Wednesday, January 18, 2006

Stage Managed To Death


















If you are a scholar of TLB then you follow other cases at least with some interest. Yesterday I asked an obvious question- have you ever heard of another case with blood writing on the walls? Even Jeff MacDonald, after killing his entire family and trying to make it seem like a Manson thing, didn't write in blood on the walls.

Well, disbarred attorney or not, I have never seen another case where the star witness for the prosecution held a PRESS CONFERENCE before she even testified at trial.

You have a star witness, you want to keep him/her locked up and silent, using what they have to say as a bombshell so you win the case. You don't put on a pony show with them since you have nothing to gain.

But as historians of the Col, we know BUG did indeed have something to gain. He had to rehabilitate his witness even before she got up there. Because the obvious question (Why did you go the second night and not call anyone you selfish bitch?) could never come up.

So a press conference, with her lawyers of course, not the BUG, to start painting the image of the scared little hippie girl was the way to go. And Kasabian comes off as a hero rather than a multi-murderer.

See... I want this blog to make you think. WHY would you not conclude IMMEDIATELY that there was a high chance that Hinman was related to Tate? WHY would you have a press conference for your star witness EXCEPT To win your case in the press? What was BUG so afraid of?

Think people, think!

44 comments:

agnostic monk said...

Hi there Col, from one of your biggest fans! Long time no talk. I'm so happy your blog is still going. You couldn't very well expect me to stay away when you're still crucifying Linda Kasabian (tee hee).

Kasabian didn't have anything to prove to the press. Her job was to tell the truth to the jury. Details about her irresponsible drifter past were already getting out into the press, some of it not true and a lot of it coming straight from the Manson family girls on the outside in their famous (and ultimately preposterous) attempt to slander and blame Linda for masterminding the murders. Receiving death threats in prison as well as bizarre letters from Sandy Good trying to intimidate her into not snitching.

Everyone knew that Linda had been "one of THEM". Bugliosi needed to make a distinction between Linda and the Sadies of the family. He needed to make sure it was understood that "Look, this girl is not an angel, but she IS different from the robots who held down and stabbed" (And Col, I'll say it again and again and again, she is not an angel, but she IS NOT Sadie, or Pat, or even Squeaky).

But as far as the timing of the press conference, I guess I'm flunking your test because I don't have an answer as to why beyond the idea that he was already writing his book. Bugliosi's ambition was not Linda's fault.

I was only a year old when this case went to trial, so I don't remember personally the perception of people like Kasabian by the media and the public. But based on what I've read, she never came off as a hero. She came off as cautionary, a flawed girl from a broken home, a fuck-up who got into something much bigger than herself, a girl who was (as her childhood neighbor said to the press) "introverted but likeable, and grew up way too fast." And prior to Spahn Ranch, she really did fit the classic picture of a hippie.

Where am I going with this babbling? If I wasn't running on very little sleep I'd be more clear. Linda is still out there and her life has been tragic. The killers all have college degrees, warm beds, and well-balanced meals. The Brendas and the Gypsys have escaped the past and sip tea while talking about Jesus.

And then there's Linda. What does it do to a person to watch a man's head get bashed in with a gun bunt and lock eyes with him as he is dying? To watch a young woman get chased down, tackled, and stabbed to death a few feet from you? 35 years later and did she ever really escape? What kind of trouble has brewed in her heart and her head for all these years? Can any of us even remotely imagine?

I just think it's sad.

You want to keep punishing her. I'd say she's had punishment enough.

But, as always, I luvs the Col and thank you for your awesome blog.

ColScott said...

Welcome Back Monk,

The post was to to keep punishing her, and I vary from day to day in my feelings about her.
The post was about how BUG stage managed her.
HIM I want to punish.

Pristash said...

I'm thinking...I'm thinking....

Salem said...

Has any one like even Tex or Susan or Pat mentioned to anyone that she (LINDA) was at The Tate home the day of Aug8th? That she and TEX were there !

Deb B said...

Love the pigtails - did she wear those before the events that made her famous, or were those also part of the staging?

My biggest problem with her is that she went along for the ride to TLB - she witnessed a lot at the Tate residence - and didn't say a thing to anyone until she was busted.

agnostic monk said...

Hi salem, I've heard the rumor that Tex and Linda were at the Tate house the day of or the day before the murders for a drug transaction, but I've never heard it confirmed by any of the participants. Tex has confirmed that Manson was at the Tate house I think the night prior to the murders, but I've never heard him mention visiting with Linda.

