Saturday, August 02, 2008

What If ?

The art of storytelling, be they novels, movies or comic books, is always asking "what if?"

These are some of my favorite "What Ifs?"

What are yours?

(Note- I am not putting down massive unlikelihoods like "What if Tex had a conscience?" Or "What if Charlie wasn't born to a prostitute?" Or even "What If Debra Tate had not been disowned?" Just tiny things that, if they happened might have made a difference.")

1- What if Willam Garretson was not horny late that night in August? [Steven would have gone home to bed and not been killed. There would have been no shooting at the gate. Garretson might actually have come out to investigate the noise- and been killed.]

2- What if Linda Kasabian had been an actual human and left a message the morning after the Tate killings, with the police that simply said "People at Spahn Ranch did it- look closely." [Shorty and Leno and Rosemary would still be alive. Charlie would never have been put in jail.]

3- What if Gary Hinman had not been home when Bobby knocked at the door? [Would any of this shit have happened?]

4- What if Aaron Stovitz resisted talking to the press? [No BUG, no Helter Skelter bullshit, Charlie walks, shorter trial.]

5- What if Sharon had stayed over with Jay at his place? [The case attracts minimal attention and maybe is never even solved.]


Caryn said...

I LOVE #1! I made mention in KTS years ago that I thought Steven Parent had gone to Cielo for a homosexual tryst with Garretson and some members over there went APE SHIT!!!

dgreek said...

And "What if" Sadie had kept her mouth shut? Maybe the murders would still be unsolved?

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

WHAT IF: We can find the traffic ticket, and / or warrant issued to Charles Manson, by a State Trooper on August 9th, outside San Diego? What if we found that the date had been deliberately changed? This would prove that Charles is telling me the truth -- he was not there on August 9th at the LaBianca's. And it would prove that the DA intentionally set up Charles to take the fall for the murders.

Blatant plug - more details on my blog!

WHAT IF -- Charles had been allowed to call witnesses at his trial? Who would have testified? What would they have said? Who else would have been implicated? Would Charles have walked?

WHAT IF -- Leno LaBianca's little black book washes up on the Santa Monica beach, intact? Whose names would be in its pages? What political careers will be destroyed as a result?

WHAT IF -- Susan Atkins makes a deathbed confession? What would she say? "She knelt on the ground and offered up her knife to me, and said 'I did that for you'. And I said, 'No! You've just sent me back to prison!' She just wanted to do whatever, for who ever she thought would love her."

WHAT IF -- We fed truth serum to Bruce Davis?

WHAT IF -- Our next president makes ATWA an obligatory national policy?!

ColScott said...

Manson was at the LaBiancas.
Manson was allowed to call witnesses.

agnostic monk said...

hi there Col. If Linda had directed the authorities to Spahn (which she certainly should have done but had her reasons for not doing - reasons that don't, in my opinion, omit her from inclusion in the human race), it still would have led back to Charlie, and very, very quickly. Really, how long do you think it would have taken for the cops to figure out who was loved like no other at the ranch, and what that person was up to on the night of the 8th? "Go with Tex..."

AC, which knife would that have been? The knife she lost in the cushions in the Tate living room?

Heaven said...

What if Bugliosi and/or the cops investigated Garretson story?

Was he maybe somehow involved? A lookout perhaps for who would be there??

Hiya Monk! I hope you're doing well!


starship said...

and what if someone with some clout would actually decide to re-investigate this whole case to see what turns up? The Washington Post just did a whole re-hash of the Chandra Levy case which was very interesting (the cops fucked up early on...what a surprise!). I for one am hoping that the LA Times is already working on a 40th anniversary series and that someone has the balls to say, let's get it right this time.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Well, I doubt that the latest documentary film is gonna break any new ground. But I like that particular "What if", Pristash.

Agnostic! Glad to see ya! But that don't mean I'll not argue with you. The one who was "loved like no other at the ranch" complains that he couldn't ever get the kids to buckle down and clean the barns. So much for giving orders that were instantly obeyed! I can relate... it's just easier to do the darn chores ones ownself, then argue with recalcitrate teenagers.

Colonel, when Charles requested calling witnesses, his "lawyer" told him not to bother. And a guy who was basically illiterate woudln't be able to fill in the little forms for the process server unaided. When Charles testified in his own behalf, they cleared the courtroom so he couldn't "mesmerize" the jury. (Apparently, they don't teach the Christians in CA how to bounce those hypnotism spells back at the sender, during those Catechism classes they are forced to take.) So, like, what if Charles had received a fair trial?

Expanding upon that, what if all the po' folks in Amerika actually were blessed with *help* from the judicial system? Many lower class white guys and most all the black dudes would be OUT, and the Enron execs. and numerous senators and governors would be IN!

agnostic monk said...

