What did Charlie Actually SAY?

In order for the BUG to get Charlie he had to show CONSPIRACY.

I'd like to list what he actually said to people.

And remember- these people want to get OUT- and yet they do not lie about what he actually said.

To Bobby- "You know what to do. Be a man."

To Sadie- "Get a change of clothes, go with Tex and do whatever Tex tells you to do."

To Tex- "Go up to Terry Melcher's old place. Make sure to leave a sign."

I don't know- even today NOBODY is saying he said "Take a knife and go butcher some innocent people."

Weird. But then I am not a brilliant attorney like BUG.

Who's The Lamest One of All?

Lost Soul asks me about a bookmark to the Grandaddy of us all, the old Clark Ronson/Scott Nelson message board. I don't have it. Do any of you? She would like to check it out via Wayback Machine. I don't think that works for Message Boards, but it is worth a try.

I DO have a link for one of the sites that splintered from that board, a site so lame it makes candygramma look educated. It was run by Linda Mann, aka Frontera, a Sadie supporter who would allow no facts on her board. It seems to have died over a year ago, but some of the posts are hilarious in their inaccuracy. Check it out. If you are gonna support Sadie, then you must have a problem in my opinion, and the people here sure did. WHEAT!

Gender does not Affect Brains

Yesterday's post about the retarded owner of "Manson and the Family" brought this reply.

The owner of the blog---http://tatelabianca.blogspot.com/

and the MOLE that is in this group for putting US on your front page..

You are right I do not know all there is to know about Manson and the family-- I dont HAVE to know everything or anything...but at least I know what a gramma is-- gramma =female and grampa=male,what a dunce you are for not knowing the difference I am not a HE.

I am an owner of several CRIME RELATED groups,doesnt mean I know about everyone of the criminals that are being convicted..

But I am glad you have nothing else to do in your sad little world that you have to have someone join a group just so YOU can get discussions in YOURS.. How sad!!But hey-- feel free to do so-- just like you can take things from here-- I can take things from there and post here..

If you are against Manson and Family why not join Killed the Sixties?? ---http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KILLEDTHESIXTIES/
or view here:
http://users.adelphia.net/~mansonmurders/

Now you have a really great day-- and keep me on the front page-- I feel so honored.....
cg (female)

The comedy never ceases with this lame-o. First of all, I'm not a mole- this isn't some spy game, this is a discussion between the only Official Tate-LaBianca site on the web and a badly put together Manson discussion group on Yahoo which is worried about offending Larry the Rabbitt who should be buffing my shoes right now. I am there under the name John. I am not moleing or hiding, you tools.

Second, YES, if you are the moderator of a group that is about a subject you should have enough knowledge to know who Barbara Hoyt was. She isn't a minor character. You know who Rabbitt is, who means SHIT to this case, but not her? Moron.

My group has all the discussion we need, thank you babycakes. We don't always agree but we are accurate and have first hand knowledge from interviewing principals. The only principal you know is the one that flunked you out of high school.

Sorry about your gender rage- I never stopped to think about whether you were a he or a she. In general I find girls to be better educated than men, so I assumed the ignoramous in charge (you) must be a guy. Sorry. Thank you for establishing that the education levels in the US are just as low for girls as for guys.

Now go back to your poorly spelled posts and meaningless life.

Your Stupidity is Showing

There is this Yahoo group that is even more retarded than KTS. It is called "Manson and the Family". There is a hilarious poster there named Pammie who is taking the piss out of everybody and they are too stupid to get it. Gia, who sounds like somebody who got kicked out of KTS is there, moderating (badly). A baboon who claims to be White Rabbit is there using bizarre typeface and inconclusive information. And my favorite, "candygrammar", who owns the group and doesn't know shit from shinola. I picture him looking like the photo to the left.

I mean today he asked who Barbara Hoyt was and who Simi Valley Sherri was. The clown owns a Manson discussion group and has never read a book or even googled the case. LAME.

My favorite is the back and forth dicsussion about HOW the Bug "got" Charlie. Whether he should have or not, HOW he got him is simple. It has nothing to do with the "felony murder rule" one of the posters is discussing. As a disbarred attorney myself I'll make it crystal clear in one sentence.

Under the law, all the members of a conspiracy are equally guilty of the crime committed. Simple.

Check the place out. The education level in America really is low.

Get Their License Number !!!!

I look for the truth in the details, where God is supposed to be. That was why I questioned the driver's license explanation for the presence of Kasabian on the night of the murders.

It never made sense to me that the killers, finished with five murders, stopped to get hosed down- and then almost get caught. Like another second or two and they were busted.

The only first hand explanation I've ever read comes from Tex's book... and doesn't compute. It doesn't occur to you to kill the guy when he's trying to hold you for the cops, MINUTES after you kill a houseful of strangers?

So many things we will never know....

From his book----

Linda turned off Benedict Canyon onto Portola Drive, one of the winding side streets, looking for a place where we could wash. Finally we saw an exposed hose. As we poured the water over ourselves, drenching our hair and clothes, a man and woman suddenly appeared at their door in bathrobes, asking us what we were doing.

I put on my Texas accent, saying we had just been walking and needed a drink. As we ran back to the car, the man followed us, his wife shrieking, "Get the license number; get the number!" from the doorway. In my rush I flooded the engine, and as I struggled to get the car started again the old man came up to my window and stuck his hand in, grabbing for the keys. I managed to crank up the glass and drive off, leaving him shouting after us in the middle of the road. For some reason it never occurred to any of us to try to kill him-he didn't live on Cielo Drive.

The Body in The Basement (Other Murders/Unsolved #2)

While taking a look at these killings, the weird thing is how often NO ONE BOTHERED to pursue anyone. Wouldn't happen today, so why did it then?

From the bestelling novel (lots of fiction) HELTER SKELTER:

"With three exceptions, these are all the known murders which have been proven, or are suspected to be, linked to the Manson Family. Are there more? I've discussed this with officers from LAPD and LASO, and we tend to think that there probably are, because these people liked to kill. But there is no hard evidence.

"As for those three other murders, two of them occurred as late as 1972.

"On November 8, 1972, a hiker near the Russian River resort community of Guerneville, in Northern California, saw a hand protruding from the ground. When police exhumed the body, it was found to be that of a young man wearing the dark-blue tunic of a Marine dress uniform. He had been shotgunned and decapitated.

