Sources and information agree that Sharon wasn't thought to be at Cielo that night. So there is no connection to the motive. Woman just was at the wrong place and the very wrong time.
Same with Parent. Whether he serviced Garrettson or got serviced by him (ummm I mean "tried to sell him a stolen clock radio") Tex and the gals certainly had no idea that he was up there. So wrong place, wrong time again.
I don't think they were after Jay. If they were, the motives include
1- Drugs
2- Drugs
3- Bad Haircuts
4- Tied up Naked Women (his thing)
5- Drugs
Examined in order
1- He used a lot of them
2- They were sold through the salons
3- Have you seen these things?
4- Could he have pissed off the wrong husband?
5-Did he have some drug connection to Tex who worked in a fully equipped Salon at one point?
Then we have Voytek. The motivations there include-
1- Drugs
2- Drugs
3- Polish Mafia
4- Drugs
Examined in Order
1- Did he sell bad ones?
2- Did he steal some?
3- Did I make this up?
4- Did he step on the wrong toes?
Now let's look at Abilgail
1- Drugs
2- Money and lots of it
3- Social Activism
4- The Coffee Wars
5- Drugs
And Examined in order
1- Doesn't seem like she did much more than smoke some weed. But her BF was a heavy duty user and dealer which brings this motivation into the equation.
2- Girlfriend was rich as hell, a bona fide heiress for god's sake. Who benefited by her death? Lt. Columbo would look into that.
3- She seemed to be ahead of the curve as far as equal rights and shit, at least by what we are told. Did the Establishment have a problem with this?
4- Goddamn Starbucks!
5- She supposedly worked at centers to help people get off Drugs. Did she meet a maniac or two there?
Looking at this all closely we have-
A- Lots of Drugs- which is the probably connection to everything if the killer knew Melcher was gone. But I don't think they DID know.
B- A big mess- why kill people for no reason, Tex you fucking animal!
Here's a newly uncovered photo of Abigail. It is lovely.
What do you all think?
19 comments:
I think where we should look into this begins with VF trying to establish himself via the canadians as the biggest MDA supplier in SoCal...
So who would have a problem with this? Who else aspired to become this? More importantly probably is who did indeed become the largest MDA supplier in SoCal in 1969 post murders?
Somebody has got to know...freaking LAPD, impress me by coming up with the answer!
"with a whole head (barring any adventures with Georgian tea)".
When I was in college in Arizona we used to mix hallucinogens in a metal tea ball with tea and drink it.
That's the first thing that popped into my head when I read her note on the photo.
I believe that Gibby and Voytek and Jay definitely all had prior contact with several of the Manson clan through the Laurel Canyon area.
Consider the coincidences -
Jay and Tex both were in the same business both professionally and in there personal habits. in the same close proximity.
Bobby and Jay both appear in the same movie
Bobby spent time with Frank Zappa who lived in the canyon, and hosted many parties and had many crashers. There were many many musicians in the canyon at this time including Mama Cass who was a known friend of Gibby- and they all partied together all over the canyon...
Example- all I have never read about how Cappy gillies entered the family was that she was a " Buffalo Springfield groupie"
Well, all members of that band were in the canyon at this time... was she hanging around one of there parties or shows when she ran into the Manson people? Were they all in the same place at the same time??
There are several stories and accounts of the Manson family spending time at this same place- the log cabin ( or Tom Mix house)
Drugs are the obvious connection, and they were all using and all dealing to each other. Someone screwed someone and it probably comes down to something as basic as that.... The Manson clan knew that Melcher wasn't in Cielo house anymore because Manson had been to Melcher's new place. I also believe Dean Moorhouse stayed there for awhile after Melcher moved out. I think that Manson people probably got screwed on a drug deal, and that Charlie started to figure that between Music, and Drugs- these people weren't showing him the respect he deserved. I think he figured that once they had given him all he was getting- his real character showed up, and he got jealous and enraged that he wasn't going to live the life that he was seeing others live all around him.
Ignorance is bliss. When Charlie had nothing- it was one thing. But after spending time in Wilson's house, and cruising around in Melcher's Jag- with a group of people telling him how great he was.. it must have really sucked going back to live in a sleeping bag out on an old ranch.. and when he started to realize that he was never going to be a perm part of that world it must have really hit home hard- and then if that same group of people had ripped him off on top of that.... well maybe there is your real motivation. However the Beautiful people did a god job of keeping there involvement quiet. I go back to this again....
The laurel canyon connection. Who knew who, and who partied with who, and who sold to who? These are real life motives and real life scenarios that were playing out all of the time. Look at the other most heinous crime in California History- the Wonderland murders- same area, and probably a similar motive- revenge and drugs..