Sandra Good did say in the Manson documentary that they got in the car and "Linda drove them to the Tate house, because she had been there before." Or something to that effect. Of course this is practically in the same breath that she's talking about Charlie bringing a dead bird back to life in the desert.

Were they there that day? Why is it so hard to get the story straight from everyone involved? Did Tex and Linda's visit to Cielo before the night ride come out in the ridiculous "Linda masterminded the murders" campaign during the penalty phase?

Salem said...

Did Tex and Linda's visit to Cielo before the night ride come out in the ridiculous "Linda masterminded the murders" campaign during the penalty phase?


I was told Mecher gave Lil Darling and Tex about 8 grand and told them to go to Cielo, and they could buy some *good stuff*
The money was handed over and V.F. told them to come back later. The 2 came back and V.F. still had nothing for them ..He (V.F)threatened Tex and Linda, told that he was gonna call the cops. Linda said CALL THEM*
then V.F. said something to the effect, *who would the cops beleive , US are u dirty hippies!
also if i remember correctly later that night there was a call made from the ranch to Sharon's home.
just my thoughts , that Abby told Sharon what happened and is why Sharon called off the get together she had planned that night.
would also explain why Abby smiled when one of the girls passed by her door that night.
And wasnt Abby and V.F. the most wounded of all ?

agnostic monk said...

hi salem, I've heard something similar but never that detailed. I'd love to know where you heard that. I've just read rumors, nothing concrete or confirmed by anyone involved.

It's a little hard to believe that something this relevant did not come out at trial or in the press.

agnostic monk said...

You know what else I notice about the pigtail pic at the bottom? She really looks like Clea Duvall, the actress who played her in the 2004 Helter Skelter TV Prequel, although I don't think Clea wore pigtails during that movie (just bad wigs). But the face is Clea all the way.

Oh wait I think she wore pigtails during the scene when Linda and Sadie are digging through the garbage for food and talking about going to the desert and Sadie telling Linda that Charlie is Jesus and Linda looking at Sadie like "ok, maybe, wait, Jesus? What the fuck!"

That movie is flawed on many levels, but Clea sure nailed Linda at least in looks.

Salem said...

It wouldnt be made public as BUG wanted to have L.K. to LIE .(to feed his theory) his fairy tale of MURDER and brainwashing and mind control) She got out for her LIES. What bothers me is after all these years why doesnt TEX tell what REALLY happened. OH maybe the DRUGS messes up his memory.
If anyone ever runs into LINDA ask her does she remeber going to the bathroom at Tates home and doing a line with Abby, that Aug 8th.
And IF Charlie intented to send any one , surely it would not be TEX! Bruce was next in line.
Manson had just got in California that evening..he and Stephanie.
Manson did PLOT that murder.
I wish the truth would be told . Linda abd Tex are the ones who know.. The others were murdered!!!
and maybe the truth will never be told.
God knows Tex will never tell. He blames it all on Charlie.

Bruce Hall said...

Didn't Clea Duvall play Sadie in the 2004 Helter Skelter movie with Jeremy Davies?

The movie was crap. Any resemblence to Charles Manson and the historical facts of the case are purely coincidental.

Even Tex Watson, in his own review on the abounding love ministries website, gave it a big thumbs down.

I'm pretty sure that Clea Duvall played Sadie. May have to check that one out.

agnostic monk said...

Clea played Linda Kasabian in the 2004 movie. Sadie was played by an actress named Marguerite Moreau.

I'd like to see a movie deal honestly with the story as closely as possible to the truth.

agnostic monk said...

salem, where did you hear that Linda entered the Tate house to use the bathroom and did a line with Abby? That's pretty huge!

How do we know that half these rumors we pass around online are even close to the actual truth? I agree, those involved know but don't seem to be clearing things up.

Unless (and I just mention it as a possibility among many possibilities) the killers are all telling the truth as best they can remember.

I doubt anyone's going to run into Linda, she's most likely doing her best not to be run into these days. And I doubt she'd talk. She's been virtually silent since the trial, seeming to want nothing to do with the publicity. The writer Joan Didion was supposedly collaborating with Linda on a book about life with Manson but that fell by the wayside.

