm.
She's intelligent, witty, charming, sexy and she's real ..... not cosmetically manufactured.
Susan reminds me a little bit of Grace Slick; the female vocalist from the music group "Jefferson Airplane".
Both have the ability to capture a man's attention and both are very attractive and very sexy.
10:20 PM
Savage RDDB-DA said...
In this man's honest opinion, Susan has a fantastic set of legs.
Her beauty is all naturual and isn't cosmetically constructed like some small time, low budget actresses we know about.
10:08 PM
Savage RDDB-DA said...
Another photo of Susan wearing another chic 60's style dress.
She makes looking very beautiful so easy. Definetly one hot chick!!
9:57 PM
Savage RDDB-DA said...
Susan is definetly one of the prettiest hippie girls that i've ever seen.
That's a dynamite outfit and she doesn't have to get all dolled up with makeup and other phoney beauty products to make herself look hot, unlike some wannabe actresses that we've heard about.
9:50 PM
Savage RDDB-DA said...
In my opinion, Susan Atkins was much prettier than Sharon Tate.
On a scale of 1 to 10, i would rate Susan as a "9".
On a scale of 1 to 10, i would
rate Sharon as a "7".
8:23 PM
Savage RDDB-DA said...
This is one of the trial photos that was taken while the family girls were standing vigil outside of the Hall of Justice in Los Angeles.
8:09 PM
Savage RDDB-DA said...
This is a nice picture of Susan and i have to admit that she is still just as lovely looking as ever.
Susan, in my opinion, was the most attractive of the women that once comprised the Manson group.
6:03 PM"
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Savage RDDB-DA said...
dr dodopariti said:
>Tell me does Savage sound mental and obsessed? <
Anyone with an opposing view sounds mental to you. You do the same crap here on this board but instead of Susan, it's sharon, so don't start getting pissy with me because i don't bow down and worship Sharon, who on her best day, was a low budget mediocre actress.
You may think Sharon was pretty but i don't think she was as pretty as Susan .... but that's one man's opinion.
I make NO APOLOGIES to ANYONE.
I think that you're the one that's mental for worshiping a dead woman as if she just won the academy award the previous night. She was a lousy actress and the fact that there is NO STAR on the hollywood walk of fame proves to me that the hollywood media moguls didn't think much of her movies either.
If i have to come here and read Sharon 24/7 ... don't bitch to me if you get the same on my blog, only about Susan.
Look who's calling who Mental.
You're a jerk Pariti, I know it's hard to accept but it's understandable. You're lack of intelligence is painful.
Good luck to you.
9:15 PM
Savage, I never stated that I worshiped anyone. Unlike yourself, an insane man, who is the worshiper of a homicidal maniac who murdered multiple people. As far as the intelligence remark, my only response will be, do ya feel better little fella?
Mirror
Savage RDDB-DA said...
Dr Dodopariti said:
>Unlike yourself, an insane man, who is the worshiper of a homicidal maniac who murdered multiple people. As far as the intelligence remark, my only response will be, do ya feel better little fella? <
Who did Susan kill? Tex and Pat did the killing.
You're typical of 36 years of disinformation about this case. You take the books and the TV movies as Gospel when it is known that the whole Helter Skelter angle was BS and the whole drug burn angle completely ignored. The victims themselves were involved with "ILLEGAL" drugs and were connected to these people yet that never gets any mention. That's not justice .... it's a COVERUP.
If you're trying to sell me on the big Bugliosi lie, it won't fly.
My blog is NOT open to the public as it is only a pictorial tribute to a woman whom i look upon as a political prisoner. She's a human being and she's no less beautiful in my eyes than Sharon is to yours.
Tell me which is worse Pariti, Insanity or Ignorance. Just because someone doesn't share your thought patterns or beliefs, you immediate label that person as an outcast.
I think the law has a very broad interpretation when it comes to charging people with murder, especially in the State of California, whose legal system is the joke of the free world.
Free your mind pariti and then you just might get a picture of what the real world is like.
10:04 PM
Savage,
You would be the best to tell us what it's like to be insane and ignorant. Do regal us with you personal insight, man on the spot, what does it feel like Savage?
And, before I go, unlike you my mind, you know the one that you tell me to free, it's not for sale. And if it was, I have more respect for myself then to give it away for free to some nonsense an insane woman spouts. In this case it would be an insane man (ie. you).
That's all Savage, good night and good luck with your beliefs.
Audio that was my post. I am aware of the history of The Weathermen and other revolutionary groups of the time, and I still contend that they were in the minority when it came to truly violent action. Most hippies weren't planning bombings. If they were, a lot more destruction would have reigned all over the country for a lot longer.
I by no means was meaning to defend the hippie movement as being above reproach or without hypocrisy, however.
The Manson Family credo was somewhat adopted by the counter-culturists of the era but were pretty quickly spat up. Of those who adopted them in the beginning, many originally thought it was all a set-up by The Man to discredit hippies entirely.
Sandra Good doing interviews 20 years later still supporting the killers speaks for itself.
oh and my original statement was that "most hippies and radicals weren't KILLING".
Most weren't.
Audio, I wasn't trying to debate you about hippies. I have no horse in that race.
But I thought most of them grew up to be Yuppies anyway, LOL.
:)
Dr.Dodopariti said...
Damn! I just missed it, all because I needed some good food. Damn you evil Heaven (ya know I'm kidding) I'll get you next time my pretty!!!!!
LOL well consider it my Birthday present lol
Savage said
"I think that you're the one that's mental for worshiping a dead woman as if she just won the academy award the previous night."
There is a difference between honor and worship. Look it up and learn the difference. Unless the words are too big for you.
"She was a lousy actress"
Susan's a lousy human being, so it works out evenly.
"If i have to come here and read Sharon 24/7 ... don't bitch to me if you get the same on my blog, only about Susan."
