1..... I wish one of these lameass cable channels would actually ask Bugliosi the hard questions about the motive and his insane grandiose dreams.
2..... I wish Rosemary LaBianca's son Frank Struthers would surface so we could ask hard questions about his sister and Joe Dornan... and Tex.
3..... I wish somebody would turn the lights off over at CG's shit group. Since the Col pronounced it dead it has had only a few posts, most of them incoherent ones from Stalking Jim.
4..... I wish Alisa Statman was available so she could explain some of the petty stuff that went on with the Tates towards the end. I know she would have an agenda but I would believe her over most bs sources I connect with.
5..... I wish I had the time to find the Hawthorne cops that Gypsy shot at. Maybe the Discovery Channel would like to speak to THEM.
6..... I wish Hendrickson's new film gets good distribution and starts people talking again.
7.....I wish the police re-opened the Scientology murders case in time for Bruce's next parole hearing.
So many wishes. Ah................
59 comments:
Col you post the most AWESOME! manson stuff on line,sorry i never comment but you rock with information thank you.
Amen, Col...amen. Saturday night I saw some crap show on MSNBC focusing on Leslie Van Houten's parole hearing....and they rehashed all the old Helter Skelter Beatles stuff for the motive. Where is a good investigative reporter when you need one?
7.....I wish the police re-opened the Scientology murders case in time for Bruce's next parole hearing.
Would be nice, for the Gaul and Sharp families deserve closure and an answer to what happened to their loved ones.
If Bruce had a hand in it, then he needs to admit it or be punished for it. A week prior to her murder, Doreen was hit from behind and injured and was planning to return home to NY.
The police had another suspect, that the one cop felt strongly about, but Lt. Deemer didn't.(the man was questioned) Also questioned concerning this, was one Leslie B., who was present at the attack on a man with Victor Wild aka Brother Eli (who visited Manson in jail and ran with the Gypsy Jokers and was a member of the Process Church, not saying either one of the former mentioned groups had anything to do with this), where Victor watched a man get his head slammed in by a car door. Why she was questioned-I don't know but with the wounds to Doreen's face by the bike chain, it certainly is a possibility (along with Bruce)being that Scientology and the Process Church were offshoots of another organization. (to my recollection, and it is early and my brain is fuzzy).Leslie B was also referred to other agencies concerning other unsolved murders in the area.
But the Gaul and Sharp families bith deserve closure and the end to speculation.
Got a couple, three wishes of my own:
*Wish everyone a happy Halloween / braw Nos Galan Gwaef / blessed new year's day.
*Wish that the murder vics would show up and talk to me at our Dumb Supper tomorrow night. Supposedly Abigail Folger performed this ritual, so she knows the drill. Hey, guys, we're having pie, hope to see yah.
*Wish that Mrs. Reichard would understand that I'm eternally grateful to her, BUT, even if she hadn't asked Charles to call me, I'd still think she was mondo cool. Believe it or not, I have friends who ain't ATWA; we talk about the weather, our children, books we've read, magick and music and our gardens and stuff.
May the spirits of our ancestors bless us and protect us during this holy season. Benedythion / Bydd Dedwydd / Blessed Be!
I guess I saw the decoding the past thing on the History Channel (which is really awful, btw, the whole channel) and not MSNBC...my apologies to them.
And in the spirit of AC's good wishes for us, May God bless us all and keep us safe this season.
A.C. Fisher Aldag said...
Got a couple, three wishes of my own:
*Wish everyone a happy Halloween / braw Nos Galan Gwaef / blessed new year's day.
*Wish that the murder vics would show up and talk to me at our Dumb Supper tomorrow night. Supposedly Abigail Folger performed this ritual, so she knows the drill. Hey, guys, we're having pie, hope to see yah.
*Wish that Mrs. Reichard would understand that I'm eternally grateful to her, BUT, even if she hadn't asked Charles to call me, I'd still think she was mondo cool. Believe it or not, I have friends who ain't ATWA; we talk about the weather, our children, books we've read, magick and music and our gardens and stuff.
