There seems to be, by quite a few posters who use non de plumes in the comments, a basic intrinsic misunderstanding. They seem to think I give a shit what they have to say.
The great SF author Harlan Ellison once pointed out that everyone was NOT entitled to their own opinion. This is something idiots say all the time. Harlan points out that everyone is entitled to their own INFORMED opinion. I mean, if you asked me about your gall bladder I might have an opinion but it would be fucking nuts for you to listen to it, and not right for me to voice it at all.
I have done first hand research. I have talked to main players. I have read, and vetted the main books on the case. I don't believe that I even know what I am talking about. Why in the world would I accept what somebody called Poirot would believe as truthful, or even worthy of interest?
I have studied the novel Helter Skelter. I know what can be proven and what BUG made up. I know what Sanders got right and what he got wrong and what he didn't give a shit about.
I have blogged for many years and I was there back when Ronson and Nelson breathed.
If you want to PROVE something new, or different, then PROVE it. Otherwise stfu when you get mocked and ignored.
USE COMMON SENSE PEOPLE.
People don't sell clock radios door to door late at night.
Nine month pregnant women don't hang out in their bedrooms with former lovers late at night.
People don't start race wars with random killings that the cops never linked to a black person.
People don't slaughter strangers because some short punkass commanded them.
Gary didn't inherit any money.
If you don't want to accept BASIC HUMAN TRUTHS then you don't have to post here. If you have a defensible argument that helps us understand the true motives, I love you.
But I blog NOT for any of you. I blog because I have to. I have to understand how a woman and milkman abusing fantasist got away with this. So it never happens again.
61 comments:
The "Bug" was 100% right in his "novel" and you have NO right to oppose and/or suggest otherwise.
He was a DEPUTY DA for LA County for fuck's sake! How dare you even doubt - let alone QUESTION - his accuracy and/or authority on a case in which he PREVAILED and won several convictions for IN A COURT OF LAW?!
The problem with you conspiracy theorist, anti-American anarchist lonely attention seekers, is that you are totally unsatisfied with your boring minimum-wage jobs (and late welfare checks), and you need someone to blame. Who better than an upstanding representative of the local or federal government?
You spoiled, entitled whiners are all equipped with the same hatred- filled propaganda.
Bugliiosi FABRICATED the motive for the the Tate-LaBianca murders??? Next you'll be saying that Oswald didn't kill JFK!
Grow up and take the damn blue pill already!
You are bordering on sounding like a domestic terrorist. And I think we've seen more than enough of your kind to last a lifetime.
Get off your lazy welfare ass, look in the mirror, put your right hand over that empty space that was reserved for your heart, and recite the goddamned pledge of allegiance!!!
Either that or you're welcome to vacate and take up residency on a Paris sidewalk begging for change from American tourists during the summer.
Ungrateful haters!!!
Nice post, Scramblehead.
Col said (amongst other things) that:
I have read, and vetted the main books on the case.
This is fine for US readers who understand vetting to be 'making a careful and critical examination of (something)' (definition courtesy my MBP).
Brits and others might be confused, however, as they use the verb 'vet' to mean 'investigate (someone) thoroughly, esp. in order to ensure that they are suitable for a job requiring secrecy, loyalty, or trustworthiness: each applicant will be vetted by police' (definition ibid).
The Col may be an American Movie Producer, but his avatar pic is all decked up in UK military kit, so maybe he's confused too.
Yet another example of two nations separated by a common language, and one I've come across before in editing work. Just thought I'd mention it, as there is enough misunderstanding, some wilful, on this blog already.
FrankM
clark ronson.
the good old days.
great messageboard that came to a strange end.
i wonder where he is these days.
still chasing neve and ruthann maybe.
he's posting under different names, or so i hear. i dont know that as fact though, let me make that clear.
Now that I've been posting again here and there im remembering there were a lot of good, no great boards through the years. Some really, really interesting people have come and gone.
he's posting under different names, or so i hear. i dont know that as fact though, let me make that clear.
