Saturday, March 18, 2006

The House at the End of the Drive


WHAT DO WE REALLY KNOW ABOUT THE FAMILY AND 10050?

1- Charlie did come visiting before the Tates moved in.
2- Charlie did come at least once AFTER the Tates moved in. Hatomi the photographer confirms this.
3- Bug and Watkins both claim that Charlie knew that Melcher and Bergen had moved out... but I don't trust anything either of them say.
4- Watson NOW says Charlie was up there the day before the killings. I don't believe this.
5- Rudi Altobelli, a show business agent owned the house. For all you homophobes out there who jumped up my ass when I supposedly outed Parent, Altobelli was and is as gay as gay can be. It doesn't matter, except when examining Garrettson and Parent's reasons for being at the house.
6- Sharon was not supposed to be staying there the night she was killed. Her car was in the shop and not in the driveway that night.
7- The girls did visit and swim in the pool back when Terry lived there.
8- I believe Charlie did visit later that night AFTER the murder with Bruce and Clem and Nancy.
9- If the Family DID have ties to Voytek it is a bit too coincidental for my liking that he just happened to be staying at that house.
10- IF (and a big IF) Charlie did tell Tex to kill everyone up there, I find it impossible to believe they MISSED the caretaker.


Here is what I am missing and if I can find this then every piece of the jigsaw snaps into place... what is the connection between VOYTEK and MELCHER?

There is NO DOUBT in my mind that Charlie believed Terry still lived there. Think about it? He had visited this amazing house (the Col went a dozen times before the tear down)- do you think Terry commented to the wannabe musician "I am just renting?" Even if there were different "pigs" there when he visited, why would he think Terry did NOT own it? And if one of those pigs was a drug dealer who had wronged him or a member of the Family..... kaboom, TLB starts.

But I must admit- though I do believe there is a connection I have not found it.

I just don't believe in coincidences... why THAT house? Sharon was NOT the target (indeed, they probably now wish she was never there, since her death insures their eternal infamy). The fact that it was at a house that they had all been to before.... no, there is a link. There has to be.

693 comments:

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catscradle77 said...

Didnt Dean Morehouse once stay there for a few weeks as well???

catscradle77 said...

And, I dont believe Billy the caretaker was just missed...I may pay him a visit..if I can get anything from his frazzled brain..he obviously today has issues...

Salem said...

Cat
I posted it 3 times but guess someone didnt read.Mooreshouse did live there. Ya the people from the ranch partied and swam in the pool.
as for CM knowing Mechler was there, Charlie Knew Melcher had moved out, It's why linda and Tex went and got money from melcher at the studio and Meclcher sent them to VF.( to double thier money)
But VF ripped them off.
we all know what happened.well 3 of us here anyways;)
ya Billy wasnt just MISSED.He just wasnt in the HOUSE!
owooeoeooowooeee;)
Was know big secret what VF was doing.
geeesh some people huh?

RichSpeck said...

I've read stories that a Hollywood friend of Sebring raced over to his place to clean it right after the murder.

Looking into this might open things up.

It strikes as a possible angle connecting Hollywood (Melcher et al). If I was investigating the Melcher connection or the murders in general, thats where I would focus (other than the bullshit story from the caretaker).

Sebring was tied to a big web of Hollywood from his business. If he wasn't tied directly to Melcher, he cut Melcher's friends hair. Hollywood was and is small. Drugs being so casual back then maybe it was part of the business. Drugs were exchanged by everybody. Some were in it heavy or casual. A hairstyle and a snort? Or your drugs for tonite kinda thing?

A place to look for your connection, Col?

CreequeAlley said...

VF was likely the target. The others were simply there.

If VF was dealing dope, he could have supplied lots of people, including CM, Watson, or even Terry Melcher (I don't know that Melcher was heavy into dope, but a lot of people were in those days). Drug dealers sometimes make enemies...

Audio Magic said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
CreequeAlley said...

I don't know how to get to the chat room.

Skyhook said...

The Col' said, "I believe Charlie did visit later that night AFTER the murder with Bruce and Clem and Nancy."

Please tell us Col. Why do you believe this?

shoresendz said...

