Tuesday, May 08, 2007

JemPud Speaketh, So Sayeth the Col


JEMPUD in the comments writes

With regard to this latest posting "Leslie Houten Murdering Slut", I have to wonder whether the tenor (and more specifically the phrasing) might not be telling us as much, if not more, about Col Scott than it does about LVH. I am indifferent to LVH's guilt/innocence, and was not part of the legal machine that put her there. But a cold review of her lengthy incarceration suggests that thirty-eight years after the events there should be some kind of statute of limitations. Given that her continued presence in jail is a political issue rather than a legal one, does it not call for some examination of a process that allows, for example, 'victim's family rights' at hearings to people who have no relation to the victim of the parolee?

And should the people who continue to impede her being paroled when the whole legal system cries out that ‘yes, like it or not, she should be allowed to go free’, not themselves be arraigned for some kind of
habeas corpus, fuelled by vengeance rather than justice? And, can a momentary lapse of judgment (induced by any combination of: youth, emotional immaturity, lack of self confidence, overdependence on a charismatic leader one is desperate to curry favour with, immense peer pressure, mind-altering drugs and the exhilaration, over-exuberance and hedonistic thrill of being young and dropping out in a happy, hippy, hedonistic age), even when leading to such terrible circumstances, not be considered ‘paid’ by now. I'm sure that all of us have at some stage done something without due thought of the consequences, egged on by people and circumstances we are unable or unwilling to control. And been prepared to pay for our stupidity/thoughtlessness. And after due time and process been prepared to show signs of atonement. In such cases is it not reasonable to hope for forgiveness? Forgiveness is the true mark of the Christian, and also of the rational mind – vengeance that of the heathen and of the mindless bigot. Let he (or her) that is without sin … Jem

The Great and Powerful Col Comments- I know many Christians and thus am proud to be a heathen. Christians are the man reason this world is going to hell in a handbag. That said, Leslie DOES deserve to be forgiven. Forgiveness does NOT mean that your punishment is eradicated. It means that your apology is accepted. You say you are sorry, Mommy still loves you and you STILL stand in the corner and apologize to your icky brother. Here is a quote from the Evil Mark Turner's website for YOU to digest, Jemmy-

The following are excerpts from Leslie Van Houten's trial testimony:

"I had a knife and Patricia had a knife. We just started stabbing and cutting up the lady."

"I stabbed her. I don't know if it was before or after death but I stabbed her."

When asked if she felt sorry, she answered: "That's only a five-letter word. It can't bring back anyone."

"What can I feel? It's happened. She's gone. You can't undo something that's done."

When asked if she felt ashamed, she replied "What is ashamed?"

When asked if she felt like crying, she replied "For her death? If I cry, it's for death itself. She's not the only person who died."

The following excerpt is from "Helter Skelter:"

In interviewing Dianne, I learned a number of things which hadn’t come out in her earlier interviews. While they were in the desert together, at Willow Springs, Patricia Krenwinkel had told her that she had dragged Abigail Folger from the bedroom into the living room of the Tate residence. And Leslie Van Houten, after admitting to her that she had stabbed someone, had commented that at first she had been reluctant to do so, but then she’d discovered the more you stabbed, the more fun it was.

Another excerpt from "Helter Skelter:"

By the time I’d finished my cross-examination on this, Leslie had admitted that Rosemary might still have been alive when she stabbed her; and that she not only stabbed her in the buttocks and possibly the neck, but "I could have done a couple on the back." (As I’d later remind the jury, many of the back wounds were not post-mortem, while one, which severed Rosemary LaBianca’s spine, would have been in and of itself fatal.)

Still think this murdering harlot (think FIFTH COMMANDMENT, Christian) should be allowed to roam free? You think that MURDER is a mistake in judgement?

35 comments:

jempud said...

Col dice…

The Great and Powerful Col Comments- I know many Christians and thus am proud to be a heathen. Christians are the man reason this world is going to hell in a handbag.

Well that doesn’t advance the level of debate much, does it, Col? I am not a Christian either, but that doesn’t mean I don’t live my life by certain precepts or that I don’t respect the beliefs of others. It’s something about being a mature adult.