Now that I've been posting again here and there im remembering there were a lot of good, no great boards through the years. Some really, really interesting people have come and gone.
I shall make the point again that while agreeing with the Col about the following:
People don't sell clock radios door to door late at night.
Nine month pregnant women don't hang out in their bedrooms with former lovers late at night.
People don't start race wars with random killings that the cops never linked to a black person.
People don't slaughter strangers because some short punkass commanded them.
Gary didn't inherit any money.
that Bugliosi, had he been able to prove any other motive other than helter skelter, would have indeed. He seems to be vilified for being clever enough to have used what cards he was dealt to make a convincing enough case to convict a guy who wasn't even at the scenes when actual murder took place. I certainly wish that Bugliosi had persevered and actually tried to discover the actual motive, but I do not share in the vilification of him that he didn't.
You do not share in the vilification of him that he didn't?
Are you kidding?
It's YOUR tax money that gets wasted by corrupt politicians, cops, prosecutors, etc.
It's a huge miscarriage of justice and a huge blow to our "democracy" whenever that happens.
Bugliosi KNEW what he was doing and he did it intentionally. The case wasn't about Manson or Sharon Tate - it was about HIM!
If you could only get your hands on a rare file called "The Vince Bugliosi Story," your perspective would be dramatically altered for the better of all mankind.
Been a long time lurker. Excellent blog, Col, very informative and thought provoking. Hope I can add to some of the discussions in the days ahead. What's this rare Bugliosi file about?
In his book of truth Bugliosi implied Manson stopped his watch by looking/grinning at him.
enough said
The Vince (or maybe Vimcent) Bugliosi Story. Look it up. Maybe someone out there is selling it. It's an extremely hard-hitting, and factual (evidence included) expose on the man PRE Helter Skelter.
The man is nuts. And evilly perverted/corrupted.
He has a very funny voice though!
http://tatelabianca.blogspot.com/2006/06/bugging-installment-one.html
Bugliosi KNEW what he was doing and he did it intentionally. The case wasn't about Manson or Sharon Tate - it was about HIM! says Scramblehead.
Ok, so what? What injustice is there? Again, if VB could have proved another motive he certainly would have. Which is more believable...a race war and a secret river in the desert, or a drug deal gone bad among the principals.
Frank, the Col's avatar is a picture of the late, great Graham Chapman from Monty Python's Flying Circus.
To starship:
Bugliosi had zero interest in truth and/or justice.
Read the file and you'll know what I mean.
COLONEL - feel free to jump in any time. I'm currently in WI and too busy to get into it.
BUG wasn't and still isn't about what's right and/or wrong.
I thought everyone knew that already - obviously not.
Did starship miss the "Linda kasabian puppet show?"
Scramble- I am not going to beat on an idiot.
Starship's point seems to be "they were guilty so who cares how many lies were told to convict them?"
Very National Socialist of him.
It's not that I don't care how many lies were used to convict them, it's really only one lie, and it's a big one: MOTIVE, that I really care about. If VB could have or would have known what it is, and could have proved it, then really, the ultimate end results would have been the same, no? Except for the possibility that Linda Kasabian wouldn't have been granted immunity.
I don't doubt all these things you say about VB...I've read the Cols blog for years...know he has done some good research on him. But VB is not the reason all those people were killed in SoCal in 1969 so I have, as they say, bigger fish to fry.
Frank, the Col's avatar is a picture of the late, great Graham Chapman from Monty Python's Flying Circus.
Thanks for this - in fact, I had recognised this though often wondered about Col's choice of avatar. But then I've often wondered about the Col.
Yes, Chapman was a very talented man - openly gay and secretly alcoholic. The Python team are making an animated movie about him I understand - if Eric Idle comes on board, that is.
If your tastes are elsewhere Python is also a programming language, a gun and a rather dangerous reptile.
FrankM
It matters because anyone related to the slain deserve to know just WHY their loved ones died. It matters because Charles Manson's guilt in these crimes has never been conclusively proven or debunked. It matters because Chinzillia escaped being punished for her part in the killings.
