The Col always liked to believe that Charlie at least thought Terry still lived at Cielo. I mean the BUG Is easy to ignore and fucking Terry managed to say almost nothing while he was alive.
But assuming the validity of those notes, which admittedly were all jumbled (like notes usually are, right?) Charlie ASKED FOR TERRY'S ADDRESS. That is way different from "Hey, he no longer lives here" and Charlie is all in the middle of trying to impress big rep Rudy and doesn't hear. It is an actual response and acknowledgement that the guy has moved.
So if we accept that, then major possibilities are just gone. The house was chosen either due to seclusion or due to targeting one of the people there.
Leaving aside seclusion and realizing that we at the Blog deal with reality not fantasy- What is the chance that Charlie had a beef worthy of slaughter with somebody who just happened to be at Terry's old house?
Let's go further--- No one thinks Sharon is there. She isn't the target. If she isn't there then Sebring isn't either. So that leaves Abigail or Voytek as the target. I'm throwing down with the Pole. But if he is the target, what are the chances that Manson or a Rancher even knew the fucking guy?
I wonder if maybe while up there with Rudy he bumped into Voytek. One thing led to another, drug burn, revenge?
This thing is so hard to sort out....
47 comments:
Col: "Let's go further--- No one thinks Sharon is there. She isn't the target. If she isn't there then Sebring isn't either. So that leaves Abigail or Voytek as the target..."
No, Col, Jay spent quite a bit of time at the house hangin' and partying and doing who-knows-what-else w/ Voy & Gibby and their gang in Sharon & Roman's absence.
You knew that! (Senior moment?).
Yes but he can't be expected to be there. There's no guarantee. You don't send a five person hit squad and HOPE your target is there.
Well, if he was the target (or part of the target) then the possibility that he was there was as high as him being at home. Look at the reports re: his activities in the months before the murders. He was there almost every day or night...when he wasn't at the Candy Store or the Factory.
"So if we accept that, then major possibilities are just gone. The house was chosen either due to seclusion or due to targeting one of the people there."
Ok, did somebody hijack the Col's blog? Because to this I can only say:
ummm, duh!
White Rabbit is the source of the rumored Frykowski drug burn on Linda. White Rabbit isn't a credible source of information. He is a writer of fairy tales worthy of a Lewis Carrol fable.
No one thinks Sharon is there...
CM knows , (unfortunately)STP is there...
She isn't the target....
Unfortunately, maybe she was.
Yes White Rabbit is all you say Col and worse. He started the rumor that Frykowski prior to the murders had burned Linda at Cielo which is fiction. Linda only went to Cielo once.
The most likely answer IMO is that the killers have been feirly truthful. Cielo got hit as a "love of brother" any-pig-will-do copycat caper to get Bobby out. Cielo was only chosen cos they knew the place, the layout, that on a hot night you just cut thru the screen to get in, it's remote(ish) & the residents & neighbours are freaky enough that no-one reacts to screaming sounds as anything unusual.
Then I think the LaBianca's got hit the next night precisely because killing Sebring & Tate was a big mistake i.e. they'd better do in some unknown people cos offing celebs was going to bring down the wrath of the Pigs on them. If Bug's race-war theory was right surely they'd have just sent a threatening note to the papers (claiming to be Panthers).
Thinking straight wasn't so easy that summer, it seems.
Sorry, I do not know what you are talking about White Rabbit …
Why would Sharon be targeted ?
Because it’s CM that asked TW to kill everybody in that particular house, and since TW owed one (life) to CM , and CM knew perfectly who was living in that house, STP is the main target, because CM wanted to be famous world wide, he couln’t do it with music, he managed to still do it in an awfull way...
Of course I may not be right at all, but this is my understanding of the case.
I thought that Manson just told the girls to do what Tex said.
Col,
Why are you still flirting with the idea that Charlie was the lead singer of "the family's" version of helter skelter?
Sharon's car was in the shop that day. SHE wasn't at the house that night, so to speak. Neither was Melcher. The murders had NOTHING to do with Sharon or Melcher.
Don't get lost in thinking that Sebring wouldn't be there if Sharon wasn't. Sebring and Voytek were both players in the "elite" hollywood drug trade. Any reason to think they weren't working together? Would they be in the same house and not know what the other is up to?
The LaBianca hit wasn't randon either. The "little blck book" was snagged by Frank Patchett (LAPD) and it's probably still trapped in a shoe box in his wife's closet.