No, I don’t think that murder is a mistake in judgment. But then again I don’t know enough about the circumstances in which the murders were committed. I don’t know enough about the mental condition of the assailants at the time. I know enough of war and the ‘final solution’ to know that many decent soldiers were persuaded to murder and maim victims in concentration camps. I lived through the early days of the 1975-81 Junta in my native Argentina and had among my friends both those convinced that killing izquierdistas was the only way forward and those who thought the only way to enlightenment was to bring down the government and military leaders by murdering them in their beds. All presumably with God on their side. I also spent some time working in the drug rehabilitation unit of a psychiatric hospital in London in the early 70s and saw how confused, how out of touch with reality impressionable young people can be. I think it would be disingenuous to deny that those murders were committed under the aegis and influence of CM – quite how great that influence was will probably never be known, but I suggest there is a case to be made that LVH would not have killed if she had not met him.

I have no wish to argue with you, Col, and you most likely have forgotten more about this TLB thing than I will ever know. But I do ask you to take a slightly less Manichaean stand. Judgments on human behaviour are complex and a simple on–off switch isn’t enough – we need a rheostat. How we calibrate it, how much light or darkness we accord to our interpretation of events is a personal choice but we must be careful not to confuse our own versions with the ‘one true’ version. We must also be careful not to confuse fact and opinion, and surely we need to accept that no one, not even the great Col, has a monopoly of the truth.

So, IMHO, calling LVH a ‘murdering harlot’ does nothing, except perhaps boost your ego in that you do it to show you CAN do it, that you control the blog, that you can impose your pov on others. But it doesn’t really help. As I said earlier, it tells us far more about you than about LVH.

At the end of the day, Col, these are people you (we) are talking about. Whatever they have done they deserve certain rights, a certain dignity. If we fail to accord them that we are little better than they. You refer to LVH’s trial testimony – fair enough. I wasn’t for one moment suggesting that she hadn’t been complicit in murder, or that she had been wrongly imprisoned. I was merely commenting that in my view she might by now, through repentance, atonement and contrition, be considered for parole and that the reasons this was not happening might be political. I have no vested interest in the outcome – but then again I’m not sure that her continued incarceration serves the cause of justice.

We’ll see what happens in time. It’ll also be interesting, in time, to see if the Col grows up and learns to express himself in more measured, less polarised terms. Behind all that bluster and bigotry lies a fine mind. We’ll see.

Jem

catscradle77 said...

I am a heathen, thus I confess, have no icky brother, but would like my cookie now, please.

Rosemary's wounds--could she have been crawling away, while the one wound that severed her spine and left her unable to continue her crawl left her in the face down position upon her floor?

As far as the relationship with Mr. Beausoleil-wasn't Leslie traveling with Gail, Gypsy and maybe another woman. Then the women started to bicker, as women do, and she ASKED to stay at the Ranch? Bobby must not have thought to much of the relationship, for it seems that Kitty became his choice.

ColScott said...

I know enough of war and the ‘final solution’ to know that many decent soldiers were persuaded to murder and maim victims in concentration camps.

Under the laws of the English language that sentence is incorrect.
No one DECENT murdered people in a concentration camp.

ColScott said...

LVH would not have killed if she had not met him.

This is factually false- read my whole post. If anything, she killed because TEX told her to.

SHE WANTED TO BE THERE THAT NIGHT- BEGGED TO BE THERE.

ColScott said...

Whatever they have done they deserve certain rights, a certain dignity.

When you put a pillowcase over the head of a mother of two, hold her down and stab her, you are no longer entitled to human dignity. I think most would agree with me.

ColScott said...

but then again I’m not sure that her continued incarceration serves the cause of justice.

You are making me quote the hated BUG- but I will- here was a woman sentenced to DEATH. If she gets out what good is the law?

ColScott said...

It’ll also be interesting, in time, to see if the Col grows up and learns to express himself in more measured, less polarised terms.

Not likely. I'm generally an angry asshole. Fer reals.

Heaven said...

I must agree with everything the Col said...

Leslie is being punished for her crimes. Since no one here is one of the victims OR one of the surviving family members, it's easy to sit back and say "She's done her time, let her out"..

You might feel differently if Leslie's actions had greatly impacted your life...

If your mother, father, sister, brother or child was slaughtered in such a brutal fashion, would you want the killer ever going free?


Just my opinion of course

=)

catscradle77 said...

Jempud said: So, IMHO, calling LVH a ‘murdering harlot’ does nothing, except perhaps boost your ego in that you do it to show you CAN do it, that you control the blog, that you can impose your pov on others.


>>>Impose his POV? Sorry, I come here to read because I CHOOSE to-my own free will and so forth. Just as Leslie chose to stay at the ranch, and chose to go murder, chose to burn Rosemary's clothes, chose to drink the chocolate milk from the LaBianca's refrigerator.

To compare the home invasion slaughter of the victims to actual wartime atrocities, seems a little far fetched as well. To assume this posture would mean that one would have to accept the whole HS/war theory and most will admit that that is bunk.

catscradle77 said...