Speaking of Linda - She was, is and shall forever be Bug's puppet. I'm shocked evilliz hasn't found a shot of them in court with the Bug's arm up her ass.
I knew that to be in the Col's house you had to believe, fanatically if you will, that Vince was pure evil and Helter Skelter a complete crock.
I now appreciate the Col for laying out the other criteria as well.
I really do wish I could party in the Col's house because I do see Vince as mostly an asshole, and HS as mostly nonsense. But there are elements...oh well, I've been down that road.
I just argue the same thing all the time, my belief that Vince and HS were secondary in convicting Manson - that Charlie convicted Charlie with his behavior during the trial and the idiot girls obviously doing everything he told them. I'd give anything to be able to poll the Manson jurors and know if that thesis could be substantiated.
But the Col arguing that folk don't kill on the command of some punk ass really is a difficult one to accept. I've seen the power of 'groupthink' firsthand in my life and have seen to many people abdicate their free will and even rationale thought to someone else's command.
Maybe I am just plain guilty of giving Leslie and Katie to much credit for their later life testimony. They just seem sincere to me.
Shoot away.
Charlie acted an imbecile at the trial and allowed Bug to play him like a violin. I think we all can agree on that.
The thing is, Manson had just spent two years being able to wrap his words around people and have them hanging on his every sentiment. But what worked on a bunch of stoned hippie chicks cut no ice with a judge and jury and he was just too pigheaded to accept this.
Starship you are right!
I don't care if Bugliosi pulled the legs off spiders in his down hours. I don't care if he milked cat-nuts.
MacArthur may have dressed up in high heels. WHO FUCKING CARES!
They both rid the world of vermin.
Doesn't matter if Bugliosi later stalked his "milkman" or later chased a "lady down". Why do you ride this crest? Why try to make yourself look better? It only makes you look sad and stupid.
This guy was the best DA that ever was. He convicted a well-known drug user, cult leader, thief, pimp, auto theft leader, and cult-leading murder in the most notorious trial in American history.
And Charlie was a murderer. No doubt about it. And so were his minions. They all confessed. Except Dr. Drool. And we all know he did it.
He got them all!!! My hat is off to him. And I don't care WHAT motive he used. He could have used soiled toilet paper for all I care. The fact is, he got them off the streets. Period.
And Col, I used to think you were a palpable guy, but now I'm thinking you're just some kinda pinko softie.
Shame on you. You used to have conviction. Now, you're just sitting around drooling or some shit.
Pathetic.
Cudos to Bugliosi!!!
Your serve, buttwipe!!!
Man, I hate being a centrist, but I just never have been able to see VB as either a hero or a villian. I see him as just a guy doing his job, he was a salesman, and he felt he had to sell the jury on HS in order to get Manson off the street. Does VB have skeletons? As others have said, who doesn't and who cares.
The Col hates me for saying this, but because VB wrote the book and got rich and famous off of it, I think he gets far to much notoriety in the Manson story. He's a great self-promotor, for sure, but I will go down swinging arguing that Manson did not get convicted primarily by VB or HS.
The Bug should be a footnote by now.
well, not a footnote, that is stupid. but certainly a secondary character.
OMG! The idiot robot squad has hijacked this blog.
The "vermin" that "VB rid the world of" has more intelligence in his little pinky toe than all of your empty heads combined.
How does that make you feel?
Manson acted like an imbecile during the trial and the "idiot" girls kept doing what he told them to?
No, robots, Manson acted like any UNPROGRAMMED United States citizen SHOULD act when their rights are being completely and unconstitutionally violated in a court of law.
What you robot idiots don't understand is that VB vs. Manson is a metaphor for US Government vs. John Q Public. It starts with Manson and eventually it'll be YOU or someone very close to you.
Your fatal flaw, idiot robots, is that you constantly take the bait and set your sights on the latest Manson to persecute rather than having the insight or the balls to persecute the REAL vermin - the people running this country.