Then why don't you stay on your blog? You X'ed this one out remember.. Get a spine and stand behind your words.
"Look who's calling who Mental."
Anyone who's in love with convicted murderer who'll never see the light of day IS mental"
"You're a jerk Pariti,"
And you're an asshole so again, it works out evenly.
"You're lack of intelligence is painful."
You're lack of a dick is also painful
If you're getting laid, I feel bad for the sheep.
"Who did Susan kill?"
Gary, Sharon are the two she not only admitted to killing, but bragged about it. Why should anyone believe her now?
"You're typical of 36 years of disinformation about this case."
You were the one who was just recently quoting a very bad movie and using it as the gospel.
"She's a human being"
No she isn't, she's evil and demented, ugly and disgusting. If that's turns you on, that's your problem.
"Tell me which is worse Pariti, Insanity or Ignorance"
You suffer from both
"Just because someone doesn't share your thought patterns or beliefs, you immediate label that person as an outcast."
If someone doesn't share your belief, you send them threatening emails.
"Free your mind pariti and then you just might get a picture of what the real world is like."
You should just stick to raping chickens and leave the thinking to those more qualified.
Oh and Savage dear,
Sharon wasn't "cosmetically constructed".. her body was all natural...
The only thing she did was color her hair, I believe Susan also colors hers.. The difference is, Sharon didn't need the state of California to pay for it.
With every post you make, here and on your "tribute" blog, you sound more and more hysterical. I do believe you're psychotic, which would explain your attraction to Susan.. Birds of a feather ya know.
You attempt to glamorize Susan and convince us that she's some poor innocent little girl. To further your attempt, you have to mock and disgrace a dead women.
Sharon may not have been the greatest actress in the world, but at least she didn't live like a disgusting pig. She also didn't have globs of green shit oozing out of her crotch.
Sharon was actually making something of her life while Susan could only destroy life.
Sharon ate with a knife and fork, while Susan pawed through dumpsters hoping to find some tomatoes that weren't squashed.
What Sharon had, that Susan never will, was style and class, a beauty that's well respected through-out the world. No one gives a shit about Susan.
Go look around the web and see how many "tribute" sites you'll find on the inbred hillbilly, then go see how many are dedicated to Sharon.
The more you rant and rave about how wonderful Susan is, the more you convince me that she's still just a caged animal, deserving of all the grief and heartache she's brought on to herself.
Your heart is the only one that bleeds for Susan.
So, if this blog offends you, why do you keep coming back? You obviously like reading what we say about Susan or you wouldn't subject yourself to it. You're never going to convince anyone that Susan is changed. We're not blind, we can tell she's changed her story umpteen times.
You're a sad, pathetic little person who is obviously very lonely. I feel sorry for you.
Lots of hippies were just stoned out kids looking for easy times and easy sex...SDS was political, but it was ironic that they were for a democratic society while they lived in a democratic society...it just wasn't doin it for them...so some of them grew into the Weather Underground named after the line from Dylan....and they were decidedly political in a Marxist-Leninist sense...wanting political and economic reform, redistribution of wealth, etc....and they were into violence but all never agreed on what degree. Some thought it ok to kill people, others didn't but thought it ok to bomb buildings, facilities...symbols of the oppressors. The idea here being that us fat cats sitting around here in the States had to be touched by some of the horror and terror that the poor people of Southeast Asia were facing everyday from our military just so we could remain fat cats. And one of their biggest explosions, which happened in lower Manhattan was an accident which succeeded in killing some of their own...Finally, a third group, just called Weather emerged, and this group for the most part renounced violent acts against any people in particular...they targeted banks and such things and tried not to actually hurt anyone in the process, but , of course, there is always the possibility of collatoral damage....
And don't forget the SLA! I'm reading Patty Hearst's book now...very interesting...
My point, and I do have one, is that there indeed were some certifiable revolutionaries out there who believed what they believed...Abbie Hoffman's and others of his ilk and their feelings about Manson early on (as later were renounced) were indicative of their revolutionary zeal.
I really Think we will have to stop reading and posting about Savage..I know he does this to get us all upset.
I know How I feel about Sharon ..I could care less what Savage thinks about it.I also know how I feel about "The Thing" that murdered her.
So if he as any more to say to me .He can send me email.He knows my address very well. He has sent me lots of email with threats..then deletes the address ..he sent it from.
Savage said
"I've always noticed that you take great pleasure in singling out Susan all by herself. You never drop any of the blame on Tex or Pat. It's always Susan in your mind, but then of course, that's because you link her to Sharon Tate. What Tex did to Sharon was never in question so why is it that you don't go after him with the same vengence that you do Susan?"
I blame them equally.. No one is any better or worse than the other..
But we're not in here saying how wonderful, sexy and beautiful Tex is... It's Susan you keep thrusting in our faces....
I think they're all trash, equally...
"If you want to reduce the Col's blog down to a lame name calling contest, that's your problem but i'm not going to sink to that level. This blog is supposed to be about TLB .... not personal infighting and bickering."
They why haven't you stopped ramming Susan down our throats?
You seem to enjoy discussing her...
"If you don't like Susan, that's fine, but don't expect me to feel sorry just for Sharon when there were others that died as well who don't get much mention because it's not going to happen."
I've never asked you to respect anyone. I just think it's a little pathetic to mock and belittle a woman who can't defend herself.
"I'm not going to trade insults with you heaven because arguing with an emotionally unstable and irrational woman is counterproductive and illogical."
I think you like trading insults with me.. You keep coming back for more...
"If Tex Watson can have a full blown website to peddle his views, then my tiny little blog page which i put up as a memorial to Susan isn't inappropriate."
No one gives a shit... No one is stopping you...