Hi AC, glad to see you too! I have a hard time accepting the juxtaposition of teenagers refusing basic chores meant to serve the group but gladly shaving their heads, slicing open their own skin, and following Charlie to their doom. Also, my question was a serious one about Charlie's assertion. He says Susan held her knife up to him and said "I did this for you" but in fact she had no knife. It's not possible that Charlie or someone else made that scenario up, is it? Nah. I really don't think Charlie knows how to tell the full truth and is very skilled at "making a lie of it."

hi heaven and everyone!

agnostic monk said...

what exactly were the official reasons for the jury being cleared from the room for Charlie's testimony? It can't have been hypnotism, I don't think that's a legal reason. And weren't his lawyers on board with that move? His speech would not have done him any favors were the jury to hear it.

starship said...

Hey AC,

I read your blog about the traffic ticket, I don't understand your point. If CM received a ticket at 3am on August 9th...that was the morning of the Tate murders. San Clemente and LA are only about 60 some odd miles apart, no? The LaBianca's didn't even arrive at their home until after 1am on August 10th, leaving plenty of time for CM to have made it over to Waverly Drive.

Now I have heard of this speeding ticket thing before, but only in the context of it being pretty far from LA and that it was before the Tate murders, the question being how could he have arrived back at Spahn in time, etc, etc....

And the girl he was with was underage too, right? What kind of cop stops an ex con driving a truck with an underage girl in it and only writes a speeding ticket?

macp64 said...

"1- What if Willam Garretson was not horny late that night in August?"

No offense but this is totally unfounded. There is absolutely no evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, to believe that that is the case.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Pristash: There actually WAS a ticket; that has been established. The date on the ticket was officially listed as 7 August. It'd be fairly easy to alter the number, especially on a carbon.

Assuming I'm being told the truth -- and he HAD to know, if I put this online, that people would attempt to poke holes in it -- anyway, assuming it's the truth, the 9th at 3 am is the night after the Tate murders, yes? So he couldn't have run back to LA, cleaned up the murder scene, then hurried off to San Clemente. Through LA traffic.

And assuming it's the night of the LaBianca murders, instead, he couldn't have tied up the LaBiancas at 1 am, run back to the ranch, switched cars from the station wagon to the truck, picked up Stephanie, and ended up near San Clemente at 3 am. Unless, as White Rabbit claims, Charles can levitate cars.

But now, alas, the ticket seems to be missing.

I'm thinking it was the night of the LaBianca murders, and that it was actually the 10th. Three reasons: 1.) He doesn't do linear time well. 2.) He told me he was not at the LaBiancas', he was, um, having an assignation with a young lady. Which would be the reason for taking a panel truck; and 3.) Why would the ticket disappear, and the cop be reassigned and not testify, if the citation was actually written on the 7th?

Agnostic -- You've seen pictures of my brats. They'll drill holes in their skin with needles, tattoo cartoon characters on themselves, and color their hair vomit green, but they won't sweep the consarned floor. Follow orders? From an ADULT? Puh-leeze!

The quote that I previously posted was from a long-ago phone conversation. Here is from a recent missive -- from the "I forgive everybody" letter:

"Susan said, 'I just killed myself for you. That's how much I love you and this world. Now you can fix it.' My reply was, 'You just put me back in PRISON for the rest of my life!' She knelt down, and holded (sic) up a buck knife, and started crying. She had reached the end of herself. Tex said, 'She did good, you should get down on your knees and cry with her. This whole world is gonna die, unless we do something.' I yelled, 'I just got out from prison doing something! If you want to go, leave me out of it!' I already gave at the office."

So, did they take only one knife along with them? The one that ended up in the couch cushions. Pretty hard to kill 4 people with just one knife.

paul said...

Well, and I swear this is true, I own the exact same model of clock-radio; the 1969 Sony Digimatic. I bought it sealed and boxed from a car boot sale a few years ago (not realizing it's historical significance). It's beautiful' in my eyes but is virtually unlistenable. I certainly wouldn't make the effort to drive to a friends house late at night in a vain attempt to offload that and that alone!

ColScott said...

Colonel, when Charles requested calling witnesses, his "lawyer" told him not to bother. And a guy who was basically illiterate woudln't be able to fill in the little forms for the process server unaided. When Charles testified in his own behalf, they cleared the courtroom so he couldn't "mesmerize" the jury. (Apparently, they don't teach the Christians in CA how to bounce those hypnotism spells back at the sender, during those Catechism classes they are forced to take.) So, like, what if Charles had received a fair trial?
Sorry, you can write anything you want, but this is bullshit through and through. He could have called witnesses. He chose not to. He doesn't have to fill out forms. He arrogantly went on the stand (with the courtroom cleared correctly by the judge in case he implicated his partners) and he arrogantly recited testimony that was irrelevant since the jury never heard it. Not for mesmerizing- for correct legal reasons. The trial was unfair, but that was Manson's own arrogant attempt at control. You can believe whatever you want, but that don't make it true.