Manson wasn't a first class citizen. And yea he was involved in a lot if criminal activity throughout his life. But he was not and is not in breach of contract. He doesn't collect your taxes. He doesn't make the laws only so HE can break them in order to send whomever he wants to the gas chamber in order to boost HIS political career. And guess what? He wasn't a murderer.
So, idiot robots, go ahead and continue to let the latest Bugliosi off the hook because you're so afraid of the boogeyman that you'll gladly sell your soul for "protection."
And continue to scratch your heads while this country is constantly being undermined and destroyed by the powers that be. Smile, robots, as you wipe your ass with what's left of the constitution while you're scraping pennies to pay $5 a gallon for gas - and the vermin sleep comfortably with not a care in the world.
Scramblehead,
Manson DID act like an idiot during the trial.
I don't disagree for a second that he had the deck majorly stacked against him unfairly. It was 1969, he was a life long con, he had long hair and a beard, he was smack bang in the middle of a bunch of murders and was a good decade older than everyone else. The Establishment saw the perfect scapegoat to discredit the hippie movement and they pounced. In a word he was FUCKED. And I think he knew this. Deep down this went far beyond a few murders (no disrespect to the victims). This was about America wanting to take back it's youth.
Blame this man! He steals your children from you, force feeds them LSD and brainwashes them to kill members of the society he hates.
What what percieved as brainwashed behaviour in court, was infact 3 young women who had lost total touch of reality through excessive drug usuage.
But to beat the system Manson had to play the same game as the system. And he wouldn't do so. He chose to play the martyre role. Maybe what I see as idiociy was him prefering to face death then compromise his belief?
Manson viewed the trial as a mockery of justice so his actions became a very mockery of the trial. But with every zany action or outburst, he just gave the Bug more rope to hang him with.
That is the sign of a man very brave or very stupid.
Adam,
Very well said. I agree 100% with exception to the idiot part. He was fighting a totally corrupt system for his life, and he got enraged at how casually the court as a whole was stomping all over his RIGHTS. He was acting out and he had every right to (just like you I would have the right to if we were in that situation).
And yes he was very brave. People who live and think in the box won't allow themselves the ability to read between the lines. Regardless of his faults, the man was quite brilliant and incredibly talented. Too bad the brilliance and talent were wasted on life in solitary confinement. (where he spends the majority of his time to this day)
But if things would've went the other way, we wouldn't be posting on this blog - there would be no story.
Scramblehead
I read your first and last post and you have either D.I.D or are just oppositional by nature. I feel it is the latter, and for that there is no cure.
No La-de-la
The first post was a joke. Making fun of all the idiot robots that overpopulate this blog.
Idiot robots were those who followed this middle aged petty thief right into a life behind bars ( and not the good kind where you can get frozen drinks with fruit and umbrellas)
I think Charlie was a very basically stupid man, and if he spent his life in jail to prove a point- then he is even more stupid than I thought..
More likely a man with the maturity of a child acted his true colors when he was backed into a corner he could not lie, steal, or connive his way out of...
A smart person would not have paid such a heavy price for such minimal involvement, and a smart person would have kept his mouth shut, and done what he had to for his freedom...
Charlie was incapable of that- period....
but you can make up reasons, and give him credit he isn't due if you wish....
blindly support a man regardless of what he did, or didnt do, and regardless of what he was or wasn't responsible for...
because you are SURE he was right..
thats what most of the family did...
and to me- that is what made THEM -
Mindless Idiot Robots...
Maybe - and this is just a maybe..
Im going way out on a limb here...
He was always fighting the system because he was always breaking the law??
if he wasn't raping and stealing, and taking drugs with people half his age....
He wouldn't have had to fight the system so much....
I guess he was a very brave guy for not taking shit from the establishment- and sacrificing himself for the greater good lol
Why I dont get to deal with people like this in real life and business is a shame...
I could take even more vacations...
EVERYONE should read these type of posts...
because all of us wonder what type of people could have followed a guy like Charlie..
read some of these posts and listen to people ...
Then Go back and listen to a utube of Star...
it STILL happens...
at least back then we could use excuses like the times, and a certain amount of ignorance...