Watson’s lying about Manson being at Cielo the day before the murders. It seems logistically impossible. 1st: On August 7th, it is confirmed that Manson was in Oceanside, CA, as he received a citation at 4:15P there. 2nd: Manson was in the 24-hour-a-day company of Stephanie Schram (sp?) from August 4-8th. According to Stephanie’s testimony, they stopped at Spahn on August 6 and left again on August 7th (before Bobby’s arrest) and then did not return to Spahn until the afternoon of August 8th. Stephanie’s testimony seems truthful. So if Manson had gone anywhere near Cielo, I think she would have testified to it.

Skyhook said...

Col, if I may add to your list, it perhaps goes without saying that, the Cielo murderers went to the house with the sole intention of murder. Otherwise, why kill Parent in the driveway?

Salem said...

Otherwise, why kill Parent in the driveway?

because Parent could identify the people in the car that night as he had seen them before at Roman's house. I think Parent had visited Billy more times than ONCE and was privy as to who came and went at the mainhouse , Billy knew, he went up there when some of the so call Family were swimming in the pool.

Salem said...

As for the guy posting pics of Sandy and Lynn..
thats about as close as ya will ever get to them!!!
CHOW

Salem said...

Watson’s lying about Manson being at Cielo the day before the murders. It seems logistically impossible. 1st: On August 7th, it is confirmed that Manson was in Oceanside, CA, as he received a citation at 4:15P there. 2nd: Manson was in the 24-hour-a-day company of Stephanie Schram (sp?)

yes
thanks for the post.
also cm says he had a ticket (aug 8th 1969)*traffic* that disappeared and the officer was sent East and retired. Ticket was in Nevada.

Skyhook said...

Salem said, "because Parent could identify the people in the car that night..."

Exactly! If the three murderers had not already decided to kill the house occupants, then Parent would have been spared.

60skid said...

The Col' said, "I believe Charlie did visit later that night AFTER the murder with Bruce and Clem and Nancy."

Please tell us Col. Why do you believe this?

Charlie did go to the house after the murders..but Nancy was the not the girl who went.

Skyhook said...

60skid said: "Charlie did go to the house after the murders..but Nancy was the not the girl who went."

Ok... but how do you know this?

Heaven said...

Skyhook said...
60skid said: "Charlie did go to the house after the murders..but Nancy was the not the girl who went."

Ok... but how do you know this?


I was going to ask the same question lol

60skid said...

Skyhook said...
60skid said: "Charlie did go to the house after the murders..but Nancy was the not the girl who went."

Ok... but how do you know this?


I was going to ask the same question lol

I do not want to sound like Savage here. But I
I promiced not to tell how I know this. I should have never said anything. I am sorry I did.

Heaven said...

It's ok 60skid...

I never believed Nancy was there anyway

=)

shoresendz said...

Col, besides what you posted, is there another reason you have such a strong belief that Manson thought Melcher still lived at Cielo? If not, I think you’re wrong (and beg you to prove me wrong). We at least know that when Manson visited Cielo in March that Altobelli and Hatami told Manson that Melcher didn’t live there anymore, and Altobelli told Manson he didn’t know where Terry was. So, why would Manson believe Melcher still lived there? And, if Manson had them scouting the house enough to know that Sharon’s car wasn’t there and that she wasn’t suppose to be there, then it seems they would know that Melcher wasn’t there.

I don’t find it coincidental that Manson and or Watson chose Cielo. Here’s why. First, I think the assumption that Manson and Watson had never crossed the Polanski’s path before the murders is a wrong assumption. Let’s remember that the music industry at the time was very open and everyone knew everyone, as you quoted Eddi Fiegel, quoting Neil Young, "A lot of pretty well-known musicians around L.A. knew Manson, though they'd probably deny it now. The girls were always around too. They'd be right there on the couch with me, singing a song."

Sharon and Roman were also mingling with the music crowd, including Melcher and they must have been to at least ONE of Melcher’s parties. Why? Because when Sharon found out Cielo was going to be up for lease, it is quoted, “Sharon had always liked the house.” Well, in order for her to have an opinion of the house, she had to have been there on at least one occasion prior to Melcher moving out.

