Tuesday, August 15, 2006

Is it Harold True, True or False?


In the endless search for answers that don't exist in the TLB case, many things become the conventional wisdom.

Sebring threw a party where they whipped a drug dealer that burned them.
Parent met Garretson casually only the day before.
Sandra Good was married to Joel Pugh.
The Family made films of their adventures.

You can probably name dozens of them. Things that might or might not be true but are accepted as true by us scholars without any actual evidence. (And no, the Bug mentioning it in a book is not evidence).

The one I'm here to ruminate about is the idea that 3301 Waverly was chosen for the second night of slaughter because Charlie had been shunned at a party NEXT DOOR.

Again, pause for me. Think about what I just wrote. Think about all you have learned together.

Now read that again. The conventional wisdom is that the LaBianca estate was chosen because Harold True had offended Charlie while True lived next door.

DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE TO ANYONE?

Didn't think so.

True (pictured) was friends with Phil Kaufman a former cellmate of Charlie's. I think they both, umm, partaked of some of the girls. But the evidence is unclear as to whether True still lived next door in August 1969. He may have only rented for a few months. So if Charlie was "sending a message" it wasn't very effective. Indeed, it made as much sense as Sadie trying to make Tate look like Black Panthers. Nobody got it.

No, the Col questions the conventional wisdom.

Tate was targeted, likely because of Frykowski's actions. (not a rape though)

LaBianca was targeted. Maybe mob related, I don't know.

Then the killings stopped. Helter Skelter had not started. But they stopped. (Some motive, Vince).

Strike one for the Conventional Wisdom.

35 comments:

closed blog said...
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deadwoodhbo said...

Thank you Col has right has always.

Pristash said...

I'm back from vacation...boy a whole lot happened while I was in DC with the fam....and nobody not once even accused me of being Savage or even the Col! Damn, I must not post enough....

Anyway, the whole notion that Terry Melcher's old house and Harold True's house were the only places in LA that Charlie was told 'no' is just alot of BS. It probably was personal with Voytek but it was strictly business at LaBianca, if you know what I mean....

uncle ace said...
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ColScott said...

cats
1- au contraire, I agree - I believe Steven and William had been lovers on and off for weeks. This was no random assignation IMO.
2- Kaufman still administers the copyright on Charlie's songs. Creepy.

Salem said...

demon knight said: The LaBianca murder almost appears to be some kind of an organized crime event that specifically involved Leno's Black Book. There had to be something in there that was very concerning to someone.

I agree.I think it was a MOB job.
jmho

60skid said...
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ColScott said...

When did Kaufman obtain the copyrights? WHEN THE LIE ALBUM WAS RELEASED- AND HE DOESN'T OWN THE COPYRIGHTS HE ADMINISTERS THE ROYALTIES- SUBTLE DIFFERENCE BUT STILL A DIFFERENCE


Did Kaufman know Melcher or Wilson? NO IT DOES NOT SEEM SO Does Kaufman still get royalties? YES HE STILL DOES. NOT MUCH BUT YES. Where is Kaufman now and how old is he? TRY PHKAUF@AOL.COM

ColScott said...

The only thing I can figure, and I am not an attorney by any means.
NOR AM I ANYMORE
.is that maybe there was some survivorship rules in place..thus during the homicide it was deemed that Leno died first, thus maybe his will stated that everything went to Rosemary. Then since Rosemary died, maybe her will stated everything went to her children.
THAT COULD BE TRUE BUT I THINK THE WILL SPELLED OUT THAT IT WENT TO THE KIDS
But then with Suzan having a large interest in the division of the estate, why was she named the Executor/Executrix of the estate especially when she was found not stable enough to testify at the trial? BUT THIS IS NOT TRUE- BUG CHOSE NOT TO CALL HER- HE COULDN'T TRUST WHAT SHE WOULD SAY BUT THERE IS NO INDICATION THAT SHE WAS FOUND NOT STABLE BY A DOCTOR OR ANYTHING

That is the only thing I can figure out, because didn't Leno's kids get nothing but Rosemary's got it all?THAT IS WHAT THE WILL SAID Maybe I am just confused...