There really is no good excuse for people to support this behavior today- especially after all we know now they didn't know then...
If Charlie put himself in jail then that's o.k. with me too
as long as he stays where he belongs, and where by his own admission he is at home
crushed really :)
takes a great guy to walk into a room and insult everyone...
Good for you
speaking of insults, Saint, why the cheap shot over at T&L? I thought we were past that crap. "Not what he was cracked up to be"???
I have never done crack.
Joking.
It sure is entertaining to read the posts of someone (scrambled) who sees Charles Manson as a hero.
It's gotta be lonely out there.
Unfortunately any notion of "Manson" as heroic &/or Messianic rapidly fades when you bring to mind the final horrific moments of little baby Tate & his mummy at the hands of the great man's minions.
The failings of democracy & modern culture can be argued separately.
Outsiders don't get extra points by aligning with baby killers.
For those who have not seem this check out www.crimemagazine.com/my-friendship-charles-manson
Interesting stuff.
I was joking with them...
we are past that-
Im trying to stick to the points and discuss the posts nowadays....
But some people just wont stop with the personal stuff..
I have learned though it isn't up to me to police rooms...
it just sucks because it really distracts from the otherwise great conversations that still happen all the time in this room...
but what can you do???
try to ignore it and move on I guess
Even more idiot robot talk from even more idiot robots.
*DECIPHERING IDIOT ROBOT TALK*
Lesson 1:
Idiot robots CONSTANTLY put words in the mouths of people who speak the truth.
Exhibit 1- leary7 said "It sure is entertaining to read the posts of someone (scrambled) who sees Charles Manson as a hero."
Read ALL of my posts, idiot robot, and show the class a single instance In which I referred to Manson as a hero.
Lesson 2:
Idiot robots are CONSTANTLY screwing up the facts of the case while trying to prove their ridiculously miserable points hence further perpetuatuating Bugliosi's fictitious self-serving novel "Helter skelter."
Exhibit 2- Cease2 said "Unfortunately any notion of "Manson" as heroic &/or Messianic rapidly fades when you bring to mind the final horrific moments of little baby Tate & his mummy at the hands of the great man's minions."
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it Charles WATSON, rather than Charles MANSON, who was the actual baby killer? Wasn't it HE who was present that night on Cielo drive and NOT Manson? Didn't HE drive the car that night? And wasn't he the one who was instructing the girls that night while they were on their murderous rampage? Didn't he tell Linda to wait by the car and didn't HE tell Sadie to write something in blood on the door? Doesn't that make them HIS minions that night?
You can claim they were playing follow the leader... But the "leader" WASN'T EVEN THERE!
So, idiot robots, let's recap tonight's lessons for the class. You need to put words in other people's mouths in order to convince yourself that black & white thinking is the right way of thinking and there is no in-between. You also need to convince yourself that you are living in a perfect world where the authorities (I.e., courts, judges, prosecutors, governments, news media, cops, novelists, etc.) are always telling the truth and are not covering up anything for their own gains and at the expense of other people's lives.
Yes, idiot robots, the bottom line here is that YOU are the real minions because you are incapable of thinking for yourselves. You've taken the written and spoken word of the world's brainwashers/mind controllers and you ran with it without question.
And you wonder why America is in the worst condition it's been in all of our lifetimes.
I want to end this post (and hopefully this thread) with a nod to the great and mighty Col. for repeatedly quoting a significant morsel of truth - of which you idiot robots lack the insight to comprehend thus far - "You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion."
It's shades of grey. If you think Manson was guilty on all charges for the reasons stated you are in Bug land. If you think Manson was a poor inncent guy completly screwed by the system you are in AC land.
The truth MUST be somewhere inbetween.
My take based on facts, interviews, speculation and good old fashioned common sense;
1/ He did not order Bobbie to kill Gary. Bobbie himself has admitted this time and time again. However Manson's stupid act of bravado with a sword escalated a bad situation which indirectly ended with a murder so h must share a portion of the blame.
2/ I strongly feel he did not order the Tate massacre, this was Tex's show all the way. Listen to his interviews on the matter
"I'm gonna kill somebody"
"OK"
"What do you think of that?"