I don’t buy Woytek being the target. Too easy, plus the police could never prove that Woytek was a dealer, and they wanted to real bad. If anyone has direct evidence of Woytek being a dealer, I’ll make an immediate retract. Even Billy Doyle (I know, who believes a drug dealer) said, “The fact of Woytek being a drug dealer is like me walking on the moon. First of all, he barely spoke any English, he was so thoroughly out of touch with that type of thing that he couldn’t have sold any drugs, he wouldn’t have even know where to go and buy any.” Now, maybe Doyle is lying to save his own butt, but he sure jumped to Woytek’s defense throughout that entire interview with the police, even saying, “I loved Woytek.” Which is a heck of a lot more than Woytek’s longtime Polish buddy Polanski has ever said about him. In fact, for the most part, Polanski only has negative things to say about Woytek, about the nicest thing Polanski says in his polygraph or book for that matter is, “He really loved me, that guy.” What a cocky asshole.

I believe the missing link is that (And, I know you disagree, Col), Roman was the target. Now before all you Roman sympathizers jump down my back about him being a victim, I’m not saying Roman put a hit out on his wife. What I’m saying is that the guy was such an ass, (and 90% of Hollywood would agree) that he pissed off someone, and whoever that someone was is the real mastermind behind the Cielo murders. Manson and Watson just did the dirty work. I think the missing puzzle piece is who did Manson, Watson, and Polanski have in common as a friend?

ColScott said...

I think the missing puzzle piece is who did Manson, Watson, and Polanski have in common as a friend?

Altobelli?
John Phillips?

60skid said...

You are forgetting Michele Phllips who hang at the ranch and dated both Roman and Melcher and was married to John

catscradle77 said...

Didnt Manson help snag the telescope at Melcher's new house too, before the murders? And who was it that made the phone call from the Polanski residence to the Ranch the morning of the murders?

Yepyep said...

"And who was it that made the phone call from the Polanski residence to the Ranch the morning of the murders?"

Oh no! That evil wench Linda Kasabian again!!

CreequeAlley said...

It's highly unlikely that a phone call was made from the Tate residence to the ranch, especially on the night/morning of the murders. The police would've checked the telephone records for sure, and had that information early on.

CreequeAlley said...

Not to say the police didn't botch the investigation. They had one of the murder weapons in custody fairly early, when that kid found the Buntline on the embankment, but failed to make the connection for a long time. It took a TV news crew to find the discarded clothes.

catscradle77 said...

Abby's family paid out big bucks to keep things under wraps

Heaven said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Heaven said...

CreequeAlley said...
It's highly unlikely that a phone call was made from the Tate residence to the ranch, especially on the night/morning of the murders. The police would've checked the telephone records for sure, and had that information early on.

7:49 AM


A call was placed from Spahn ranch to Cielo drive on the morning of August 8th.
I have a copy of the police/investigation reports that confirm it.

CreequeAlley said...

Heaven said:

Yes there was.. I have a copy of the police reports that say one was placed.

Placed when exactly?

Supposedly, Tex clipped the telephone wires before the murders took place. Unless he clipped the wrong wires, or didn't clip them at all, or there was a second telephone number extension...

Or, a call was placed from the guest house.... hmmm....

Heaven said...

CreequeAlley said...
Not to say the police didn't botch the investigation. They had one of the murder weapons in custody fairly early, when that kid found the Buntline on the embankment, but failed to make the connection for a long time. It took a TV news crew to find the discarded clothes.

7:52 AM


You're going mostly by Bugliosi's book Helter Skelter. Not everything pertaining to the case was written in there. In fact, he left quite a bit out.....

catscradle77 said...

Thank you Heaven-and it was the morning of the murders-before the phone lines were cut...

Heaven said...

CreequeAlley said...
Heaven said:

Yes there was.. I have a copy of the police reports that say one was placed.

Placed when exactly?

Supposedly, Tex clipped the telephone wires before the murders took place. Unless he clipped the wrong wires, or didn't clip them at all, or there was a second telephone number extension...

Or, a call was placed from the guest house.... hmmm....

8:07 AM


Call was placed in the morning hours of August 8th 1969. The murders didn't start until almost midnight....
Tex hadn't cut the wires the morning of the murders.

No, the call was placed from Spahn to Cielo....

Heaven said...

catscradle77 said...
Thank you Heaven-and it was the morning of the murders-before the phone lines were cut...

8:10 AM


Yuppers.....

=)

CreequeAlley said...

OK, a call was placed from Spahn to Cielo on the morning of the 8th.

Why in the world didn't the police follow up on that piece of info?