It's a little hard to believe that Bugliosi could have kept that little diddy about Linda and Tex in the Tate house out of the press. Reporters were digging pretty deep to find details and clues about these people. But then again, there's a lot about this case that's hard to believe so who knows.

GLH said...

I've never heard anything about Linda and Tex threatening Frykowski the day before. Tex did tell me that Manson had been there the night before, but who knows.....

Salem said...

It's a little hard to believe that Bugliosi could have kept that little diddy about Linda and Tex in the Tate house out of the press.

OMG
of course BUG would not want us to know that anyone from the ranch hung out or dealt drugs with anyone there. That would ruin his STORY!
Did BUG even mention in his book that Dean Moorehouse lived in Roman's home at one time?
NO Linda wouldnt confess to that NOW. Bet she told Tex tho.(that day)
Her drug daze may have linited her memory BUT i am sure she recall That day.

agnostic monk said...

salem, you misunderstand me. I get what you are saying about a little detail implicating Tex and Linda in a Tate house drug deal and how that would interfere with Bugliosi's angle. Sure, he'd want to keep that detail hidden.

What I am saying is that Bugliosi was not omnipotent. Would he really have the power to keep something like that squelched? The defense would have been aggressively seeking out that kind of information and would have used it if they found it.

The girls on the corner were saying all kinds of shit to the press. They wouldn't tell the press about Tex and Linda and a Tate house drug deal if they thought it would help Charlie?

The girls made up all kinds of crazy shit during the penalty phase, on the stand. Why would they need to make shit up if they had that true-life tidbit to share?

Wouldn't Irving Kanarek and Co. have been all over that? The closest he came to using something like that was tossing a picture of a bloody Sharon Tate corpse onto Kasabian's lap during cross, a stunt that only served to convince the jury more of Kasabian's truthfulness.

Yes, I have a hard time believing that wouldn't come out somehow.

Bruce Hall said...

(Spits)
That's what i think of Linda Kasabian.

That witch sold out her friends to save her own ass. It's amazing how Bugliosi managed to paint this creature as pure as the white driven snow.

She was outside of the Tate house when all of that shit went down and she just stood there and did nothing. She knew it was going to happen and she was right there when Stephen Parent got clipped. She could have bailed out right then and there but she stayed.

To make matters even worse, she's in the car once again when the arrived at the LaBianca house. But keep in mind that they were all driving around Los Angeles for hours before that looking for someone to murder. Why didn't she bail out knowing full well they were going to kill again?

She is far from the "Poor little Linda Kasabian" darling that Bugliosi was spinning.

She's a snitch, a liar, and a thief and i'm just sorry that squeaky didn't have a chance to settle things.

Judas Day .....

Salem said...

The girls made up all kinds of crazy shit during the penalty phase, on the stand. Why would they need to make shit up if they had that true-life tidbit to share?


yeah .made up crazy shit...
Only a few at the ranch KNEW what went on that day. Not all were told.
* who knows what goes on behind closed doors* esp in court cases.
I recall reading that when Susan A got back that night and told CM what they had done, he said something like, *You stupid Bitch! You just sent me back to prison!*
I can not disclose a NAME of the person that told me about that day ...hint, he's from TEXAS.

Bruce Hall said...

If Linda Kasabian cut a deal to get immunity from prosecution, why didn't she just come out and tell the truth as to why those people were killed?

Did this immunity agreement come with a clause stating that it would only be given if Bugliosi's Helter Skelter theory was pounded home to the Jury?

And why is it that Little Linda Kasabian went out of her way to save the life of Salindar Nader, a guy she slept with for having given her a ride back to Spahn Ranch once, but didn't think the LabBianca's or the people at the Tate house were worth saving?

Salindar Nader owes his life to Linda Kasabian but all of the others were expendible to her i guess ... and this is the one that gets an immunity deal; the one who was at *both* crime scenes.

You can't say that Linda didn't kill anyone, because "She Knew" people were going to die .... especially by the time that the group arrived at the LaBianca home and her having personally witnessed the slaughter that took place at the Tate home.

I just thought it was putrid that the 2004 movie and the 1976 movie made it look as if Linda kasabian was this poor, innocent little waif that was just caught up in something nasty.

She used Charles Manson and the others when it was convenient for her to hide out from her husbands roommate, whom she had stolen $5000 from, and She used Charles Manson and the others once again when she was faced with the prospect of a Life sentence in prison.

This chick is absolute poison and i get incensed when i hear people making *excuses* for her.

