In the comments, Pritash and others ask if I think Charlie Manson was responsible. Not did he get a fair trial and all- if he was responsible.
He was as responsible as Linda Kasabian. They both attended one of the nights of slaughter, both knew about it and did nothing, both didn't kill anyone.
It doesn't interest me to play semantics. Was Charlie responsible? I can state that he is convicted of nine murders and killed no one. Was Charlie responsible? I can say that the key is MOTIVE. Motive here is everything. BUG made up his motive. But what IS the motive? Will we ever know?
You want to know something people. I think the answer is with one man. Tex Watson.
Dig it.
The Charlie Manson who is in prison now is batshit crazy. He isn't the same guy anymore. Like the David Lynch who did ELEPHANT MAN isn't the same guy who did INLAND EMPIRE. So if you could visit Charlie and use a potion to make him tell you the truth about TLB I don't think he even knows it anymore.
But Tex does. He just ain't tellin'.
Here are Ten Questions for Tex Watson to honestly answer- before he even starts talking about TLB.
1- How many drug burns did you do with dealers BEFORE you burned Crowe?
2- How did you know Voytek Frykowski?
3- Were you and Sadie really speeding the Tate night?
I think he had done other burns. I think he knew Voytek. I think there was a burn there. I do not think he was speeding that night. He was a little bit too in control of things to be out of control if you follow me.
4- What did Charlie have on you besides peer pressure?
5- Did you know Leno LaBianca?
6- What was your relationship REALLY with Susan Atkins?
I think Charlie knew something that he could use against Tex, something huge, which made him a useful murderer. I think he knew Leno LaBianca and that Leno might have been trying a John DeLorean move in order to save the Gateway Markets. I think it is weird that Tex and Sadie are never linked in the literature but they are clearly the two most boodthirsty.
7- Tex, whatever happened to your girlfriend Rosina who was held captive by Crowe?
8- How well did you know Gary Hinman?
9- How well did you know Rudi Altobelli?
Rosina was there when Charlie shot Crowe- and then is never mentioned again. She must have been involved with Tex on the drug deals otherwise why capture her? Where did she go? If he's dealing drugs and burning people, well then that makes him the same as Gary Hinman. He definitely knew Gary. But how and why? Altobelli was in the Hollywood scene, and is the connection to Tate.
10- Where did you get that line " I am the Devil here to do the Devil's Business" from?
It is a great line. One for the ages. He is not a creative guy. What was that line supposed to signify?
Yes, the more I research the more this case becomes about drugs. I think cops were in on it. I think the motive is becoming more and more banal and the fairy tale fading away.
Anyway - what would YOU ask Tex?
68 comments:
Ok, again, I'm not a lawyer, not even a disbarred one, although I did indeed once play one onstage, but I digress.
Manson was convicted of CONSPIRACY to commit murder, which under California law at the time, and maybe even today for all I know, means that because the conspiracy resulted in multiple deaths, then all the members of the conspiracy are equally guilty...whether or not they did any actual killing (LVH should chew on that for a while too before any more parole hearings).
Tex was a key part of all this for sure....but it was Manson who sent them up to Cielo and picked out the LaBianca house. It has been said that Tex owed CM because he saved his ass and Rosina's by 'killing' Crowe. Tex owed him for that because that was a Tex freelance. Col, your points about Rosina's whereabouts is a good one. But Rudy Altobelli is still alive and kicking, is he not? I've never come across any reference to him being involved in any nefarious dealings. What is your theory regarding him?
And, Col, am I hearing you saying that Hinman did indeed burn BB and the bikers on that deal? On purpose? If so then he would have known he was going to have some pretty angry bikers and Manson minions on his hands but didn't seem to be worrying about any of that stuff.
Anyway, in my heart of hearts I think Tate was a drug burn and the LaBianca's were a contract killing, but it was Manson who had the contract, not Tex.
Wow...breathtaking the second picture, was it taken at LAX when they brought Tex back from Texas to LA ?
with the lady staring at the camera amazing picture , thanks Col...
For Tex, I would ask him...