It seems that that would be of supreme importance in a murder investigation.

Except in the case of many serial killers that do pick victims at random, the killer(s) almost always know the vitim(s). That's murder investigation 101.

catscradle77 said...

because alot was covered up due to the "status" of who was involved...Peter Folger spent 1/2 mil back then to keep things quiet...just imagine what else was done and spent to keep holywood out of it...

Heaven said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Heaven said...

I believe the call was placed between 10AM and 11AM.. Just about the time ole Manson was arriving back from his little trip....

I'll always believe it was Manson calling Voyteck...
I could be wrong, but it's the only thing that makes sense...

Also, there was talk of a white van parked outside Cielo for several days.. Neighbors reported dune buggies driving up and down the road...

Wonder why Bugliosi never put that in his book either.

60skid said...

Heaven said...
CreequeAlley said...
OK, a call was placed from Spahn to Cielo on the morning of the 8th.

Why in the world didn't the police follow up on that piece of info?

Not THAT is a damn good question. The police completely screwed this case up from the moment they arrived on the scene...

They had a bloody thumbprint belonging to Tex on the botton of the main gate. So what do they do, they frigging press it, forever ruining the print.


The police did not follow thru ..because it did not fit in to The Helter Skelter fairy tail.
Plus like Cat said Abby Folger dad paid a lot to shut up people.

Heaven said...

CreequeAlley said...
OK, a call was placed from Spahn to Cielo on the morning of the 8th.

Why in the world didn't the police follow up on that piece of info?

Now THAT is a damn good question. The police completely screwed this case up from the moment they arrived on the scene...

They had a bloody thumbprint belonging to Tex on the botton of the main gate. So what do they do, they frigging press it, forever ruining the print.

Heaven said...

60skid said
The police did not follow thru ..because it did not fit in to The Helter Skelter fairy tail.
Plus like Cat said Abby Folger dad paid a lot to shut up people.

It doesn't surprise me...
I'm sure a few people were paid to shut up...

Look what the police did with the elusive little black book belonging to Leno... They made it completely disappear....

60skid said...

Heaven,
It doesn't surprise me...
I'm sure a few people were paid to shut up...

Look what the police did with the elusive little black book belonging to Leno... They made it completely disappear....

Yes they did plus The Bug lies in his book about Sharons Dog. I always wonder about the 2 dogs in that house the night of the murders. Where is their paw prints ?

CreequeAlley said...

Well, I had never heard of this phone call before.

One could come to the conclusion the call was made from CM to VF in order to get some dope. Or maybe it was the other way around. VF buying from CM.

From there you could jump to another comclusion: The killers were going up there to get dope but didn't really have money to buy, so they intended to kill everyone there to silence them, for dope and whatever money was there. Or, they went up there to "sell" expecting there to be a lot of money in the house. IOW, to rob, and intended on siliencing the victims.

Sounds kinda simplistic though.

Salem said...

Now THAT is a damn good question. The police completely screwed this case up from the moment they arrived on the scene...

They had a bloody thumbprint belonging to Tex on the botton of the main gate. So what do they do, they frigging press it, forever ruining the print.

the Cops hid or destroyed evidence too i think.

CreequeAlley said...

Supposedly, earlier in the week of the murders, there was some kind of party at Cielo, where some guy was beaten up or whipped, or something. I don't remember the details, but I remember something about that.

I wonder if that had anything to do with what happened later in the week?

Salem said...

Wonder why Bugliosi never put that in his book either.

he wove a Horror story heaven.
To be famous.well infamous in my book!

Heaven said...

Sharon had only been home from Europe for two weeks and during that time, things were pretty quiet around Cielo...

Her family came and went and she entertained small groups of friends...

Any trouble that went on happened before she had come home...

I think the issue you are referring too, happened in July...

Jay threw a business party at Cielo (with permission of Roman and Sharon).... Some drunks crashed the party and Voyteck threw them out... They were pretty pissed off and said something coming back to kill him...

Whoever they were, they were ruled out of the murders. The police found them, questioned them and that was the end of it....

The killers weren't there with the intention to buy dope. They were there with the intention to kill, period... I believe it was all because of a drug burn involving Voyteck and Manson....

There was all kinds of dope found still on the property after the murders. Jay Sebring has 3 grams of Cocaine in his car.... Betcha that was worth a pretty penny in 1969...