It's personal for me because I know the suffering of those that were involved in those events. We all do things in life that we regret and sometimes you can't make ammends for your actions. You have to live with those consequences.

Linda Kasabian should have been punished, along with the others, and giving her an immunity deal to prop up Bugliosi's fantasy motive is a complete disgrace to the american justice system.

All of the druggies and the links between the accused and the victims were immaterial to Mr Bugliosi .... All he needed were a few dirty hippies to string up and everything else is forgotten about.

I don't like hypocrisy and I don't believe in handing out free passes to criminals that shovel the blame onto someone else to save their own necks. There's no way that Linda Kasabian should have been set free and I'm really sorry that the truth of how those people were all connected together was never exposed to the public eye.

If youre guilty in the press, thats all they care about. You hear about Roman Polanksi going around raping young girls and nobody says boo.

That whole group was involved in drugs and even had connections to organized crime but all you ever hear about is the crazy hippie that used to play guitar and the acid trips of those that surrounded him.

Selective Prosecution is what the justice system is all about now ... whatever makes the best headline news story.

(Spits) Linda Kasabian is a Page 1 loser and I hope she spends the rest of her days looking back on what she did and thinking about where her life went wrong.

GLH said...

Anton, I agree with you that Kasabian was not the person portrayed in the movie, either. I do, however, think that Bug would have used anyone and tried to do the same as long as they would have acted like his minion on the stand. I'm probably wrong about this, but weren't they going to offer Susan the same deal if she testified? I don't buy the HS motive, either. I think there were drugs and money involved.

Denise said...

Maybe the theory wasn't Helter Skelter, but I think they could have believed it. I think their brains were twisted enough (at least some of them). Just like that cult down here in San Diego, the guy had them believing their spirits were gonna hitch a ride on Haley's Comet, so weirder things have been believed.

IMO.

GLH said...

Maybe they did believe it, but I don't think it's the real reason for the killings. Agnostic, what do you think? Huh?

agnostic monk said...

What do I think? I don't buy the Helter Skelter theory myself, but I do think the campfire apocalyptic ravings while on LSD were part of the picture.

I also think Anton should find a more suitable target for his exceptional hatred and scorn. No one here ever said Linda was the innocent waif portrayed in the 2004 movie (although it should be noted that even THAT character broke into people's houses for creepy-crawls and enjoyed it, participated in orgies and drug taking, stole a large sum of cash from her ex-husband's friend, and left her daughter at the ranch when she fled).

But I hardly think she was the devil Anton's making her out to be.

I have never heard anyone, not even Bugliosi, try to paint a picture of her as pure as the driven snow. I don't know where that comes from. That's not the impression I got from his book, nor from his multiple interviews.

Also I think it's of interest to note that Tex Watson, Susan Atkins, and Leslie Van Houten *all* remember Linda completely freaking out on the night of the Tate murders and again in the car on the way to the LaBianca's. Tex wrote about her horrified screams upon seeing Woytek crumble to the ground, and her begging Sadie to "make it stop, I hear people coming".

Leslie Van Houten recalled to Diane Sawyer that during the drive to the Labianca house, Kasabian was freaking out in the car, just all kinds of upset and disoriented, and Charlie was screaming at her to shut up.

These are NOT EXCUSES, however. Linda didn't "shovel the blame" onto anyone. She testified as to what she saw and heard on the night of the murders.

Bruce Hall said...

If Linda was so freaked out by the murders that took place at the tate house, how is it that she went along for the ride the next night when the group eventually ended up at the LaBianca house?

Linda could have split right after Stephen Parent got clipped and ran to another house to call the cops while the others were in the Tate house.

So she gets back to the ranch after the massacre goes down and manages to regroup herself so that she could go out again the next evening?

From what i hear, it sounds to me like Linda is being portrayed as a victim herself. She could have went straight to the cops or even phoned it in the next day when she got back to the ranch.

Am i supposed to feel sorry for Linda? She made her choice and Leno and Rosemary LaBianca were added to the list of the dead. Had she gone straight to the cops, assuming she was so put off by what happened like i keep hearing people say, then the deaths of the LaBianca's are on Linda's hands because she did nothing to stop them.

She saved Salindar Nader's life but i guess she felt that she owed him one for the good sex she got from him.

Linda could have stopped it. She could have ran off at any time while the Tate fiasco went down. She could have ran to a neighboring house and had someone call the police.

