He wasn't.
Referring to the last post, for Rudy Guede to have entered the cottage and murdered Meredith Kercher without Amanda Knox letting him in he would have to have suction cup hands.
He doesn't.
The basic premise of this Blog is that we don't know the motive of TLB because BUGliosi was BUGfuck insane and invented a motive to promote himself.
He did.
SO
There is a new book out called RECLAIMING PARKLAND. It is about the JFK assassination. Because BUG wrote a shit book about it he was supposed to get his own Chapter. But the lawyers cut it out.
Our friends at Feral House have posted it.
The Col has put it into Dropbox for you.
Let's read and discuss.
28 comments:
This is really interesting,Col. I'm working through it.
What strikes me most is that Manson and Bugliosi were of the same ilk, they were both con men.
This is the most interesting thing I have read in a long time...
Mama Cass hmmmm- I always thought she was in the middle somehow in the beginning lol :) at least of how they all met.
I am not sure about copy cat motive but you cant help but notice that Bobby and TLb were all very similar. 1 guy with several girls- stabbing and then writing in blood.(even the second aborted murder the night of the Labiancas- he sent Clem with two girls)then leaving with nothing of real value which would make it appear to be the result theft. ( Unless they killed Bobby for his vehicles?)
he sent the same types of groups, and they committed crimes in similar style.
Also for all those who think the motive was theft or drugs- they left an awful amount at the scene versus what they took with them no?
But the fact that he had Linda point out a location makes me wonder if he wasn't just looking for places to kill people and that there was no predisposed place in mind when he started out. You can make an argument for a motive for TLB and suggest why he picked those two places and try to put them together in some common motive, and I am almost there with you....
but then he asks Linda to take them to a place and person he knew nothing about and that fits in more with him being random than him following any kind of grand plan. No?
Bang freaking on. Look at the drugs that were there. All the hippie drugs were BEL imports. The cocaine was more of a mob thing. Cultures collide...BAM! Watch the bodies hit the floor!
The hippie/mafia, not "the hippie mafia?"
Look up "square" in any good hippie dictionary and you will find a photo there of Vincent Bugliosi.
Patty's point being that Vince's paradigmatic frame of ref was sooooooo different from that of the left, the world from which the entire situation arose, that Helter Skelter was never anything close to "real." A model, yes. A good model that makes sense? No. A myth, because his narrative is born of his very specific worldview. Col, you have never been a stoner. Patty has: she has straddled a lot of social boundaries for a long time. From the corner I'm standing on, what happened was business. Just like Breaking Bad.
Great article, to bad it never really gets into the particulars on why BUG was way off base in his JFK theories. Anyone who believes in the Warren Commision report, has obviously never watched the zapota film, or is just plain blind.
Zapota, or Zapruder film?
Page 2: "Victor" Frykowski???
On page 9 I think he means to say 1962 Mets, not 1969.
Also on page 9: The judge would not let Manson represent himself. One has to wonder about the wisdom of that decision. Because it is hard to believe Manson could have done any worse. And, in fact, when the prosecution case was finished, and the time came for the defense to make a case, they made none. They rested their case when the prosecution was finished with theirs. This shocked everyone. Including the judge.
I do believe AustinAnn very recently argued that same point.
Today, one of the most controversial aspects of the Tate/LaBianca trial is the motive put forth for the crimes. And the motive was pure Bugliosi.
No, duh!
J. Miller Leavy, who was Stovitz’ superior, walked into the room. Having overheard some of the conversation, he had a revealing colloquy with Stovitz. He asked knowingly, “Vince getting excited?” Stovitz pointed up to a discolored acoustic tile in the ceiling. He then said, “He was just up there.” To which Leavy replied, “Sticking to the ceiling?” Stovitz capped it with, “Like a pizza.”55 This is an important anecdote for the reader to remember. Although both men appreciated Bugliosi’s skills as a prosecutor, they understood his innate excitability and flair for hyperbole.... Bugliosi appeared to believe in the Helter Skelter theory more than Manson did.
Isn't this what motivates most of us here?
77 grams of marijuana in the cabinet of the Tate living room
30 grams of hashish in the Frykowski/Folger bedroom
1 vial of cocaine on Sebring’s person
10 capsules of MDA (street name Sass) in the Frykowski/Folger bedroom
6 grams of marijuana in Sebring’s car
1 roach, two inches in length, in the living room
I'm as interested in the drug motive as anyone but sorry, even all together those are "personal" amounts.
this was years before the illegal war against Nicaragua, and the CIA’s concomitant attempt to fund that war by importing large amounts of cocaine into the USA. So how did Sebring get the cocaine?
So, cocaine only became widely available when the CIA did battle with the Nicaraguan Communists? That's fucking laughable!
As author Ed Sanders documents in his book, The Family, Tex Watson visited his friend Dean Morehouse, who was living at Cielo Drive, after Melcher moved out.
False
After the murders, Deanna [Martin] was interviewed by the LAPD. They knew about Manson giving her the ring. Bugliosi and Gentry mention Manson giving Deanna the ring in their book. But they don’t say where the gift-‐ giving occurred. Why? Deanna writes that Melcher cut a deal with Bugliosi so that Deanna would not testify at Manson’s trial. Apparently, this is how Melcher distanced himself from Manson. And if one does that, then one distances Manson from both the music and the drug scene. Which limits the alternative motives for the crimes.