Heaven said...

Salem said...
Wonder why Bugliosi never put that in his book either.

he wove a Horror story heaven.
To be famous.well infamous in my book!


It's too bad too.. Maybe if Bugliosi had actually investigated the "true" reasons, the story would make much better sense. And who knows, maybe bigger names would be sharing the cells with these people....

RichSpeck said...

Heaven said,

"There was all kinds of dope found still on the property after the murders. Jay Sebring has 3 grams of Cocaine in his car.... Betcha that was worth a pretty penny in 1969... "

Not that much as I remember. A gram of coke was maybe fifty bucks?
Whatever, it was definately not a pretty penny. The amount of drugs and their worth at Cielo was minimal. Strictly user, not dealer quantities.

If Voyteck was holding a substantial dealing amount of dope it wasn't at Cielo.

Maybe the stash was up the road at Sebring's house and cleaned by Steve (the cleaner) McQueen.

Deb said...

What kind of information would Peter Folger have paid to keep secret? That his daughter was addicted to drugs? Lots of people were using drugs in the late 1960s. I am just starting to find out how much information Bugliosi kept out of Helter Skelter but what was so bad about Abigail Folger that people had to be bought off?

Heaven said...

RichSpeck said...
Heaven said,

"There was all kinds of dope found still on the property after the murders. Jay Sebring has 3 grams of Cocaine in his car.... Betcha that was worth a pretty penny in 1969... "

Not that much as I remember. A gram of coke was maybe fifty bucks?
Whatever, it was definately not a pretty penny. The amount of drugs and their worth at Cielo was minimal. Strictly user, not dealer quantities.

If Voyteck was holding a substantial dealing amount of dope it wasn't at Cielo.

Maybe the stash was up the road at Sebring's house and cleaned by Steve (the cleaner) McQueen.


Well, I was only 3 in 1969 so I hadn't developed my coke habit yet LOL

When I was a teenager in the mid to late 80's, an 8-ball (3.5 grams) was over $2000.00

So thats why I assumed it was expensive in 1969...

=)

RichSpeck said...

Heaven said,

"So thats why I assumed it was expensive in 1969...

=) "



From your reading or knowledge do you know anything that would suggest a dealer amount of drugs found at Cielo? That is the point not the cost.

I've always read only small amounts were found.

RichSpeck said...

Deb Morris said,

"What kind of information would Peter Folger have paid to keep secret?"

I would guess anything. The coffee business would want to avoid any involvement.

RichSpeck said...

From this I was fairly close:

Volsky added details concerning the economics of cocaine smuggling–– details reminiscent of the heroin smuggling market described in Part I. Pure cocaine, he was informed by Wilbur Underwood of the Bureau of Customs, can be purchased in Latin America for $3,000 to $5,000 per kilogram (2.2 pounds). After importation, it is diluted or cut so that one gram of pure cocaine produces 16 kilograms of "street" cocaine. The street cocaine, Underwood told Volsky, is sold at $50 a gram. Thus the 900 kilograms of pure cocaine supposed to have been smuggled into the United States in 1969 represented 14,400 kilograms of street cocaine worth $50,000 per kilogram, or–– if those Bureau of Customs figures are to be believed * –– $720,000,000.

Heaven said...

RichSpeck said...
Heaven said,

"So thats why I assumed it was expensive in 1969...

=) "



From your reading or knowledge do you know anything that would suggest a dealer amount of drugs found at Cielo? That is the point not the cost.

I've always read only small amounts were found.

It really depends on how much you personally consider small. I know that by today's standards, 3 grams of Coke would be quite a find..

I know that they found 6.9 grams of Marijuana in the Tate living room, which is also a pretty good amount for personal use. Most dealers sell it by the gram, so you could make 6 sales out of it...

30 Grams of hash was found, that's quite a bit.. You could definitely deal that out...

It just kinda surprises me that the killers didn't take this decent amount of free dope laying around...

Even by today's standards, all that would be worth taking.... Even just for personal use...

Heaven said...

It really wouldn't be dealer worthy, but most definitely, it would get most of the family high for a few days.. The 3 grams of Coke wouldn't go far between all of them though....

But 6.9 grams of grass and 30 grams of hash would have it's personal value....

RichSpeck said...

Heaven said,

"But 6.9 grams of grass and 30 grams of hash would have it's personal value...."

