Aside from Vera showing up and claiming we are all so totally wrong just trust her word, let's get back to Bryn.
How does Lotsapoppa's bodyguard end up best friends with Dennis Wilson and hanging at the ranch?
Was Charlie really surprised that Crowe was still alive when he saw him in the corridor or was he shocked to see him testifying against him?
BTW, WHY was a drug dealer, who had kidnapped a girl, even used as a witness against Charlie?
Did Charlie really think he was a Black Panther? Wouldn't Bryn have laughed at that?
Now, if I want to buy into the idea of Charlie as mastermind, but not the psycho of Helter Skelter, how about this-
Charlie shoots Crowe and rescues Kroner. TJ and the others with him supported this. He takes the leather strap off of Bryn. He knows the guy is gonna live, but he got to play cowboy. Remember this as well- CROWE NEVER CAME AFTER HIM. Never came after anybody. Why not? Guy is still out $5000 and has lead in his belly. This is the guy that said over the phone he was gonna rape the women and make the men watch.
But maybe over the next week somebody (Bryn?) helps make the peace. Comes down to the ranch. Says get $25k and this goes away. Bryn gets scooped up in the raid but they are all out in hours.
Now Charlie needs $25k, or he needs to get out of LA. Hmm Death Valley sounds nice. Or we can get the $25k from Gary he might have it. If we assume the truth of the MDMA burn, the Frenchman owes Charlie for the Biker violence- go get it Bobby.
And Tex still owes him for ripping off Crowe to begin with.
I don't know. I just like to think like real human beings do, not like characters in a BUGliosi paranoia play.
Or course Crowe wouldn't back down. But he seems to have. Why?
15 comments:
You just insist on making Vera work, don't you Col?
First off, I didn't say everybody "was all so totally wrong," I said you were all so totally wrong.
And I didn't say "trust my word", I said trust my FACTS. Big diff.
The facts proving "Bryn" wasn't "scooped up in the raid" are as follows:
1) He's not listed in any of the very thorough LASO reports which include the afore-mentioned mug shots and booking sheets for all who were arrested.
2) Among your "proof" that he was arrested August 16? Well, except for the "reader" who "told you" the picture of the guy w/ his head turned sideways in the group photo you posted (April 11) was "Bryn"
and the mug shot you have from Jon A., you've turned up absolutely nothing else.
That sideways guy clearly isn't "Bryn" -- look at your Jon A. mug shot that for some reason (law suit?) you've failed to post yet. Very different head, profile, hair style, etc.
3) Now, besides the fact that "Bryn" isn't listed in any of the LASO raid reports, you also should take a closer look at the Jon A. mug shot and compare it to the mugs taken of those actually arrested that day.
The data below each arrestee includes the arresting agency, LASO, the date of arrest, 8-16-69, and, most importantly, the individual's booking numbers and the arrest file numbers.
While each of the 8/16 arrest mug shots (and booking sheets if you can get them, too) include the identical file #: 469-02614-10721-029 in the upper right hand corner, they also have the six digit booking numbers, which are sequential and vary in their last several digits, according to the individual's booking time.
NONE of the info (booking and file #'s, date, location and charge) on "Bryn's" mug shot are consistent (or even close) to those of the 8-16 arrestees. (Put the mug shot of "Bryn" up on your page next to the shots of Atkins, Krenwinkel, etc., and let your readers judge for themselves. Dare you).
4) And, as I said before, the reason Jon A. and whomever else (like Sanders, see the last edition of his book for the published mug shot cards) mistook "Bryn" for being among the 8/16 arrestees was because he was on the cards of suspected Manson associates compiled by sheriffs at LASO and Inyo.
Look at those cards again: other folks on them NOT arrested on 8/16 include Dianne Lake, Sandy Good, Ella Jo Baily and Harold True (!).
****
Now, for your cont'd claim that "Bryn" was witness to the Crowe shooting, well, all you've cited as corroboration is Eddie Sanders whose claims you normally ridicule. Whaddup wit dat?
I, on the other hand, have referred you to trial testimony (both Tate-LaBianca and Watson) as well as the Kroner-Crowe police reports which I'm sure you have access to.