ColScott said...

"1- What if Willam Garretson was not horny late that night in August?"

No offense but this is totally unfounded. There is absolutely no evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, to believe that that is the case.

To believe what? There is plenty of evidence to indicate that was why Parent stopped by- not to sell a clock at midnight (wtf!) Read the Police reports.

ColScott said...

Charlie was at the LaBiancas. There never was any serious doubt about that at any point in time. None, ever. If you want to make shit up about re-assigned officers 40 years later, fine- but we will laugh at you for it.

THERE WAS A CONSPIRACY to make sure that Manson went down for first degree murder at the TLB trials when he killed nobody. There was a bullshit motive and an attempt to make him the kingpin. And Charlie played into it so nicely he might as well have worked for BUG himself.
But there was no other conspiracy against Charlie- there didn't have to be he was his own worst enemy.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Said Colonel Scott: "THERE WAS A CONSPIRACY to make sure that Manson went down for first degree murder at the TLB trials when he killed nobody. There was a bullshit motive and an attempt to make him the kingpin."

Ever thought about WHY? Never mind, I'm sure that you have.

Usually, when there is a conspiracy, records disappear or are altered. Ask Mr. Nixon.

agnostic monk said...

AC I don't think you can really compare your kid's modern day fashion experiments to what the girls did at the trial. they each revealed a shaved head and a bloody forehead X to the entire world while on trial for a very grisly series of murders. they were following Charlie's lead. all their courtroom antics were choreographed by him. attempts to diminish Charlie's obvious leadership influence on these people aint gonna fly with me.

the knife: Susan lost her knife in the living room. Tex ordered Linda to toss the remaining knives out the window up in the canyons. Susan had no knife when she returned from Cielo, unless she ran into the kitchen to grab another one for use in the symbolic knife ceremony that Manson insists she performed.

deadwoodhbo said...

Wow The Col speaks:P

starship said...

Ok, AC, where HAS it been established that there actually was a speeding ticket? I think you may be right, but I don't recall where that comes from. If it's from Sanders, that Fug, then I think we have a problem.

I seem to recall the issue was that it was pretty far up the coast and so it speaks to CM's distance from Spahn on the evening before the Tate murders (August 8th, the murders occured after midnight on the 9th).

I must say, I have to agree with the Col, it is fairly well established by all the major players that CM was back at Spahn on the 8th, found out about BB and Mary and Sandy being busted and declaring that "Now is the time for Helter Skelter." And wasn't it Stephanie Schram that was with CM in the van? What has she ever said about it? Wasn't Nancy Pittman dancing naked with CM when the old Ford pulled back into the ranch?

starship said...

Oh, and for the Col: What do you mean read the police reports? I've read everything I can find online and other than a psychological report on SP having homosexual tendencies, I don't know of any references. Garrettson's polygraph? I don't recall.

Now, I don't discount your theory out of hand, but at the same time, it is plausible. SP did make a call from WG's to another guy about the radio, right?

And just for fun, re watch the scene from the new Helter Skelter movie when SP arrives at the guest house. WG is just delighted to see him! Asks him in for a beer!

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Dear Colonel: I've been laughed at before, and likely will be again; doesn't bother me overly much. A flat tire, a broken fingernail, a little amusement at my expense.

But still and all, I'd surely like to see the real traffic ticket (or a decent facsimilie).

Agnostic: Having done the forehead fashion statement my ownself, I don't recall anyone twisting my arm. Monkey see, monkey do. We live in the litigous age where a pop star sings angst lyrics, and then some teens shoot up their high school, so the pop star is sued for coercing the violence.

Were those knives tossed out the window ever found?

Pristash: When I first privately e-mailed the traffic ticket statement to a bunch of people, someone sent me a sequence of events before, during and after the murders, and the citation was on the timeline for 3am on 7 August. But no actual photo of the ticket. Good question, origin of the timeline.

Another good question, why didn't Stephanie testify, at least as a hostile witness? Which leads back to my other "What if"...

What if Charles's excuse for an attorney had actually issued some subpoenas?

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Hmm, Mr. Sanders seems to believe that the ticket was received 7 August, no time listed, and that it was in Oceanside.

starship said...

Interesting, AC, but like I said, if Sanders is the source, then we have a problem.

What else was in that timeline? Do you still have it? Email it to us, or at least to me privately so we can have a go at it.