ColScott said...

And, how did Garretson end up in the guest house as carretaker?
GAY ALTOBELLI FANCIED YOUNG GARRETSON WHO LIKELY BLEW HIM FOR RENT

I take it, this was after Dean's stint, and how did Dean get to be caretaker for a bit? I DON'T BELIEVE HE ACTUALLY WAS- MORE RUMORS
I thin Parent was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, AGREED
that he and Garretson "knew" each other longer than admitted. AS I SAID
But where the hell was Garretson when everything was coming down? HIDING OUT AT THE SIDE OF THE GUEST HOUSE IS MY GUESS

ColScott said...

If that is what they were after, where did the cops get this black book?GOOD QUESTION

Obviously, those at the LaBianca's house, knew they had time, time for a snack and a shower, etc. How did they know this- perhaps Suzan?
WELL THEY KNEW SOMEHOW THAT THERE WAS NO NEED TO HURRY- DID SUZAN AND JOE ACTUALLY MEET THEM WHILE THEY VISITED TRUE?


Why did the cops not know about Rosemary, and her body come as a shock to them? THAT COULD BE JUST BECAUSE

Why didn't Suzan or Frank ask about their Mother? AS IN THEY THOUGHT SHE WAS ELSEWHERE?

Why did she have a dress on over her nightgown-the modesty thing just doesn't fly with me. DUMB

Maybe to run an errand for cash, the black book, whatever...but it didn't happen, something went haywire if that is the case.
DO YOU THINK TEX WAS CONSIDERING LETTING HER GO?
To blindly go in and cause HS, one would think you would go in and slaughter the victims and get out and continue on the rampage....but it all stopped. THAT IS THE POINT- WHY
?

ColScott said...

If that is what they were after, where did the cops get this black book?GOOD QUESTION

Obviously, those at the LaBianca's house, knew they had time, time for a snack and a shower, etc. How did they know this- perhaps Suzan?
WELL THEY KNEW SOMEHOW THAT THERE WAS NO NEED TO HURRY- DID SUZAN AND JOE ACTUALLY MEET THEM WHILE THEY VISITED TRUE?


Why did the cops not know about Rosemary, and her body come as a shock to them? THAT COULD BE JUST BECAUSE

Why didn't Suzan or Frank ask about their Mother? AS IN THEY THOUGHT SHE WAS ELSEWHERE?

Why did she have a dress on over her nightgown-the modesty thing just doesn't fly with me. DUMB

Maybe to run an errand for cash, the black book, whatever...but it didn't happen, something went haywire if that is the case.
DO YOU THINK TEX WAS CONSIDERING LETTING HER GO?
To blindly go in and cause HS, one would think you would go in and slaughter the victims and get out and continue on the rampage....but it all stopped. THAT IS THE POINT- WHY
?

ColScott said...

>>Okay at what point did Leno disinherit his children and were Rosemary's kids aware of this?

DON'T KNOW
YES

60skid said...
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Salem said...

maybe.
after the $$$$ was not gotten at Hinmans, money wasnt gotten from VF, and CM really wants to get away ,( at this time he is afraid and wants to get outa Dodge) way back into the desert, they are desperate for cash, so maybe someone offered to pay him off to get the lil black book.(MOB)
?

Yepyep said...
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Danna said...

I believe most of the theories regarding the murders co-exist: The Helter Skelter motive, the copycat to free Bobby, symbolic revenge on the establishment, etc... It is much like evolution and the bible - the two are valid and can co-exist. I don't believe it is a matter of "either / or". Each piece of the puzzle serves its own unique purpose. I would like to also comment on posts I've seen numerous times questioning the actual guilt of Manson. Manson is guilty of conspiracy to commit murder for all 7 Tate/Labianca slayings, he is guilty of accessory after the fact as well on Tate and is guilty of murder in regards to the Labianca's. And let's not forget Hinman of which he is guilty of his murder as well he is guilty of murder when it comes to Shorty. At each of these killings, he was either present in some form, knew it was going to happen, or covered up after the fact. Manson is guilty as his followers who actually pulled the trigger or drove the knife in. He is a very dangerous man who should never, ever be released into society again.