1) why did you kill all the residents at 10050 Cielo Drive and why did you kill a pregnant woman ?
2) why did you kill a couple the next night, did they do something personal to you and the people the night before too ?
I have to think for other questions...
I never understood how a parole hearing for this man could last more than 30 seconds.I don't care how many ALMS,Psalms and video tapes he makes.
Even if he did find God I think people lose sight of the fact he and the others are in prison for what they did,not what they might now be.
Col this is a great post, one of your better ones, and one which requires a lot of consideration. But before I really dig in to the substance of your questions, I have to chime in about something for which I know you will rip me a new asshole (or ignore me. probably you will ignore me, which is ok. I still feel all sorts of love for the Col). Kind of off topic but you brought it up: Manson was more responsible than Kasabian. Period. No one at that ranch gave a flying fuck what Linda said or did. She was a flakey, diminutive 19 year old girl with freckles and a baby, a new england chick enjoying some california sunshine who liked to party and talk about peace and love and have lots and lots of sex and she had a thing for guys with guitars and weed. She had no influence or power. No one hung on her every word. We cannot say the same about Mr. Manson. It matters. And anyone who thinks it doesn't matter needs to re-educate themselves about the realities of spahn ranch.
Manson drove. And when Manson was not driving, he was giving directions. To borrow a line from Susan Atkins' former attorney Debra Frazier, Linda would have probably preferred to find a pot party on those two nights. Charlie had other plans.
(by the way, Charlie entered the LaBianca house. Kasabian never entered any of the murder houses, not even the venice beach home Charlie himself asked her to enter). Mary Poppins? Not a chance. As responsible as Manson? No. There are a zillion other questions in your post that I must consider, but I had to jump in.
Dig it.
(p.s. "Katie can waitey" is pure poetry)
I meant responsible in a legal sense that is all
by the way, is it possible that maybe both drugs AND some helter skelter revolutionary madness played equal roles in these murders? maybe they were intertwined.
And yes I think Tex and Sadie were on speed the night of Tate. Tex the next night, too. Not only does he admit to being on speed (as does Sadie) but his behavior was very meth-like. I have never consumed meth and never will, but from what I understand a user can feel surprisingly in control and quite powerful. However, when I was in college I hung out with a friend who had just taken some speed and all she did was cry while listening to stevie nicks songs.
but how can she be legally just as responsible when Manson entered the LaBianca home and most likely tied up poor Rosemary and Leno?
Linda probably wouldn't even know how to tie a leather handcuff if her life depended on it. She spent more time reveling with Family members, digging out hot sulfur springs to soothe the Family skin problems, and preparing bottles for Tanya (breastfeeding when Charlie wasn't around because he didn't like that).
Very thoughtful, insightful post, Colonel Scott.
Two questions that I would ask Tex Watson:
1.) Do you feel remorse for killing a pregnant lady and her baby, not to mention the other seven people, and pinning it on the friend who bailed you out of so many other messes...
AND
2.) Does THAT hurt!?!
Anyway - what would YOU ask Tex?
Col has much has i admire You and i do:P i wouldnt waste my valued air asking him anything:P
I'd ask Tex...
How did Manson get the title Most Dangerous Man Alive? Don't you feel cheated?
Poor Tex, always the bridesmaid, never the bride..
=)
Heaven said...
I'd ask Tex...
How did Manson get the title Most Dangerous Man Alive? Don't you feel cheated?
Poor Tex, always the bridesmaid, never the bride..
=)
3:03 AM, January 05, 2008
AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!! .Heaven.
That was a good one, Heaven.
heaven, lol!!!!!
sort of off-topic, but... Col, how do you think the trial would have been different if Tex had been tried with the others? Would he have bent over to show the jury his panties like the girls did? or would he have just sat back and stared into space like the dumbf*** he was?
pristash you bring up a good point about hinman. doesn't seem logical that he knew he had burned them. they could easily have found him and them biker boys likely would not be amenable to a lecture on pacifism.
ok, enough coffee for me.
the Col's post sent me to my bookshelf to dig up my copy of Sanders (I have a cold and I'm bored and hopped up on Nyquil, sue me). I thought this little nugget was sort of interesting:
"Tests at the UCLA NeuroPsychiatric Institute later showed that during his trip in the Manson void, Watson's IQ dropped thirty points, probably through the use of telache or belladonna." Sanders, page 37.