But let's consider this: CM was gone for a while prior to August 8th, but the circle has no clue where. Rumors have him hanging up at Esalen for some reason (probably teaching AF a class or something on coming to now) which is in the Bay area, no? Almost 500 miles north of LA. If CM receives this speeding ticket or whatever in Oceanside, that is like 83 miles south of LA. In a Hostess Twinkie truck. With an underage girl.

But he still has plenty more than enough time to make it back to Spahn in time to tell Tex and the chicks to "leave something witchy."

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Pristash, to send you something in private e-mail, I'll need an e-mail address, hint hint. Mine's on my profile. If you want to publish it to the comments section here, that's fine; I just don't know how.

None of this adds up, does it? In terms of driving time. Yet there's an awful lot of detail in those letters I received, enough so that it's doubtful that he's making it all up. And why go seeking a warrant for a citation? Besides, he has never, ever lied to me.

I'm also thinking that Mr. Bugliosi mentioned a traffic ticket. Since I read HS when I was about 15, while being held at gunpoint and forced, I can't recall exactly. You see, that was almost ten, twelve years ago, hahaha!

More for Agnostic Monk: "One of the high points that the D.A. used to win was the word 'followers'. My friends were not followers. But everyone wanted to believe that they were followers, because they were and still are real and true. They were my friends. I never told them what to do; they knew what to do. We lived and worked together. They were your outcast runaways, unwanted with no place to go, just like me... Come on, /influence people'? A stop sign influences people that can read!"

ColScott said...

Pristash- the call he made was to another friend NOT about the clock radio as far as I know. Sure he COULD have been coming there for another reason but it is doubtful. And the new Helter Skelter is pure shit.


Look, knock yourself out. Charlie was at the LaBiancas. WHY he was there I don't know. He drove around a long time, made a phone call and then went there. Who told him they were home?

starship said...

Ok, Col, please don't make the same mistake I did: it is only a theory that CM made a phone call the night of the LaBianca's, not fact. The facts are he stopped once or twice and COULD have made a phone call while out of sight and earshot.

And yes, the new Helter Skelter movie is a real hoot, if you can call any movie about multiple murders a hoot that is.

starship said...

I spent part of today re-reading the Garrettson polygraph transcript. It's kind of funny: if you read it one way, it sounds like he admits to having sex with a man on Thursday, the day before he was visited by SP. But if you read it another way, it's just that they are establishing what the word 'recent' means.

Anyway, he admits to being blown by a man when he first got to California, but that he slept through it. He was really tired.

Jean Harlow said...

How about what if Rudolf Seber had phoned the cops right after he confronted Tex and the girls at his house?

The cops might have been able to find the car and at least have investigated it before Shorty was killed...

What if the car had broken down or Johnny Schwartz hadn't loaned them the car (but I think they just took it didn't they?)

agnostic monk said...

yes AC I'm aware that Charlie plays down his role in the group, he's been doing it for years. He's somewhat full of crap. I never said he twisted their arms, but they did look up to him and were in awe of him. he was the most 'tuned in' guy they'd ever met. and he was skilled at some subtle and non-subtle forms of manipulation. I'm not saying they weren't individually responsible for their own actions. they were. but Charlie played a crucial role in how things panned out. Nevermind legally, nevermind "brainwashing" or Helter Skelter, I just mean on a personal level.

We're just not gonna see eye to eye on this, which is ok.

: )

agnostic monk said...

AC, Stephanie did testify. She was an important prosecution witness who placed Manson at the ranch on the night of the Tate murders but not at the ranch on the night of Labianca (he left her around sundown). She also said that he beat the shit out of her one day when she talked about going home.

Hey, she said it not me!
(you can check out the article on Catscradle's great site about SS testimony.)

macp64 said...

Col Scott stated "To believe what? There is plenty of evidence to indicate that was why Parent stopped by- not to sell a clock at midnight (wtf!) Read the Police reports."

I've read the remark that the psychologist made, and an embarrassing exchange in Garretson's poly, but that's all there is.

The reason Parent stopped by at midnight was because he got off work at 11:00 pm from his job which was just south of there, in west L.A. And the guy he called was down on Doheny and something, in the general area.

So he asked Garretson if he wanted to buy the radio...There's really nothing else to it.

starship said...

jean harlow said:

How about what if Rudolf Seber had phoned the cops right after he confronted Tex and the girls at his house?

Good what if, that! Or at least the next day after the news came out...I mean what was that dude thinking? Wasn't he a retired cop too? When did this part come to light anyway? Only after Grand Jury testimony?

starship said...

And before we get into the whole solemn anniversary thing, since reading the King book I've been thinking:

"Live freaky, die freaky" alleged comment made by one of the neighbors on Cielo Drive the day of the murders. Cold hearted but perhaps telling as well. The Polanskis signed a lease for the property in early February, and moved in around the middle of the month. They had one big party, the housewarming where Sharon's agent got into an argument with Pic Dawson and his canadian buddies, and were thrown out by Roman, Voy, et al. By the end of March, Roman, Sharon, and Rudy are all in Europe and Garrettson moves into the guest house.