The victim was subsequently identified as James T. Willett, twenty-six, a former Marine from Los Angeles County. This information appeared on radio and TV newscasts on Friday, November 10. {Page 26 Cal.3d 800}

On Saturday, November 11, Stockton, California, police spotted Willett's station wagon parked in front of a house at 720 West Flora Street. When refused entry to the house, they broke in, arresting two men and two women and confiscating a number of pistols and shotguns.

"Both women had Manson Family X's on their foreheads. They were Priscilla Cooper, twenty-one, and Nancy Pitman, aka Brenda McCann, twenty. A few minutes after police entered the residence, a third female called, asking to be picked up and given a ride to the house. The police obliged, and also arrested Lynette Fromme, aka Squeaky, twenty-four, ex-officio leader of the Family in Manson's absence.

"The two men were Michael Monfort, twenty-four, and James Craig, thirty-three, both state prison escapees wanted for a number of armed robberies in various parts of California. Both had the letters 'AB' tattooed on their left breasts. According to a spokesman for the state Department of Corrections, the initials stood for the Aryan Brotherhood, described as 'a cult of white prison inmates, dedicated largely to racism but also involved in hoodlum activities, including murder contracts ....'

"While in the house, the police noticed freshly turned earth in the basement. After obtaining a search warrant, they began digging, and early the following morning exhumed the body of Lauren Willett, nineteen. She had been shot once in the head, her death occurring either late Friday night or early Saturday morning, not long after the identity of her slain husband was revealed on the news broadcasts.

"Questioned by the police, Priscilla Cooper claimed that Lauren Willett had killed herself 'playing Russian roulette.'

"Although, like Zero, Mrs. Willett was not able to contradict this story, the Stockton police were far more skeptical than had been LASO. The three women and two men were charged with her murder.

"They were scheduled to go on trial in May 1973. On April 2, however, four of the five surprised the Court by entering guilty pleas. Michael Monfort, who pleaded guilty to the murder of Lauren Willett, was sentenced to seven years to life in state prison. Superior Court Judge James Darrah also ordered consecutive terms of up to five years and two years for James Craig, who had pleaded guilty to being an accessory after the fact to murder and to possessing an illegal weapon, {Page 26 Cal.3d 801} i.e., a sawed-off shotgun. Both girls also pleaded guilty to being an accessory after the fact, and both Priscilla Cooper and Nancy Pitman, aka Brenda, who Manson once indicated to me was his chief candidate for Family assassin, were sent to state prison for up to five years.

"* * *

"Monfort, and an accomplice, William Goucher, twenty-three, subsequently pleaded guilty to second degree murder in the death of James Willett, and were sent to state prison for five years to life. Craig, who pleaded guilty to being an accessory after the fact to the murder, was given another prison term of up to five years.

"The motive for the two murders is not known. It is known that the Willetts had been associated with the Manson Family for at least a year, and possibly longer. Police surmised that Lauren Willett was killed after learning of the murder of her husband, to keep her from going to the police. As for the murder of James Willett, the official police theory is that Willett himself may have been about to inform about the robberies the group had committed."

I Walk The Line

I always thought Joaquin would make a very good Charles Manson in a film. Much better than that tool Davies. Railsback was good in portraying a convincing Charlie. But not THE Charlie. Who else do y'all think could do it? Let us know your thoughts in a comment!

Scream Test

While we review the appeals statements for you, we found a nugget that I don't think I have seen anywhere before.

During the Shea trial, Charlie wanted to conduct a "Scream Test" to see if the myopic Barbara Hoyt could really have heard Shorty's screams.

Considering the fact that I believe she DID hear them, just not remotely WHERE she said she did, it might have been a valuable test.

Aww who am I kidding. Charlie was just being a card. A cut-up. You know.

Manson claims that the trial court committed reversible error because it denied his request to conduct a "screaming lineup" in the presence of the jury at the Spahn Ranch to determine whether or not Hoyt was truthfull when she testified that she heard Shea screaming late at night in the latter part of August 1969. Manson wanted to use a "group" of people in the test. For obvious reasons Shea would not have been one of the group.

In effect, Manson wanted to conduct an experiment. The trial court's discretion to refuse an experiment is very broad Experiment evidence may be rejected if it consumes an undue amount of time. Before such experiments are permitted, it must be established that the conditions will be substantially similar.

In People v. Spencer (1922) 58 Cal.App. 197 [280 P. 380], the prosecution was permitted to produce evidence of an experiment that it would have been possible for a witness at one designated point to hear a woman screaming at another designated point. In Spencer, supra, the prosecution did not seek to identify the screaming of a particular individual but just the fact of screaming generally. However, that was not the purpose of Manson's motion in the case at bar. His motion was to conduct a screaming lineup to establish that the witness would not have been able to identify the screams of a particular designated person (Shea) who would not have been in the lineup.

The fact, if it be a fact, that the witness might or might not have been able to identify the screams of one or even several persons would have no probative value as to whether or not she would have been able to identify the voice of Shea had he been in the lineup, or more importantly whether she identified the voice of Shea on the particular night in question. The identifying characteristics of individual human voices are very disparate. The ability to identify the voice of a particular individual depends upon the characteristics of that individual's voice and the familiarity of the witness with that individual's voice. Identification or failure to identify one human voice does not necessarily prove or disprove the ability to identify another human voice. Furthermore, experiment evidence must be conducted under substantially similar circumstances. Here Hoyt heard Shea scream late at night. It is a matter of common knowledge that background noises are usually at a minimum and that sounds usually carry better and are more distinct late at night. "The still of the night" is more than a poetic phrase. Atmospheric conditions may well be different at different times of the day. To grant Manson's request, therefore, the jury would have been required to go to the Spahn Ranch late at night in order to have the experiment conducted under substantially similar conditions. Furthermore, since the precise place of murder was unknown to the prosecution and court, the court {Page 71 Cal.App.3d 45} would have been unable to determine whether or not the persons who would be doing the "screaming" would be at the point where Shea was when he screamed and was heard by Hoyt. The trial court, in the exercise of its sound discretion, may refuse such experiment under dissimilar circumstances and where the trial would have been unduly disrupted.