May the spirits of our ancestors bless us and protect us during this holy season. Benedythion / Bydd Dedwydd / Blessed Be!
5:06 AM, October 30, 20
puplic apology sorry i was rude please forgive and e mail me
Is there any word on how the Hendrickson film will be dsitributed? I would really love to see it.
Cat's Cradle: Please tell me more about the Davis / Zodiac Killer connection, or point me in the direction of some significant online references. If what I assuem is correct, then this theory accounts for some of the more unsavory behavior at the Ranch. Charles seems to have lain down with the proverbial dogs, and arose with a most unfortunate infestation of fleas.
Becca: Sorry I ain't written back to you yet; been wallowing in belladonna for the last couple of days, and I couldn't figure out why all the little letters and numbers kept dancing around on the keyboard. One more weekend to go before I can put Halloween to bed. Talk to ya soon.
Which leads me to another question for my esteemed colleagues here at the OTLMBlog:
Read somewhere -- Paul Watkins's book? -- that Tex had ingested a boiled belladonna root for its hallucinogenic effects. Was pondering the implications, because, well, Belladonna is not indigenous to America, and furthermore, it's a serious poison.
We make an ointment out of Woody or Bittersweet Nightshade, which contains alkaloids that can be absorbed into the bloodstream through the skin, creating the most fascinating visions or hallucinations, which accounts for the profusion of typos that is undoubtedly littering this missive. The plant is sometimes called Belladonna, but it really isn't; not even in the same scientific family, not even containing the same alkaloids. Bleldonna has atropine, while Nightshade has solenium. Either of which could, knock one's senses right out through the ears. (It sure did last night, anyhow.) If Tex had absorbed mass quantities of alkaloids, it could possibly induce a murderous rage in someone so inclined. Coupled with Cocaine and amphetamines? As your herbalist, I highly discourage such a combination.
But EAT it? Oh, hell no. We had a goat consume a few nightshade leaves, then it forthwith suffered for hours foaming at the mouth before dropping over, stiff-as-plywood dead. Somebody isn't being truthful in this respect. If Tex had actally eaten belladonna / nightshade, it's quite likely that none of the unfortunate incidents would have taken place on that hot August night so long ago; the world would be absent one dubious prison ministry, and Charles would be free to create more beautiful music, environmental harmony, and good-looking children, and all would be right with the world.
Wow, sorry about all the typos, but the little fairies are still dancing with colored lights between my swollen eyeballs and the monitor.
Pristash: Good wishes to you, too. :-) You mentioned Leslie and the HS motive... I'm thinking the only one who actually subscribed to the HS philosophy, and possibly even invented it, was Sadie (may she die toothless and alone scorned by her ancestors and forgotten by her descendents.)
Well, see the Colonel's blob of September 17, 2007. See the comments. I posted a link on the supposed research done by Howard Davis, and how the person who runs the site uncovered the truth on Howard's reasearch.
Interesting reading.
LOL-I had no belladonna..
Should be blog, and research, pardon my typos.
a.c. very good point about the drugs. I have always believed that the speed on top of whatever else they were taking around those two days played a much larger role in the killings than most people think. Both Tex and Sadie were on speed that first night (tex having also been tripping on acid and I think chewing some BD that day). Katie was coming down from LSD (not known for inducing violent behavior but likely played a role in her case). Notice Linda is not reported to have been on anything that night, and did not lay a finger on anyone that night or the next.
I'm not saying in a Just Say No way that drugs were *the* cause (there was something in them that allowed them to stab), just that the combinations likely were a huge factor. Had they only been smoking some weed maybe they would have driven around and laughed a lot and then called it a night without any bloodshed.
however, I do believe that HS was more than just a prosecution fairytale or figment of Sadie's mind. I think to varying degrees a lot of them DID buy into it - and charlie wanted it that way.