"Susan was young woman that came from a broken home"
Quick, someone call her a waaaaa-bu-lance.. The poor little baby...
"Don't be so quick to judge others without having judged yourself first."
The day you stop judging Linda is the day I'll stop judging Susan...
Susan- Sucks
Yes I did point it out last night. I was not on here the 2nd time he came last night.
But after thinking about it last night .I thought why get all up set about him every day.
Audio
Abbie Hoffman supposedly killed himself because he suffered from manic depression.
Abbie had manic depression ..I did not know that
mirror
Savage RDDB-DA said...
heaven said:
>You're a sad, pathetic little person who is obviously very lonely. I feel sorry for you. <
Look who's talking. An emotionally disturbed and irrational woman who has to make up lies about emails because she is so paranoid and insecure in her own life. You belong in a straight jacket honey and even then i'm not sure that we have the right kind of medication to reduce the amount of hatred in that thick head of yours.
I've always noticed that you take great pleasure in singling out Susan all by herself. You never drop any of the blame on Tex or Pat. It's always Susan in your mind, but then of course, that's because you link her to Sharon Tate. What Tex did to Sharon was never in question so why is it that you don't go after him with the same vengence that you do Susan?
If you want to reduce the Col's blog down to a lame name calling contest, that's your problem but i'm not going to sink to that level. This blog is supposed to be about TLB .... not personal infighting and bickering.
I could give a rats ass about what you think of me. At the end of the day i take home a hell of a lot more than you do and that's all that matters to me. That's life. That's reality.
I don't like the common notion that Bugliosi painted that labels Susan as the sole killer of Sharon Tate. Tex is responsible for her death, not Susan. People don't think. They just believe what they're told and i find that disturbing.
If you don't like Susan, that's fine, but don't expect me to feel sorry just for Sharon when there were others that died as well who don't get much mention because it's not going to happen. The way they use her name to portray this case is DISGRACEFUL. There were other people that died too and their lives were NO LESS VALUABLE than the movie stars life and yet you only hear there names after having first heard the name of Sharon Tate.
It's funny how you don't see one single webpage that honors the memory of Rosemary or Leno LaBianca but yet Sharon Tate is all over the place on message boards and blogs and other media vehicles. Where is there a page for Gary Hinman or Voyteck Frykowski or Abigail folger or Steven Parent? That's what i find disturbing. It's as if their deaths don't mean anything because they're not a media celebrity like Sharon was. That part of it sickens me. It's pandering to the rich and famous and devaluing human life.
I'm not going to trade insults with you heaven because arguing with an emotionally unstable and irrational woman is counterproductive and illogical.
If Tex Watson can have a full blown website to peddle his views, then my tiny little blog page which i put up as a memorial to Susan isn't inappropriate.
Susan was young woman that came from a broken home whose innocense was stolen from her by a man who was very well seasoned in unlocking people's minds and implanting his own philosophies.
Both her mind and her life had been stolen from her and the end result of that is all in the record. It's a human tragedy that nobody should have to experience.
Don't be so quick to judge others without having judged yourself first.
8:11 AM
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mSavage RDDB-DA said...
Heaven Said:
>They why haven't you stopped ramming Susan down our throats?
You seem to enjoy discussing her...<
I can say the same about you in terms of Sharon. You shop her as beautiful and decent and then come back at Susan calling her "The Thing".
Heaven Said:
>I've never asked you to respect anyone. I just think it's a little pathetic to mock and belittle a woman who can't defend herself.<
Susan can't defend herself either. She's been locked away in prison for the last 36 years.
Heaven Said:
>I think you like trading insults with me.. You keep coming back for more...<
No, it's just that you defend Sharon with the same tenacity in which i defend Susan.
I never justified what Susan did. It was Stupid, Senseless and it was Wrong and she knows it. People aren't perfect. We're all flawed in our own way and we do things in life we regret. In Susan's case, she was involved in something that resulted in the loss of life and, as a result of those actions, she was locked away after having been found guilty in a court of law.
Sharon's death was the most tragic of all. It's a sad, horrible story as I believe in my own heart that she was good woman who wasn't involved in any of the activities that some of the others may have been involved in. Her death was a human tragedy and the horror of that still lingers to this day. I still believe that Tex was the sole killer of Sharon as i don't believe that any woman would be capable of performing such an attrocity upon another woman. It just goes against the very instincts of female biology. Women don't go around killing other women who are pregnant. It goes against the very maternal insticts that a woman has in her to protect life. Tex, by his own actions, was like a mad dog and i have no doubt that it was Tex himself who carried out that deed. Why Tex is still alive today is a complete mystery to me. Usually men in prison, when they hear of such an attrocity like that, usually get justice the old fashioned way.
Susan, having lied to the grand jury, along with other things she said while under the influence of Charles Manson has had alot to do with the way people perceive her.
That's just not how it is.
8:45 am
You know it's just a matter of time before he deletes the words he has so much faith in.
His insults are just his a mirror of his own insecurities. The way he lashes out with the name calling, is how he feels about himself.
Savage said:
"I don't like the common notion that Bugliosi painted that labels Susan as the sole killer of Sharon Tate."
Umm, wrong I'm going by what Susan said. Never once have I sung the praise of Bugliosi, that's on you.
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Savage RDDB-DA said...
Heaven said:
>Sharon may not have been the greatest actress in the world, but at least she didn't live like a disgusting pig. She also didn't have globs of green shit oozing out of her crotch.
Sharon was actually making something of her life while Susan could only destroy life.
Sharon ate with a knife and fork, while Susan pawed through dumpsters hoping to find some tomatoes that weren't squashed.
What Sharon had, that Susan never will, was style and class, a beauty that's well respected through-out the world.<
You're right, Sharon had it all ... including a very good home life and loving parents who were there for her.