30 grams of hash could be a small time dealer stash back then.

6.9 grams of grass is three to six joints depending on how you roll.

Those are user/party quantities.

Heaven said...

Oh, you know what I'm doing wrong? I'm forgetting that we used to by our weed in ounces, not grams...

You're right, 6.9 grams wouldn't be much at all..

It's been so long since I've bought weed, I no longer know the going rate. I do know that one thing hasn't changed, the price of any drug depends on how lucrative the area is...

If there's not a lot of busts, then it's plentiful, the cost stays down.. But if busts are ramped and the supply is limited, the price goes way up...

But I can honestly say that in my drugging days, if I had been there at the Tate house, I would have taken the drugs...
Even if they were just for my own personal use, I would have snagged them...

I can understand them not taking the Coke, that was out in Sebrings car... But it just seems odd that they only left with $70.00..

I dunno, maybe it's just me....

Heaven said...

Ah yes, flashback, 1985... We used to call a gram of weed a "dimebag" because it only cost ten bucks...

Dealers here stopped selling dimebags and only started selling by the ounce....

RichSpeck said...

Heaven said,

"But I can honestly say that in my drugging days, if I had been there at the Tate house, I would have taken the drugs...
Even if they were just for my own personal use, I would have snagged them...

I can understand them not taking the Coke, that was out in Sebrings car... But it just seems odd that they only left with $70.00..

I dunno, maybe it's just me.... "

Ok. If it was laying around I understand you would pick it up. But in the middle of killing everybody, you would look for it?

Not likely.

Heaven said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Heaven said...

No, you're right. I wouldn't go looking for it during all the chaos...

But if I saw it sitting there on my way out, I would have taken it....

But, I guess the killers probably just wanted to get outta Dodge... With all the shots and screams, I'm sure they wanted to get out of there as quickly as possible...

RichSpeck said...

Heaven said,

"I wouldn't go looking for it during all the chaos..."

Oh, yes, LOL. If I saw a couple hundred tabs of MDA or a bag of weed on a dresser? Yes.

Would I have ever grabbed it.

Heaven said...

No doubt!!

=)

ColScott said...

Savage
BE Savage and have some pride in your posts no matter how bizarre or lame they might be
STOP DELETING YOUR POSTS- either have the sac to stand behind your shit or don't post them.

catscradle77 said...

How do we know exactly what ws taken-the only word we would have would be of those who were there-Tex made a second round before he left-who knows what he took..and the return trip to the house by others that night-who knows what they scooped up..maybe after what they took, what ws left was of little consequence?

catscradle77 said...

Also, wasn't Abby seeing a shrink daily? Would be interesting to know what she thought of her life-and what caused her to see a shrink daily...wonder if he was ever questioned..and wonder if his files were looked through...the break-up or problems with Voy dont seem enough to cause a daily visit...

Yepyep said...

I can imagine that her job as a social worker might be a reason for her daily visits to a shrink. You're confronted with a lot of misery in such a job, I imagine.

Skyhook said...

YepYep said...

I can imagine that her job as a social worker might be a reason for her daily visits to a shrink.

What is the world coming to?

I deal with severely disadvantaged people every day in my profession. I don't have the time to have psychological problems and if I did, I certainly wouldn't have time to see a shrink!

Most of us just soldier on with our work. Usually only the rich seem to have the time and/or inclination to get their head examined.

Yepyep said...

Well I'm basing my assumption on my niece's experiences, who works as a nurse in the ER. She and the others in her team regularly get trauma counseling because of the stuff they have to deal with.

Of course what she deals with is worse than what you see as a social worker but hey, if you're vulnerable to other's people's misery - why not?

But you probably already gave the right answer: Abby was rich so she had plenty of time and money to get her head examined. And isn't it tres chique in Hollywood to be able to throw in 'my shrink says...' in a conversation? ;)

Pristash said...

No disrepsect, people, but it's time to pony up some proof about what we say we "know"

Col: where has Tex said he now belives CM was at Cielo the day before the murders?

Heaven: chapter and verse, please, about that telephone call from Spahn to Cielo...is the report online? If not, can you scan it in...at least quote what it says, who wrote it, when it's dated, etc....?

Me: somebody help me here, but didn't Tex admit that he thought Steve Parent was the caretaker and that is why the guesthouse was only given a cursory look?