I beg to differ, Agnostic Monk. Sadie was so into the Beatles, she even named her boy after four notes in the song. Give it a listen, you will hear them. I'm thinking that HS was entirely her drag-race.
Waiting 'til the Henderson movie comes out on DVD so I can watch it at home, and throw things at the screen if necessary.
Woo hoo, got my CSP-Corc visitor pass in the mail today! I jumped up and down screaming in a most unladylike if joyful manner. BTW we are going to San Jose, not San Diego, wrong town, wrong saint... but Jose is much closer to Corcoran, which will save petrol. Any one of you Angelinos wanna do lunch?
HS was entirely Sadie's thing? no way. most likely it was not the only or even the main motive behind these crimes, but the general idea did play a role. the Helter Skelter door at the ranch, Helter Skelter written in blood on the LaBianca fridge door (a house Sadie never entered), the campfire raps about the coming apocalypse that were by many accounts a common occurrence, the inclusion of the phrase in the lexicon of ranch life...
I'll never believe that it was all Sadie's creation, that Charlie didn't have a significant part in the propagation of those HS-ish beliefs, and that they didn't play a part in the crimes.
(and they all listened to the Fab Fourn ot just Sadie)
Taking advantage of this opportunity to "Wish Upon A Star"...
1- I wish I could find out where ole' Clem is these days and what he's been doing all these years since his parole. Just for curiosity sake.
2- I wish, and I really don't know why, to find out where Sandra Good
is these days. I guess it's curiousity due to her somewhat sudden disappearence. She and Stimson were running that website for CM then "poof" they were gone.
Did she just stop her devotion like that ?
3- I wish we all know the complete truth behind TLB one day. I have watched the Col's and Bret's Manson interviews about 100 times literally, and while I realize Manson is mental, there are tips Manson gives that I think tell us there is way more to this than anyone knows. The Geraldo interview particulary.
4- I wish the State of California
will go back to allowing video interviews of inmates. I got a fever ! For more jailhouse Charlie interviews.
5- I wish The Col and all you great contributors will keep this blog running always. It is without a doubt, the BEST source for Manson info on the planet !
davis right on
Monk said:(and they all listened to the Fab Four not just Sadie)
--Vern Plumlee, and a few others brought an advanced copy of I think Abbey Road to the Ranch for everyone to listen to, from what I remember. It is somewhere in the information available on the stuff.
Brian said:
3- I wish we all know the complete truth behind TLB one day. I have watched the Col's and Bret's Manson interviews about 100 times literally, and while I realize Manson is mental, there are tips Manson gives that I think tell us there is way more to this than anyone knows. The Geraldo interview particulary.
--Have you seen the uncut version of the Murphy interview? There is a lot going on in that one too.
A.C
Bruce Davis was ruled out as being a suspect in the Zodiac murders by the FBI some time ago.
hey, does anyone happen to know where Diane Lake is these days? She would be early-to-mid 50s I would guess.
wasnt that who charlie was surposed to be doing the time of the murders
no that was stephanie schram, another one of his underaged conquests. yuck.
agnostic monk said...
no that was stephanie schram, another one of his underaged conquests. yuck.
8:28 PM, November 02, 2007
lol thanks monk .
Agnostic: HS was painted on the door at the Spahn ranch because the musical band maintained a coffee house / jam session, and that was the name of the place, "The Helter Skelter Cafe". Sort of like calling a salon "The Apocalypse". From what I understand it attracted the cutting-edge artists of the day.
Note that I said that Sadie originated the HS concept, not that she was the ONLY one subscribing to it. (May she die painfully of suppurating boils.) And Charles didn't particularly cotton to the Beatles; to him, they were / are just another band for the younger set. BTW, Cat's,"HS" and "Sexy Sadie" appear on the White (untitled) album, NOT Abbey Road. Where you, too can hear the notes Zee Zoe Zee See if you listen carefully enough. The fact that Sadie named her child after a very occluded four notes of an obscure song, possibly rendering the lad as the object of playground ridicule, causes me to believe that it was SHE who was seriously into the music, to the point of delusion. May she be tormented by plagues of ravening body lice.