Sharon remains in Europe until the middle of July, and comes home 8 months pregnant.

My point being, the Polanskis were barely even there! All of these drug orgies and parties that took place had to have happened under the Frykowski/Folger period when they were alone in the house. Even if Sharon Tate was a drug crazed alcoholic sex maniac, I bet at 8 months pregnant under the hot Southern California sun the only action she was interested in was floating around in the pool.

And what's more is according to Garrettson's polygraph, there was only one big party there while Sharon was gone, the one where they had parking attendents because the cars were parked all the way down Cielo and up Bella. The same party where Garrettson decided to throw out his roommate because he stole several bottles of champagne...

So, the "live freaky, die freaky" comment seems like it may be unfounded, at least as far as Sharon and Roman are concerned.

Another observation: The police spent a lot of time asking Garrettson during his polygraph if he ever saw anything wierd going on at the main house, any big parties, drug taking, sex, etc...He tells them no, but they have a hard time believing him, making comments like "Those people up there were really into some wierd stuff". They also ask him about PIG Dawson and some others.

This was on August 10th, before the LaBianca's bodies had even been found! So within 24 hours the police already believed that the Cielo Drive victims had indeed not only died freaky but lived so as well, and already had the canadian mda possible connection on their radar. Pretty quick work for the notoriously incompetent LAPD. How, people, how?

ColScott said...

Because Dawson was the most obvious suspect around. He was super tight with the Cielo place. His first name is close to the blood writing. He was a big drug dealer. That's a sane motive for an insane crime. To this day I still think the Dawson connection has SOMETHING to do with what happened. The killers were after Frykowski, that is the only thing clear to me.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

If it were up to the Ace legal strategy, I would've had Stephanie testify as a hostile witness for the defense, and grilled her 'til she thought she was barbeque. For instance, she said that Charles smacked in the face with a rifle butt... I would've asked "what rifle?" Okay, you're a suburban girl, but I can't see mistaking a rifle for a handgun. And I would've wondered about the bruises. Hitting someone in the face with a gun handle will mess up their complexion for months, perhaps breaking a nose or some teeth... don't ask me how I know that. And I would've asked why, if she felt so terribly abused, she didn't make tracks right then.

Agnostic: I just don't buy the brainwashing. Or even the charisma. IF that's true, let's clean out Git'mo, let all the prisoners loose, because Osama MADE those poor men be terrorists. Or let's hang the Pope, because he MADE that Christian dude shoot those Pagans at the UU church in Tennessee last week.

Pristash asked, "How, people how?" Because Our Friends in Law Enforcement likely knew that Mr. Frykowski was dealing, because someone was paying them off. There not being many large parties isn't a surprise, that is like putting up a big sign saying "I sell drugs, bust me!" Yet the polices knew SOMEthing was going on, didn't they!

agnostic monk said...

AC I specifically said nevermind the brainwashing. I don't believe the brainwashing aspect of the story myself, at least not the way it was presented in the media. the charisma is another story. Charlie had it in spades. That much should be clear. you keep going back to the legalities of Charlie's culpability but I'm speaking merely of his role on an interpersonal level.

Stephanie DID testify for the defense, in a way. The defense aggressively and extensively cross-examined all the prosecution witnesses (Bugliosi was done with Linda Kasabian after 3 days, the defense kept her on the stand for 3 more WEEKS).

agnostic monk said...

ColScott said...
with the courtroom cleared correctly by the judge in case he implicated his partners

Col thank you for clearing that up. I was curious about the actual reason.

macp64 said...

Anyone who knows about the LAPD back then, knows that they wouldn't have been "bought off".

starship said...

Hey AC, Manson's 'charisma' is part of why he has such a hold on you, no? I'm not sure you would be as terribly devoted to him if he were more, like, say, Al Gore.

And the Pope has enough problems without you picking on him...

starship said...

And about the LAPD? Please, with the long history of the place being so LA Confidential like, I wouldn't put anything past them, mp. Look into the facts surrounding the death of Bobby Fuller. Also, there were some detectives whose first big case was Tate/LaBianca, and whose last big case before retirement was Simpson/Goldman. Now there is a career for ya!

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Said Agnostic: " keep going back to the legalities of Charlie's culpability but I'm speaking merely of his role on an interpersonal level"

That ain't what got him forty years in prison, though. I tag this event as the starting line of the era of non-responsibility. The devil made me do it. And gracious, look where that attitude has gotten us today; the mentality that if someone does something stupid, they can simply blame someone else! Someone breaks into my house, and my dog eats them, their survivors can sue me.