This of course is assuming that Deanna Martin is credible and not just trying to sell books
Don't get me wrong, I am very interested in the drug angle, BUT THIS AUTHOR LEANS ON SANDERS & SCHRECK AS SOURCES - Red flags, anyone???
Her boyfriend, who was with her at the time, was Joe Dorgan. Dorgan was a member of the motorcycle gang the Straight Satans.
Unsubstantiated
Of course those are "personal" amounts. Its the combination that's compelling. Do you think each one (hash, weed, mda, coke) came from a different guy, or were they bundled together? Yeah all kinds of people were coming and going. Were all of them separate "connections," or....?
Also you can "deal" large amounts of drugs without ever having to keep it at your own place for too long. There is always someone who will hold your stash for you. When Patty was just barely 21, she sublet a place for the summer where a garbage bag full of weed was weighed out into several boxes of sandwich bags. Patty gladly took one of said baggies in turn for her hospitality, which included fresh, homemade lemonade.
Patty's point being, the drugs that were found were "lagniappe" from friends/suppliers who may have had something larger in mind.
That's gotta be the funniest sentence ever:, "...As author Ed Sanders documents in his book..."
That Fug.
Bob (Zimmerman) Dylan and The Bug share a hometown. Interesting.
Hey Vera :)
I said it was the most interesting thing I have read in years. As Matt pointed out though- there are some errors- But if you think it has some significance- why not share with us?
I have a couple questions actually while you are here maybe you can help with.
Who are you? who is Robin Olson and what is her significance?
Why do so many people come into the rooms with cryptic messages indicating they know something- and not tell us what they know?
Why is this post so important in your opinion??
Why hint at knowing something when you have to realize so many are here for answers? Are you a tease?
I respect those who came before me on these blogs - and those who know more about this than I do. There are plenty of both. What I don't respect are people who come in and act like they are "In the know" and criticize others- yet don't share any information or enlighten us any further than telling us we are wrong, dumb, or any of the other insults which are so freely tossed around...
If you know something - I would like to know as well please.You could end many years of curiosity for me and let me move on to other interesting mysteries. I am sure a few would be happy to see me move on- so you would be doing a favor for several :)
Forgive me my ignorance- and help me to see what is going on here. If you know....
and one last question for anyone at all :)
Why do so many overweight people on these blogs talk so much about people being overweight?
;)
In such a superficial culture as ours, a lot of store gets placed on appearance… as a result overweight people get kinda defensive about their bigness… and the best defence is often offence or (if you're not an aggressive type) making jokes about your own weight.
I guess it's a bit like Neal Cassady's great line… "pugilists wind up with cauliflower ears, knife-fighters get scars, good drivers lose their licenses".
As for this post, I enjoyed reading it. The guy writes well and he's gathered together many of the threads that anyone who disbelieves Helter Skelter (and has studied the case for any time) has already seen and digested.
As for the dirt on Bugliosi, it too has all been dished out before (by the good Col on this very blog in fact) and reaffirms that the Bug is indeed a piece of work. It's all quite well put together but (as Matt & Starship point out) he gets a few things wrong and takes unproved theory as fact a couple of times. He's obviously a newbie to the case.
it's an interesting indicator though that a writer coming so lately to the HS saga (without perhaps as many preconceptions about the whole sorry business as us obsessives) should find Shreck more believable than Bugliosi. I think I agree with him.
Ok… let me rephrase that in the interests of clarity….
Shreck's THEORIES more believable than Bugliosi's. If you've read his book, it's pretty much the standard drug burn blag which personally I find much more believable than Helter Skelter. Ignorant? If you say so...
I was a US Navy Corpsman (medic) attached to the Marine Corps. Many times I had to qualify on the pistol and rifle ranges. I shot expert. We shot at targets up to 500 meters down range. Oswald's shots were 88 yards. I could teach a kid for a half hour and that kid could make those shots. Those shots were not difficult. I do however believe that there was a conspiracy.
Many have stated "drug burn" as the motive. Manson himself has given it as the reason for Hinman's murder.
Matt is correct about the '62 Mets analogy. They were terrible in every way, as were the defense attorneys. If they had been like the '69 Mets who upset the great Baltimore Orioles in that year's World Series, Manson, et. al would have walked.
Bobby, there are many reasons why that might be so: fear of retribution, the criminal's code, federal gag order...
WHATS ON THEM TAPES?
I always figured the meeting with watkins and the mobster was a mr big stakeout.
I come from the JfK community. Jim diEugenio is highly a respected historian and runs CTKA. In a recent-ish interview I heard Jim say he could have written for ages about BUG and how he railroaded Manson but he just didn't have the time or resources as the reclaiming parkland book was about the gross movie parkland and BUG making his usual mess.
I imagine that if the book was about Manson and thee BUG then it would have been magnificent and at the high level we have come to know from Jim's work.
I do hope he does write a book on the subject one day. I hope this goes a little way to explaining why it is not up to the standards of full time Manson researchers like yourselves.
P.s, this site is great and I enjoy all of your posts. Thanks.
Frankie.
What was Bugliosi's military specialty when he was in the Army? Anybody know?
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