...Truth has not special time of its own. Its hour is now — always and indeed then most truly when it seems unsuitable to actual circumstances. (Albert Schweitzer).....the truth about these murders has not been uncovered, but we believe the time for the truth is now. Join us, won't you?
Tuesday, August 01, 2006
Tex Ministry Expose 3
This is a different Jerry show with Nellie. I love that Ed Sanders spent half his book trying to prove sex parties and tapes, failed, but still talks like it happened.
Also - I wonder if the Joel Rostau drug courier to tate and stock swindler and dead guy in a trunk is the same guy that Watkins said questioned him in a luxury hotel for a couple days?
Salem said... >>>Sanders says that not only a drug burn but mentions a rape??? was that Linda K's rape?<<<
He was talking about a drug dealer getting tied up, humiliated, and sodomized wasnt he? Sounds more like something done to a man than a woman.
Jesus if that really did happen, in the middle of some kind of "party", it's really disturbing. What kind of people were these folks? Was Voytek a monster? And where was Abigail during all this? Jay?
Are we to believe that while a man was being sodomized they all stood around laughing and toasting each other? Who was there?
And if it was Linda (which I do not believe at all but just for the sake of discussion), are we to believe they stood around laughing while a 5 foot tall little blonde girl with a freckle face was being sodomized and raped?
Salem said... >>>roamin roman was known for his weirdness and hijinks.<<<
Weirdness and hijinks are one thing. *I* am weird and I *love* hijinks. But tieing someone up against their will and raping/sodomizing/humiliating them crosses the line between weird and monstrous.
Of course, I'm getting my panties in a bunch about something that may very well have never happened since it's all just rumour and gossip (including the "hippie trash" altercation with Voy, Tex, Linda).
I can't remember where I read it but Sgt. Mike McCann said that they (the LAPD) knew about the incident and had investigated it but that it did not occur at the Polanski house but rather at Mama Cass Elliott's house as Cass was friends/a customer(?) of Pic Dawson's as well.
Col. do you have access to the earlier tape where Jerry and Nellie go to the Labianca home?
Deb said... >>>I can't remember where I read it but Sgt. Mike McCann said that they (the LAPD) knew about the incident and had investigated it but that it did not occur at the Polanski house but rather at Mama Cass Elliott's house as Cass was friends/a customer(?) of Pic Dawson's as well.<<<
Deb do you happen to remember how many days prior to the murders the incident was supposed to have taken place?
So Pic Dawson or possibly Linda Kasabian (not true) is getting raped and sodomized in front of a crowd of people for a drug burn and Mama Cass is sippin marguaritas while watching?
Savage RDDB-DA said... >>>I told you flunkies that there was more to Linda Kasabian than meets the eye.<<<
Hi Savage, good to see you back (and I mean that sincerely).
No offense but just because you told us that doesn't make the rape rumor true.
Your analysis of Linda's behavior are your interpretations but they don't prove anything, no matter which members of the so-called Family you are communicating with.
But we don't have to go there again because we've been there a million times.
meatpile said... >>>Damn this is how rumors get started....
Voytek and Abby are rumored to have picked young men up on the strip and drug them and flog them.<<<
But, but, but.... that's just a rumor too, no?
But going with the possibility that it is true; I wouldn't want to ever suggest that someone deserved to be butchered, but that's a pretty fucked up hobby. And Gibby was supposed to have been one of Sharon's good friends?
I think it is in Greg King's book that they say the sodomizing of the drug dealer was done at Cass Elliot's house, not Cielo (they filmed it too, right?). Also, it was John Phillips who suggested to the police that PIG on the door may have meant Pic. I wonder if he thought one of the victims wrote it before they died or if Pic was boasting?
Also, it has been claimed that a telephone call was made from Cielo to Spahn Ranch sometime during the morning before the murders. It has also been claimed that this is documented in a police report, yet no one has ever been able to produce such report. Urban legend, perhaps?
meatpile said... >>>Hey savage - What's the significance of Linda sparing Salindar Nader?<<<
Savage seems to think that because Linda refused to kill Salindar Nader, that supports his theory that Linda was raped by Voytek. Salindar did not rape her, therefore she did not want to see him dead.
Or something like that. It's some interesting "logic".
Pristash said... >>>Also, it has been claimed that a telephone call was made from Cielo to Spahn Ranch sometime during the morning before the murders.<<<
Pristash I thought the rumor was the other way around, that the call came from Spahn to Cielo?
Savage RDDB-DA said... >>If you look very carefully....<<<
Well, as I've stated before when this has come up, it's an interesting theory/rumor but that's all it is.
If it were true, I wonder why Susan never mentioned it in all her blabbing (that got them all busted) to Virginia and Ronnie at Sybil Brand. She was very specific about them not knowing the people in the house in any way. Ditto for her grand jury testimony.