And as far as Rosemary being dead when she stabbed her, only 13 of Rosemary's 41 stab wounds were done post-mortem. If Leslie says she believes she stabbed her 16 times, doesnt that mean that Rosemary was still alive when she started stabbing her?

Heaven said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
catscradle77 said...

From the Colonel: Another excerpt from "Helter Skelter:"

By the time I’d finished my cross-examination on this, Leslie had admitted that Rosemary might still have been alive when she stabbed her; and that she not only stabbed her in the buttocks and possibly the neck, but "I could have done a couple on the back." (As I’d later remind the jury, many of the back wounds were not post-mortem, while one, which severed Rosemary LaBianca’s spine, would have been in and of itself fatal.)


>>So basically she could have been lying there, unable to move with her spine severed, getting stabbed by Leslie.
Or has it been that Leslie delivered the spine slashing blow? If two or three of the wounds could have been fatal, was there any determination of the order of the possible blows and the one that caused her death? (bleed out times etc vary.)
The thought of Rosemary lying there, unable to move and dying, getting stabbed more is really quite ..at a loss for words here.

But I guess I am just being heavy hearted, because those who were in the house, showered, ate watermelon and left the rind in the sink, and took the chocolate milk from the fridge. The chocolate milk, Leslie said at one point they drank in the LaBiancas bushes and that she partook in because it "was just there".

Dok said...

Cat said:

>>So basically she could have been lying there, unable to move with her spine severed, getting stabbed by Leslie.
Or has it been that Leslie delivered the spine slashing blow? If two or three of the wounds could have been fatal, was there any determination of the order of the possible blows and the one that caused her death? (bleed out times etc vary.)
The thought of Rosemary lying there, unable to move and dying, getting stabbed more is really quite ..at a loss for words here.>>


Very sobering comments. I agree with you Cat it's incredibly hard to fathom what Rosemary went through...LVH should stay where she is. Her actions almost 40 years ago should be forgiven but not forgotten. I think she can do more with her life in prison then outside.

To insinuate that the killers are now the victims is highly insulting to the people who lost their lives in these monstrous crimes. People tend to forget what the killer's did and how callus they were about it, i.e. eating the decedent's food, wearing their clothing, writing eerie messages on the walls in their blood or tasting a dying pregnant woman's blood.

I think some people have misplaced sympathy...

catscradle77 said...

Hey Dok, good to see you my friend.

I think there is forgiveness to be had, but those I think that need to offer it, if they can, would be the loved ones of the victims. Just my take on it.

Can we predict the recidivism of killers, molesters, etc., not from what I have seen and read. Whether or not they are now up in years should not really play a factor in anything in my eyes, they did what they did. I believe there was a person by the name of Albert Fish (just to name one) who was indeed elderly, who stuck needles up his own sac like 27 of them, and assaulted a child. Maybe a different variety of killer, but a killer nontheless.

The system now, seems to be more for the criminal instead of the victims. God forbid we violate their rights in some way. There are situations that indeed may prove that positive change has taken place, but in this case, the fact of blaming Charles Manson (ie. she wouldnt have done it if it weren't for Manson.I call bunk on that statement, she came with Bobby, chose to stay at the Ranch, and has stated that really Manson wasn't her type--too short or something--and that Bobby was beautiful etc.), blaming drugs (ie he made me take drugs yadda bullshiat yadda--when she used way before Manson. Can he be blamed for the progression of her addiction? I don't think so, just my thought.

I still remember many moons ago, you telling me about Sharon and baby Paul in her arms in the casket. And that has stuck with me.

When one choses to do these heinous things, one must accept the responsibilty for them.

Godspeed ma Dok.

Heaven said...

Very well said Dok...

Misplaced sympathy indeed!

=)

agnostic monk said...

I have said before that I think Leslie probably deserves a chance at freedom. I always say "probably" because I haven't schooled myself enough in our California parole laws. But I agree with Heaven and Cats that it is easy for me to say these things, because LVH did not take someone I love away from me, and to be honest I am not that emotionally invested in her destiny one way or the other.

One thing that has always seemed odd to me is the difference between post-mortem and pre-mortem stabs. Leslie should not be given a break if Rosemary was dead when her stabs were delivered. It shouldn't (IMHO) make a damn bit of difference. Rosemary was lying there on the floor and Leslie had absolutely no idea if she was dead or not, so to me it's a moot point. Stabbing a human body, whether it is already dead or 30 seconds from inevitable death, is pretty much the same thing to me. Or, if anything, it's almost (sorta, kinda, weirdly) worse to do it post-mortem, because if the body is already dead then it's a stabbing for thrills only, which if you think about it is insane. IMAGINE stabbing someone for the mere thrills! It's incomprehensible (not that stabbing for the intent to kill is comprehensible - I hope I am not misunderstood here).

agnostic monk said...