The people who witnessed the shooting, on Crowe's side, were, yes, Dale Fimple (long dead), and Jimmy and Steve. I'm not going to put their last name's here because I don't want to be party to their likely harassment, but you know where to find 'em. (Steve was the party to the apparel-exchange you ascribe to "Bryn").
And if you suspect that I'm an advocate for, or friend of, "Bryn," I ain't (never met him). Just an advocate for the truth.
Those are my facts, what are yours?
xxoxoxo,
Vera
PS: Okay, if you wanna do some sleuthing, look into the discrepancy of when the shooting occurred and figure out why the authorities said it occurred July 1, but those involved insisted it was August 1. That oughta keep ya busy
You know- Matt/ Leary...
These posts and subject go to the heart of Crowe being the spark for TLB...
If these questions can be resolved- we might know if you guys were right, or....
lol
Dont worry- I am not the type of guy who would be loud if proved right....
Vera is Jon Aes nil perhaps...
Vera- there is always something about people who come into a room loud and strong and know everything there is to know about a subject that really makes me think you must be full of shit.... or that your just like me me :)
but your good at it lol- you sound very official with the booking numbers and all..
maybe your right about all this- I dont really know
but I need Charlie to know Crowe
wasn't dead to be right myself- so I hope your not... I hope that is Bryn in the pic with all my heart and soul lol
xoxoxox
Does anybody here remember
Vera Lynn
Remember how she said that
We would meet again
Some sunny day
Vera! Vera!
Not sure how to respond to Vera because she had me going pretty well, and then told me Crowe was shot 4 days before TLB...when Charlie was in Esalen.
Talk about a magic bullet!
So, am I going to have to be the new Col. Scott fact-checker?
Jesus!
Number 1 -- I didn't say that Crowe was shot on August 1st, I simply said it might be interesting for someone to look at the discrepancies between the two dates -- July 1 and August 1 -- the shooting was alleged to have taken place!
You really have a way for twisting people's words, Col.
And you're making more mistakes than Sanders and the Bug COMBINED these days. I'm surprised at you!
Manson didn't leave Spahn for Esalen until Sunday, Aug. 3 (and spent the night there Aug. 5-6).
You're mixing up the date the call from the Tate house went to Esalen -- July 30 -- in your silly attempt to discredit me.
Manson WAS in LA August 1, and, if you look at the testimony at the Watson trial, the official date the prosecution entered into the record as the Crowe shooting changed from the Tate-LaB (testimony) date of July 1 to August 1.
Just days after the kids returned from Hinman.
Chew on that fatso.
xxoxoxoox,
V
And sorry Lizabeth, I'm not the Vera you're referring to...
And St. C, you're mostly right, so relax.
Oh, but it's def NOT him in that pic! Just let's say Charlie knew full well Crowe lived.
I can live with mostly :)
Vera
There is no need for personal attacks. The purpose we have here is to discuss in a quest for the truth. You are doing a good job of this. PLease keep it up but play well with others. Thank you.
Col,
My apologies (too much Chardonnay when I wrote that angry screed).
Never a personal attack outta my kisser again.
But you, too, stop with the Susanna Lo lesbo/asian-heritage/fat actress knocks. You seem to be a champion of gay rights, except when it comes to her and some in her cast ("Samantha Lo Mein"...
"One fat lesbian actress, Heather Matarazzo...with her big and husky Girlfriend plays Sexy Sadie"...)
xxoxoxox,
V
I like it Col, but I raise the following:
1. Very little in the way of monetary goods were extracted from any of the victims. Still, the murders went on.
2. Charlie is schizophrenic, at least episodically. Therefore he does not always think like a normal human being.
3. Did Pat Krenwinkle raise up her knife and plunge it down for money, or for ideology?
4. Tying into that last point, since there were 8 people tried for the various murders, can we not say that there were multiple motives, which are not mutually exclusive?
Crowe is sitting in the pic posted here. Could he stand or was he still recovering from the gunshot?
I've seen this photo before and always thought this guy was Bruce Davis. He had hippie clothes like this and wore his hair in a similar manner. Was he arrested in the raid?
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