If so-called scientific voice print experiments are not admissible in evidence it is clear that the court did not abuse its discretion in the case at bar by refusing the request for a "screaming lineup." Certainly no abuse of discretion is shown here.

....And the Rest, Are Here on Gilligan's Ranch

Did you ever wonder how some of the minor members of the Family fit in to the equation? I did. Whatup Country Sue? How're ya Randy?

Ella Jo Bailey, pictured here, with the unflattering profile was a definite member of the Clan Manson. She's mentioned everywhere, though this is the only picture I could dig up. She testifies against Manson at his Hinman trial. Doesn't say much before or after that. The appeals court for that trial summed up her testimony later thusly---

Ella Jo Bailey testified for the People that she had known Manson since 1967 and travelled extensively throughout the southwestern United States with him, Mary Brunner, Patricia Krenwinkel and Lynne Fromme, and that they moved to the Spahn Ranch in 1968 where she met Davis and Beausoleil. Several times during May and June 1969, Manson talked to Bailey and others about "going out" to get money to buy dune buggies to go to the desert to live. In July of 1969 Manson talked to several members of the family about the need to get money and names were discussed of various persons from whom they could get money. Hinman's name was discussed and the fact that he owned a house and stocks and bonds. On July 26, 1969, Manson told Bailey and Bill Vance that he wanted them to go to Hinman's house and persuade him to join the "family" or sign over all of his property and automobiles. Vance said he had better things to do and walked away. That night at about 6 p.m. Bailey saw Manson talking to Beausoleil and Davis. Beausoleil had a knife (People's exh. 18) and Davis had a nine millimeter Radom gun (People's exh. 30). Subsequent investigation by officers established that Davis had purchased the gun under an assumed name. Bailey saw Brunner and Atkins dressed in dark clothes. Bailey saw Brunner, Atkins, Beausoleil and a fourth unidentified person drive off in {Page 71 Cal.App.3d 14} a ranchhand's car which was driven by the fourth person. Davis was still in the parking lot.

Two nights later Bailey saw Brunner and Atkins drive up to the Spahn Ranch in a Volkswagen microbus which Bailey had previously seen in the possession of Hinman. Bailey went with Brunner in the microbus to a eucalyptus grove on the Spahn Ranch. Bailey observed that there was no key in the microbus and the ignition wires had been wired together. On the seat of the microbus Bailey saw a purse with $27.64 in it. With Bailey's help, Brunner wiped off the microbus. The next morning Bailey saw Hinman's Fiat station wagon at the Spahn Ranch. Later that morning Bailey saw Manson in the presence of about six other people carrying a sword. Bailey testified:

"Charles [Manson] stated that after the phone call had come to the ranch asking for help, he and Bruce Davis had gone to Gary Hinman's house, and he stated at the time that they arrived, Mary [Brunner] and Sadie [Atkins] and Bobby [Beausoleil] had gotten the gun back away from Gary Hinman.

"He stated that he had words with Mr. Hinman, and they had a heated argument, and then it became necessary for him to quiet Gary Hinman down, and he stated that he used a sword and cut Gary Hinman from his left ear down to his chin. ...

"He also said that he had quieted Gary down, and the girls put Gary in bed, and that Mr. Hinman asked for his prayer beads and after that he said that he had left Bobby to finish up. ...

"He said that two or three shots had been fired at the house. He also said that Bobby was foolish to ever let Sadie hold the gun on Mr. Hinman. ...

"He said that all they had gained from going to Gary's house were the two vehicles and around $27."

So we know that EVENTUALLY Ella decided to work with the Man and bring the thing down. After everybody ALREADY had death sentences, mind you!

But not because she was a fine upstanding girl mind you- further on in the appeals statement we get the explanation-

Bailey testified fully that she understood that if she testified truthfully the forgery charges against her would be dropped.

And this Little Pic went to Market

There is a new book just out called DREAM A LITTLE DREAM OF ME- The Life of Cass Elliott.

You can buy it here. We don't get any money from it, but it is a VERY well researched book. Maybe I'll review it later.

Anyway, here is the pertinent stuff from the book for TLB. Pic Dawson is a drug dealing friend of Cass' in the book. He is also mentioned in detail in Sanders and I think the Bug's book.

I'll just point out that a variation of this theory is what I believed actually occurred. No bullshit race war stuff.

But read the excerpt- I just had my assistant type it for you. You will learn from it more than you will from anywhere else today.

In the immediate aftermath of the horrific murders, nobody had any idea who might have committed such violence, nor what their motive might have been. It would be months before the truth was discovered and in the meantime an atmosphere of panic, fear, and paranoia swept through the canyons. The openness and trust that had previously existed, particularly at Cass's, was replaced with suspicion and concern. With the very real possibility that the murderer or murderers might strike again, most of the previously peace-loving musicians and actors lost no time in equipping themselves with some sort of protection whether it was a handgun, a rifle, or a guard dog. As the police began what would turn into months of investigation, they began questioning virtually everyone who had known the victims and, in the absence of a clear motive, almost anyone was open to suspicion. "Weeks went by when no one knew what had happened," recalls Mike Sarne. "And the police interviewed absolutelyimmense feeling of paranoia with everyone having their own little pet theories." everybody – a few times. My phone was tapped. And so from then on there was an

Having regularly played host to some of the less decorous characters on the scene, Cass was subjected to particularly intensive questioning by the police. Apart from having known the victims – which half of Hollywood could have equally claimed – Cass was further implicated by association. When the bodies of the victims had been discovered, the police had found the word PIG blurrily scrawled on the wall of the house in blood. John Phillips had informed the police of the widely circulating theory that what had been written was in fact PIC - in reference to Pic Dawson. Some believed this could directly point to his guilt. Both Dawson and Billy Doyle were known to have been regular guests at Cielo Drive during the summer, and as Dawson was already well known to the police, Cass was once again called in to account for his whereabouts. For all his bravado, Dawson, however, seemed unlikely to have carried out a series of murders of this ferocity. Besides, Cass had no idea where Dawson was, and if she had, it is similarly unlikely she would have told the police.