That's the reality of what Linda Kasabian was all about.

If she was so freaked out by the Tate murders, there's no way in hell that she's in that car the next night and she should have bolted from that scene like a jackrabbit.

She's just as guilty as the ones that went into the houses with the knives.

I believe the DA refers to that as "Group Responsibility".

I don't like Linda Kasabian and I'm not ashamed to call it as i see it.

GLH said...

Are you forgetting that she had a child at the ranch? I would be afraid to leave or do anything that might endanger my child. Just a thought......

Bruce Hall said...

Linda ran off from the ranch leaving her child with the others.

Had she phoned the police on the night of the Tate murders, the police would have wrapped up everyone at Spahn, including the kids.

Linda bears alot of responsibility because she knew better and she had the power to "Make it Stop" had she chosen to do so.

If she was not so much under the influence of Charles Manson once the murders began, then her culpability should be higher. That's the same crap they keep laying on Leslie when talking about her participation in the LaBianca house.

agnostic monk said...

It all sounds so clean and simple. Linda could have and should have done this. Linda should have done that. I agree with you that she sure didn't do the right thing. Believe me, I'd like to think I would have been over that fence and screaming down the street the second I saw Stephen Parent get shot.

But I wasn't there. I wasn't a stereotypical hippie in 1969 (I was an infant). I didn't leave a broken home at 16 and wander around hippie communes looking for meaning, purpose, magic, and sex. I didn't stumble into a group of people that took me in and treated me like family and offered me a home.

One thing that people of my generation have a hard time wrapping their heads around is the national mood in the late 60's, the counter-culture mindset that dictated a thorough distrust of the authorities and the police. It could simply be that Linda saw the gang at Spahn coming at her from one angle, and the cops coming at her from another, and didn't know WHERE to turn. It's hard to know what was going through her mind on top of witnessing that bloodshed. Did LSD play a part in her reaction? I'm tempted to think that a legitimate case of psychological shock played into her reaction and subsequent actions.

"Linda, why did you go back out with them the second night, knowing what happened the first night?"

"Because Charlie asked me and I was afraid to say no."

Is it possible that things are much simpler than they appear? is it possible that Linda's surprisingly blunt and direct answers on the stand were a characteristic of truthfulness?

agnostic monk said...

I should also add that one of the reasons I find Linda interesting is that she represents some kind of line to me.

This is a horrific story, and the kids who killed behaved monstrously. Putting aside morality and politics, Linda is interesting to me because she was along for all this but did not cross that line. She didn't stab. She didn't hold down.

She could have very easily been Leslie Van Houten. But something in her didn't allow her to actually reach out and stab another human being.

"Over this line, I cannot cross" or something like that is how an online writer expressed it. She is a fascinating study of what could have been, but wasn't, because she didn't have the same murderous germ in her that Sadie, Leslie, Tex, and Katie had.

agnostic monk said...

and I should tell you, Anton, that I don't think you should be afraid to admit that you "don't like Linda Kasabian".

Number one, you're not alone. And number two, The Col has built an environment wherein (I believe) he'd want all perspectives heard and all with a perspective to feel comfortable posting.

Bruce Hall said...

It would have been very interesting to see how Linda would have reacted had she not been "Told to stay outside" by Tex Watson.

I'd be real interested to see what Linda would have done had she been in the living room of the Tate house with Sadie, Katie and Tex.

We'll never know if Linda would have "Crossed the Line" as you had mentioned.

I think that the fact that Linda was not directly exposed to the bloodshed and gore like the others were means that she may have had a clearer head and should have made a conscious decision about what she should have done once the murders took place.

In leslie's case, she was told to go into the LaBianca house and then told by a blood covered Tex to "Do Something".

I wonder how Linda would have reacted had she been in the LaBianca house under Tex's direction.

You can't give this girl a free pass and try and downplay her role.

Charlie handpicked those people to go because he knew that they were capable of being a "Finger on a hand" as Pat once described it.

Linda was picked by Charlie .... and it had nothing to do with Linda being the only one that had a valid drivers license. That's an old wives tale.

Don't let that Farmgirl face and pigtails fool you. She'd stick the knife in your back or mine if the situation called for it.

Bruce Hall said...

I follow the doctrine of Dr. Michael Savage .... you get it straight and unedited.

You have to stand up for yourself and be heard.

The first ammendment of the United States constitution says that i have a right to free speach and I stand by that.