Leno was in on SOMETHING. Manson said in the Doug Bruckner interview "I knew Frankie Carbo...Frankie Carbo knew Leno LaBianca."
Coincidences happen all the time. Harold True's house being next door is AND ISN'T a coincidence. Neighbors were more "neighborly" back then and you can bet safely that Leno and True most likely were sharing some action (drugs?).
Phil Kaufman could probably confirm that if he could get his head clear and stop claiming that HE was the intended victim that night.
There are answers but the peripheral players all seem to go nuts and feed us a bunch of bullshit in an effort to get their 15 minutes before they check out for good.
Leno never lived next door to Harold True. Harold had moved before the Labs moved in.
The little black book is fiction.
All Charlie knew was that there were movie star types at Cielo.
All Charlie knew was that there were movie star types at Cielo.
CM was'nt probably that dumb.
He knew perfectly that sending TW that night he would shock the entire World !
MrPoirot?
Who ARE you and why are you here?
The little black book is not fiction. Patchett took it. It's real.
Leno may not have "lived" at the house when True lived next door. He grew up in that house and it was still owned by his family. He spent a lot of time there and knew the neighborhood.
True had A LOT more involvement with "The Family" than just some guy they partied with a few times.
Anything's possible.
Patchett, incidentally, was already a suspicious character. Look up his involvement in the RFK assassination aftermath.
could it be manson was sending the message not to melcher but to altobelli? altobelli had to have a reason to suspect manson on his trip from europe back to l.a. after the murders.
Scramblehead,
Because Manson "said it" hardly means it happened.
Where has it ever been documented -- or even alleged by a credible source -- that Patchett (or anyone) took a "little black book" (or anything like it) from the LaBianca premises?
Jeez!
Why is it about whom CM knows, rather than who Charles "Tex" Watson knows, or Patricia Krenwinkle knows... despite the disclaimer on the front page of the blog, you're still operating under the premise that Manson was the ringleader, the person who planned and "executed" the murders.
Try a different scenario. Someone with a beef against an inhabitant of that household, perhaps a prison acquaintance of Charlie's from years back, and says, "Anyone wanna go over to Melcher's old house, where a guy who owes me money currently resides, and teach 'em a lesson?" And Watson waves his hand in the air and yells, "Me, me, I wanna prove myself, since I screwed up so badly at Crowe's abode..."
And Vera, dear, darling, was that an AGEist comment? How reprehensible! Shall we blow this out of proportion as badly as you did with my smart-aleck comment about Crowe? Do you hate all old people? Wanna take away their social security? A proponent of euthenasia, are you? Look, look, Vera hates all elders, see, she made a vicious comment about senior moments!
RE: "And Vera, dear, darling, was that an AGEist comment?"
WTF are you talking about, AC?
Oh, I see, my first comment in this thread.
Well, Vera is certainly a senior, and undoubtedly older than the Col...and I don't think it's in the same catagory as your racist blatherings, dear.
Though, at this point Vera is more offended by AC's fictions 'n fantasies about the Manson case which, as the Col pointed out, waste space.
While I realize this may be taxing for you, I am asking you to THINK.
Why is the presumption being made that the murders were based upon whom Charles knew, rather than whom one of the killers knew?
You are still operating under the premise that orders were being given by Charles, and attempting to link him to occupants of the Cielo Drive home. Think outside of the box. How do we know for certain that the murders weren't based on some other relationship between one of the killers and one of the victims?
For example, there is evidence that Patricia knew Ms. Folger thru a free clinic.
I recall seeing the Geraldo interview where Charlie made vague comments about a black book. Alas, Geraldo was too preoccupied in getting into a dick swinging contest with his subject to latch on to what was being said.
AC is correct that it could have been anyone of the killers who had a link to the victims. This case really went to shit the second Tex couldn't be dragged out of his home state to be put on trial with the others. Does anyone really think the Bug would have got such a hard on for Manson if he could have got his hands on Tex first?? The mental gymnastics Bug had to perform to try fit a motive for Charlie's involvement really clouded the waters, plus when Tex was finally put on trial rather than tell what he knew, Bug had already created the "Charlie brainwashed me into doing it" defense for him.
Scramblehead said...
MrPoirot?
Who ARE you and why are you here?
The little black book is not fiction. Patchett took it. It's real.