"Nothing"
"Do you want to come?"
"No. I'm not breaking the law this time".
If this is true than Manson is guilty, but of being morally bankrupt. He sat back and did nothing to stop it.
3/ By all accounts he was in the car the second night and helped tie up the victims. If the orignal intention was not to kill the LaBiancia's but rob them then Manson is guilty of being a fuckin' idiot to leave them in the hands of a bunch of people who had commited a bloodbath less than 24 hours previously. If they had a more sinister motive then he is indeed guilty of their murders. Notice Manson never directly addresses this part of the case in interviews. WHY WAS HE IN THAT CAR? Crack this and you've cracked the whole case.
4/ Shorty? Who the fuck knows? Ample reason for Manson wanting him dead. What was one more body at this time? Esp if it meant stopping him from spilling his guts on what had been going on. Alas everyone who says Manson particpated is know liar.
But giving him a large benefit of the doubt, why would Charlie be willing to spend the rest of his days behind bars in silence for a piece of human shit like Tex Watson?
Sorry Scramble. I've only been interested in this stuff for 40 years.
Which one's Manson again?
Ah yes, INFORMED OPINIONS. On that, Scramblehead, it seems we agree.
Scramble I will play this game with you for a minute...
I don't consider myself a mindless robot- but am sure it doesn't matter to you :)
I have made the argument myself quite a few times Charlie is over-rated as a serial killer and Tex is the one who really scares me...
If I were in my early twenties- I would have understood what Charlie was all about- and he was very honest about who he was... I would have been intrigued- but would have seen the waring signs, and kept a safe distance...
Tex I never would seen coming- good background, nice family- college education ( sort of...
much scarier to me...
but doesn't mean Charlie was a good guy either..
you ask us not to think in black and white...
cant you give in that even if Charlie wasn't the Killer on those two nights- he still wasn't a very good guy who broke many laws??
Can only one person be bad in a group?? we have to assign a leader???
I think there a few fruit cases involved in the family, and certainly some free-lance fruit caking was going on as well...
doesn't excuse Charlie for being a bad guy...
I also agree government is very corrupt and self serving- and that it deosn't matter who is President because the two parties will always put themselves and self-preservation for themselves and there families way of life's ahead of ours...
of course.. my life is sort of easy- so I cant complain much :)
but even while I know all of this is true...
and other bad things happen as well we aren't touching on...
Charlie raped people
Charlie stole things
Charlie attacked Gary with a Sword
Charlie shot Crowe in his belly
Charlie gave drugs to underage kids...
he is better off in jail...
Love,
St. Minionstance
P.S.- what in the whole wide world does it matter what bugs did before and after he was the prosecutor in this case???
It wouldn't matter who on the planet was assigned this case...
of the billions of possibilities of who could have worked in that office at that exact time...
it wouldn't matter who got the case- they would have been human- like the rest of us- and they would have had flaws- like the rest of us...
and if you are going to sit back and pick apart a persons flaws outside of the work place...
who would have been good enough for you to try the case?? you could point out forever whats wrong with poeple... so that means they cant do there job???
by the way-
you get a chance to decide that...
Do you vote???
lol If not you really shouldnt sit in judgement of those who take 40K a year to clean the garbage off the streets for us on a daily basis- and criticize the jobs they do when they do happen to come to your attention... you wouldn't pay any notice to them or the milkmen they stalk if they weren't on your radar for your own motivation...
Bugs was a jackass and a bad guy... I am with you
his book was interesting as hell though- I still re-read it once and awhile...
He took a phrase and morphed into a financial windfall for his own good....
shitty thing to do- but charlie didn't spend one breath trying to de-bunk it himself, so I should worry about it???
Let me let you in on a secret...
I am not a fan of Charlie Manson
I dont think he should have been railroaded- but I dont think he was railroaded...
He knew the score- he had been in jail...
he kept breaking the law- over and over.... putting himself in places and with poeple where he knew he did not belong... it caught up with him...