Oh, and one thing I know for sure is that Leslie is the ONLY one out of all the jailed killers who I think deserves even the slightest consideration for parole. Tex/Pat/Susan should be immensely grateful for and make themselves comfy with their Jesus work, volleyball games, writing classes, and the meals/college degrees/visitor privileges that I help pay for.

agnostic monk said...

and then (the monk can't shut up - too much late afternoon coffee) we get to Bobby and Bruce. I realize we are talking about Leslie, and I am not in the least trying to start any kind of forum conflicts because I know these two have had their supporters, but are their crimes worse or not as bad as that of the homecoming princess?

Bobby held Gary captive for 2-3 days while he suffered a slow death. Bruce physically helped snuff out a life that was no less valuable than Rosemary's.

I'm just curious how people compare.

Dok said...

I think it healthy to forgive...it is not my place to forgive LVH or to even ask for it. My intention was not to show any of the victim's family members disrespect by my last post. My wish would be for them to have the peace that forgivness brings.

Monk, I agree with you, stabbing a person knowing or not knowing if they are dead or alive carries the same intention...to cause harm.

Scramblehead said...

Col, why all the Leslie attention? Let's do a big BUG expose'

Let's get to the bottom of the BUG. Including the revelation that he hired a PI to follow Gail around because his "sexual paranoia" (as CM put it) was blowing the meter to Iowa, and he was convinced she was having an affair with...someone...maybe he thought she was hanging out at the ranch. Don't know. Maybe Stovitz would have all the goods on this.

Anyway, lots of fun Col.

agnostic monk said...

Scramblehead said...
>>Including the revelation that he hired a PI to follow Gail around because his "sexual paranoia" (as CM put it)

well he wouldn't be the first wealthy man (or woman) to hire a PI to follow his spouse due to such suspicions, or maybe I watch too many bad movies, LOL.

I don't remember Charlie accusing Bugliosi of being "sexually paranoid," whatever that means. Where'd that come from, Scram? Was it just a general "this is why he's trying to get us" type of accusation?

catscradle77 said...

What is Mr. Stovitz doing these days? And I can only imagine the stories he could tell.
I am also interested in Perry Walshin and David DeLoach-the Cali attorneys Tex had basically on retainer when he fled to Texas, and they were turned away when they got there.
Perry Walshin was convicted of trying to smuggle 80,000 worth of cocaine into the US from South America, and David DeLoach his partner of running massage parlors and pimping. One of the "clubs" that was being run was right up the road from the Wig Shop Tex worked for.
I just am playing guilt by association, and wonder how much, if anything Tex was involved in this operation etc...

catscradle77 said...

And just to clarify as well, I am not stating that stabbing a live person vs. a dead person bears any different weight. My statements were intended for the purpose of showing that the "I stabbed a dead body" and I was "staring blankly out of the room" were just mere excuses for not being able to accept the resposibility for the heinousness of the act.

Nor do I put more value on anyones life than anothers. Be a garbage man, welder, bank official, president etc. does not make ones life more valuable than someone elses. A human life is a human life, regardless of status in life.

catscradle77 said...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Charles-Mansons-Handball_W0QQitemZ200108511221QQihZ010QQcategoryZ313QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

For a lighted laugh-for 5,000 you can own a supposed handball that was given to this person's cousin that was housed with Charles Manson.

He can get paperwork showing his cousin was housed with Manson and he states he can get ballistics if necessary..

Aint no lie...ROFLMAO BALLISTICS..

Heaven said...

Hey Cats,

I saw that auction earlier today and laughed...

Considering they say Manson is in his cell for 23 out of 24 hours a day and is always in the hole, when did he find time for handball? lol

catscradle77 said...

Hey Heaven

And ballistics---ROFLMAO--that totally cracked me up.Hey it is a ball and all...

And, hey 5,000 with a letter from someone who was just in the prison too. What a bargain...

agnostic monk said...

catscradle77 said...
>>>And just to clarify as well, I am not stating that stabbing a live person vs. a dead person bears any different weight...
>>>Nor do I put more value on anyones life than anothers...

hey cats buddy I hope you don't think I was insinuating or singling you out at all. I was not. The topics above have been elements of the discussion of LVH from the beginning, brought out at the trial. I was more *asking* how people compare and stating my own opinion, not criticizing yours or anyone else's opinion, if that's how it sounded I apologize. I have deep respect for you and everyone else involved in this discussion.

catscradle77 said...