Said Pristash: "Hey AC, Manson's 'charisma' is part of why he has such a hold on you, no?"

Naw, it's definitely the hair.

Jean Harlow said...

what if ...

Charlie had gotten a recording contract from anyone??

or Sharon had gone over to her friend Sheila's as originally planned?

Jean Harlow said...

hi monk, heaven, pritash, ac and everyone else

macp64 said...

L.A. Confidential was was 1950's L.A. seen from Ellroy's
distorted, cartoonish viewpoint. He writes books which are entertaining but they are lurid and bear little resemblance to reality.

Brian Davis said...

Hi All !

Col, Great post
(rah ! rah ! Deadwood, LOL !)
as I am diggin' the comments !

I'm wondering what if Dennis Wilson had never stopped and picked up Pat Krenwinkel And Ella Jo Bailey ?

Would that have made a difference down the road to Charlie selecting
10050 Cielo Drive ?

Marliese said...

Hey Brian...good to see you back. Your fresh outlook has been missed.
Lots of what ifs, huh.

What if Gary Hinman hadn't been dealing dope, what if Bobby hadn't been dealing dope, what if Tex hadn't been dealing dope, what if Lotsapoppa hadn't been shot, what if Melcher hadn't rejected Charlie, what if Charlie hadn't supposedly been rejected by Sharon's photographer at Cielo, what if VF and Abigail had gone back to their own place when Sharon returned, what if Tex and Sadie hadn't been hitting their private stash of meth that day, what if Mary and Sandy hadn't been arrested, what if Charlie had just stayed gone with his fair Stephanie...etc etc


A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Don't the drug dealers in California have guns? What if Hinman had plugged Bobby and Sadie right between the eyes? And haven't those California movie stars ever heard of ADT Security? What if all the alarms had gone off on Cielo Drive, and scared Tex and Patty into next week?

Brian Davis said...

Marliese, Hi ! It's good to see you again too ! Thanks for the kind words !

Yeah, there are so many "what if's" and speaking of, yours were all great ! As well as all of the others I have read !

I guess that's why this post is so popular because all of us have a big bag of "what if's". LOL !

paul said...

And, following A.C.'s:

"What if Hinman had plugged Bobby and Sadie right between the eyes?'

What if Charlie hadn't got macho on Hinman's ass? Understandably Bobby was already uptight about the bikers and Hinman's strange combination of slicked hair and wispy goatee, but the, er, helpful presence of Sadie combined with the endless whining of:

"Sabbe sattā sukhi hontu!"
"Sabbe sattā sukhi hontu"...

(or somesuch), must have been the ominous clincher...

Disclaimer: etc...

Anonymous said...

What if CM had stayed in Boys Town and behaved?

agnostic monk said...

hi there marliese, you touched on something really key. Doesn't it seem like Mary and Sandy's arrest was the straw that broke the spahn ranch horse's back?

I seem to recall Jess Bravin touching on this in his Lynette biography: Sandy never forgot that her Sears misadventure was a partial catalyst for the killings. It helped fuel her steadfast loyalty, and it lit a fire under her ass that led to her own slammertime.

agnostic monk said...

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...
Naw, it's definitely the hair.

Well the guy sure has managed to hang on to it! do they allow Rogaine in prison?

starship said...

Hey, AC,

I don't think ADT existed back then. In fact, it is your friend Charlie who is widely credited with kickstarting the hugely lucrative and today commonplace home security sytems market with he and his family's exploits in August of 1969.

starship said...

And to show just what fools we be even after all these years, even with ADT and their ilk, if the bad guys or girls just follow the example of Tex, and cut your telephone or cable wires, next thing you know you're being carved up anyway.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

What if Charles actually had an attorney that worked for HIM, instead of a lousy public defender, who was often seen pal'ing around with the prosecution? What if the ladies gave up their vigil on the corner, spent some quality time on their backs, and earned the money to hire that era's version of Clarence Darrow or Johnny Cochraine? What if said attorney had the cojones to tell Charles, "These ladies and gentlemen of the jury don't care about philososphy, so please stick to the facts about the case!"

It would have been like the difference between the 115 that appears on "Manson Direct" and "Murder Auction", and the current violation answered by the mighty legal advisor... ie, effectual. Some of you know what I'm talking about.

BTW, the latest round of pictures for sale on "Murder Auction" all have forged signatures. The 115 rules violation even spells his name wrong! I have a copy of that signed 115, and the signatures look nothing alike. Don't get taken by memorabilia theives. In fact, don't buy murder memorabilia at all, cuz it's illegal!

starship said...

I watched DERANGED last night, and it was another hoot. They had re-enactments and everything and they have to be by far the worst ever. Looks like the films that 10 year olds with video cameras make. They made the Tate house look like a trailer. Poor Voy was sleeping on what looked like a american flag either.