He Stole
He raped
He beat
He injured others
that is not the fault of BUGs or anyone else....
it just isn't
the smartest, fairest, most fearless, well trained attorneys...
don't all go to work for the LA DA's office... as assistant DA's... I venture the idea that - at least- those who pass on the money of private practice for this mostly thankless job- have at least some sense of civic duty... maybe not " Saints" like me- but they had options for sure, and chose to, at least, give the impression of public service.... when a guy like that wins the lottery- it hurts me alot less... and Bugs won the lottery with this one no doubt.. he saw it for what it was worth, and ran with it...
you weren't going to get the perfect person no matter who got assigned the case...
if you want to sit back 40 years later and take shots at there personal life's and personal flaws... it would be tough to find anyone who could make it through this type of scrutiny.
but that makes there work irrelevant????
how many of us would pass that test???
does it make what we do professionally meaningless
if we make mistakes in our every day lives???
maybe in some cases....
not in this one I say
but that is just my opinion
informed/uninformed...
I leave it to the reader to decide
and let me ask one last question maybe you dont consider...
what if you were a family member of one of the victims??? one of the MANY victims???
how many times did Charlie get arrested while on parole, and keep walking??? Tex, and Katie as well...
quite a few busts between them, and nobody could keep them locked up....
how many more families suffered as a result???
but after Bugs- those 5 didn't hurt anyone else...
They didn't get back out...
To those families he is a HERO :)
for all those who didn't die after that trial- who may have
maybe he even deserves some thanks???
( ok maybe that is pushing it lol)
There you go again molesting the facts in an eager attempt to create a legendary monster. The following quotes by St Circumstance will be highlighted by ** before and after the quote, and then my response will follow - in hopes that we can avoid even more confusion.
**Charlie raped people**
Who did he rape? Noone who spent any great deal of time with him has ever claimed that he raped anyone. There are no credible reports that ever raped anyone. There are only fringe cave dwellers who seek their 15 mins after the fact. They show up 20 or 30 or 40 years later and say "I was raped by Charles Manson. Do you want my autograph?"
Manson was only 5'5" short when fully extended - identical in size to Michael J. Fox. Have you ever heard of a 5'5" rapist?
Manson DIDN'T HAVE TO rape anyone. He had countless handfuls of women (including hollywood starlets) who desperately WANTED it from him. They came to him - not the other way around. Word on the ranch was that he was quite a master when it came to pleasing women. The female genitalia is extremely complex and the majority of men simply have no clue. This kind of buzz gets women really excited and compels them to pursue said love guru. After a while they start lining up. Trust me, I know. This talent, along with the loads of willing women, consequently made many inadequate men extremely jealous of said love guru. Jealousy leads to making up scandalous stories in an effort to undermine the reputation of said love guru.
**Charlie stole things**
Yes he did. No doubt about that - and he doesn't deny it.
His answer to that is a good one: "I live by the code of the outlaw. I give everything I have, and I take anything I want."
**Charlie attacked Gary with a Sword**
Attacked? It was more like a slice to the ear. It was a warning. They weren't there to kill him. Gary essentially ripped Bobby off by taking $2000 for a bad batch of Mescaline. When that happens, you give the money back. Gary didn't want to give the money back. Not a smart move when you are dealing with underworld types. Live by the sword, die by the sword. They pleaded with Gary for 3 days before things got out of hand and Gary got killed by Bobby. All Manson did was help Bobby by warning Gary that he was indeed playing with fire. He didn't heed the warning. He should have.
**Charlie shot Crowe in his belly**
Well where else do you shoot a HUGE black man that has you lifted off the ground, by the throat, against the wall, and is about to KILL YOU???
Manson threw himself onto the front lines for Tex in that little drama. Tex couldn't face the issue himself so Manson put his life on the line to rescue the chicana girl that Tex left there to die. How many people do you know that would do the same for you?