Heaven said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Heaven said...

Pristash said...
No disrepsect, people, but it's time to pony up some proof about what we say we "know"

Col: where has Tex said he now belives CM was at Cielo the day before the murders?

Heaven: chapter and verse, please, about that telephone call from Spahn to Cielo...is the report online? If not, can you scan it in...at least quote what it says, who wrote it, when it's dated, etc....?


The call is documented in many books.. You're just going to have to pick them up and start reading...
The report is not online. It was from the investigation reports taken from the police....

As for Tex, it's on his website.

Everything is documented somewhere, you just have to find it...

Pristash said...

Yes, it is on Tex's website, however I think he may be confused and was thinking of the March incidents with Altobelli and the photographer...

As for the other thing, yes I have read about the phone call, but have yet to see any concrete proof, so that's like believing the Cary Grant story in GoRightly or lots of the other stuff in Sanders book...

See, there is plenty of objective evidence that points to someone disturbing the crime scene at Tate later that night...so if not Manson, then who? But the phone call thing from Spahn...unless that can be DOCUMENTED, then it's just another urban legend...Believe me, the police can, do and indeed did screw up this investigation, but the phone call thing would have been just too basic not to have been discovered and followed up on almost immediately.

Salem said...

but the phone call thing would have been just too basic not to have been discovered and followed up on almost immediately.

not when it would connect these *hippie types to a Hollywood home.
Hevan forbid the Cops would let out that ifo, it would tarnish the names of people living there at Roman's house.
why ya think abby's realatives paid people off to get the media off of her???

Salem said...

To The Col
do you ever play yahoo pool?

Heaven said...

It is documented. Go buy some of the police investigative reports. It's all right there....

I have it and have read it many times...

As for it being followed up on, I have no idea... The report doesn't state one way or another.

The police got the Spahn Ranch phone recods and made two notations, one call being placed to Cielo the morning of the murders and another called placed to Dennis Wilsons' private line, on September 22 1969...
Wilson had the number disconnected the next day...

The phone records exist, they just didn't make into any book..... yet

=)

Heaven said...

I think that a lot of things disappeared once the killers were captured.

A little black book disappeared like a fart in the wind...

Something like phone records could easily be tossed aside and forgotten about.

Bugliosi never used it in the trial, so who needed to hang on to it?

Salem said...

Heaven said...
I think that a lot of things disappeared once the killers were captured.


so true Heaven.
so did alot of people .
Have a nice day:)

Pristash said...

Ok, why does Mark Turner have the Wilson phone call from Spahn that Heaven alluded to listed in his timeline, but not the one the day before the murders?

Who would have called Wilson that late in September? Who was left at Spahn, most everybody else was out at Barker by then?

Heaven said...

"Ok, why does Mark Turner have the Wilson phone call from Spahn that Heaven alluded to listed in his timeline, but not the one the day before the murders?"

I dunno, maybe he's never seen the documentation.


"Who would have called Wilson that late in September? Who was left at Spahn, most everybody else was out at Barker by then?"

Could have been anyone, probably Manson himself...

=)

Skyhook said...

heaven said "Everything is documented somewhere, you just have to find it..."

Where is it reliably documented that Manson and others returned to the Cielo crime scene later that night?

Heaven said...

The right people are behind bars, with or without a phone call being in any of the books....

What I'd like to see written down somewhere is this fairytale about Voyteck raping Linda.. To me, THAT would be a big deal....

=)

Heaven said...

Skyhook said...
heaven said "Everything is documented somewhere, you just have to find it..."

Where is it reliably documented that Manson and others returned to the Cielo crime scene later that night?

1:03 PM


Depends on what you believe to be reliable..

But it's documented in Manson's book In His Own Words.. Page 207, second paragraph....

=)

catscradle77 said...

Ummm...Manson in Nuel Emmons words...lol..

Heaven said...

I know who the author is...

Like I said, it depends on who each person feels is "reliable"..

Manson said he went back and left the glasses as a false clue.. I've always believed he went back anyway...

I think there's more than enough evidence to suggest he did. Simply cause Bugliosi didn't follow thru on it, doesn't mean it didn't happen....

=)

Heaven said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Heaven said...

There are other books that discuss it...