And again I will reiterate my belief that there is no way this shit is NOT coming up during the trial, whether it be by the defendants or the girls on the corner with microphones attached to their faces. Linda's on the stand basically securing their fate and they all keep this significant fact under wraps? Especially during the penalty phase when they were ridiculously grapsing at desperate slandering straws blaming Linda for everything? Go back and read the transcripts from the penalty phase of all the Family members testimony. They're gonna make all this laughable contradictory shit up about Linda masterminding the murders yet they leave out this very pivotal "true" detail?
It's taking No Sense Makes Sense a little too far.
Deb do you happen to remember how many days prior to the murders the incident was supposed to have taken place?
Hey Monk, I think it was like a week or 2 before the murders at the most and I think I read it in not only Greg King's book but in that book by Adam Gorightly Over Santa Susana Pass (Mr. Gorightly sorry about butchering the name of your book but I can never remember the title :))
Savage RDDB-DA said... >>>There's a manson family member who knows about what happened to Linda because she heard about it while up in Death Valley. She was arrested near Myers Ranch and it was Bruce Davis who told her.<<<
And every little rumor that was passed around among fringe Family members is true?
Synesthesiac said... >>>So the fact that it doesn't come up in court means nothing to me...lot's of stuff I'm sure didn't come up in court.<<<
Ok but stuff like the black book, mafia connections, phone calls to Spahn; none of those things are directly related to the prosecution's star witness. Those details would be easy to keep out of the trial. But the star witness is sitting up there implicating them in murder and none of them are gonna talk about the "fact" that they essentially committed the Tate murders as an act of revenge for HER rape?
Why would they sit on that? especially when they were freely admitting to the killings plus going out of their way to implicate her during the penalty phase?
The fact that it didn't come up in court (or on the corner) definitely means something to me.
savage here's the thing okay. your lameass "theory" explains every problem that exists it really does EXCEPT ready? are you sitting down? THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THIS WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN MENTIONED BY SADIE OR KATIE DURING THE TRIALS. Better still, at a parole hearing. Why is it never mentioned? BECAUSE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.
Savage RDDB-DA said... >>>It never came out at the trials because there was no official police report that proved that the incident actually took place.... the drug connection was basically kept out of the indictments because it would have tied many hollywood people to both Frykowski and to Jay Sebring.<<<
That doesn't explain why Susan, Patricia, and Leslie didn't bring it up. Savage do you know anything about the penalty phase of the TLB trial? Do you recall any of the ridiculous shit that the female defendants and the Family such as Brenda, Gypsy and Clem were saying on the stand about Linda? It was laughable and contradictory. Linda gave us all LSD in the car, Linda gave all the instructions. Linda was present at the Hinman murder, not Leslie. They went out of their way to slander her simply because her testimony was so damaging to them and as retribution for turning on the Family. They were so desperate to confuse the jury and hurt Linda that they couldn't even get their made up stories straight, but in all of this, NO MENTION OF RAPE. NO MENTION OF COMMITTING MURDERS AS AN ACT OF REVENGE FOR THEIR FORMER FRIEND LINDA'S RAPE.
What, were they just being sensitive to her feelings or something? "Let's perjure and crucify Linda and cast doubt on her testimony but hey let's not mention the rape because it might upset her."
Savage RDDB-DA said... >>>Answer me this ..... after all these years why hasn't anyone approached Linda Kasabian to interview her or to talk her into writing a book about her experiences with the family?<<<
Actually it's very simple. Linda does not want to be tracked down, to be interviewed or to write a book. The fine writer Joan Didion (a friend of Linda's attorney Gary Fleishman who spent a lot of time with Linda at Sybil Brand as the trial was gearing up, and wrote about these conversations in her book The White Album) tried to work with Linda on a book about her days with the Family, but the project fell apart.
Linda does not want nor has she ever sought out media attention. Aside from the Current Affair interview on the 20th anniversary of the murders, she has avoided the press and the limelight. She was not interested in cashing in on these gruesome crimes for her own financial gain or for publicity. She could have if she wanted to. Charlie even suggested in his testimony that she'll go off and become rich and famous. But she wanted to live her life in peace and quiet with her husband and children on the farm. Troubled as that life seems to have been, "media-whore" was NEVER her ambition.
And she certainly does not owe any of us any explanations for anything just because we might toss around conspiracy theories.
25 comments:
"...because we do know, that before the police got to Leno's business, that safe had been opened and all of its contents had been removed."
How do we know this?
Salem - That was Pic Dawson, I believe.
skyhook - great question.
Also - I wonder if the Joel Rostau drug courier to tate and stock swindler and dead guy in a trunk is the same guy that Watkins said questioned him in a luxury hotel for a couple days?
Nellie seems like a interesting dude.
Salem said...
