Thursday, September 01, 2005

Lies and Balderdash

Okay- AGNOSTIC MONK, a very smart person, asks--- "Ok, what were Barbara Hoyt's lies, exactly?

What were Linda Kasabians's lies, exactly?

What were Catherine Share's lies (during the penalty phase), exactly?"

This was in response to me stating that EVERY member of the Family lied on the stand at some point.

Since I only need to discuss ONE lie to prove my assertion, I will have at it.

In the main trial, Hoyt testified that the Family had meals at the back house and that at dinner time Charlie often spoke about "Helter Skelters". Of course, we know that while the concept of Helter Skelter was bandied about the Ranch, Charlie never had anything resembling regular meetings about it; this was just Hoyt following the Bug's instructions to bring up Helter Skelter in her testimony. In the Shorty Shea trial, in order to establish that she could have heard Shorty's screams, she claims they came from a tree area near where she was sleeping. Both Davis and Clem, who have now admitted the killing and have nothing to gain by lying, completely contradict her story.

I don't even have to begin to list Share's lies. Let's just take an easy one- she stated that Bobby Beausoleil did not kill Gary Hinman. Bobby fully admits that he did. She also accuses Leslie of being at Hinman and knows she wasn't. Share admitted her lies to Bug on some sick, fluffy talk show a few years back.

Linda,Linda Linda. You know her- the one who, at least according to FIVE TO DIE, when arrested swore that she'd never be a snitch. The one who drove to TWO nights of murder and did nothing, nothing to report them until she was caught. How many lies do you need from the girl that was only at the Ranch a couple of weeks? Do you believe she was told to HIDE the LaBianca wallet in a toilet? Uh huh. Do you believe she really went to the wrong apartment in Venice? Uh huh. How about an easy one? "Why did you leave your baby with these killers Linda while you left?" " I just knew, somehow, she would be all right."

Uh huh.


agnostic monk said...

I love the picture, that actually looks like it could be my chin. My dimple isn't that cute though.

Now Col, I wasn't being a sarcastic smartass when I asked you to name those lies. I really wanted to hear your take. I learn from you. And I knew Gypsy was a big fat liar already by her own admission. I'm less studied on Chubby Christian's story.

But I notice something about your list. Those really aren't LIES listed under Linda, Linda, Linda. Those are just examples of conjecture used to cast shadow on her credibility, in the spirit of severe cynicism (something I can't fault you for as I suffer from it most of the time myself). But they aren't lies that have been refuted by evidence. The defense team tried that time and again during the trial. These were fairly experienced criminal defense attorneys. Certainly punching holes in the testimony of a low-life, uneducated hippie girl would be a cake walk to these hot-shots, right? Except they never could.

Linda witnessed Woytek get his skull savagely beaten in with the buntline special, up close and personal. She witnessed Abigail being tackled and bludgeoned with Krenwinkle's knife just a few yards away. This is the stuff of war veterans. I've known people to get royally fucked-up in the head from far less. It's quite possible that Linda went into some kind of state of shock, some kind of lingering post-traumatic stress. Who knows how that experience affected her heart and mind and actions from that point on. And this was after already getting a dose of Charlie-fever and Spahn Ranch mind fucks. Considering that she ultimately DID voluntarily turn herself in to the police in New Hampshire and allowed them to fly her back to Los Angeles (while actual killers Watson and Krenwinkle were fighting extradition tooth and nail, mind you), and considering that she never actually entered any of the houses or physically took part in any of the murders, AND considering she faced down Manson and the psycho-chicks in the courtroom (not to mention the death-threatening family outside), I'm willing to give her a slight benefit of the doubt. I'm not pinning a Citizen of The Year award on her, but I'm allowing for some compassion and the possibility of some distinctions in her character.

But you're not. You think she's a skank, and you're willing to take Jerry Leblanc and Ivor Davis at their word (that she said something about refusing to snitch) over her attorney Fleishman's claim that she wanted to tell her story even without immunity. And that's fine. We certainly don't have to agree. Neither one of us know her personally and really know what went on in her heart and mind. I enjoy the discussion nonetheless.

One last thing; even Tex Watson says that Linda told the truth, and that she really was, as far as he could tell, a gentle naive flower-child who was absolutely horrified watching him pound in Woytek's skull. He even specifically remembers "Sadie, make it stop! People are coming!" Not that Tex Watson is to be trusted on much, but it's there nonetheless.

ColScott said...

We do agree that she is the least worse of the worst.

And I don't take that book at its word. At all.

And voluntarily turning yourself in AFTER they have sworn a warrant for you is --- a joke. Sorry.

And her future life as a drug dealer or what have you eliminates whatever distinctions you might award IMO.

Look- if she had JUST told the truth it would have been fine, IMO. I am glad she put away Tex and the gang. I have a problem with LIES so that you can get a free pass and send Charlie away.

And where are you getting the Gary "she would have done it anyway" from? Bug's book- a book where those he needs (Kasabian) get love and those he wants to nail (CM0 get bile and even his more talented rivals (Stovitz) get shit upon. I don't believe that was true because SHE WOULD HAVE COME FORWARD BEFORE SHE WAS BUSTED.

agnostic monk said...

Sorry, but I see a MAJOR distinction between drug dealer and vicious, cold-blooded murderer. Hell, I knew folks who dealt weed in college. I sure don't think they deserve to be treated like murderers. Yes, I know she was busted for meth which is a far cry from weed, but it's still not the same thing as murder. Nuances, dude.

You said "I have a problem with LIES so that you can get a free pass and send Charlie away" but you still haven't listed those lies specifically. You made reference to some sarcastic conjecture about about her story re: thwarting the murder of the actor at his apartment house and about the wallet, but no mention of any SPECIFIC lies that you can contradict with SPECIFIC evidence.

And about not turning herself in before the warrant, that's partly what I was alluding to with regards to her post-murder behavior and the possibilities of what witnessing the murders did to her state of mind (on top of Charlie-fever, Spahn mind fucks, lots of LSD and an already established distrust of the police which was extremely common amongst the hippie kids of the day).

ColScott said...

Hey that's why adults can agree to disagree.
Bug needed her, she got the walk and said what she was supposed to.
I'd probably do the same.
I just gag at all the efforts to make her seem the lost innocent.
She was and is anything but.

agnostic monk said...

With all due respect, Col, that doesn't cut it. You called her a liar, a very specific and fairly severe accusation, yet you have not been able to provide specific examples of her lies beyond vague conjecture. Meanwhile, wherever the physical evidence in the case can be lined up with her testimony, they compliment each other perfectly.

With respect to the "lost innocent" tag, even Bugliosi himself made it clear that she was no angel, far from it. Even that silly Helter Skelter tv remake from last year was quick to impress upon the audience that she stole money from her friend and greatly enjoyed the creepy-crawls, the sex, and the drugs (oh my!).

I've no love for Bugliosi and I'm quite skeptical of the Helter Skelter theory as a primary motive, but he got a few things correct. One of those things is the distinction between heartless, bloodthirsty robots and a human being.

And with that, I'm off to gaze at my stalker wall of pictures of little Linda. j/k :)

ColScott said...

Note to self--- Finish argument with Monk later after the dry humping ceases.