No, Mr. Monk, I didnt take it that way and it was indeed a valid question. I just wanted to clarify that if I came off sounding like one death is more important than another that that is not what I meant. Sometimes type written words do not come off like they are meant. Things are not always so crystal clear, and lines get blurred by expression or perhaps how they are taken by who reads them.

I have expressed how I felt previously and why so, and I didn't really deem it necessary to spew it again-lol. As you know I have something in my heart concerning one of the parties involved, but as I have expressed this person has dropped a few notches for previously stated reasons.

But either way, dead is dead, and how can anyone be sure that the change or perhaps act one portrays is actually what lies underneath? Knowing me the way you do, you know I don't place value upon status etc., that I place value on who a person is on the inside, and I know that you didn't mean it in a way that could be interpreted.

(now I think I had too much coffee.)

agnostic monk said...

catscradle77 said...
>>>Knowing me the way you do, you know I don't place value upon status etc., that I place value on who a person is on the inside

Without a doubt.

>>>(now I think I had too much coffee.)

I seem to be subsisting on it lately. Not good! But probably better than meth, right?

:)

Dok said...

Cat maybe that ebay auction should have read furball and not handball...Monk stay off the meth.

catscradle77 said...

Hey Dok,

If this gentleman can prove the "ownership" of this ball thru ballistics, then what scientific method can he prove the "ownership" of the furball?

And Monk, have another cup of coffee, and if you want a Marlburo, I shall pass you one, for it goes fine with that cup of joe--a fine diet, I can vouch for this :)

jempud said...

I don't know whether anyone is still reading this thread, but it might be instructive if each of us were to ask ourselves whether the purpose of prison is punishment or rehabilitation.

And, without wishing to sound all religious (which I am not) whether or not we think that anyone can truly be without redemption.

I realise that I am in a minority in my views (although I see the Monk is tempted), but I've never subscribed to the idea that what the majority believe is necessarily right.

Jem

Deb said...

Jem:

I think jail is supposed to be 3 things:

1. Punishment
2. Rehabilitation
3. Deterrence

Is 37 years enough punishment for Leslie? It depends on who is doing the answering. Sometimes I think it is and sometimes I think it isn't. But Leslie's sentence is not merely about whether or not Mrs. LaBianca was alive or dead when Leslie stabbed her - no one except for God will ever know if Mrs. LaBianca was in fact dead.

The point is, never minding that she was only 21ish, that she and her friends went willingly into a home where they were not invited and where the two inhabitants were tied up against their will. From there Leslie helped Pat to take Mrs. LaBianca into another room knowing fully that Tex was about to murder Mr. LaBianca. Leslie did not help Mrs. LaBianca when she tried to escape and in fact, she tried to impede escape by tying the electrical cords of lamps to her hands and covering Mrs. LaBianca's head with a pillowcase.

Leslie also did nothing to stop Tex and/or Pat K from stabbing Mr. LaBianca and shoving a giant fork into his abdomen or carving "war" on his stomach. Granted, that might have been impossible but she could have gone to the authorities prior to being arrested to explain her participation in the events. Not very likely but again an option and since Linda Kasbian has been criticized for the very same thing and she didn't kill anyone or even stab someone (dead or alive) it should be counted against Leslie as well.

So we have break and entering, kidnapping, aiding and abetting a murder and at the least, manslaughter so there Leslie was charged with more than one offence. LVW probably could have copped a deal back in 1975/76 when she was re-tried for the murders and been out by now but she went for an acquittal so she lost.

Deterrance, should also be considered. Unfortunately for Leslie, she is part of a notorious murder (both the victims and the accused) and that has to have had an impact on her case. However, lots of people still look up at CM
as some sort of god-like person and that in itself shows that deterrance still has to be an option. Were the case not as well known definitely would have negated the deterrance factor.

While I appreciate all that you and your friends have been through (although realistically I have no idea what your life has been like), I would think it would be more of an insult to you and yours to compare your lives to those of privileged children who moved in with a middle aged con artist and did everything he told them to do (from sex and drugs to murder).

my thoughts only....

Hi Dok, Cats, Monk and Heaven and as always Colonel....

Dumb question of the day ... who gave Clem the nickname Scramblehead?

Deb

Deb said...

Holy crap!! I have never written such a long blog :)

Deb

grimtraveller said...

Deb said...

"I have never written such a long blog"


Well, all these years later, it's still pretty passionate and makes good reading.