They discuss the Hinman murder as what broke the case when the detectives investigating that sought out the TLB detectives to make a connection...true enough so to speak, but they made it sound like Hinman was murdered even after Shorty Shea.

Another frustration is that all these shows focus on CM, the Family, and Helter Skelter...they make the LAPD look stupid (not exactly hard) because at first they thought the Tate murders were drug related, instead of looking right off for groups of people concerned with Armageddon and race wars and such. No mention of any nefarious activities by the victims are ever mentioned. Please, I understand the victims did not deserve to be murdered and I still feel for their survivors, but I still think there was a reason why 10050 Cielo and 3301 Waverly Drives were chosen as opposed to say, 904 North Beverly Drive or 1888 Century Park East, for just a couple of examples.

Anonymous said...

Hi all! Man! I really hate the what if's (on this topic especially) but...No.2, What if Linda kasabian was a human being!!! That one really gets to me! Night 2 could have been so preventable. Protraying her as a victim, then a hero, seriously, forget that!
Note to A.C..I'm just back from a trip up north in Canada, I feel your "dial up" pain. I guess if you're use to it..but heck. I just gave up and hung out with the deers instead..(frankly,they were beautiful company). Just now trying to get use to the sounds of the city again!
Pristash, I haven't seen Deranged, has that one escaped me or is it new? all might find this interesting.. while I was away I was "forced" (forced I tell you)to watch Rush hour 3...Whoa..shit, there he was, Roman Polanski in a bit part. I thought I was wrong at first..'cause I see Manson connections kinda everywhere.. but yup.. no shit.. Roman rush Hour 3...go figure!

agnostic monk said...

I wonder sometimes how that might have played out. So, Linda sneaks into George Spahns house where the telephone is almost always manned. She somehow manages to call the LAPD and in a very low whisper, give them the message that the people at Spahn Ranch did the killings. Ok, have a nice day, officer, Bye! Keep in mind by this time the paranoia was jacked up, men were walking around the ranch with guns, waiting for surprise attacks by their enemies, no one was just walking out of there "no questions asked").

Based on this tip, would the coppers immediately send down some squad cars and have detectives start asking questions? they'd probably learn next to nothing since talking to cops was the gravest sin one could commit in Manson-land. There was no physical evidence at the ranch tying them to Tate, the weapons from the previous night were gone. "We were all here last night singing songs around the campfire, officer! Want to ride one of the horses? No charge." The cops would need arrest warrants to haul anyone away that seemed a possible suspect. It's a Saturday, how easy is it to get one on a Saturday when Judges are playing golf in the summer sun. Would they even be justified in getting one, and would they even learn anything by searching the premises?

So would the Labianca adventure actually be thwarted? or would the cops have eventually left the ranch with plans to keep investigating the Family?

Also, I wonder how many prank calls the LAPD was getting from loonies claiming to know who was responsble for this extremely high-profile murder. Probably a lot, some are followed-up on, most are probably shooed away like nats.

So I just wonder if that phone call definitely would have prevented the foray to Los Feliz. Charlie was ballsy and arrogant, moreso than most. It might not have stopped him. (Dont get me wrong, I do 100% think Linda should had made that call, while at the same time understanding that in her scared, pregnant, freaked out state of mind she didn't feel safe doing so. *I* cant say I would feel safe doing myself.

agnostic monk said...

LilMagil said...
Night 2 could have been so preventable. Protraying her as a victim, then a hero, seriously, forget that!

hi Lil, how are you? love seeing your posts.

but damn, I must read totally different books, articles, and research materials on this case than the rest of you, because no matter how hard I try to find it, I'm just not seeing that portrayal of her out there. Victim? other than being in some kind of shock and probably crapping in her pants (she saw a lot of violence and bloodshed up close and personal - it can't be understood by people who haven't experienced it, the degree to which that can mess up your head, dont underestimate it.), and all this while cleary not being on-board with the killings} running into some logistical hurdles about fleeing the ranch for good, I don't see her touting herself as a victim. Ditto the "hero" portrayal. No one makes her out to be a hero and she helself would probably not accept that title.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Wouldn't the hypothetical policemen theoretically investigating the Ranch have found possible drugs and alledged stolen car parts? Ain't that what justified the police raid a few days later?

Agnostic, this might make you upset, but perhaps the only reason Linda didn't participate in the murders is because she was expecting. It's a little hard to do the physical hard work required, when it looks as though you've swallowed a cello. She may have possessed the killer mentality, and that's why she didn't call the cops, and further, that's why she went along on night #2 (actually #3 counting Mr. Hinman.) Perhaps the smell of blood made her barf.