Leno may not have "lived" at the house when True lived next door. He grew up in that house and it was still owned by his family. He spent a lot of time there and knew the neighborhood.
True had A LOT more involvement with "The Family" than just some guy they partied with a few times.
Anything's possible.
Mr Poirot replies:
No. ANYTHING is not possible. You can't just make stuff up while ignoring facts. You're writing silly things like White Rabbit did.
No I'm not just making things up or writing silly white rabbit tales.
Talk to Phil Kaufman. I have.
Talk to Patchett's wife about the little black book. I have.
Until you actually TALK to people involved in the case, and find out facts that aren't mentioned in books, you should refrain from assuming that other people (like me) are just making things up.
As far as Altobelli being a target? Hah, that's as idiotic as what most of you are saying.
I also knew Rudi. Talked to him several times (in person) for several hours.
Get off your "Blame Manson For Everything" trip. Those of you who constantly come back to exploring a new theory that has Manson at the head of the plotting table, the only thing I can say is... if you keep wishing for a bogey man, you will eventually get one...in bed next to you...and you'll deserve it.
The law is not on your side. The REAL bogey men are the people who run this country and the cops who hit the streets to harass people for ridiculous non-criminal acts.
Wake up and smell the deception. Most "heroes" are actually villains.
You mean the little black book that nobody has ever seen?
Sorry to hear the cops have been so mean to you. It breaks my heart.
Mr. Poirot, I posted on another thread about Leno bying the house from his mother...so it is indeed possible that Leno and Harold True had met at some point.
And so what is the point of the little black book if the killers didn't snag it? If Frank Patchett has it, how did he get his hands on it? Was it just lying around Waverly Drive in the aftermath of the murders? Did he acquire it from Spahn Ranch afterwards?
How would it be the motive if for some reason an LAPD dude ended up with it?
Who said that IT was the motive?
Manson talked about the little black book in a few interviews.
Noone knew anything about it until Patchett's wife revealed that he took it (among other items) and still has it.
Cops TAKE souvenirs from crime scenes. They took the sex tapes from Cielo. They also took a bunch of slides and pictures from Roman and Sharon's private collection.
Cops are pigs for the most part. Nothing new.
So, Scram Head, Patchett's wife told YOU her husband took the black book from the LaB house and that's your corroboration of Manson's claim that he was sent to get a black book?
Ok, under what circumstances did this woman tell you that? And what was her name? And when and where did the conversation take place?
I simply find it hard to believe.
Scramblehead said...
Who said that IT was the motive?
Manson talked about the little black book in a few interviews.
Noone knew anything about it until Patchett's wife revealed that he took it (among other items) and still has it.
Cops TAKE souvenirs from crime scenes. They took the sex tapes from Cielo. They also took a bunch of slides and pictures from Roman and Sharon's private collection.
Cops are pigs for the most part. Nothing new.
Mr Poirot replies:
There you go again making stuff up. The cops returned the film to Polanski.
True only lived next to the Labianca house for a few months. Charlie knew of the house from partying at True's place. The connection is Charlie knew about the seclusion of the houses from being next door partying. Charlie never met Leno nor did Tex. The little black book is like Obama's birth certificate: it's nonexistant. Either produce it or stop making stuff up about the black book's existance or significance.
the little black book existed. alice labianca, leno's first wife found it while cleaning after the murders. she then gave it to patchett who said it disappeared. a set of pictures were given back to the tate family, by lisa statman. she felt they belonged to them. they are the photo's taken the week of the murders. she claimed she had got them from bill nelson, who had just stolen the crime scene and autopsy from patchett. these were the pictures most likely in found in the camera while the police were investigating. these photo's disappeared while in patchett's custody as well.
The police returned SOME of the film to Polanski. Anything incriminating of the wealthy and famous likely went up in flames. Anything kinky was likely the main focus of the next office party -- THEN went up in flames.
Not true. Police returned a film to Polanski of him and his wife in bed. The Polanski house was not looted by police. The police were desperately trying to find the murderers of the Cielo victims.
Helter Skelter man
Not sure what to say here. I know personally scramblehead and believe everything he has to say.
Furthermore Mr Poirot you seem to be regurgitating the BUG novel as fact and you will always be wrong if you do so.
Here we go ...Harold True speaks...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Y3ADkY2cg
CM went to the 2 houses were they told him no...
surely LLB had an argument with CM well yes ...probably...
Soo Col ? ...what do you say about that video, did you see it before ?