Deb B said...

So why didn't they go directly to the LaBianca's house that night, but rather spent lots of time before driving around looking for targets?

Pristash said...

Good question, but I think the theory goes that Manson was just killing time and confusing everyone in the car...they seemed to be roaming aimlessly at his direction until they finally stopped and he made a telephone call. After he returned to the car, Charlie's directions became very specific...leading them to the LaBianca's....someone even asked if he was going to 'do' True's house when they saw they were there. Who was that again? Somebody, help me out here...help me please!

Pristash said...

Oh, and it is this telephone call that leads people to believe that Charlie was tipped off as to when the LaBianca's would be home. Some people believe it was Rosemary's daughter Suzen who Manson called.

GLH said...

I think Suzan knew more about her mother's murder and that's part of what caused her "breakdown". I do believe that the killers drove around until the LaBianca's came home, then went there to do their deeds.

Salem said...

danna says
He is a very dangerous man who should never, ever be released into society again.

I disagree...
He is no danger to us.
But not to worry, I am sure he will never get out.

Pristash said...

Ok, sorry about this because I'm drawing a blank...Wasn't Linda K one of the last people to join the family before the murders? Wasn't she there from just like early July? How would she have known Harold True's house? Didn't the Family party there in the winter time months before? How could she have recognized his house?

Joe said...

Pristash said:

"They seemed to be roaming aimlessly at his direction until they finally stopped and he made a telephone call. After he returned to the car, Charlie's directions became very specific...leading them to the LaBianca's...."

Where'd you get the info about the phone call? Never saw that before.

Yepyep said...
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Joe said...

Yep wrote: "I think even the Bug mentioned that [Manson call before LaBianca murders] in his book. Or is it only the phone call from Spahn's to Cielo Drive he mentioned and never bothered to explain?"

He mentioned NEITHER.

Pristash said...

Ok, maybe I am crazy, but Manson making the phone call the night of the LaBianca killing is something I've heard before somewhere, and thought the Bug mentioned it. Linda K's testimony perhaps? The phone call from Spahn to Cielo is an urban legend I'm afraid. People claim they saw it in a police report but no one can ever produce anything.

Pristash said...

...and although truth is indeed stranger than fiction, I find it terribly coincidental that True partied with the Manson group and the Kasabian's at different times and they all wind up at Waverly to kill the LBs....so while I'm at it...has anyone ever sought out a connection between Harold True, Bobby B and Gary Hinman?

Pristash said...

Ok, fplks...from Tex's book on his website:

"Before Charlie settled on the house on Waverly Drive, he would consider three more murders and attempt one of them. Somewhere in Pasadena he stopped at a church and left us in the car, saying he was going to kill the priest. He returned after a few moments and told us everything was locked up and no one had answered the rectory bell. In another residential neighborhood, we saw a couple pulling into their driveway. Charlie stopped across the street, but after waiting for a few minutes he changed his mind and we headed out to the beach. An hour later, coming toward town on Sunset Boulevard, we passed a small white sports car. Linda was driving at this point, and Charlie told her to pull up beside the car at the next signal-he was going to kill the driver. She did what she was told and he jumped out, the gun in his hand. But just then the light turned green and the sports car took off, the driver never aware how close he had come to death.

After that, Charlie started giving very specific directions to Linda, as if he had a particular place in mind. Eventually we ended up parked across the street from a large old Spanish - style house at 3301 Waverly Drive, near Griffith Park in the Los Feliz section of town. Apparently Linda recognized a house nearby, because she said something to Charlie about not hitting it. Charlie also knew the other place, having been there for an acid party with some of the Family over a year before, but he told her no, it was this house, the one directly across from us with the boat in the driveway-this was the house where Helter Skelter would fall again."