I'm disappointed in you Heaven, you should know that kids that come from a home with good parents have a better chance at making it in live and staying out of trouble than those that come from broken homes.
If i remember correctly, both you and I came from broken homes so why is that you can't feel any kind of sympathy for Susan knowing how her home life was? She was sexually abused and lost her mother to cancer and was not strong enough to face the world on her own.
Do you really want to crucify Susan for this?
I'm not excusing what she did but i can understand what it's like to search for something that's missing in a persons life.
Sharon was very lucky to come from a good home but it doesn't mean that Susan is less of a person for not having had a good homelife. All people need love heaven. It's an emotional need that people have.
Susan's father couldn't even get it in his own heart to show any kind of love for his own daughter. She lost her mother, had a father that was away from home often, a brother that sexually abused her. Do you even understand what that does to a person emotionally? She was very vulnerable to anyone that came along and was willing to give her what she was so badly in need of. She wanted someone to love her and care for her. She ended up working in a strip club in some topless witches review in San Francisco ..... Do you think she was sexually abused here too? Emotional trauma is invisible, the scars come from within. By the time Charles Manson arrived on the scene, Susan was easy pickings for a seasoned veteren like Charlie.
I don't excuse Susan for her crimes but i won't throw her life in the garbage because there were definetly factors involved that influenced who she became.
I'll put it to you this way, if Sharon and Susan had been in the opposite situation where it was Sharon that grew up in Susan's home and Susan having grown up in Sharon's home, what do you think the end result would have been?
Life is a very uncertain thing. If you're lucky enough to come from a good home and can avoid the early pitfalls of youth, you have a fairly good chance of a decent life. If you don't and fall in with the wrong crowd, your destiney may end up in someone else's hands.
9:22 AM
Let's see if I can respond to this all in one post..
Today is my birthday and I really feel like spending it talking about Susan...
Savage Said...
"I can say the same about you in terms of Sharon. You shop her as beautiful and decent and then come back at Susan calling her "The Thing".
Sharon was very beautiful, she was considered the most beautiful woman in the world. You saying otherwise is just your way of trying to upset others. I don't call her "the thing" I call her the inbred hillbilly. But Susan is a thing, she a nasty thing. Isn't that what she called Steven, the thing?
"Susan can't defend herself either. She's been locked away in prison for the last 36 years."
Susan has parole hearing every few years, in which she can spend a few hours trying to convince a panel of people that she's changed. She can also go over all her accomplishments while she's in custody..
When does Sharon and the others get to talk? Never. Susan still has a voice, her victims don't...
"No, it's just that you defend Sharon with the same tenacity in which I defend Susan.
I don't "defend" Sharon. I just think it's petty to trash a dead woman.
"I never justified what Susan did"
Yes you do, everytime you bring up her bad childhood. Susan is 58 years old. The statute of limitations on her bad childhood ran out decades ago. She needs to start acting like an adult and stop blaming everyone and everything for her actions. She was 21 years old at the time of her crimes, she was hardly a toddler.
"It was Stupid"
I think participating in mass murder that involved killing babies, is a bit more than just "stupid". It was horrific and brutal.
"We're all flawed in our own way and we do things in life we regret"
And regret she should.
"as a result of those actions, she was locked away after having been found guilty in a court of law."
Good. It's where she belongs
"Sharon's death was the most tragic of all. It's a sad, horrible story as I believe in my own heart that she was good woman who wasn't involved in any of the activities that some of the others may have been involved in."
So is that why you created your blog so you could mock and ridicule a dead woman? A woman who only wanted to have her child. Does that somehow color Susan in a better light?
"I still believe that Tex was the sole killer of Sharon as I don't believe that any woman would be capable of performing such an attrocity upon another woman."
That's where you're wrong. There are a lot of women who've slaughtered other women, shall I give you some names.
If Tex was the "sole" killer, Susan shouldn't have bragged for 22 years that she was the killer. Don't give me the Manson bullshit. She was away from Manson and the drugs for 22 years...
"It just goes against the very instincts of female biology. Women don't go around killing other women who are pregnant"
yes they do, there are several cases where women have killed pregnant women for the baby.. Again, want some names?
Now... If you'd stop thrusting Susan in my face, I'd stop thrusting my opinion of her in yours.. The more you try to convince me that Susan has changed, the more I'm going to state my opinions.
You seem to feel you have the right to tell us how wonderful she is, so by that same token, we have the right to call bullshit.
THAT'S just how it is.
I personally think Patricia has changed, but I don't ram that opinion down everyones throat. I don't need to hijack every thread here promoting my opinion.
I don't need to use my childhood as a crutch. Yes it was bad, it was very bad.. But I'm a better person for it.
Had Susan used her head, she wouldn't be where she is today. It's not Manson's fault, it's not my fault and it sure as hell isn't Sharon's fault. It's Susan's fault. Period!
Happy Birthday Heaven!
Savage said..
"If i remember correctly, both you and I came from broken homes so why is that you can't feel any kind of sympathy for Susan knowing how her home life was? She was sexually abused and lost her mother to cancer and was not strong enough to face the world on her own."
I don't give two flying shits about Susan's bad childhood. To her it wasn't a learning experience, it was a crutch. A means to cause destruction then have something to blame it on..
My brother molested me when I was 3 years old, he was 13.. Was it my fault? Did I have it coming? Maybe cause I was born female you think it's ok right?
How old was Susan when her sexual abuse started? I bet you she was a lot older than me.
"Do you really want to crucify Susan for this?"
Yes I do.. Once again Savage, it's called C-H-O-I-C-E-S! Susan made hers, now she needs to live with them.
"I'm not excusing what she did but i can understand what it's like to search for something that's missing in a persons life."
Yes you are.. Oh poor Susan, she lost her mommy, oh poor Susan, she was molested. Wa Wa Wa Wa WAAA..