Col you have spent years trying to create your unique version of TLB. You think Tate was a drug burn retaliation and Labianca was a mob hit by Charlie. Sorry but I've never heard any of the killers back up your versions. Ive spent a lot of time reading your versions over the past 5 years. I really can't see why you make claims that are never once backed up by any of the killers or Family members. I really don't give a rats ass if Bug ever existed or not. You know darn well that Charlir flipped his lid after Bobby, Mary and Sandy ended up in jail only s few days after he thought he had murdered Crowe. Within minutes of this triple jailing dilema on the day Charlie got back from Easelen Inst Charlie and the girls concocted the copycat murder spree of TLB in order to get Bobby off. I believe you know this to be the case yet you continually try to write your own script that has nothing to do with the events that are backed up by every person involved. Not a single Family member has ever substantiated your claims even after over 40 years. Not one person ever testified about a mob hit or drug burn in any of the many murder trials that lasted nearly 9 years. Most of these trials Bug was not involved with.
Didnt sebring live close? maybe they were gonna get him that night also but since he was there they didnt have to. Which may be why they didnt do more than the one house. They didnt have to?
just a thought.
MrPoirot, you are hereby ordered to LEAVE.
This blog is about searching for the truth. It's not about parroting all the typical bullshit disinformation.
Why were all these people killed?
THAT'S what we're all trying to figure out.
Manson wasn't a murderer. He was a career criminal and a con. He had a little too much fun playing the role that so many people around him constantly projected in his direction. He got sloppy and found himself in the middle of an out-of-control and deadly storm. He could've PREVENTED what happened, but he wasn't the force behind it. He was a force within it.
The case got hijacked by those whose main interest was dropping the curtain on all the movements that defined the '60s. Hendrickson referred to them as "Judicial Gangsters."
And guess what? It worked. To this day, Manson is known as "The Man Who Killed The '60s."
If you want to find the answers to your questions about the murders, stop trying to tie Manson to every little loose end. It won't work - an it's the main reason all these questions remain unanswered.
Keep walking in circles and see how far you get.
How come no one ever answers questions here when they're confronted for specifics?
I ask again, Scam-Head: "Patchett's wife told YOU her husband took the black book from the LaB house and that's your corroboration of Manson's claim that he was sent to get a black book?
Ok, under what circumstances did this woman tell you that? And what was her name? And when and where did the conversation take place?"
?????????
Has anyone ever considered that the loon squad was heading to the poolhouse that night and speeder Tex (the only one who apparently knew the plan) had his hair-triggered pulled by his encountered Parent?
If (and I emphatically stress IF) the purpose of Ceilo was an attempt to create a copycat alibi for Bobby, Garretson and his pad makes far more sense than the main house--hippy, stoner, possibly-gay, probably dealing schlub. Sounds like a sure-fire stand-in for Hinman. Get in, rough him up, rub him out and scoot after writing hippy-cryptic crap on the walls and maybe raiding his fridge.
But then Tex runs into Parent. Speeders are unpredicatible, paranoid, violent, and have the attention span of a retarded fruit-fly. So he freaks, pops Parent, makes the snap decision that if whacking a hippy is good for Bobby, a bloodbath must be ten times better.
Just a thought. Not claiming any inside knowledge or anything.
Thanks for listening.
"So he freaks, pops Parent, makes the snap decision that if whacking a hippy is good for Bobby, a bloodbath must be ten times better."
Or more probably Susan Atkins convinces the agitated Tex to switch targets--but I suggest that because I think Atkins was a Lady Macbeth figure who was the real psycho of the bunch (personally I think she more than anyone was responsible for the Hinman fiasco).
Again, just specklatin'
Scramblebrain:
Please leave!
ColScott said...
Not sure what to say here. I know personally scramblehead and believe everything he has to say.
Furthermore Mr Poirot you seem to be regurgitating the BUG novel as fact and you will always be wrong if you do so.
8:07 AM, June 15, 2011
Mr Poirot replies:
Col you are genetically predisposed to lie.
Yet I admire you and your celebrity website. I will meet you anywhere, anytime. Please tell me where Col. I'll meet you my friend. I think I owe it to you. I swear I'll meet you dear sir.
Anybody else wanna mess with me?
326 ruth vista rd
lexinton SC
Come get me!!!!!@
Scramblehead what is your addrress?
Col?
Post your address!!! TRIBE LEADER!!
Mr Chosen One.
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