There are literally hundreds of end-of-the-world fables from dozens of cultures, and the "hole in the earth" story occurs in five or six that I can recall, in my current state of post-belladonic-haze. (Quick, everyone, from what song is THAT stanza?) Possibly prophecy + amphetamines + the unique warped nature of the actual perpetrators = murder. And that is the prophet's fault HOW?
Mr. Davis: Sandra & George needed to take a breather from Our Glorious Cause, because they've been at it for over a decade, and it really is a gruelling full-time job. They'll return when they are darn good and ready. And why not interview Charles your ownself, rather than relying upon the filters of commercialism and media sensationalism imposed by hte likes of Geraldo? I would do so for you, but would rather discuss the mysteries of the Universe and poetry and such; I leave hashing out 35-year-old true crimes to my dealings w/ ya'all here on the OTLMBlog.
Suffice to say, Charles didn't do it, he's the political prisoner of an unjust regime, sucks to be him.
Ummm, I knew it was on the White Album. I made reference to Abbey Road to show that the Beatles were listened to. Gregg Jakobson even in an interview stated that he wondered what would have happened if Abbey Road came out first.
Not in reference to Sadie. Really couldn't give two flying batshits where Sadie got that goofy name from.
I never said that it was all the fault of "the prophet," just that "the prophet" played a significant role in how things turned out. Sure the prosecutors and the media probably exaggerated his role (the media exaggerates everything and always has) but "the prophet" really gave them A LOT to run with all on his own. "the prophet" now plays down that role, even though he did a lot to encourage things.
I will never get over the image of him entering the home of the LaBiancas and helping Tex restrain them, telling terrified Rosemary and Leno that "everything will be ok," and then splitting. The media concept of the crazy wild-eyed teenager-controlling cult killer is a bit of a cartoon. The crude reality is far more sinister, IMHO.
Sorry, Cat's, I misunderstood you.
The reference was to illustrate that Sadie was so into the band and the song, that she named her child after the tune. If Abbey Road had been relased first, she would've likely killed people and blamed it on "Maxwell's Silver Hammer".
Agnostic: Hmm, instead I contemplate the image of Charles receiving a traffic citation 100 or so miles on down the road... while our lad Tex perused the LaBianca home for Mafia-engendered drug money. To each their own.
while on his way where? oh that's right, to kill Linda's boyfriend...
LOL, yes, and then Charlie would have been freed to save the earth with as much staying power as he stuck to the two MEAL hunger strike in prison.
And then, Sadie still would have went on to name her child after the sound she heard after someone let out a noxious butt cheek flapping fart after consuming their bean and rice meals. Which, indeed if you listen to the Zezo name, it is also still quite possible.
Hahaha, reckon that was what she was trying to mis-spell in blood on the wall, red beans and "rice" rather than "rise".
LOL. That would be hard, since Sadie wasn't at the LaBianca residence where "Rise" was found. The one with the misspelling problem was Pat-and her Healter Skelter.
Sadie's spelling was just fine as evidenced by her spelling of "Pig" at Cielo. :-)
and your right cats who gives a rats ass about VD sadie
Deadwoodhbo said: "oh my god manson adored the Beatles i stake me ass on that one"
Oh, really? That is not what I've been told.
But then again, I was also recently informed that SOMEbody has been trash-talking me all up one side of 4-A 4-R and down the other. Any truth to THAT particular rumor, pray tell?
Truth will out; it always does.
A.C. About the traffic citation 100 or so miles down the road while Tex perused the LaBianca home for Mafia drug money ~ wasn't the citation issued on August 7 and didn't Charlie and Stephanie return to Spahn's for the second time that week early on August 8 being greeted with the news of Bobby's arrest? Are you contemplating that Tex was in the LaBianca home two days before their murder?
whoops sorry Col
I may be confused (it happens) but I am under the impression that the traffic citation was issued on 9 August... but nobody really knows for sure, as both the ticket and the police officer that issued it were conveniently disposed of by the powers that be. Or so I understand.