By the way- what a really incredible photo. It is so surreal to read her own words and hear her thoughts in such a simple, random way... Abagail Folger really is one of the most fascinating people in this story... Thanks Col. This is something totally new to me :) I think she had a very sweet personality and I think her outgoing friendly personality and location matched Mama Cass Elliots perfectly, and I think it was this friendship that ultimately led her into the path of the people who would do her in...
You beat me to the punch on a couple of things, St. C.
I would add:
Haight Ashbury Free Clinic
* Folgers were major donors.
* Dr. Dave Smith knew Manson, various Family members
* Manson possibly met Folger via the clinic. She was believed to have given him money over a period of time, before stopping. As Gary Hinman discovered, this can be bad for your health.
Esalen
* One of last calls from Cielo was to there.
* Manson was there immediately prior to the murders
* He was supposedly rejected there in some manner.
* Folger was connected to Esalen as a person who studied there.
I would sum up the confused "logic" in Charlies mind at the time of the murders as a chaotic mix of paranoia resulting from the murder of Hinman and the presumed murder of Lotsapoppa, and anger at groups and specific individuals resulting from feelings of rejection/betrayal.
Not that far off from the motives as examined in the trial, where Charlies anger at the establishment was discussed at length. "Helter Skelter", was really about inciting racial strife, thereby putting the heat on the Black Panthers and the cops while moving the Family out to the desert. Not such a wild fantasy as some have made it out to be. Maybe more a clever employment of mythology as a motivational/learning device to reinforce a group goal.
I am still hearing " Helter Skelter", and Polish Mafia... lol
People- much time has passed, and the passing down of stories and rumors after all these years has had a great effect on peoples imaginations. There is no doubt who killed the people in question. The only remaining question is why...
Personally it is much easier for me to understand the dynamic of a group of people falling in, and running around with a bad group of people and paying a price for it- than it is to believe lot of the conspiracy theories.
Maybe there was no evil, or magic, or demons, or jesus/devils...
Maybe a bunch of scumbags got ripped off, and maybe there leader was disrespected, and pissed- and maybe they decided to teach someone a lesson.
Take all the variables away ( the fame of the victims, the circumstances of the suspects, the lifestlyes and the locations- and this type of thing happens every day in this country...
The real interesting thing to know would be the connections, and how they interrelated which each other.. Who knew who- who was involved with who. and excatly which incident caused the final blow up between all of them- these - to me- are the really mysteries of TLB...
Ok, Drugs is the common denominator...VF handles the dealing but Roman Polanski is the money or is Abigail funding it all ?
Blipcrotch pointed out something I have always thought was more than coincidence, the Esalen connection.
Esalen
* One of last calls from Cielo was to there.
* Manson was there immediately prior to the murders
* He was supposedly rejected there in some manner.
* Folger was connected to Esalen as a person who studied there.
So, was Voytek or Abigail the target or both, if the underworld knew VF and AF were a couple and both involved in the game.
So, a drug burn goes down and the LA underworld goes to Manson and they say Voytek and Abigail need to go.
Manson carrys out the "orders", because he's a real outlaw, by getting Tex to do the dirty work in return for the Crowe situation.
Manson gets the girls to do it under the "helter skelter" guise.
The drug connection or drug burn may explain Tate but what about LaBianca ? Were the two connected in regards to motive ?
Or was Manson getting two different situations taken care of on successive nights ?
Here is what I don't understand:
If Gibby and Voytek were the main targets, then why didn't Tex and the girls go in there and just kidnap those two? Voytek was the first one that they encountered, and then they saw Gibby. They may have been able to get them out of there without Jay and Sharon knowing because they were talking in the bedroom.
Boyz and Girlz, the $64,K question is where did the drugs come from in the first place? They didn't get 'em out of a vending machine.
A.C. knowing who had which drugs, and who sold to who, and what all there relationships were to each other may very well be the 64,000 question, because those may also be the keys to unlocking the real motive in my estimation. The more I read and learn about the Canyon scene in that time frame- the more I become convinced alot of Manson people were a big part of it- and there was no shortage of drugs in those days in those parts...
Ok, AC...literally, Joel Rostau delivered drugs up to Cielo the day of the murders...supposedly was to score some more too but wasn't able, so he never went back. Saved his life, until December when he was found dead in the trunk of a car at Kennedy Airport.
Hmmmm......
In a suitcase too if I remember correctly...
I dug this up from a Bobby interview. It sort of underscores my hopes that he might be able to deliver a bit more about the TRUTH
You know, one thing I've learned from all this is that the truth is colored by the light. All of those books that were written about those events—Bugliosi's, Ed Sander's, and others—have a certain thread of factual truth, these collections of "facts." I suppose these chronological recordings of events that happened are reasonably accurate in terms of these facts, but the real truth of it does not come through those books.- It's not in those facts. Knowing the people and knowing more or less what actually had happened, and then seeing how it's represented is . . . I've learned how history is written, and it makes all of history suspect.
So Please Bobby- let us know lol Tell us what really happened!!!