**Charlie gave drugs to underage kids...**
And??? Is there something wrong with that? RuthAnn was 14 and had a taste for marijuana. Manson obliged. Oh boy bring out the religious right and crucify him. She would be doing whatever drug she wanted anyway without his help or involvement. You make it sound like he was hanging out at preschools and sticking heroin syringes in the little kiddies while they're parents weren't watching. There's so much brainwashing and mind control in this country targeting kids from the time they are born. The best thing you can do for a kid is set their programmed mind FREE.
**he is better off in jail...**
And he would agree with you.
you dont argue - you defend...
that's a mind set- that I can never win out against...
the one point you did bother to argue..
set aside all the actual physical rape that DID occur...
he admits to having sex with Ruth, and Diane- minors almost half his age...
If that is not technically wrong enough for you- it obviously wont be morally wrong enough for you either...
so again- I cant win with a thought process like this...
We can agree though he is where he wants to be if not how deserving he is to be there, and that is good enough for me..
as long as he is there....
by the way- again- every post on this subject I have ever wrote states that I think Charlie is over- rated as a serial killer and Tex is the real monster...
but dont let the truth get in the way of ranting against me :)
what fun would that be
Gary should have heeded the waring and given everything he had to people who were robbing him in his own home...
people he had helped and done favors for???
that was his mistake- he didn't heed the warning lol
your right he deserved to have his ear almost cut off...
the nerve of him huh???
dude if this isnt a joke this is comical... you cant really think this way????
YES my slow little friend....
it is wrong to give drugs to children... Even if they ask for them
although I do admit it will cut down on the resistance when you try to penetrate there undeveloped little bodies...
so I guess He would take a flier on that one...
the willing ones were dirty and hairy and smelly with puss dripping out of there chaluches...
it was the clean and pretty ones who smelled nice he forced himself on...
.
There you go again. You have a very serious condition called in-the-box thinking. You are incapable of LISTENING and LEARNING. dud you not read what I wrote?
Who was robbing Gary in his own home? No one was. They were there collecting the money that he OWED.
Get your idiot robot head out of Bugliosi's ass and crank up your analytical machine (you know, the one you turned off when you swallowed that damn blue pill) and seek the truth rather than acting like a mindless parrot constantly repeating some lunatic power-hungry rapist's rhetoric. The rapist I refer to is BUG. But you wouldn't know that because you are too analytically LAZY to seek the file and READ it.
Once again... THINK FOR YOURSELF!
How about the boy that Charlie sodomized at knifepoint? I guess my thinking is so 'inside the box' that I would characterize that as rape.
And where do you get that Lotsapoppa was holding Charlie up against the wall by his neck, or that beautiful hollywood starlets wanted to do it with him?
Sorry, scramblehead, but your head is, well, certainly scrambled.
you win Scramble...
I am not smart enough to argue with you:)
Get your head out of your
ass scramblehead. You pathetic
little piece of shit punk.
How about the boy Charlie sodomized at knifepoint?
That happened in jail years before his noteriety.
Manson has said that the inmate wanted the sex, but not the stigma of being exposed as queer if they were caught.
They agreed Charlie would hold a weapon during the act, making it appear forced in the event they were discovered.
They were caught.
It went into the record as a sexual assualt.
So says Charlie.
Who knows.
Oh, so that sounds,....plausible...
SBuch--
Your last post was retarded. Please don't do that again. I can only tolerate one moron at a time.
Tradecraft. I don't really talk like this.
and we wonder how manson got people to follow him. 40+ years later manson is still brainwashing people-now people that have never met the man just look at scramblehead, just another minion of manson. what a smart person you are scramblehead i bet your family is mighty proud. you need to grow up.
Some of you miss the point period.
It doesn't matter BUG pulled this crap on scumbag murderers who deserved it. The fact that the BUG did it and got away with it, IS the issue. Yesterday it was Manson and some skanky girls, tommorow it could be you! Sitting on the couch watching your boob tube, all of a sudden 'the man' kicks in your door hauls you to jail, abuses each and every civic right you have, puts you in prison, and does such a good job at it that no one will ever let you out regardless of time served. This is the America that I fought in a war for? No, the BUG should be in the cell next to charlie!
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