The other major rumor ricocheting through the Hollywood Hills, which is still cited by many, all these years on, concerned Doyle. It was known at the time that Folger and Frykowski had a penchant for cruising Sunset Strip and bringing home young men. After drugging them, they would tie them up and film them. Some weeks before the murders, as the tale goes, they had a spectacular falling out with Doyle over a business deal gone sour and had decided to exact revenge not only by doing what they usually did to their pick-ups but by flogging him in front of an invited audience. They apparently recorded this on film. The story then goes that when Doyle realized what had happened, he was, according to Monkee Peter Tork, who was living in the canyons at the time, "murderous." Raging, Doyle insisted he would kill Folger and Frykowski. Wary that he might carry out his threat, a similarly macho friend chained him to a tree in Cass's garden to calm him down before hauling him onto a plane out of the country. In the light of Doyle's oft-repeated claims that he had killed a man and his overall hard-core machismo stance, it is easy to understand hoe an episode like this might have been considered sufficient motive for him to have committed the murders. "If they were gonna do that to Billy," says Tork, "they wanted to die! That was death-provoking. It was a murderously dangerously thing to do!"

Eventually, after months of rumor and speculation, both Doyle and Dawson were cleared of suspicion and Charles Manson, a thirty-five-year-old ex-convict, fraud, pimp, and conman with a Jesus fixation, and his "family" of (mostly young and female) followers were revealed as the murderers. Manson had a talent for attracting the young and dispossessed and he had somehow managed to brainwash his acolytes into accompanying him on his nihilistic quest for supposed salvation and power through murder. Manson and his crew had been frequent visitors to Cass's house, taking advantage, like so many others, of the plentiful food, drugs and generally laid-back, hospitable atmosphere. But Cass was not the only one who had played host to him and his acolytes, unaware of what would ensue. Although in the aftermath of the murders, few would admit to any link, many prominent figures in the Los Angeles rock community had not only socialized with Manson and company – particularly his harem of young women, who made themselves readily available to anyone who was interested – but developed closer associations with them. As Neil Young later remembered, "A lot of pretty well-known musicians around L.A. knew Manson, though they'd probably deny it now. The girls were always around too. They'd be right there on the couch with me, singing a song." The Beach Boys' Dennis Wilson in particular had welcomed them into his life and taken steps toward helping Manson in his attempts to obtain a record deal and his subsequent failure to do so was at one point considered a motive for the murders. But prior to that, Manson and his followers would have seemed like no more than yet another of the city's umpteen crews of nomadic hippies, sitting around smoking, playing the odd guitar, and hanging out at other people's houses. There would have been nothing to differentiate them from any other group, and the open-house atmosphere at Woodrow Wilson meant that it was easy for them to wander in and hang out.

Because of Cass's connections to the case, meanwhile, when it finally came to court, she was subpoenaed as a witness, as was John Philips, who was also a good friend of both Polanski and Dennis Wilson. The police had found sheet music to the Mamas and the Papas "Straight Shooter" propped up on the music-holder of the baby-grand piano in the living room of Cielo Drive when the bodies had been found, which seemed to link Phillips to the case. Eventually, as the true facts came to light, Cass and John were both cleared of any involvement.

One Pill Makes You Stupid

The sad little fool to the left is Larry Melton, known to many as White Rabbit. He was not a very well known member of the Family, a fringe player at best. That photo was not taken back in the day but was actually a recent thing. Scary. Allegedly Melton specialized in sex with underage girls. I bet they just flocked to that lovely face.

For some reason I got more than one email asking about him this weekend. Yahoo KTS has someone talking about him and Yahoo Manson and The Family has some argument going on about him.

He shows up briefly in Sander's mess of a book THE FAMILY and is referenced in GoRightly's unsold book THE SHADOW OVER SANTA SUSANA PASS. Most experts in the case, including the Col, don't think much about him because he doesn't know anything, is a fool, and is a waste of time.

The only interesting thing he ever did was take one time Case Expert and one time registered sex offender Bill Nelson and convince him he knew where there were three bodies buried behind Barker Ranch. Likely some of the 35 other murders The Bug keeps accusing the Family of without prosecuting anyone for. So Nellie got the Park Rangers and wasted a lot of time and money to dig up a lot of sand. July 27, 1998.

Nellie's explanation? "We had to." Uh huh. Read about it HERE .

If you wanna see what happens when a loser like Rabbit tries to take on Sandy Good, try here .

The big nothing wherein Nellie "busts" Mrs. Watson is HERE. Ha!

No I don't know where he is nor do I care.

He has managed to fool a lot of fools. Good for him.

He has nothing relevant to add to the study of TLB. Back down the hole Rabbit. The a**hole!


[[Edited- what Nelson said in 1998 about Rabbit ("Snitch") FUNNY STUFF!