The ticket was on August 7, issued by California Highway Patrol Officer Richard C. Willis. The time of the ticket was 6:15 PM. The ticket was given ten miles east of Oceanside on Interstate 5.Manson gave his correct information and signed the ticket. The ticket was found by Officers Patchett and Gutierrez.
Thank you, Cats, for the information. That's what I'm here for. :-) Better for me to look stupid here amongst the experts, than to be confused in the matter of facts and issues when seated in the blazing hot seat of public scrutiny...!
Not stupid. But in effect the traffic citation worked against placing Manson elsewhere. It was in the bread truck that Sandy and I forget who else got popped buying nuts (sweets for the sweet) on a stolen credit card and the breadtruck got impounded.
So, the citation actually placed Manson returning to the Ranch, in effect for Sandy and company to get popped using the bread truck.
Cats,
Sandy was in the van with Mary when they were arrested. It could be one reason why Mary didn't go to the Tates/LaBiancas.
Just an idea
Jean
True Jean.
I tend to believe that Sandy was a lot of hot air, though.(not complaining about that though, really).
Mary, I am wondering if she would kill. Don't know on her, any thoughts?
since Mary open fired (I think, not sure even though she was there - Col?) on the cops during the Hawthorne shootout, it might be safe to assume she had it in her to kill when deemed necessary. She also spent those three days at Gary's house while he slowly died, she was already wrapped up in murder like Sadie. Gary was a friend, strangers' lives would have meant nothing to her. Plus she had a drivers license so she would have made a logical substitute for Kasabian on the way to Cielo. And she wouldn't have gotten upset and got all up in their faces about making it stop and hearing people coming (not that those protests really interfered with the proceedings).
I believe she had it in her to enter the Tate house and help out, which would have also meant a bit less of a struggle on the part of the victims. That's my $.02 about Mary. She was pretty wacked.
Okay, being that the plates on Swartz's death trip car came from a different vehicle, why would it matter if someone had a valid license or not? For at points Watson and Manson both drove...
And agreeable so, about Hinman. So, good point there.
My self I agree with Monk I think Mary would have killed.She was right there at Gary's and did not do anything to stop it.
I also agree with Cats about the driver's license.
The car license plates were not for that car.So someone having a valid license.. would still get arrested and the car impounded..if the police stopped the car.
Hate to say this Monk. But Mary was just like Linda.She was there when Murder takes place and does nothing to stop it.
A.C.
Whether or not you believe Helter Skelter (the book) the Bug had to prove that CM's van was not anywhere else in California on August 8th and 9th. He did that. He found the ticket that Charlie received. That is a fact - you can't fake traffic citations.
It is also a fact that Mary and Sandy were arrested on August 8th.
As for Mary being capable of murder, I agree with Monk. She totally was. She was at Hinman's house for the 3 days before his death. The man had helped her when her own child was born the year before but obviously she had no qualms about taking money from him (inheritance??) and she didn't have a problem with someone stabbing Gary or she would have done something either at the time or shortly thereafter.
Mary was a flake. She perjured herself on the stand whether that was by bullying by the officers on the case or whatever - she lied to protect her friends and she also took a deal to save her own ass so she is a definite conundrum to say the least.
Of course, this is jmo.
Yes Mary was a flake.
The whole flip-flop to save her child I don't buy either. For if she was that concerned about the welfare of her child she would not have gotten mixed up in the Hawthorne shoot-out but instead opted to stay with her child.
She flipped and flopped so much, and yet still kept her immunity deal for the outcome of the lawsuit was that even though she perjured herself, the outcome of her testimony was construed as to be the same as if she kept to her original story. (at least that is my reading of the case).