I never had a mother and I was molested too, did that give me the right to friggin kill people?
"Sharon was very lucky to come from a good home but it doesn't mean that Susan is less of a person for not having had a good homelife"
Susan was 21 (again) at the time of the murders, she wasn't a baby, she was a grown women. This childhood crutch is getting old...
"Susan's father couldn't even get it in his own heart to show any kind of love for his own daughter"
So that was Sharon's fault, Steven's? Jays? Voyecks?, Abigails? Leno's? Rosemary's? Gary's? Come on, which one of them is to blame because daddy didn't love Susan?
"She lost her mother"
Least she had a mother for the first 14 years of her life, I didn't.
"Do you even understand what that does to a person emotionally?"
Yes Savage, I think I know first hand what abuse does to a person. But it still didn't give her the right to do the things she did. As an abused child she shouldn't have been giving blow jobs to her son, but she did anyway.
"i won't throw her life in the garbage"
Can you stop throwing it up to us?
"I'll put it to you this way, if Sharon and Susan had been in the opposite situation where it was Sharon that grew up in Susan's home and Susan having grown up in Sharon's home, what do you think the end result would have been?"
What difference does it make? Sharon is dead.
Dr.Dodopariti said...
Happy Birthday Heaven!
10:08 AM
Thank you sweetie!
=)
Salem,
If I recall correctly, Manson has said he doesn't want anything to do with his kids.
=)
"U dont know him, who are u to judge?"
Salem,
I'm not judging him, I only made a comment about what he admitted to doing. Do you know him?
Savage,
Here is a list of women who have murdered, some in very brutal fashions..
Karla Homolda
Participated in the rape and murder of three teenagers, one of them was her own little sister.
Martha Beck
Partner in the Lonely Hearts Murders. Was one of the biggest cases of the 1940's.
Debra Brown
rape, robbery and murder spree in five states.
Charlene Gallego
With her husband she helped to kill 10 people
Judith Neelley
Serial killer who helped her husband kill many people, she was 18 years old
Rose West
Turned children into sex slaves and murdered them...
Here's a list of women who've killed without the help of their husbands.
Beverley Allitt
Baby killer
Lena Baker
Velma Barfield
Grandmother who poisoned her husbands, boyfriends, elderly people in her care and even her mother.
Sue Basso
Depraved woman traps mentally handicapped man so she can use him as slave and kill him for insurance
Elizabeth Bathory
murdered women for fun and bathing in their blood to make herself more beautiful.
Bambi Bembenek
Escape of ex-cop and convicted murderer
Mary Ann Cotton
Murdered between 15-21 of her close relatives by arsenic poisoning.
Diane Downs:
Shot her three children so she could win back the man she loved
Susan Smith
Drowned her two sons
Kathleen Folbigg
Murdered her children then blamed it on crib death
The list continues on and on...
Killing isn't based on gender. Women can kill too...
Salem said...
Susan was young woman that came from a broken home whose innocense was stolen from her by a man who was very well seasoned in unlocking people's minds and implanting his own philosophies.
Both her mind and her life had been stolen from her and the end result of that is all in the record. It's a human tragedy that nobody should have to experience.
OMG
CAN WE GO ONE DAY WITH OUT *POOR SUSAN*.
*SHES WHERE SHE SHOULD BE AND REMAIN*
SHE WAS INTO DRUGS AND CRIME WAY BEFORE SHE MET CM.
I agree, poor little Susan. Life was just so hard on her....
I forgot to add women who killed pregnant woman
Darlene Fischer
Killed Lisa Montgomery for the baby she was carrying.
Effie Goodson
shot Carolyn Simpson, who was six months pregnant, but the baby died as well
Michelle Bica
Killed her neighbor Theresa Andrews in Ohio, who was close to giving birth. Bica informed her husband that she was pregnant in 2000 and then shot Anderson, taking the baby to claim as her own.
Erin Kuhn
Killed her own niece for the baby she was carrying. The baby died.
Felicia Scott
Killed Carethia Curry, her friend. Curry was pregnant and Scott decided that she wanted the child, so she killed Curry to get it.
Jacqueline Williams
desperately wanted a baby, so they found a woman, Deborah Evans, who was ready to give birth. They killed her, along with two of her children, and escaped with her baby.
Darci Pierce
abducted Cindy Ray near a prenatal clinical in New Mexico and attacked her. Pierce strangled the pregnant woman, killing her, and used a car key to remove the unborn child.
So, for future referance, please don't say it's against a woman's nature to kill. Because it isn't...
Thank you Shopgirl
=)
Salem said...
"NO MONK man ya wrong again!
Some of us just get lucky and hit the damn jack pot and smoke weed all day and have no job, take a bath with freind( save water)
screw the government.
PEACE"
Salem, not exactly sure what you're trying to say with this. Are you describing your life? If so, have one for me (not the bath, I can do that myself)!!!!
Salem said;
OMG
CAN WE GO ONE DAY WITH OUT *POOR SUSAN*.
*SHES WHERE SHE SHOULD BE AND REMAIN*
SHE WAS INTO DRUGS AND CRIME WAY BEFORE SHE MET CM.
Amen sister!
Salem said...
OH
Happy Birthday Heaven.
go out and have a blast!
dont let this BS about susan be a cloud over a day that should be celebrated.
Thanks hon.. My hubby is taking me out to dinner later.. Which is cool, someone else doing the cooking AND the dishes. Now THAT'S a present LOL
As for the Susan stuff. I'm done talking about her. I've said everything there is to say. Savage will never change my opinions and I'm tired of beating a dead horse...
=)
Heaven,
Enjoy your dinner and have fun ..You deserve it !!!
Salem, thought you might find this interesting. Maybe we can all stop harboring illusions that Sandra Good was a peaceloving hippie who never approved of what Tex, Sadie, Katie, and Leslie did back in 1969. By her own admission, she most certainly did approve....