THE MANSON SNITCH: It almost seems sacrilege doesn't it? A snitch in the Manson family? But it is true. What has he told me, the Inyo County District Attorney Chief Investigator, the Inyo County Sheriff Office, the Park Rangers? He testified he saw Charles Manson shoot three teenagers, right between the eyes...bam - bam - bam! It was just before the October 10 & 12, 1969 raids at Barker Ranch. The three teens, two boys and one girl, tried to leave the Manson family. After getting about a mile down Golar Wash, Manson sent Bruce Davis after them to bring them back. Manson told the snitch, Susan Atkins and Bruce Davis to dig a hole. When the hole was dug, several feet deep, Bruce Davis said, "That's enough." All three diggers went around the Barker Ranch house and let Manson know the grave was ready. There was a conversation between the three teens and Manson. After Manson shot them, the snitch and Bruce Davis carried the first boy to the grave. Then Bruce and Sadie brought the other boy to the grave and they returned for the girl. All three victims were in the same grave.
The snitch guaranteed me and the Inyo County officials he could lead us to the sight. He changed his mind at the last minute and bailed out on us. Many hours of digging up at Barker, with the Death Valley heat up around 123 degrees.
After the snitch returned to his probation state he told me he got XXX at the cops. "F--- em!" said the snitch. I assure you the law enforcement officials gave him the utmost courtesy during his four day visit to California. He received a free flight. His room was paid for and he got money for meals. They even treated him professionally after they figured out he had bailed on them. The snitch has no right to complain. He chose not to honor his agreement with the Inyo County officials. He even received immunity in writing. All he was required to do was tell the truth. He did not. We were concerned about his safety. Would he be threatened by loyalist of the Manson clam? Could he be killed? Perhaps. We fear for him no longer. The snitch decided to make duplicate prints of his photographs while in California. He has forwarded a set to none other than Sandra Good, better known as Blue. He also did another strange thing. He signed the guest book at Barker Ranch with his given name in the Manson family. If he were afraid for his life, he blew the opportunity to remain safe. PHOTO ALBUM
He was a real member of the Manson family. He even asked the officers who interviewed him if he could change his clothes. He came back with a Manson shirt on. He had also made a new X in his head to honor his visit to California to snitch against Charlie.
He may know about Marina Habe. He claims to know about Doreen Gaul and James Sharp. He does know about Zero and why he was murdered. But he has lost his place as a snitch. He lied. The one thing a snitch has to offer is truth. Take that away, and he gives up his value for information. It did not have to be that way, but as my friend Doris Tate said often, "Once having chosen there is no turning back."
An e-mail writer told me where Cappy and Ansome had moved following the death of T.J. I told the snitch where they are believed to be, and he is transferring his probation from his state to California. It was a costly ordeal to the Inyo County law enforcement officials. They did not deserve it. The snitch even asked me to write Mr. Bugliosi and tell him of his information. I did so, and Mr. Bugliosi called me the night after I returned from Death Valley. I had informed Deputy D.A. Kay at his request too. We were all so hopeful.
Bruce Davis has told his parole boards he would give up any bodies, if he only knew where they were buried. Right Bruce! But it was Clem who gave up the burial site of Shorty, not you.
At the suggestion of a CIW prison official, I wrote Susan Atkins a letter telling her she was implicated in the murder of three more people. Susan claimed during the trial..."There are three people buried behind Barker Ranch about eight feet deep they will never find." It will soon be a week since I mailed that letter to Susan. There has been no response.
Are there other Manson family members out there reading these pages? Why not come forward and break the silence? All you have to be is honest, true, and give up those bodies we all know about. We recognize it will take more than a conversion to Jesus Christ. If that was all it would take, then Bruce, Tex, Susan and Gypsy could have come forward years ago. ]]

Happiness is an Elusive Thing

As I count my blessings (my career, my supermodel wife, my intelligence and education) and look at the poor people left to die by the government in Louisiana I realize just how transitory "Happiness" really it, and just how rare.

I never had my family uprooted to a ghetto.
I never had my mother killed by Germans in a camp.
I never had my wife and unborn son butchered.
I never had my school friend and his girlfriend slaughtered.
I never had to flee in the night from a judge out to use me to further his career.

This is Roman Polanski three days ago at the Venice Film Festival with his wife. He has a new family now. He has a new movie this month. He looks happy.

I hope he is.

How Wistful Little Star It was all So Far...

We got a nice email today that reminded me of why I keep up the fight for truth and justice in this case- because someone has to.

Col,

Hi. I tried to post on your site, but since I don't have a computer
and only have msn tv, I can't create a blog (at least on this blog),
therefore, I can't post on your board. SORRY HON I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT MSN TV BUT I WAS VERY GLAD TO
GET YOUR MESSAGE. I was going to post on your
latest entry, Hughes & Chris Simmons. Was he (Simmons) the one who had
Nelson and some others believe that he was Ouisch and a few other manson
Members, before he was caught and exposed as a fraud? NO THAT WAS "CLARK RONSON WHO TURNED OUT
TO BE A CLOWN CALLED SCOTT NELSON, NO RELATION. CHRIS SIMMONS IS SOMEBODY FOCUSED
PERHAPS TOO MUCH ONLY ON SHARON.


I just wanted to say I am happy to see that you are still around. I
always liked the way you were your own person and were not like most of
the others on the different boards, who more or less followed each
other. FOLLOWERS ARE SHEEP- THIS LEADS TO BUSH'S RE-ELECTION WHICH LEADS TO HIS PAL BEING
MADE HEAD OF FEMA WHICH LEADS TO THOUSANDS DEAD.It;s good to see that you are still stirring things up and making
people think and offering up your opinions on the manson case. THANK YOU. QUESTION EVERYTHING.
THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE.


I also read on one of the posting that GLH says that he is visiting Tex
Watson? Has he said anything about whether he thinks Waston has changed
or if he has befriended him, or is he just playing around with Tex
Watson? Do you think he is telling the truth about actually visiting him
in prison? MY SOURCES INDICATE THAT HE HAS VISITED HIM. ALL OF HIS DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THE
VISITS ON KTS HAVE NOT BEEN BOASTFUL (OR ESPECIALLY INSIGHTFUL). WATSON HAS OF COURSE
CHANGED. I BELIEVE THAT HE HAS DISSASSOCIATED FROM HIS ACTIONS MUCH AS OJ HAS. OTHERWISE,
HOW COULD YOU NOT JUST KILL YOUR OWN SELF AND BE DONE WITH IT? BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER - HE WILL NEVER GET OUT.
I just thought I'd drop you a line and let you know that it is Sooo
refreshing to find and read your blog. Things on the other boards have
gotten SO boring over the past few years. Everyone has split into 2-3
groups from the days of the old Tate/LaBianca board. Fronteras board
became a joke, IT WAS PERHAPS THE FUNNIEST SHIT EVER ON THE INTERNET, WASN'T IT? GOD
REMEMBER THAT CRAZY WOMAN, WHEAT? SHIT I MISS THOSE OLD DAYS (OF LIKE WHAT, 4 YEARS AGO? LOL!)
Gorightly's board more or less died,IT WAS SET UP TO PROMOTE HIS CONFUSING BOOK- BOOK DIED--> BOARD DIED.
as did Jasons, NOT SURE WHICH WAS JASON'S and
Everyone on the other boards have to always agree with each other on
everything, and if someone comes along and disagrees with that board,
instead of having open minds and debating, it's an all out attack on the
person. It's good to see that I can come and read your board and find
good discussions about the case. YOU MISSED MY CRUCIFIXION AT KTS WHEN I ASKED HARD QUESTIONS. IRONICALLY
I GOT A GOOD FRIEND AND DRIVER OUT OF EINTDAVE, WHO THE BIDDIES ALSO DROVE AWAY OVER THERE.