30 points is a lot. Maybe he wasn't faking his dumbf*** routine. I always assumed that he was. Then again maybe the tests can be faked by a severely manipulative a-hole.
By the way, before you read this I will have googled "telache" which I had little knowledge of but am soon to be an expert (reading about it, not consuming it). All I know is that Sadie made a tea out of it to steal vegetables from a truck driver in Death Valley.
Sorry if I'm a little out of sequence here...Pristash, enjoyed your post, especially the reminder about the conspiracy convictions.
Your comment about the LaBiancas...why do you (and others) feel it was a contract hit? I understand about Manson having the contract, and certainly he knew Tex would kill them, but why and where did the contract originate? And why Rosemary? I feel an affinity for Rosemary. :)
And what kind of hit would contract with the likes of Charlie Manson? Don't most contract killings leave a cold trail? I should study up on the theory I guess.
About Manson picking out Cielo, wasn't it that Charlie said words to the effect of "some place like up where Melcher used to live?"
great reading guys thank you
Sorry abit of topic i cant believe tex was allowed to marry and have kids,what kind of justice system is that,better still what kind of women would marry that thing?.
Deadwood, I've asked the same question...what kind of woman would marry that thing, have four kids with him and affectionately call her baby killng husband "Papa Bear."
Isn't she married to someone else now?
women who marry incarcerated murderers, what a strange psychology. how could any woman look him in the eyes and not be constantly thinking about that knife plunging into poor sharon? isn't that taking the stereotypical attraction to bad boys just a bit too far?
hi marliese, for the very reasons you just mentioned I tend to doubt the contract killing theory. too sloppy, and blood all over the walls? a bunch of dumb hippies who were destined to start talking eventually? the Family seems a poor choice for someone wanting a contract killing to be quick, clean, and discreet.
With all due respect, I think the LaBianca murders was a contract.
Charlie has made reference to the "hit list" and "calling New York" in several interviews.
I believe Manson took up on the LaBianca contract from whoever and the way he chose to execute it was to sell his hit crew on Helter Skelter.
Combining the Tate murders
with Labianca, Manson could accomplish his personal message to Melcher,D Wilson and the establishment and with the LaBiancas Manson could collect on the contract.
Manson knew he had to sell it as Helter Skelter for his drones to execute it.
I dont think Manson cared if it went down sloppy or not as he was going to blame it on the kids anyway.
And since he wasnt physically involved (except for tying the LaBiancas up), Manson could collect on the contract and Tex and company would go down for it.
Now as I keep exploring this case, my opinion on all that could change. Thanks !
Happy New Year Everyone. Just wanted to say To Col Scott this is one of your best posts.
Agnostic, it sure does take the stereotypical bad boy to an extreme. Have thought that very same thing so many times...how could any woman not find just the thought of him near her absolutely revolting. How could she look at him, or touch him and not see the hands that plunged stab after bloody stab over and over again, chasing and hacking and making sure his victims were gouged, beaten, butchered and shot to death. I just don't understand the attraction.
Great post Colonel...
here's my two cents - questions I would ask Tex
1. To your knowledge was Cielo being watched in the weeks leading up to the murders (with sightings of dune buggies and a white van)?
2. Why did Katie tell her lawyer that "Sharon wasn't supposed to be there"? This also implies inside knowledge of some sort.
3. Did you know or had you met William Garretson before August 8?
4. Did you know either Suzan Struthers or Joe Dorgan prior to the murders?
5. Do you know for a fact, or do you believe, that CM went to Cielo after the murders but before the bodies were actually discovered?