"Good: And my friends, who did the killings, I stand by 'em, I stand by 'em, because I didn't see anybody else willing to go to war; in war, there's death."
http://www.squeakyfromme.org/media/1993iv.htm
"AND MY FRIENDS, WHO DID THE KILLINGS, I STAND BY 'EM." - SANDRA GOOD, MOTHER OF THE YEAR, NOW "HAPPY"
Maybe that should be the caption underneath the Sharon Tate death photo?
shopgirl said...
Heaven, I started a blog entitled "Roasting Savage" but I think I might need your help getting it underway.
(PS:I'm at work now so I might have to sign-off shortly)
LOL ok, holla if you need me
=)
60skid said...
Heaven,
Enjoy your dinner and have fun ..You deserve it !!!
11:43 AM
Thanks hon, I'm going too.. Steak YUMMY!!
=)
Heaven said...
60skid said...
Heaven,
Enjoy your dinner and have fun ..You deserve it !!!
11:43 AM
Thanks hon, I'm going too.. Steak YUMMY!!
Sounds good think of us when you eating it !!!
Have one for us Heaven !!!
Monk,
I could be wrong, but when Sandy was running the ATWA site, didn't she put up a picture of Sharon and Jay in death... Adding something about them being pigs?
I found it..
Under the death picture of Sharon and Jay, it says this..
"Charles Manson represents good, truth, and life - for all - Not just the rich, evil piggys like Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring"
That comment has always bothered me...
Heaven, I dont know if Sandy put that picture up or not. I'm inclined to think she didn't and that was put up after she stopped maintaining it and someone else took over. Some other nutbag.
I have seen the page. The picture with the caption clearly was combined by someone with rocks for brains. Yes, both Jay and Sharon are referred to as "rich, evil piggies".
Gee, what a way to win people over to your point of view, no?
:)
That picture has been there for a long time....
If Sandy didn't put it there, and she was running the site, who did I wonder....
She must have stopped working on it a long time ago.. The last update was August 2000
Audio,
Thank you for adding Andrea Yates to the list.. She was one twisted bitch...
The one that sickens me the most is Karla Homolda.. She helped her husband rape and murder her own sister. How sick is that?
You can read all about her story here...
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/bernardo/homolka_jump_page.html
Apparently her husband had a "thing" for vigins.. Karla wasn't, but her little sister was.. So she drugged her and presented the child to him as a gift...
After her sister was dead, she helped him find other girls to rape...
Savage said,
"I'm not picking you for not liking Susan. That's understandable but it just seems to me as if you've singled her out a little more so than Pat and Tex and i'm just curious as to why that is."
I only singled Susan out cause she was the one that kept being brought up...
Anytime you wanna start trashing Tex, just lemme know.. I'm not biased against Susan over Tex...
I think he's more of an animal then she was...
I don't hate you in the least. I don't hate Susan either. I just don't like what she did and I don't feel any of them (including Patricia) deserve to be released...
I also don't feel like fighting either lol
So let's just sum it up by saying you have your opinions and I have mine.. It doesn't make either of us stupid, irrational or emotional..
It only makes us different...
Thank you for the birthday wishes
=)
Savage, I stirred the poo poo pot on this one. I'm sorry mate.
Savage,
You're free to believe whatever you wish.. It's your right...
Now, let's just drop Susan... We'll never agree and it's time to move on to other topics...
=)
OOO I see a snipe comin lol
=)
Now how can I leave!?!
Dr.Dodopariti said...
Now how can I leave!?!
12:29 PM
Ya can't.. the game is on!
Savage said
"As hard as i can be on Linda Kasabian, even i admit that technically she did the right thing from a legal and judicial stanpoint."
WOOHOO
Alright Savage!!!
Now stand back cause there's a snipe comin lol
=)
Savage said...
"Giving someone up to safe yourself is not an honorable act, but perhaps there are times when maybe, just maybe, it's justifiable."
True
LOL, not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse, I'm holding my breath over heres
The thing with Karla Holmolka is totally different. She is not, I repeat not on parole. She had a sentence of 12 years and she served the full term.
The Ontario Police had very little evidence on Paul Bernardo at the time they and the Crown Prosecutor made a deal with Karla to testify against him in return for a 12 year sentence. It was only after her deal had been made and she had testified that the police and Crown discovered the videotapes on the crimes but it was too late to change the deal with Holmolka because she had already been charged and convicted for her part in the murders. The deal covered her for any and all crimes while the police didn't even know about her sister.
As of right now there are a number of requirements that Holmoka has to meet in order to stay out of prison which frankly I cannot believe they could enforce since she has completed her sentence.
I feel sorry for her family, and the family of the two victims but people should be getting mad at the incompetence of the Ontario Provincial Police for the way they totally botched the case leaving them with Karla to seal the deal.
Just as one example in a field of many screwups, the Ontario Police sat on Bernardo's dna for two years waiting for it to be tested in a case regarding a rapist in Scarborough, Ontario. Bernardo has since been convicted as the Scarborough rapist. If the police and the lab had tested his dna sooner at least one girl probably would still be alive and they wouldn't have had to make the deal with Karla.
Deb
SNIPE!!!!
=)
Damn!! I thought it was after the hundred mark.
Damn I'm good!!
With that I'm off to celebrate my birthday with my hubby.. You all have a fantastic night!
=)
Dr.Dodopariti said...
Damn!! I thought it was after the hundred mark.
12:38 PM
LOL
You can get the 600th post..... Maybe LOL
You have a great night hon...
Alright, you win, this one. Happy birthday I hope you and your hubby have a great time. See ya later Snipper.
Savage,
Before I leave I just wanna add that I think Linda took the deal cause what happened was wrong..