BTW, have you heard from or about, Larry
Melton...aka....Rabbitt...aka....liar... lately?
He seems to be more reluctant in talking about manson or the case. A BIG
change from the old days where he was running off at the mouth all the
time. I was just wondering if you got the same feeling about him. I WAS ASKED ABOUT HIM IN A COMMENT SECTION THIS
MORNING. OF COURSE HE WAS A LIAR. HE KNEW SOME PEOPLE AND WANTED SOME ATTENTION. NO IDEA WHERE HE IS NOR
DO I CARE.


One more thing, How about Nellie? I haven't heard anything about him for
a long time. I didn't think he would ever give up his obsession on the
case. ME NEITHER BUT I AM ASSURED BY DENISE AT KTS (COOL LADY!) THAT NELLIE IS VERY VERY SICK
AND DONE WITH THE CASE. BUT MY HATRED FOR WHAT HE DID TO THE TATES AND TO THIS CASE
AS WELL AS TO THE WATSON CHILDREN...ARGGGH, KARMA IS A BITCH. ANYWAY....I saw one of your posts that alluded to maybe he was really sick
or something. Just curious about that. Anyway, take care. THANKS. I'M NOT GONNA USE YOUR EMAIL OR HANDLE
HERE- I AM GRATEFUL FOR YOUR COMMUNICATION AND GLAD YOU HAVE AT LAST FOUND A PLACE WHERE ALL CAN SPEND TIME AND DISCUSS THE TLB
MYSTERIES, NOT JUST PEOPLE WHO USE GIANT BLUE TYPE OR WHO BELIEVE IN NELSON'S CROCKPOT ZODIAC THEORIES.

I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU ALL BELIEVE- JUST DEFEND IT LOGICALLY. THE FUTURE IS IN YOUR HANDS. ALL OF YOU.

THANKS AGAIN FOR WRITING- KEEP IT UP.

The Bug's Relationship with Reality

Did you know the Bug was sued for one of the many unsubstantiated statements in his landmark book HELTER SKELTER?

The problem I have with the book is that he made shit up so that the only person that looks good in it is him... the cops suck in it...Stovitz his partner sucks... everyone sucks except St. Bug.

He wildly asserts that Charlie et al "may be responsible for up to 35 murders." Then why did he not go and prosecute them all? Doesn't Zero deserve justice? Gaul? Habe? That is, if of course these people WERE responsible.

It's interesting that I found this last night, since Lisa at KTS posted her Friday Case NONFACT. If you read and study HS like you should if you are gonna be here with the Col, it does CLEARLY indicate that a James Forsher was a driver with Hughes to Sespe Hot Springs, where Hughes drowned. It later wildly and incorrectly speculates that Forsher might be the James that was somehow involved in the "Body in the basement" murders, perhaps even the victim, James Willett. Now of course, James Willett was killed because he knew about the robberies of Montfort, Pitman et al. But in HS, BUG clearly states that he thinks these things are related. Because of the "reach" Manson has and all, don't you know.

So Forsher sued BUG. he ultimately lost and on appeal lost too. You can read about it in detail here- it's good reading.

"There is another possibility. It may be that both James and Lauren Willett were killed because they knew too much about still another murder.

"James and Lauren. Something about those first names seemed familiar. Then it connected. On November 27, 1970, a James Forsher and a Lauren Elder drove defense attorney Ronald Hughes to Sespe Hot Springs. After Hughes disappeared, the couple were questioned but not polygraphed, the police being satisfied that when they left the flooded area Hughes was still alive.

"At first I thought 'Elder' might be Lauren Willett's maiden name, but it wasn't. Nor, in checking the police reports and newspaper articles, was I able to find any description of Forsher and Elder. All I did find were their ages, both given as seventeen, and an address, from which I subsequently learned they had long since moved. All other efforts to track them down were unsuccessful.

"It appears unlikely that James Forsher and James Willett were the same person: Willett would have been twenty-four in 1970, not seventeen. {Page 26 Cal.3d 802} But Lauren is a decidedly uncommon name. And, nineteen in 1972, she would have been seventeen in 1970.

"Coincidence? There have been far stranger ones in this case.

"One thing is now known, however. If an admission by one of Manson's most hard-core followers is correct, Ronald Hughes was murdered by the Manson Family."

By way of innuendo appellant alleged: "By publishing the book Helter-Skelter ..., Defendants ... intended that when Helter-Skelter was published the readers thereof would believe that Plaintiff was a participant in the alleged murder of Ronald Hughes, that he was guilty of the crime of murder or the crime of being an accomplice or accessory to murder and that Plaintiff was a member or close associate of the Manson 'Family.' The aforesaid portions of Helter-Skelter, when read in the context of the whole book, were, in fact, understood and believed by numerous readers of Helter-Skelter to mean that Plaintiff was a participant in the alleged murder of Ronald Hughes, that he was guilty of the crime of murder or of the crime of being an accomplice or accessory to murder and that he was a member or close associate of the Manson 'Family.' Said understanding and belief on the part of said readers of Helter-Skelter was reasonably drawn from the aforesaid portions of the book when read in the context of the whole book."

I have to go with Forsher- it reads to me like he is somehow linked, AT LEAST to the Hughes murder- which of course was NOT a murder. In my experience, courts are loathe in the US to go forward with libel cases unless they are crystal clear. I see why they threw it out.

But read the whole transcript. Watch the lying Bug squirm.

( Oh and not nice guy Mark Turner should correct his awesome site here-- they can't have vanished if he sued Bug twice.)

KTS Case Fact

I know, some of you wish I would stop the obsession with the errors of KTS. But after half a month of almost no posts, followed by banal "why aren't they rescuing the kitty cats too?" posts, they finally post something new, a Friday Case Fact...

Did you know....

Ronald Hughes -

As attorney for defendant Leslie Van Houten, Hughes tried to separate the interests of his client from those of Charles Manson. He hoped to show that Van Houten was not acting independently, but was completely controlled in her actions by Manson.

Hughes decision to pursue an independent strategy almost certainly cost him his life. On the last weekend of November, 1970, Hughes disappeared while camping in a remote area near Sespe Hot Springs. His badly decomposed body was not discovered until four months later. Although no one was ever charged with the murder of Hughes, at least two Family members have admitted that the killing of Hughes was a "retaliation murder" by Manson.