You guys are hitting on the very things that fascinate me about this case. I don't think any of the women know the true motivation. I look forward to Gypsy's book if it ever gets published but I don't think it will address these issues. The women were left out of the loop.
As it's been said before, Bruce is likely the only one that would know. I believe CM trusted him more than the others. Unfortunately I think he will take it all to his grave.
CM's movements during the days before the murders are also key. Is Stephanie Shramm still alive?
SA says in her book... SS came to visit her in prison( and that she converted to JC etc...)...is she the same SS ?
now for the motives etc... CM would have recieved money for a drug deal etc contract right ?...and there is no evidence of monney whatsoever generated by CM, his revenues were from his friends stealing from others ...right ?...CM could not generate one cent out of his work or music.
So the theory of the drug etc is very very unlikely.
Someone has to carefully examine the true motivations of CM suggestions...
they are probably very selfish...
Ange- no evidence of money whatsoever????
Lets see...
They were doing drugs constantly-
They had weapons- not just knives, but guns and even a machine gun
They had Dune buggies- some stolen for sure- but not all.. custom made 500 gallon gas tanks need 500 gallons of gas..
There were vans and bread trucks, and other vehicles over time they had use of
and most important they traveled all the time- back and forth to the desert- in and out of the Valleys and canyons who paid for all the gas? How long do credit cards stay stolen before someone reports them missing...
Just before the murders Charlie took Stephanie from the Big Sur all the way to San Diego, and then Back to Chatsworth- gas/tolls- food all week....
From the moment Charlie got out of prison he never held a job, and the entire time he was on a non stop vacation traveling at will, using drugs daily, and sporting whatever musical/ physical equipment he needed...
and he maintained this lifestyle with up to thirty people at a time???
Wouldn't you say they had some income coming from somewhere???
And I agree- it wasn't from his musical career...
Alot of it was stolen, scammed, or wiggled away from parents- BUT it couldn't all have been.
They had money coming in... And you can bet drugs were a big part of the currency they were trading in...
There is no doubt CM was very selfish, and perhaps it was this which caused problems when those whose stopped supplying the flow of drugs/money got caught up in his anger???
Yes Matt, Stephanie is still alive according to the well informed folks over at that other blog.
I agree with St. C.... you have to reckon with certain concrete facts like dune buggies with machine gun mounts welded on them, bunkers, supply caches, field communications, things that took a lot of time, effort and money to assemble when trying to ascertain what was going on back then.
Manson Inc. resorted to numerous criminal activities (including drug dealing, credit card fraud, prostitution, car theft and burglary) to finance all of this activity. Charlie himself admits it.
Whether it was the bags of coins taken from the LaBianca residence, the cars from Hinman, or the paltry cash taken from the Polanski house, at least feeble efforts to glean something financial were undertaken in all cases. In a sense, since Bernard Crowe was owed money which was not paid on account of him being shot you can say that is also true in that case as well.
It could just be that Manson and his gang were just too whacked out on psychedelics and end-times ideology to make sensible efforts at making murder pay. They had a vague notion that killing people and taking their stuff would be profitable in terms of funding their ongoing end times preparations, but it was a bad business plan.
There were three basic motives behind the murders that took place sometime past midnight on August 9. The most obvious was the one Charlie had articulated to us that afternoon: to do what blackie didn't have the energy or the smarts to do-ignite Helter Skelter and bring in Charlie's kingdom. There was also the need for more cash, first of all to finance our preparations for Armageddon-the same thing that had motivated the drug burn and Bernard Crowe's supposed murder, the killing of Gary Hinman, and all the proposed abductions and murders in the Chatsworth area-and also to pay $600 bail for Mary Brunner, who had been arrested earlier that day for using a stolen Sears' credit card. If she had not been in custody, Mary would most likely have been the one sent with us that night, instead of Linda, since Mary had the other valid driver's license in the Family and had already proven herself at Gary Hinman's. Beyond getting money and bringing down Helter Skelter, there was a third, less important purpose: to clear Bobby Beausoleil of the Hinman slaying by committing a similar crime while he was in jail.
a quote from Charles "Tex" Watson. I know there are some who would challenge anything coming from this source, for a variety of reasons, but the discussion always comes back this way for a reason. It rings true. No one has come up with a convincing alternative scenario in the 40 long years of digging around in this case.
St. Circumstance said...
"People- much time has passed, and the passing down of stories and rumors after all these years has had a great effect on peoples imaginations. There is no doubt who killed the people in question. The only remaining question is why...
Personally it is much easier for me to understand the dynamic of a group of people falling in, and running around with a bad group of people and paying a price for it- than it is to believe lot of the conspiracy theories.
The real interesting thing to know would be the connections, and how they interrelated which each other.. Who knew who- who was involved with who. and excatly which incident caused the final blow up between all of them"
Which simply leads to more fertile imagination activity and conspiracy theories.
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