People may or may not like hearing what i have to say, but these opinions are mine and mine alone.

I don't like Linda kasabian and I don't care much for Debra Tate.

I do feel bad for Debra over the loss of her sister. Nobody deserved that. I do think that she crossed the line by interfering with the LaBianca family and believe that her presence distracts from that family's right to face the accused. If she wants to go just for the sake of making faces on camera, then i think she's being disrespectful to the memory of the loss of Leno and Rosemary Labianca.

I have alot of respect for Angela and Louis Smaldino as i see them as good, sincere people that really suffered needlessly. They conduct themselves professionally and intelligently and I can see their grief when they attend these hearings. It's genuine.

Debra Tate has lost all credibility with me though her selling of Sharon's memory. I don't see the LaBianca family doing that. She shouldn't either.

Again, this is just my opinion. You don't have to agree or disagree with me.

agnostic monk said...

Linda was picked by Charlie .... and it had nothing to do with Linda being the only one that had a valid drivers license. That's an old wives tale.

Ok, so why did Charlie pick her? Wait, *CHARLIE* picked her? Did he see something in her that made him think - incorrectly - that she could have physically committed murder?

Did Charlie see what Bugliosi described as "docile, easily led"? - yes I see the irony there.

Don't let that Farmgirl face and pigtails fool you. She'd stick the knife in your back or mine if the situation called for it.

Do you know Linda Kasabian personally? I'd really like to know that. Have you ever met her? I have not. Have you?

There's no evidence that Linda Kasabian ever stuck a knife in anyone's back.

Oh wait, did you mean a figurative knife in my figurative back? I've yet to see evidence of that, either. Bring it.

Bruce Hall said...

I know alot more than i can say, but i believe that my judgements are sound.

Linda was on the ranch a relatively short time but she was very close to Susan and Linda may have been picked by Charlie because of that very fact.

Linda was also a very desperate woman by nature, very clingy when it came to seeking out things in others that gave stability to her own life. She was seeking escape and those at the ranch befriended her. She felt as though she had fit in.

Would she have killed had she been in the Tate house under the guidance of Tex Watson and with her close friend Susan nearby ... I believe the answer to that question would have been Yes.

Don't assume that Linda couldn't do it. If you look at her life, she's been a very desperate woman and drugs have always been at the center of her universe.

The Tate house murders were also believed to be the result of a drug burn that involved Linda and Tex so Linda had a vested interest in going up to Cielo Drive that night.

She looks like the sweet girl next door, but don't be fooled. She's a real life Garbage person at heart.

GLH said...

Anton, you know - you may be right. I've seen the way the convicted killers have acted, and their subsequent parole hearings. All I've ever seen of the real-life Kasabian was a short interview she gave years ago. I've only seen her depicted in movies the way Bug made her to be. However, she didn't join in at the Tate residence when Frykowski came outside. Up to that point, she had seen Parent killed - just as the others had seen. Wouldn't you think she would have been caught up in the frenzy if she were as killer-oriented as you think? I mean, it didn't bother the other killers at the Tate house while they chased the victims, but it did bother Linda.

What/who do you know that the rest of us do not?

Dok said...

Agnostic monk,
Nice to see you back and I think you have said it well.

Bruce Hall said...

I still think my point is a valid one. You don't know what Linda would have done had she actually gone into the Tate or LaBianca homes; the Tate house especially because Susan was with her on that night.

Don't assume that Linda couldn't have killed anyone. She wasn't picked because of her having possesed a valid drivers license.

I still think that Linda was chosen because Susan was going and because the two were close. Charlie knew that and he probably figured that Linda might play as long as Susan was going.

What Linda would have actually done had she been in the Tate living room is open to speculation but people react unpredictably when pandamonium breaks loose. If Linda saw Susan struggling with Voytek, would she have done anything to help Susan? Under the circumstances, she might have because i believe she has it in her to do that.

Linda does what's in Linda's best interest.

agnostic monk said...

Sorry, I'm just not buying it.

You can speculate all you want, but the bottom line is Linda DIDN'T enter the Tate house.

And when the horror was brought outside, everyone present recalls Linda losing her shit. That was NOT made up. Tex Watson has absolutely NO personal motive for confirming that if it weren't true. But he wrote about Linda's reaction very clearly in his book. The same book where he described her as "gentle, frightened". She DID watch Katie struggle with Abigail Folger on the front lawn. She DIDN'T run to Katie's aid, she ran in the exact opposite direction.