>>>Sanders says that not only a drug burn but mentions a rape???
was that Linda K's rape?<<<
He was talking about a drug dealer getting tied up, humiliated, and sodomized wasnt he? Sounds more like something done to a man than a woman.
Jesus if that really did happen, in the middle of some kind of "party", it's really disturbing. What kind of people were these folks? Was Voytek a monster? And where was Abigail during all this? Jay?
Are we to believe that while a man was being sodomized they all stood around laughing and toasting each other? Who was there?
And if it was Linda (which I do not believe at all but just for the sake of discussion), are we to believe they stood around laughing while a 5 foot tall little blonde girl with a freckle face was being sodomized and raped?
Salem said...
>>>roamin roman was known for his weirdness and hijinks.<<<
Weirdness and hijinks are one thing. *I* am weird and I *love* hijinks. But tieing someone up against their will and raping/sodomizing/humiliating them crosses the line between weird and monstrous.
Of course, I'm getting my panties in a bunch about something that may very well have never happened since it's all just rumour and gossip (including the "hippie trash" altercation with Voy, Tex, Linda).
I can't remember where I read it but Sgt. Mike McCann said that they (the LAPD) knew about the incident and had investigated it but that it did not occur at the Polanski house but rather at Mama Cass Elliott's house as Cass was friends/a customer(?) of Pic Dawson's as well.
Col. do you have access to the earlier tape where Jerry and Nellie go to the Labianca home?
Deb said...
>>>I can't remember where I read it but Sgt. Mike McCann said that they (the LAPD) knew about the incident and had investigated it but that it did not occur at the Polanski house but rather at Mama Cass Elliott's house as Cass was friends/a customer(?) of Pic Dawson's as well.<<<
Deb do you happen to remember how many days prior to the murders the incident was supposed to have taken place?
So Pic Dawson or possibly Linda Kasabian (not true) is getting raped and sodomized in front of a crowd of people for a drug burn and Mama Cass is sippin marguaritas while watching?
Can anybody answer Shyhook question reguarding Leno's black book and safe robbery? *jen*
Damn this is how rumors get started....
Linda Kasabian was not sodomized.
Either Pic Dawson or Billy Doyle was. Memory is failing me.
The event was so fucked up that they thought the 'PIG' on the front door said 'Pic'. It was very shortly before the killings.
Voytek and Abby are rumored to have picked young men up on the strip and drug them and flog them.
Other items of interest involving the drugs and the folks at Cielo are here:
http://www.totse.com/en/law/high_profile_legal_cases/thefamilysmurd191165.html
Savage RDDB-DA said...
>>>I told you flunkies that there was more to Linda Kasabian than meets the eye.<<<
Hi Savage, good to see you back (and I mean that sincerely).
No offense but just because you told us that doesn't make the rape rumor true.
Your analysis of Linda's behavior are your interpretations but they don't prove anything, no matter which members of the so-called Family you are communicating with.
But we don't have to go there again because we've been there a million times.
meatpile said...
>>>Damn this is how rumors get started....
Voytek and Abby are rumored to have picked young men up on the strip and drug them and flog them.<<<
But, but, but.... that's just a rumor too, no?
But going with the possibility that it is true; I wouldn't want to ever suggest that someone deserved to be butchered, but that's a pretty fucked up hobby. And Gibby was supposed to have been one of Sharon's good friends?
Did anybody read that link I posted? I hadn't before - it's got some good stuff in it.
Hey savage - What's the significance of Linda sparing Salindar Nader?
I think it is in Greg King's book that they say the sodomizing of the drug dealer was done at Cass Elliot's house, not Cielo (they filmed it too, right?). Also, it was John Phillips who suggested to the police that PIG on the door may have meant Pic. I wonder if he thought one of the victims wrote it before they died or if Pic was boasting?
Skyhook's question must be investigated....
Also, it has been claimed that a telephone call was made from Cielo to Spahn Ranch sometime during the morning before the murders. It has also been claimed that this is documented in a police report, yet no one has ever been able to produce such report. Urban legend, perhaps?
meatpile said...
>>>Hey savage - What's the significance of Linda sparing Salindar Nader?<<<
Savage seems to think that because Linda refused to kill Salindar Nader, that supports his theory that Linda was raped by Voytek. Salindar did not rape her, therefore she did not want to see him dead.
Or something like that. It's some interesting "logic".
Pristash said...
>>>Also, it has been claimed that a telephone call was made from Cielo to Spahn Ranch sometime during the morning before the murders.<<<
Pristash I thought the rumor was the other way around, that the call came from Spahn to Cielo?
Savage RDDB-DA said...
>>If you look very carefully....<<<
Well, as I've stated before when this has come up, it's an interesting theory/rumor but that's all it is.