I still discount the "fear factor". If a woman truly felt that her unborn baby was endangered -- like a battered woman -- she'd hit bricks. I'm told that ANYone could have left the Ranch at ANY time, if they so chose. But most didn't.

Marliese said...

agnostic monk said...
hi there marliese, you touched on something really key. Doesn't it seem like Mary and Sandy's arrest was the straw that broke the spahn ranch horse's back

Hi Agnostic, Thanks very much.
You're right...the straw that broke the spahn ranch horse's back, coming as it did just as CM was returning from R & R with Stephanie, on top of Bobby's arrest etc. Sure does.

Interesting about Sandra...I should read Jess Bravin's good Squeaky book cover to cover instead of skipping and skimming.

Your posts are great reading.


agnostic monk said...

that doesn't upset me, AC. Linda's not my mom, LOL. anyway, she wasn't big from pregnancy as you say, she was only a few weeks pregnant. size aside, it's possible the pregnancy is the reason she stayed out of the fray. only she knows what's in her heart. I'm inclined to think she just didn't have it in her.

but all due respect, how could she or anyone else NOT think their unborn baby was endangered? people were being chopped down like trees. and Gary was their FRIEND.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Drug dealers don't really have friends, I'm afraid. They have temporary business partners, and buddies to get high with, and people whom they avoid when they owe money, and enemies whom they have burned. It's a very negative culture.

agnostic monk said...

Col, my memory fails me. Bugliosi's narrative didn't get going until after Stovitz stepped down? I thought all the Helter Skelter stuff was well under way by then.

AC I hear ya, but the fact is many of them considered Gary a friend, and he considered them his friends, but his murder sent a clear message: you're either with us or you're against us, betray the group and you pay. All is one all is one all is one....

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Friends don't sell friends bad speed. And friends don't leave their friends open to getting their a$$es kicked by a bunch of angry bikers, either.

zoomjaw said...

What If? What if anyone can tell me what happened at Bret's site?I can get it to come up.

zoomjaw said...

I can't get it to open.Sorry for the spelling

paul said...

Same 'ere, summats oop, more cyber-terrorism?

FrankM said...


I suggest that just as there is dope and dope (smoking an occasional spliff at the weekend is not quite the same as regularly shooting up crack or heroin), there are dealers and dealers.

I think GH was first a musician and second a dealer, and although doing a bit of low level stuff was hardly the kind to go around offing people. But the people he had contact with were not so easy-going, by all accounts.

But I may be wrong.


sptrfn said...

1. What if the Straight Satans went with Bobby to Gary's house?

2. What if Charles "Tex" Watson never associated with Manson?

3. What if Voytek Frykowski would have been awake, heard the gunshot, and went out to investigate?

Anonymous said...

MP said,
No offense but this is totally unfounded. There is absolutely no evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, to believe that that is the case.

WRONG, there is numerous evidence and facts that support that SP was gay and was trying to give WG some oral service. BUT for some reason lots of you people refuse to beleive it or, act like the fact that SP was gay is some type of slight to his memory. I think people who are unaccepting of someone eles sexuality, have some perviable skeltonns in the closet, or there just in the closet. GET REAL PEOPLE, it is the 21st century, being gay isnt a a big deal!

grimtraveller said...

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

"WHAT IF: We can find the traffic ticket, and / or warrant issued to Charles Manson, by a State Trooper on August 9th, outside San Diego? What if we found that the date had been deliberately changed? This would prove that Charles is telling me the truth -- he was not there on August 9th at the LaBianca's. And it would prove that the DA intentionally set up Charles to take the fall for the murders"

To at least 2 sources {Vanity Fair in 2011 and in George Stimson's book "Goodbye Helter Skelter" which came out in 2013 or 2014} Manson admits being there. To Vanity Fair he says he went next door to look for Harold True {even though he knew True had left in '68} and to George Stimson he gives an elaborate explanation of talking to Leno LaBianca on said night.
So in both cases, he admits he was there.
I've loved reading AC's stuff both here and on Mansonblog. I don't agree with much she said and I do agree with much she said. So it's kind of sadly that I say she's kind of blown her credibility because this isn't the first time she's been insistent that Charlie was nowhere near the LaBiancas. But he was. By the admission not of his co_defendants, not by the word of Bugliosi.....but by his own words. There have been other times when she's defended him with statements that he himself has contradicted or times when his supporters have said things that she has then contradicted. So it's not only Pat, Leslie, the late Susan, Bobby and Tex. Contradiction seems to be catching around those that at some point are allied to Charlie.

PaulH said...

In the Charlie Rose interview... Manson insisted the killings were part of a war on the establishment. They were NOT criminal acts. It was part of a "holy war."
Rose then asks Manson, "you mean the killing of Sharon Tate and the others wasn't murder?" And Manson says "No. It wasn't."