You'll never be able to convince me that Linda Kasabian was cut from the same cloth as the actual killers, not with mere speculation and cryptic overtures about "knowing more" than you can say. You have to give us a little more, otherwise we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Tex Watson has motive for lying about lots of things, but backing up Linda's story about being horrified by the murders isn't one of them.

"By that time, though, the true story had been told by Linda Kasabian, the gentle, frightened girl who never actually harmed anyone and begged us to stop what was happening at Cielo Drive..."

"...she repeated the story she'd told at the trial of Charlie and the girls. It was the truth and it was horrible."


- Tex Watson, Will You Die For Me?

By the way, this is fun. :)

Bruce Hall said...

I think the one thing that makes Linda Kasabian more unique that any of the other family members is that she wasn't with the group long enough to have been considered a key member, but yet she managed to be around during 4 main events:

She was with the group at Spahn Ranch from 7/4/1969 - 8/13/1969.

01) She was at the ranch when the Gary Hinman murder went down, although she herself did not particpate in it nor was she at the scene of the crime.

02) She was physically on the scene at the Tate house when those murders took place and witnessed the death of Stephen Parent, Abigail Folger and Voytek Frykowski.

03) She was in the car at the LaBianca residence and she knew that people were about to be murdered just like the night before.

04) She was at the residence of Salindar Nader and prevented his murder, oddly enough, by knocking on the door of the wrong apartment and telling the others(Manson, Grogan and Atkins) that he had moved away.

Linda had already left the Spahn ranch on August 13th and was not around for the police raid that took place on August 16th where the family members were arrested for Grand Theft Auto.

Linda Kasabian was not part of the group when Charlie went back to Death Valley in September of 1969
after the murder of Shorty Shea took place in late August, possibly the 27th.

Anyway, the point i'm trying to make is that for someone who was relatively new, Linda Kasabian became more involved than most of the others who were there much longer.

Linda missed out on the peace and love trips that used to be an important part of Charlie's message. She went head first into Helter Skelter ...... I belive that Linda went to impress both Sadie, who she was close with, and Charlie.

The one thing about Charlie was that Charlie would use fear to try and control people. He would go around telling certain people that he was thinking of asking them to leave the ranch but that if they wanted to stay that they would have to go out and do something to earn their keep. It was his way of mentally feeling out those people that he felt he could have some kind of control over.

For those who felt that life with family was important because it gave them some kind of social acceptibility, the mere thought of being asked to leave made them feel as if they had to prove themselves to Manson in order to stay. I know this to be factual.

I belive this was the case with Linda Kasabian as well as she had technically been on the run from her ex-husbands roommate after she had stolen the $5000 from him. She sought sanctuary with the family and she developed a friendship with Susan.

Keep in mind that Linda stayed with the group knowing full well that murders were going to happen whereas Paul Watkins had bailed out before the murders were committed because he wanted no part of it. Grant you that he did join up once again with the family when they left for Death Valley, but he, like Brooks Poston, made a break from Charlie's influence with the help of a miner friend named Paul Crockett.

agnostic monk said...

If you're saying that you feel more for, trust more, the words of Pretty Litty Hippie Boy over Linda Kasabian, I'm not sure I can stomach it.

Don't get me wrong I think Pretty Little Hippie Boy had some talent and some charisma. I REALLY ENJOY PAUL WATKINS SONGS

Salem said...

. In other words what was going on at that time put the Polanski residence at risk because of the anonymity of it all. I believe there were orgies at the Polanski home and plenty of other celebrities homes.

RIGHT ON AUDIO....
what was going on at the ranch was going on everywhere then.
Even Roman got home and who did he start to investgate surrounding the murders?? His own friends..

Salem said...

Sandra Good did say in the Manson documentary that they got in the car and "Linda drove them to the Tate house, because she had been there before." Or something to that effect.

Blue was in jail that night if I recall. She and mary B.

Bruce Hall said...

I do give more credibility to Paul Watkins than i do Linda Kasabian.

Paul was with the group much longer and was never turned on to the violence that Manson was talking about. Paul, by his own admission, was a flower child and was more into the love and communal aspect of what the family was all about. Life with the family was about living for now and being free; both in their beliefs and in their sexuality. Everbody shared everything. They were all one.