6. Did you know or ever meet Cass Elliott, Pic Dawson or Thomas Harris(I hope I have the names right)?
7. Why did someone from Cielo call the Ranch in the weeks leading up to the murders?
8. Why did the murders occur in August? Why not in July right after the drug burn of Bernard Crowe?
Col.,
I am curious as to why you think Tex knew Altobelli? Is that because of the Moorehouse connection?
Why do you think Sadie is one of the most blood thirsty? I mean Tex is a given.
Why do you think the cops were involved? and do you think they were involved in both murder investigations or just Tate or just Labianca?
Thanks - I am glad that you are feeling better.
Hi to Monk, Heaven, and 60's Kid.
Agnostic made note that Sanders said that Watson used "telache or belladonna".
Two different plants, although both contain the alkaloid solenium. And ingesting either one has the potential to kill... no wonder the dude lost a few IQ points! If one uses teleache leaves for vision questing, one should make an ointment. And have a reagent and a "babysitter" handy in case one's heart rate spikes, temperature drops, and in the event of other unpleasant side effects.
My take on everything else?
Mr. Frykowski did drugs.
Mr. Watson sold and used drugs.
Mr. LaBianca supplied drugs.
Mr. Manson was not involved until after the fact.
I agree with Brian Davis analysis of why LaBianca was a contract killing. Manson had the underworld connections (Frankie Carbo) and may have been gearing his minions up with the Helter Skelter deal to do just that. He could have used Tex's connections to Voytek (if there are any)for a dry run at Cielo.
Jean Harlow: good post too! Especially the Cass and Pic questions...wonder what happened to those canadians anyway? And again...no proof whatsoever of any phone calls from Cielo to Spahn. Whatsoever. Just unfounded rumours, apparently begun with Sanders.
What is the evidence that Mr. LaBianca supplied drugs?
How connected was Charlie Manson to Frankie Carbo? Is there evidence of anything substantial, anything at all other than being housed in the same prison for awhile, or Charlie wishing and hoping? Seriously, why would Frankie Carbo want anything to do with Charlie Manson?
Hi to Monk, Heaven, and 60's Kid.Hi Jean Harrow
What analysis of why the Labiancas were a contract killing?
They say it's good practice to lurk a couple of weeks before posting and to introduce yourself to a group when you join.
And now the waiting's over and I'm signing in to say hello.
I'm Frank, been enjoying the posts for a while now (like it more when the tone is friendly!) and hope to go on doing so - and may even contribute something of my own soon.
Thanks Col for letting me in.
Frank
Hello and welcome, Frank. Is that your real photograph? If so, you're one handsome dude. Hee hee. Nice to meet you.
Marliese: Unfortunately, drug suppliers do not often advertise in the phone book. So I'm surmising, because his little black book went missing, that it was just chock full of important phone numbers.
I believe Rosemary was an innocent victim...collateral damage as it were.
I know of no evidence that Leno was dealing drugs, but there seems to be evidence of gambling debts, embezzlement and the like. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even Bugliosi acknowledges such.
Thank you, Col.!
My question for a lot of these folks is -
"Don't you find it strange that you simply exchanged one messianic belief system for another?" It's like Tex and others all still see the same play but with different actors. He really seems to believe that Armageddon is HERE.
Welcome Frank!!
Hiya 60's kid!!
=)
true, pristash. one has to be careful when reading Sanders because he spends 3/4 of the book speculating and passing on rumours. Every other sentence is "I heard this from so and so.." When he starts getting too heavy on the satanic devil worshipping cults of 1960s SoCal I can't help but eye-roll because he just keeps beating the reader over the head with it. But at least he admits that it is gossip.
Thanks AC I wasnt able to find much information on telache on my own. I won't be going on any vision quests anytime soon. Left most of that back in college, lol.
JohnnieBoy said...
My question for a lot of these folks is -
"Don't you find it strange that you simply exchanged one messianic belief system for another?" It's like Tex and others all still see the same play but with different actors. He really seems to believe that Armageddon is HERE.
12:54 PM, January 07, 2008
I like that comment well said
welcome Frank and welcome back 60s kid ,and thank you for the Mr Manson update AC.