For being so concerned and saying the children meant everything, it appears as if the children were not really regarded so highly. Look at how Dennis Rice's kids lived in that chicken coop too.
Ms. Harlow: I believe the facts as stated in the book HS, that which is provable, but not Mr. Bugliosis' theories & suggested motives.
And the traffic ticket mistake was all mine, nobody else told me that happened, no hippie cult leaders whispered it in my ear or anything. (How's THAT for a disclaimer?)
LOL-then I take it, George Bush is busy...good god, thank goodness the Salem witch trials were years ago or I would be frightened for my safety...LOL..
Who was a Hippie Cult Leader ?
Ms. Harlow: I believe the facts as stated in the book HS, that which is provable, but not Mr. Bugliosis' theories & suggested motives.
And the traffic ticket mistake was all mine, nobody else told me that happened, no hippie cult leaders whispered it in my ear or anything. (How's THAT for a disclaimer?)
A.C.,
I think you are overreacting to this. In past posts you have floated some bizarre theories whereas most of the people on this blog try to deal in cold hard facts. Maybe, I was abrasive but I get tired of people going on tangents. We have a great group (hi Monk, Cats, and 60sKid) and we share ideas without getting nasty. I have no idea what your comment "no hippie cult leaders whispered it in my ear or anything. (How's THAT for a disclaimer?)" means. Nor, for that matter do I care. Let's move on and discuss these ideas with some decorum.
I think you have some interesting points and I would hate to think that you have a hidden agenda when you post here... again this is just my opinion. Sometimes I make mistakes too but that's how we all learn.
Jean Harlow,
Hi and I think your last post was very nice and I agree 1oo percent with you
60s I understand your perspective fully. On the surface I agree with you. On a bit deeper level I think they were different.
and no district attorney whispered in my ear or anything - sorry just being a smartass.
(I feel like I'm having this same discussion over and over, LOL. watch Monk chase his tail).
p.s. 60s I'm glad you're posting.
Jean, maybe I should stay out of this, but I think all AC meant by the whispering comment was a reference to the fact that as a defender of manson "the man,"she perhaps sometimes is accused of being a brainwashed follower of manson "the media myth." not on this blog but elsewhere would be my guess.
I just wanted to say hello to jean ,and thank all you guys for such interesting post's.
Well said Jean.
And Monk, I didn't know Monk's had tails? ;) I think we may revert back to the same subjects but over time I think we add new perspectives to things as we learn from everything here.
60's, as always good to see you. Being a "child" of the 60's (as I am only born in the 60's) you add a lot to the discussion with that knowledge of what things were like.
Agnostic Monk Said:
"I think all AC meant by the whispering comment was a reference to the fact that as a defender of manson "the man," she perhaps sometimes is accused of being a brainwashed follower of manson "the media myth." not on this blog but elsewhere would be my guess."
That would be correct, Monk. My support of Charles has been such a popular conversation-starter at those American Legion Auxillary dinners. NOT.
Ms. Harlow said:
"hate to think that you have a hidden agenda when you post here..."
I'd thought that my agenda was quite blantantly obvious. :-)
We're planning to open a Manson Family Car Wash franchise, which will utilize only the highest quality biodegradable soap. So many of the younger ladies look quite fetching in bikinis, but that won't furnish quite enough distraction when patrons bring in their Mercedes minivans for detailing and happen to inquire about the murder trials. So I wish to prepare myself by advancing my outrageous theories and asking monotonous questions here on the OTLMBlog, amongst those of you who know the case like the back of your hands, before I'm caught dumb with a cruelty-free chamois cloth in one hand, a vial of organic car wax in the other, and no decent response to the queries of the nice soccer mom who holds the mistaken impression that Mr. Manson is a murderer. Besides, the enterprise will raise funds for American Turkeys With Attitude, as well as endow Charles with the really GOOD commissary package. Hope that clears things up for you-uns in regard to agendas.
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