Murder is just plain wrong.
I'm not saying she was an angel, I never have.. I think she should have served some time for conspiracy..
But look at the Pamela Smart case, it's a perfect example..
Pamela was a teacher in New Hampshire, she started screwing one of her students and got him to kill her husband...
Several kids were involved but only one triggerman, her lover.
One of the kids was named Cecilia.. Now she knew about the plot to kill Greg Smart, she knew about it for a while before it happened... She even helped locate a gun...
After the murder and the police questioned her, she lied to them, saying she knew nothing...
She wore a wire and got Pam to admit to things on tape...
The police gave Cecilia an immunity deal because they desperately needed her testimony to put Pam away...
Sometimes, you have to make a deal with the devil.. The DA didn't like this deal, but had no choice...
You can read about Pamela Smart online to get the whole story...
I think the same was true for Linda.. Better to give immunity to a person who didn't actually kill anyone, who had all the inside information and eye witness accounts, then to give it to someone who probably did kill...
I think Linda was the lessor of all the evils but they needed her...
Ok, gutta go, have a great night!
=)
Ok I know I'm gonna regret sounding like a broken-record and going down this road AGAIN, but...
Savage...
"As hard as i can be on Linda Kasabian, even i admit that technically she did the right thing from a legal and judicial stanpoint. That cuts across my belief in the Omerta. Giving someone up to safe yourself is not an honorable act, but perhaps there are times when maybe, just maybe, it's justifiable."
I'd say in this case it was 100% justifiable And I would go as far as to say that it *IS* an honorable act WHEN the person you are giving up are the likes of Sadie, Katie, Tex, and Lulu.
Yay Linda! High-Five girl!!!!!
:)
Salem said...
"I am still anti-establishment."
Salem, I'm intrigued. Can I ask, what exactly does it mean to be "anti-establishment" in the year 2006? Can you define that?
I'm guessing you mean something a little deeper than the goth punk kids who now haunt The Haight begging for spare change so they can score a fix.
Salem said...
"whatever MONK"
Salem, did you read the quote in the link or not? Can you still deny to yourself that Sandy approved of the butchering?
Can you honestly still deny it? What does "whatever" mean in this context?
Salem, what does Bush have to do with any of this? For the record, and not that it matters, I didn't vote for the guy and I think he sucks. But I'm not at all getting the connection between Bush and Sandra Good approving of baby Paul Tate slowly dying in the womb while his mother bled to death.
Salem, it isn't my reality. It is REALITY. I didn't make up those quotes. They are real. It isn't a question of what *I* believe. It's a question of what SANDY SAID.
Maybe Sandy has changed. I certainly hope she has for she alone will have to face herself eventually. But that quote was from 1993, where she had almost 25 years to contemplate the wrongness of her friends actions.
So I must ask again, do you still deny that Sandra Good approved of the butchering at Cielo and Waverly Drive?
Can you just answer without being evasive?
Salem, you're being evasive and obfuscating with your Bush comments. I'm not going to get into a discussion with you about Bush and Iraq. We're talking about SANDRA GOOD here.
I'm just waiting to see if you can answer my question about Sandra.
Do you still deny that she approved of Sharon, Woytek, Abigail, Steven, Jay, Rosemary, and Leno being butchered?
Salem, sounds like you're just evading the question. We never established for even five seconds that we were discussing Sandra Good only within the context of YOUR personal discussions with her. We are discussing Sandra Good in general. You earlier denied that Sandra ever said she approved of the killings. I provided evidence that contradicts your assertion.
Can you PLEASE come down to earth for just a moment and discuss this without resorting to new-agey mind games?
Salem, spare me. I don't need a lesson in metaphysics. In previous posts you've been able to discuss these topics on a rational level without new-agey word game evasions.
For some reason, now that I've provided you with evidence that Sandra Good indeed approved of the TLB killings, you're now floating off into the clouds with word games about "reality" and "the moment" as a means to avoid facing the question.
Are you afraid to face the question? It's really a simple one. Did Sandra ever go on record as approving of the TLB killings?
Just answer the darn question and I'll back off. If you're so firm in your beliefs it should be a very easy question to answer.
"Yes she did."
or
"No she didnt."
????
Salem said...
"as for sandy going on record appoving the tlb killings,YES
, seems she did."
Thank you! whew!
Crikey, was that so hard?
Salem,
May I ask you a question?
Charlie & his followers.. Did not consider their self's ... hippies did they?
3:12 PM
Doc said: "I find it interesting that people still believe in CM and his way of thinking. To such a degree that they believe they know him and were apart of that whole sensation. It's sick."
Although I am not immune to occasional fantasies of smoking tons of pot and running through fields in the SoCal sunshine with naked people everywhere, personally I think most people who romanticize those early Spahn days with Charlie are full of shit and wouldn't last a week at the real Spahn Ranch with the real Family. Charlie gave a lot of people the creeps even before anyone was murdered. I can't imagine Sadie, Squeaky, and Sandra Good didn't creep out many a visitor as well.
IMHO
:)
Salem said...
"Oh wow
thats why so many people were drawn to him.cuz he was creepy!
LOL too funny."
Salem, a bunch of mixed-up kids were drawn to him. A larger number came and went. How many people really wound up hardcore inner-circle members? The one's with a shred of common sense probably didn't last very long.
Some Hollywood folks were drawn to him too, in a novelty kind of way. An equal number seemed to be repelled by him.
I am not denying that there was something very charismatic about him. Clearly there was. But that doesn't mean he didn't creep some folks out.
Savage, there were aspects to life at Spahn that I'm sure were very challenging. But there were plenty of elements to the experience that probably seemed like a vacation to these middle-class kids.
There was a very fluid sense of responsibility and don't think for a second that anything got in the way of "fun". Not even the lack of funds, for which they would just go out and steal.