Wowie, lots of new people. Hello to Magick Films and Johnny Boy.
Armageddon was yesterday, didn't you get the memo? I slept through most of it.
Agnostic Monk said: "When he (Sanders) starts getting too heavy on the satanic devil worshipping cults of 1960s SoCal I can't help but eye-roll"
My humble opinion is that Sadie and Tex were into the LaVey Satinism for the same reason a lot of kids dabble in it today: they thought it was cool. Allright, we can wear black, listen to loud music, and scare our parents! Bobby the Frenchman starred in some movies loosely associated w/ the subject. As did Ms. Tate.
And although I believe Mr. Manson to be a natural shaman / dream walker, and he has a working knowledge of mysticism, actually his training in the so-called "occult" arts seems minimal at best, despite what Mr. Sanders writes. That awful pseudo-documentary with the staged Pagan ritual got it really, terribly wrong. Sensationalism at its finest.
Hey, that would be a whole 'nother very cool blog entry. The relationship of the occult to the case... Maybe save it for Halloween / Samhain.
Johnnieboy said: My question for a lot of these folks is -
"Don't you find it strange that you simply exchanged one messianic belief system for another?" It's like Tex and others all still see the same play but with different actors. He really seems to believe that Armageddon is HERE.
Very good point, Johnnieboy...very good. You didn't hapen to run North Jersey a while back with your brother Corrado, did ya?
Hello everyone. Lurker here who looks forward to posting and joining in your very interesting discussions.
Was Manson responsible? Was Hitler responsible for the Holocaust,neither actually killed anyone but looking back i think the conspiracy law was fair in this case. The only dispute is the degree of responsibility between the defendants. In fact im sure Charlie has said that he didnt really have an issue with the verdict just the way it came down with the infamous Helter Skelter motive. As for Linda she just got very very lucky.
Did the prosecution really need Linda's testimony and what if Susan Atkins had kept to the deal and become the prosecutions main witness, where would that have left Linda.
Motive-Are people still looking for ONE motive. You wont find it. There were multiple motives, some of which were the same for each defendant and some individual to each defendant.
Manson said "There were different things on different people's backs doing different things"-which i interpret as each person had their own motivation.
Drug Burn?-Would you trust Charlie with a professional contract.Whatever he is or he isnt, he isnt a very good criminal. Well would you have sent Kasabian to the Cielo Drive.
Another new person. Hello, August Eighth. We should have a cocktail party, or something. I will bring the absinthe.
Thank you for the welcome. I look forward to many enlightening discussions.
Sorry all ask people this is of topic but i have to ask,do you think any of the manson followers where involed in the zodiac killings ,i think bobby was a suspect at one point ,heaven any comment on that one:P.
Force 17 said...
Was Manson responsible? Was Hitler responsible for the Holocaust,neither actually killed anyone but looking back i think the conspiracy law was fair in this case
I have heard that reply so many times when asked if manson was responsible.well what about hitler i think thats a lame reply sorry to be rude but i do
Yeah, me too. Hitler could give orders and have people arrested if they didn't obey... make people disappear. Sorry.
Did Mr. Bugliosi really need Ms. Kasabian to testify?
Bug: "If you don't cooperate, I am going to send your children into foster care".
Linda: "Yikes! I better come up with a good story!"
Sadie: "So what, I can always have more children."
Besides, Ms. Kasabian sounded reasonably lucid, even if she was lying through her pretty white teeth. Played better on the witness stand.
Uh oh, AC, you're in trouble now...
A.C. Fisher Aldag said...
Yeah, me too. Hitler could give orders and have people arrested if they didn't obey... make people disappear. Sorry.
Dam AC now your going to get everyone saying charlie made people disapear like shorty .
Hi force-17 and welcome, my take is that aside from the driver's license theory (which holds more weight than many want to think), Kasabian was asked to go to Cielo by Manson because she was still in her initiation phase. According to her own testimony, Manson seemed to pay more attention to her than the other girls when she first arrived. she acknowledged learning that this was a common thing until any said girl was more assimilated. He probably wanted his new darling to feel more included and important. I don't think on the first night she knew there was murder in store.