Except not a word of it is true. He drowned in an area where there was flash flooding. He was obese and could not get away. NO ONE including Bug still believes he was murdered.

Think logically- if there were retaliation murders why did they stop? Who was retaliated against? Why not kill Bug or Kay?

Why does KTS continue to promote untruth?. This is from a Lisa, but it could just as easily be from that Old Goat Janice.

I mean- have a commitment to your subject!

Sounds Poorly

Wellspring digs deep to find 'Freaky' film

Indie distrib will 'Live' for pic rights

By IAN MOHR


TORONTO -- Indie distrib Wellspring has acquired all North American rights to the stop-motion animation musical-comedy "Live Freaky! Die Freaky!" by John Roecker.

Pic, which features voice work by a number of alt rockers including Green Day's Billie Joe Armstrong, is an outrageous retelling of the Manson family murders, set circa 3069.

Pic was produced through Hellcat Pictures, headed by Tim Armstrong, front man for pop punk band Rancid.

Also lending their voices to the pic are actor-helmer Asia Argento, Lunachick's Theo Kogan, AFI's Davey Havoc, X's John Doe, the Go Go's Jane Wiedlin and members of Good Charlotte and Blink-182.

Songs in the pic were penned by Faith No More and Imperial Teen keyboardist Roddy Bottum.

Wellspring will roll out the film in 2006, focusing on midnight screening slots before a DVD launch.

Pact was brokered by Wellspring's Marie Therese Guirgis and Peter Paterno and Jeff Silberman of King, Holmes, Paterno & Berliner, who repped the producers.

Followup- Monk Speaks!

Agnostic Monk Speaks---

Linda, Linda, Linda! LOL to Col. :)

But actually that is a good question. I would lean towards the drivers license reason for her inclusion (and not because I'm Linda's official P.R. person, more because it sounds like the simplest explanation). There may have been some other folks at the ranch with drivers licenses but maybe they were unavailable for Cielo due to various reasons (wasn't Patricia Krenwinkle trying to sleep off an acid trip that evening when Charlie woke her? Maybe others had been tripping that day and judged too messed up for the mission?)

Being stopped by cops with a licensed driver in the car would be far better than not having a licensed driver in the car (no matter who was driving). And they were of the mindset that if they were stopped they could throw knives and a gun out a passenger window without a cop noticing, most likely they figured switching drivers could be done without the cop noticing, prior to his initial approach towards the car.

But who knows, maybe there are deeper reasons. Weren't there rumors that Tex and Linda had been dealing together?

We could always go by Sandra Good's reason as stated in the Manson documentary (with rifle in hand). Something about Linda had been to the Tate house before so they all got in the car and Linda drove them to the Tate house?



So if you and I are driving drunk today to Magic Mountain Amusement park and they pull me over and I don't have a license I can say "Don't bother me, Mr. Man, because da Monk here has a license."? I don't think so. And that was just drunk driving. Can you imagine Tex, stoned out of his face on speed, saying, hey, don't hassle me, the tiny blonde in the back has a license? Nope, me neither.

That is the point of the post. WHY send Linda? The given reason doesn't compute, and, since she didn't drive, isn't true. Then why?

And to the post that reads that Charlie had been to the house the night before, this isn't true at all either- you are getting that from Tex's Helter Skelter 2004 review. Charlie seems to have been there before with Melcher on at least three occasions, and maybe once while Sharon lived there if you believe the Bug book. Tex didn't know about that visit. That is what he is alluding to. HS 04 is so full of inaccuracies from the first scene (wasn't Brunner at Hinman?) that it could confuse anyone.

Sorry to hear about Nelson. I am sure the families of the twelve year old girls he "massaged", the family of Patti Tate and the family of Steven Parent and Angela Smaldino are praying for him as are Barbara Hoyt and Sandra Good.

Eww Pugh was that You? (Unsolved Vol. 1)

Joel Pugh died in England, his blood on the mirror in his small flat. He was married to Sandra Good.

An article in the nineties states that-

" (Good has never been married, although several of the books about
the Manson family, such as "Helter Skelter," report that she was. A
week after the murders, the Manson group was rounded up and arrested
for possession of stolen dune buggies, the police having no idea that
some of their members had done the killings. Good was pregnant with
Manson's soon and was afraid the authorities would take her baby since
she didn't have a husband. So she lied, saying she was married to a
man named Joel Pugh, a boyfriend she had parted company with when she
met Manson. He later committed suicide in London, says Good.)

(Her son by Manson, now 20, was raised by someone else, and she
never discloses his name or where he lives. They keep in touch.
"He's a good kid," she says simply.)"

Now first off- She had MANSON'S kid? Okay. Never knew that. On the Bertice Berry show she shouts out that she never actually made love to Charlie. That is a clear lie. Did she have his kid? Where is this kid? It is more likely PUGH'S kid.... But I digress....

The Best Damn Manson Site on the web has the only official article on the guy.

I don't know a lot of suicides that slit their throats. The only ones I know hang themselves. But then I don't know a lot of them.

Now the Zodiac/Manson site ( run by a friend of Nelson's so it cannot be vouched for) alleges

"He had also been with the group for a time but had left. He tried to talk Sandra into leaving also, something that was not appreciated by the powers that be in the Family.

This article only gives the surface of the Pugh tragedy. Vincent Bugliosi said that Joel's room was on the ground floor and could be entered through a window. The door was locked from the inside when his body was found. If he was killed and it was made to look like a suicide, the killer could have easily locked the door and left through the window. NO PRINTS WERE EVER TAKEN! Bugliosi brings out that Pugh's throat was cut, twice, as were both wrists and there were many cuts all over his body. Plus, there was a sheet placed over the lower part of his body. Pugh had checked into the Talgarth Hotel on 10/27/69."

AND

"The LAPD detectives got a "secret report" from the State Department saying that Bruce M. Davis had been in England at the time of Pugh's "suicide." Davis returned to the US shortly after this. This was probably due to hearing the bad news of and sudden reversal of fortunes for Manson and other Family members in their trial during December 1969.....The reverse writing with drawings found in Pugh's room is interesting. One was: "Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water. Jack fell down and broke his crown and Jill came tumbling after.""