The Beatles White Album, when it first came out in December of 1968, was the instrument that moved Charlie and the others away from their philosophy on how life should be lived. Mansons own paranoia eventually consumed him.

Once Charlie made the connection between the Beatles White Album and the Bible (Revalations 9&10), there was no turning back.

Keep in mind that Linda Kasabian wasn't with the group when they would trip out in Death Valley in December of 1968 and when they were on the road prior to this when they traveled in the family bus. Paul Watkins was.

Linda Kasabian, i personally don't even think of as a family member as she wasn't part of what they were all about. Linda came in very late, was involved in a drug burn, was an accessory to multiple murders and never established an identity amongst the other members of the group. Sure, she felt close to Susan, but i don't believe that she was accepted by Sandy and Squeaky nor Gypsy on a personal level.

It puzzles me why Charlie would take such a big chance on an unknown like Linda, but perhaps the $5000 she gave Charlie that she stole from her ex-husbands roommate had alot to do with it plus the fact that she was accepted by Susan. It's hard to say. Tex Watson also slept with her and talked her into stealing the $5000 from her ex-husbands roommate, so maybe that too might have convinced Charlie she was a player.

Linda wasn't part of what the family was originally about. They lived as one, loved as one, and believed in living life in the now.
They would listen to the Moody Blues and would trip out together and really seemed content to life as they wanted to as they traveled together on the road. Linda wasn't part of that.

I give Paul Watkins much more credibility than i do Linda Kasabian because linda didn't really know and understand what life with Charlie and the family was all about. They welcomed her into the group, but i don't believe that Linda ever really assimilated and became one with them.

agnostic monk said...

ugh, I had this whole thing written and then somehow it was deleted before I posted it.

Re: Your descriptions of Paul Watkins and Linda Kasabian.

As you said, Linda wasn't around during the early days of the family. But she WAS doing the hippie thing for a couple years prior to joining up. She was just as much a "true flower child" as Paul Watkins. If anything, she had MORE of the true flower child experience than Paul Watkins, given she did a lot more of the wandering vagabond thing, whereas Paul was more rooted.

It's really important to remember that what was going on at Spahn prior to the murders was not uncommon in late 1960's America, especially California. Hippie communities had sprouted up all over the place, many of the Manson Family people wandered in and out of different scenes where a lot of the same philosophies of free love, anti-establishment were bandied about. The Spahn Ranch gang were not all that unusual in this context.

Linda didn't experience the early days of Spahn like Paul did, but she experienced the larger hippie scene just as much if not more.

Besides, does it really matter? Linda and Paul didn't contradict each other on the stand. Paul talked primarily of life on the ranch and the ensuing Helter Skelter stuff, Linda talked primarily of the murders. And where they're testimony covered common ground, they backed each other up more than anything.

Paul Watkins was probably a good guy at heart, I do believe that. And he did go on to make something of himself in Death Valley. But some of his post Tate-Labianca activity in relation to the case was a little iffy, IMHO. He went back to the family while Charlie was in jail for the murders, he capitalized on the case with his own book (something Linda never did), supposedly "lectured" about "cults", scored Hendrickson and Merrick's documentary (with music I do enjoy) with that little aspiring pop singer sparkle in his eye.

All fine and good, and I mean no disrespect to the little pied-piper who died a tragic death, but I'm not sure where it gets us to hold him up as some kind of pillar of credibility while at the same time viciously attacking Linda's credibility.

One more thing I'll say about Linda and your statements about her not being fully accepted by some of the girls; Yes, and? Is there a point there? I'm sure she wasn't fully trusted yet being fairly new and all (and those girls sure could get jealous of each other), and her lesser level of devotion to the group is made obvious by her behavior after the murders.

I'd personally consider it a badge of honor to be considered a "snitch" and a "judas" by someone like Sandra Good. You're gonna crucify Linda Kasabian for "selling out her friends"? These "friends" were a bunch of goddamned murderers and thugs.

JRCD2 said...

I've been following this discussion from day one and have found it to be fascinating. I have nothing of any substance to add to it at this time although I do share most of Anton's opinions about Kasabian. I have always believed that the motive for the Tate murders was drugs and money and that Voyteck was seriously involved in a transaction gone bad.
I do want to thank our Col for providing us a place to read, learn and debate in an intelligent manner without having to resort to insults, name calling and flaming.
Carry on Anton and Monk! I salute you both for your knowledge and civility.