Respectfully AC, you can say she was lying through her pretty white teeth, like many, many, many, many (many x300000) others have accused her of doing. But you won't be able to come up with any specific lies. Funny how that works. 18 days on the witness stand and no defense attorney could effectively find these so-called lies. That will always and forever be an interesting dynamic to me.
"She lied!"
"She wasn't really remorseful!"
"Her tears were fake!"
"I have no evidence or proof for this whatsoever, just trust me I know what I'm talking about because I'm psychic!"
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the proposed deal to Atkins simply immunity from the death penalty?
Agnostic: No offense. If someone threatened to put My Dear Ones into a juvenile facility, I would likely testify to having killed Jesus himself.
HowEVER...
"Manson seemed to pay more attention to her than the other girls when she first arrived"
She WISHes. x;-)
Deadwood: Hahaha!
Hey, new people... whatcha up to?
Hello to the new members !
Col, the fact that CM got as severly punished as TW etc....by the California Justice System (even if he killed nobody) seems to bother you.
It is like you think for CM, in some ways, it is not fair, he has been screwed up by TW, SA etc and the Justice...and in those crimes he is kind of a victim who does not deserve what happened to him. If TW was the mind and the body and it was his mess (drug burn, contract, etc...) then CM "was a half-assed nothing who hardly knew how to read or write" like he said it ...
Allthought possible, I have a hard time with this theory, for a drug burn you do not carry a lousy misfiring gun, a rope, knives, you carry 2 big guns plus 2 extra, in case...
When you carry a lousy gun, a rope, knives, and write with blood on the walls and stab deeply the back of a pregnant woman methodicaly in a geometrical way ..........someone must do that to instill fear and terror in a comunity.
The motive, can be much more scary for a rational mind, it probably has to deal with the deepest anger and resentment of one individual who wanted to spit in the face of the Earth once and for all and who in a very crooked way cheated and lied to all his friends, a jealous man with racist theories who could not stand beauty and wealth.
"Manson seemed to pay more attention to her than the other girls when she first arrived"
She WISHes. x;-)
i just have to say it AC no offence i mean it in a good way
YOU WISH!:P:P:P
For a drug burn you do not carry a lousy misfiring gun, a rope, knives, ...
Or a change of clothing, either!
Great post, Angelos
Frank
Deadwood: You always make me giggle.
Angelos: Meth-heads don't make nice rational decisions, nor do they kill people neatly and precisely. Methamphetamine killings are referred to by Our Friends In Law Enforcement as "Two baggers". As in, that is how many garbage bags one needs to clean up the mess.
A.C. Fisher Aldag said...
>>>>Agnostic: No offense. If someone threatened to put My Dear Ones into a juvenile facility, I would likely testify to having killed Jesus himself.
Understandably, but that is not proof of anything. That is merely theory and projection.
>>>She WISHes. x;-)
that's what she said, and I've heard similar statements made by others when they were new. he wanted them to feel like they fit in. And no offense to you but she was indeed there and you were not so I'm going with her on this one.
1. What happened to Marina Habe?
2. What about Darwin Scott?
May I ask WHY these People are up for Parole when they were originally sentenced to Death? It's not our fault that California changed the Law. We have been the ones sentenced.They make us, the Taxpayers,pay for their room and board,their food and their Healthcare.WE wanted them to Die.California should have gotten rid of the Death penalty for everyone EXCEPT the Manson Family.
Talk about a waste of Taxpayer Money.FRY them now. re instate the Death penalty Just for them.We will NEVER forget what they did.
My Tex questions,
Do you realise you are a follower and not capable of forming your own
thoughts and ideas? Charlie to Jesus
Do you really beleive you can brutality stab and kill at least 7 people, and then say, "I repent" and all is forgiven and you get to go to heaven?
If that one is true, I sure am glad I am a atheist
Janson2112 said...
"If that one is true, I sure am glad I am a atheist"
Logically, if that one is true, the last thing you want to be is an atheist !
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