If it were true, I wonder why Susan never mentioned it in all her blabbing (that got them all busted) to Virginia and Ronnie at Sybil Brand. She was very specific about them not knowing the people in the house in any way. Ditto for her grand jury testimony.
And again I will reiterate my belief that there is no way this shit is NOT coming up during the trial, whether it be by the defendants or the girls on the corner with microphones attached to their faces. Linda's on the stand basically securing their fate and they all keep this significant fact under wraps? Especially during the penalty phase when they were ridiculously grapsing at desperate slandering straws blaming Linda for everything? Go back and read the transcripts from the penalty phase of all the Family members testimony. They're gonna make all this laughable contradictory shit up about Linda masterminding the murders yet they leave out this very pivotal "true" detail?
It's taking No Sense Makes Sense a little too far.
savage that is a good bedtime story
none of it is true though
Deb do you happen to remember how many days prior to the murders the incident was supposed to have taken place?
Hey Monk, I think it was like a week or 2 before the murders at the most and I think I read it in not only Greg King's book but in that book by Adam Gorightly Over Santa Susana Pass (Mr. Gorightly sorry about butchering the name of your book but I can never remember the title :))
Deb
Savage RDDB-DA said...
>>>There's a manson family member who knows about what happened to Linda because she heard about it while up in Death Valley. She was arrested near Myers Ranch and it was Bruce Davis who told her.<<<
And every little rumor that was passed around among fringe Family members is true?
Synesthesiac said...
>>>So the fact that it doesn't come up in court means nothing to me...lot's of stuff I'm sure didn't come up in court.<<<
Ok but stuff like the black book, mafia connections, phone calls to Spahn; none of those things are directly related to the prosecution's star witness. Those details would be easy to keep out of the trial. But the star witness is sitting up there implicating them in murder and none of them are gonna talk about the "fact" that they essentially committed the Tate murders as an act of revenge for HER rape?
Why would they sit on that? especially when they were freely admitting to the killings plus going out of their way to implicate her during the penalty phase?
The fact that it didn't come up in court (or on the corner) definitely means something to me.
Just my take.
savage
here's the thing okay.
your lameass "theory" explains every problem that exists
it really does
EXCEPT
ready?
are you sitting down?
THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THIS WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN MENTIONED BY SADIE OR KATIE DURING THE TRIALS.
Better still, at a parole hearing.
Why is it never mentioned?
BECAUSE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.
But nothing was cleaned up. What happened?
=^..^=
Savage RDDB-DA said...
>>>It never came out at the trials because there was no official police report that proved that the incident actually took place.... the drug connection was basically kept out of the indictments because it would have tied many hollywood people to both Frykowski and to Jay Sebring.<<<
That doesn't explain why Susan, Patricia, and Leslie didn't bring it up. Savage do you know anything about the penalty phase of the TLB trial? Do you recall any of the ridiculous shit that the female defendants and the Family such as Brenda, Gypsy and Clem were saying on the stand about Linda? It was laughable and contradictory. Linda gave us all LSD in the car, Linda gave all the instructions. Linda was present at the Hinman murder, not Leslie. They went out of their way to slander her simply because her testimony was so damaging to them and as retribution for turning on the Family. They were so desperate to confuse the jury and hurt Linda that they couldn't even get their made up stories straight, but in all of this, NO MENTION OF RAPE. NO MENTION OF COMMITTING MURDERS AS AN ACT OF REVENGE FOR THEIR FORMER FRIEND LINDA'S RAPE.
What, were they just being sensitive to her feelings or something? "Let's perjure and crucify Linda and cast doubt on her testimony but hey let's not mention the rape because it might upset her."
It's laughable.
Savage RDDB-DA said...
>>>Answer me this ..... after all these years why hasn't anyone approached Linda Kasabian to interview her or to talk her into writing a book about her experiences with the family?<<<
Actually it's very simple. Linda does not want to be tracked down, to be interviewed or to write a book. The fine writer Joan Didion (a friend of Linda's attorney Gary Fleishman who spent a lot of time with Linda at Sybil Brand as the trial was gearing up, and wrote about these conversations in her book The White Album) tried to work with Linda on a book about her days with the Family, but the project fell apart.
Linda does not want nor has she ever sought out media attention. Aside from the Current Affair interview on the 20th anniversary of the murders, she has avoided the press and the limelight. She was not interested in cashing in on these gruesome crimes for her own financial gain or for publicity. She could have if she wanted to. Charlie even suggested in his testimony that she'll go off and become rich and famous. But she wanted to live her life in peace and quiet with her husband and children on the farm. Troubled as that life seems to have been, "media-whore" was NEVER her ambition.
And she certainly does not owe any of us any explanations for anything just because we might toss around conspiracy theories.
>>>Linda was present at the Hinman murder, not Leslie.<<<
oops I meant not Mary, but Leslie and Linda were present at the Hinman murder.
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