Again I don't know how accurate this guy can be. But it is interesting. And of course, everybody reports that Bruce Davis was supposedly in England at the time. But then so was a very young Diana...

I'm not gonna draw any point together yet- I got asked a VERY important question by one of our regulars and want to draw things together here first.

So Joel Dean Pugh- whether Sandra's husband (likely) and the actual father of her child (almost for sure his and not Manson's)- he doesn't feel like a suicide. Yet even in the wake of 1969, no further investigation. Why?

More Holiday Musings

In their efforts to ascribe to Manson some sort of supernatural connections, many books and sources claim a link to Scientology. the Process Church and even the O.T.O. This of course amuses me no end. While Charlie clearly borrowed some philosophy from Scientologists he met in prison, the desire to link all the whacked out kooks out there back in the day is pathetic.

From an O.T.O Website:

Before Charles Manson (b. 1935) visited the 'parties' open to outsiders held at Solar Lodge meetings, he had had a rather chequered occult history. He is supposed to have first become interested in Scientology while he was incarcerated at the McNeil Island Penitentiary in Washington (Scientology has prison recruiting programmes). There it is said that Manson received about 150 hours of Scientology counselling. After his release from prison, he went to Los Angeles, where it is claimed that he attended several Scientology events where Hollywood stars were guests, including possibly the dedication ceremony for Scientology's first 'Celebrity Center'. Manson was undoubtedly eager to meet celebrities to further his musical ambitions and find someone to produce his guitar-playing; it is known that he contacted one of the Beach Boys, and Doris Day's son.

There are hints that not long after this he became involved with the Solar Lodge, and may also have had links with 'The Process', a Satanist-oriented group which had originally broken away from Scientology; Scientology itself had early connections with Crowley's O.T.O., in the form of L. Ron Hubbard's association with Jack Parsons.

So what exactly did Manson do in the Solar Lodge? As witnesses have reported (see above), Brayton began putting on "profane parties" to draw in recruits from the public, attracting people to the idea of a special, semi-secret organisation which performed magical rituals, and which involved "sex and strange doings and good drugs and groovy people." About fifty outsiders were involved, including Hollywood figures like Jerry Kay, who had been the art director on the film 'Easy Rider'. Kay left the Solar Lodge around August 1967, having done little more than take the 'Oath of a Probationer' [an A.'.A.'. "degree"]; the one thing he took with him on his departure was a copy of the 'Book of the Law', which he decorated with illustrations, and later sold.

The most famous guest at Brayton's parties was Manson, who, like Brayton, believed he was the reincarnation of Aleister Crowley.

The scandals surrounding the Solar Lodge happened at the same time as the Manson 'Family' was committing the murders of Sharon Tate and her friends - seven people in all - in August 1969; and both sets of events took place within a few miles of each other. This, and the similar occult backgrounds of Manson and Brayton, made the tabloid press leap to the conclusion that there must be a direct connection between the Manson murders, and the O.T.O.'s 'boy in the box' scandal - a highly tenuous connection, to say the least.

But there is one more dependable, if unusual link between the characteristics of the 'Family and Brayton's Solar Lodge, and other O.T.O. groups. One member of Manson's 'Family' called Robert (or Bobby) Beausoleil lived together with celebrated underground film-maker and occultist Kenneth Anger. Before he became embroiled in the Manson affair, Beausoleil had acted the rôle of Lucifer in Anger's film 'Lucifer Rising'. While imprisoned as a result of the murders, Beausoleil occupied his time in composing a musical score for the film. Kenneth Anger was also instrumental in founding Anton LaVey's 'Church of Satan' - and LaVey played the rôle of Satan in Roman Polanski's film 'Rosemary's Baby'; Sharon Tate, one of the Manson murder-victims was Polanski's wife.

Let's all say this together shall we? "Charlie Manson was a five foot two prison bitch who had been in prison more than he had been out. He knew psychological games he learned in jail. He had no coherent philosophy at all. He never thought he was the reincarnation of anyone. He didn't borrow from various other groups- many groups at the time shared a belief in the end times. This kind of bullshit gives Charlie WAY more influence and power over the Sixties and his 'Family' than he ever had."

Omitted Twice

In addition to the definitive book reviews we have started here at TLB Blog we are also gonna do some cool film reviews. But I was just noticing while watching the new THE MANSON FAMILY DVD that at the Hinman house, Mary Brunner's presence is completely left out. Same with that shit-bad HELTER SKELTER remake last year. It is weird because her immunity seems to extend to Motion Pictures.

From her successful appeal-

"In December 1969 and March 1970 at Eau Claire, Wisconsin, Brunner met representatives of the Los Angeles County Sheriff and the Los Angeles {Page 32 Cal.App.3d 911} District Attorney, who offered her immunity from prosecution in return for her testimony relating to the Hinman murder. In April 1970 Brunner appeared in Los Angeles before the grand jury and at the trial of Robert Beausoleil for the Hinman murder, and testified that in July 1969 she, Denise Atkins, and Robert Beausoleil had held Hinman captive in his house in Malibu for three days, beaten him, stabbed him, and finally smothered him; that during part of Hinman's ordeal, Charles Manson with a sword and Bruce Davis with a knife had been present in the house. As a consequence of her testimony Beausoleil was convicted of the Hinman murder.

In May 1970 Beausoleil moved for a new trial, offering an affidavit by Brunner which said in part: "Everything I testified to at the Robert Beausoleil trial, and the Grand Jury was not true and did not happen as so testified." At the hearing on Beausoleil's motion, Brunner first said her affidavit was true. She then recanted and said her testimony before the grand jury and at the trial was true. The court denied the motion for a new trial.

In March 1971 Brunner testified at the penalty phase of the trial of Manson, Atkins, Leslie Van Houten, and Patricia Krenwinkel for the Tate-La Bianca murders. She denied participation in the Hinman murder.

In August 1971 Brunner testified at the trial of Manson for the Hinman murder. She again denied participation in the murder and disclaimed any knowledge of participation by Manson. Under further questioning about the murder, she invoked her privilege against self-incrimination. The prosecution then introduced the testimony implicating Manson that she had given at the Beausoleil trial, and Manson was convicted of the Hinman murder.

In September 1971 the grand jury indicted Brunner for the Hinman murder."

Can't seem to make up her mind, our Mother Mary.