Ok, I think I now recall that it is just somebody's THEORY that during the time Manson was running around without his co-horts that he could have made a telephone call and then been tipped as to when the LaBianca's were home. I'll keep looking, but perhaps there is no more hard evidence, just conjecture again...leading us to another dead end perhaps.

deadpaintersgallery said...

As you probably already know, but have not updated yet that I have found (forgive me if I just haven't looked closely enough)Harold True had been out for about a year by the time of the murders. The home's owner, Julia Posella, and her son, Leonard, a lawyer, lived there. They split soon after the murders. Really soon, selling to the same Armenian family that bought the LaBianca place.

Timothy John Connell said...

Actually, in recent light of Aquarius, more info has come out with the LaBianca case. It was a diary entry/letter that said '...about a loud noise coming from next door. it was music. A party. Mr LaBianca went next door to get them to turn it down. Manson was (probably) at that party. The cops arrived afterwards to stop the excessive noise". Manson knew the location well. It was not so random.

grimtraveller said...

Pristash said...

"...and although truth is indeed stranger than fiction, I find it terribly coincidental that True partied with the Manson group and the Kasabian's at different times and they all wind up at Waverly to kill the LBs...."


Not really. The counterculture movement wasn't that huge if you put it into the context of the population of America. And "hippies" and their ilk travelled all over the country and most headed at some point for California and in and around LA or San Francisco. So people of like mind running into each other or people having friends or acquaintances in common wasn't so unusual. For example, both Linda Kasabian and Paul Watkins had, as a common acquaintance, Charles Melton. And Melton had met Tex at Spahn before Watkins even left the family. See what I mean ?

Peter Moran said...

Wasn't the LaBianca's house loaded with stuff that could have easily been stolen, from guns to an expensive coin collection. If they were in need of money, why did they only take the chocolate milk? If they had any connection with the LaBianca children, wouldn't they know about all these things they could have stolen? These people stole everything from their victims and weren't particularly careful about what they did with the property - Hinman's cars, Shorty's guns.

I agree with Harold True that you can't apply reason to crazy people. I think Chalie probably saw Helter Skelter as a means of keeping the family together and further isolating them from the rest of society. I may be wrong, but my sense was that core members particularly male members were starting to fall out of orbit. My sense was always that Charlie needed the girls because the girls kept the men around, and while the girls could cook, and sew, and scavenge for garbage, their real purpose was to attract more men, who did Charlie's real heavy lifting. I don't really think Charlie believed in Helter Skelter, but he was able to get the others - particularly the girls - to believe it. So it served a very real purpose to Charlie. Charlie's motive was retaining control over his immediate circle.

Tom McDonald said...

Harolds name was on the lease next door to the LaBianca's house and he lived there with my uncle Ernie (Bud) Baltzell. Manson and a few of the girls stayed with them for a month or so and asked if they could stay permanently and Harold said he was OK with it but Bud said no and told Manson he didn't like what was going on or how he was with the girls so he made him move out. Buds told me Manson had sent the the followers back to the house to kill Bud but they too had moved out of the house. Buds has said to me that the Labianca's didn't live there when they all were living next door and thought that when they didn't find Harold or Bud there that the Labianca's saw them up to no good and they desided to kill them. He said Manson was killing everyone who had told him "NO" and the Labianca's were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

rocky said...

In Harold True s interview with the police after Manson was arrested he indicated that True had contacted him in Jail and at first Manson didnt even remember him...........and then he did remember and said you were a friend........so scratch the ticked off at Harold True motive. On the night after the Tate murders, Manson and his bunch still had the murder itch and they drove out to Pasadena and started to look for people to kill. They almost shot a guy in a convertible next to them at a traffic light, they went to a church looking for somebody to kill, they went to a residence but Manson saw a photo of a young child on the wall and didnt want to kill them, they went to various residences but they werent isolated enuf. Then Manson remembered the house next to Trues, somewhat isolated.............and there you have it. Same thing with Tate residence, Manson had been there, knew it was isolated and was looking for wealthy people to butcher to cause a sensation because he was life s biggest loser.