They were young. I wasn't in my late teens and early 20's that long ago. I remember college dorm life like it was yesterday. At that age you are able to put up with a lot of crap in order to have fun. Trust me, most of the Family wouldn't have lasted in that environment past their 29th birthday.
Let's not kid ourselves into believing Spahn was a hard knock life along the lines of true suffering with no escape.
Squeaky says "It was so much fun that it scared us."
Couldn't have been THAT hard.
Savage said:
"America will not be stolen from its people without a fight."
It's people... were the Indians and it was taken, with a fight by foreiners, your ancestors. Yes changes are coming, but that's all they are, changes.
So, how long did Dean Morehouse love at Cielo?
Savage said...
"I've never been more serious that people need to prepare. This country may be on the brink of falling into civil war. The administration is just so arrogantly EVIL that anything can happen."
Civil war?? What do you base this on? I see no signs of Civil war (Look it up in the Dictionary). I will however, agree with you that people should have supplies stocked up and a disaster plan ready. Civil war.....come on Savage that's just hysterics.
Now open this topic up on your blog and permit people to post there. You have a habit of taking this blog off topic.
shopgirl said...
"Their selfish and self-centered need to gain attention to make headlines"
Shopgirl I agree, I think a lot of what they did just stemmed from a desire for attention. During the trial and afterwards (with people like Squeaky and Sandy), the Manson Family was like one giant temper-tantrum, a bunch of brats with a grudge against their parents.
Sandy and Squeaky especially seemed to want a lot of attention for shock value. Geeze their parents must have really done a number on them growing up.
Savage said...
"Charlie taught us that"
The only thing Charlie can teach us is how to be a loser.
These people who glorify Manson and his "message" are so freaking gullible and easy. My six year old nephew has more original and brilliant insights into life and humanity than Manson ever did. His shit was just copped from various sources and sloppily strung together, and it's not really all that original. Gullible people go "ooooh! ahhhhh! wow man he's so deep!"
Yawn.
I know Salem and other Pro-Manson folks will disagree but I don't really care. Charlie is neither THE BOOGIEMAN nor any kind of WISE PROPHET. He's just a loser ex-con who grabbed some headlines for a while and ran with it. There are so many other people in the world worthy of respect and admiration for their words and deeds. Charlie's just a joke.
And yes Salem, that's MY REALITY.
Monk, I believe you are absoultely right, just a bunch of dumb punks looking for a cause.
What's wrong with making money if youre working hard and contributing to society? I have a lot of money, because I work hard. What of it? Who or you to tell me that's bad?
Savage said:
"Even John Lennon's song "Imagine" frowned upon materialism."
Have you ever been in an apartment at the Dakota? Please, those apartments are amazing! He may have preached to look down on materialism, but I don't think he practiced what he preached.
shopgirl said:
"Please refrain from canonizing them as saints and positive mentors to the rest of the world. "
Right on sister, now that's in the now!
You'll always have my support when it comes to misplaced sympathy. There should only be sympathy for the victims, all of them. How can you have sympathy for the murders, they made their choices. The end.
Heaven:
Ok so Yupyup owns 2violent.com?
Pretty cool!
=)
Nope. I just post on the forum there and have nice discussions with neo-nazis :)
Oh and a happy belated birthday, Heaven! I hope you had a good day.
I support the troops. But I am againist Bush war for oil .Bring our people home
Shopgirl,
Regarding the Iraq War - when the UN did not sanction the US to invade Iraq 3 years ago, it made no difference to most Americans. History will determine the outcome of whether it was the right or wrong thing to do.
It made a different to more Americans then you think . I was againist the war then and I am againist it today
I'm sorry to burst your bubble Shopgirl, but Saddam had absolutely NOTHING to do with Bin Laden. It was just a feeble excuse and a thin disguise of the REAL reason for this war: oil.
Why do you think the UN was against it? Not because there was so much proof for all the wild theories that were being spun!
"I was under the impression Saddam was a sympathizer of bin Laden's and tolerate of his cause which infuriated the Bush Administration. However, I may have been mistaken."
He was, but so is 99% of the Middle East. You can't invade a country because the political leaders there don't agree with your views. That's stupid and childish IMHO.
"My understanding why the UN was against it - was because they weren't allowed to sanction whether the US would go into Iraq before the US actually did, which is why some describe it as 'an invasion' while others describe it 'a war'. "
The UN wasn't so sure about the reasons the US was presenting for attacking Iraq. It later turned out there were no WMDs there and no big bozos from Al Quaida were ever arrested there either (but did get arrested in buddy country Pakistan - oh the irony!) so it's safe to assume the UN was right: the reasons the US came up with to attack Iraq were invalid.
But that's the general European view on the whole thing and I'm confident the truth is somewhere in the middle.
The problem now is the US can't leave Iraq because a civil war is about to break out there. No matter what the US will do now (stay or leave), they'll look bad because it's going to be a bloodbath.
I wonder why the house was really torn down.
Spooky
I've heard somewhere there was music left playing at Cielo. The Mama's and the Papa's 12:30 (Young girls are coming to the canyon...)Over and over on a loop.
Um...hello...?
Col Scott, you must have a theory.
C'mon, share....plz?
Spooky
Salem, thank you so so much for posting those 3 paragraphs of Sandy's words, I am not a specialist of the case as much as you guys are but from everything I saw up to that day, her description fits best what I believe to have really happened back then, she is logical and puts Vietnam in context right where it should be, at the heart of the case. Of course Tex and the girls were atrocious monsters but their story was totally distorted by the establishment (read Nixon and Kissinger) to discredit those damn peace loving hippies who were starting to be dangerously powerful against the military industrial complex and their insane profits of war, as were JFK, RFK and MLK. So, thanks a million again and thanks to the Col for all this. Rose.
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