Sharon Tate And The Manson Murders
Shadow Over Santa Suzana
My Life With Charles Manson
The Family

It's just a matter of finding out which version fits what sounds right to each person...

Tex has also confirmed that Manson went back... It really wasn't a secret.

Stephanie testified that Manson left after Tex and the girls came back and didn't return until after sunrise..

Paul Watkins testified that he was asked to go, but declined...

Cielo Drive neighbors reported hearing loud arguing just before dawn....

Lots of things to suggest he did...

=)

Salem said...

Ok, why does Mark Turner have the Wilson phone call from Spahn that Heaven alluded to listed in his timeline, but not the one the day before the murders?

go ask ALICE, WHEN S HES TEN FOOT TALL!

Salem said...

Who would have called Wilson that late in September? Who was left at Spahn, most everybody else was out at Barker by then?

maybe they didnt have a phone at barkers???????
ask NT.
he knows so much*

Salem said...

sorry i meant MT ak Nark Turner.
duh Mark even! LOL

Salem said...

pristash
Believe me, the police can, do and indeed did screw up this investigation, but the phone call thing would have been just too basic not to have been discovered and followed up on almost immediately.

and why didnt VF call the cops when he KNEW he had pissed off Tex after the drug burn???? VF must have known he had himself in a jam!
Becuz of his sorry ass and his freakin drugs and deals, maybe NONE of this would have ever happened.

catscradle77 said...

ROFLMAO Salem...Nark Turner-a legend in his own mind...

catscradle77 said...

But ssssshhhh dont say that-a movie producer may be here...ROFLMAO... ;)

catscradle77 said...

Heaven, I was just saying that one can tell that Emmons rephrased stuff and that the words in that book ain't Charlie's...whether or not he said certain things-I don't know..but if ya watch video footage of stuff-Charlie says hell yeah there was a black book...starts to talk about the Frenchman (Beausoleil) and other stuff...that I believe he said cuz it comes from his mouth...

Salem said...

catscradle77 said...
But ssssshhhh dont say that-a movie producer may be here...ROFLMAO

;)
I know a few here to Cat.
I may run it by them;)

Salem said...

yes Cat
but if ya watch video footage of stuff-Charlie says hell yeah there was a black book...starts to talk about the Frenchman (Beausoleil) and other stuff...
then they always cut Charlie off before he can finish his statements, or say things to him, like * Get off the space shuttle Charlie*
As CM says, they have made him into what they wanted, it is their reality not HIS.

catscradle77 said...

Salem said: ;)
I know a few here to Cat.
I may run it by them;)

;)- and I bet they will do it right too ;)

catscradle77 said...

Yes-and if one doesn't know better one believes it...you will like what I sent along-and I have more.they cut Sandy off too, and I would really like to see them both be able to finish what they are saying..
So keep a heads up for a package from our friend in the west..

catscradle77 said...

And my next question is what was Charlie doing at Esalen..the same place Abby hung out at...and why does Sanders have that bigwig from Esalen saying Peter Folger paid people off to keeep quiet...

highlandave said...

Re. Manson visits Cielo crime scene... page 220 Ed Sanders' "The Family" (2002 edition) regarding placement of glasses found by the bloody steamer trunks, Sebring's blood near front porch etc --
THE ANSWER IS THAT MANSON & A COMPANION RETURNED TO THE SCENE OF THE CRIME. 'I WENT BACK TO SEE WHAT MY CHILDREN DID', HE TOLD A LAWYER AT HIS MURDER TRIAL.

Heaven said...

Cats,

I hear ya.. No one can follow Manson's rambling without an interrupter lol

=)

Salem said...

Heaven said...
Cats,

I hear ya.. No one can follow Manson's rambling without an interrupter lol


Ya , sure you can, But u have to listen closly as he speaks in *his own words* and his life.
Like his letters, if u dont know or havent been in touch, it would sounds gibberish to some.

agnostic monk said...

ya gotta cut Sandy off at some point otherwise she just jumps from topic to topic with frightening rapidity and starts sounding like a paranoid schizophrenic. I think she's crazier than Charlie ever was.

I wonder if Sandy still thinks that John Lennon should have stuck "with his own kind" instead of marrying a Japanese woman. I wonder if she thinks his murder was his fault for being in the music industry. After all, Sandy basically told Patti Tate that it was Sharon's own fault she was murdered because she was in Hollywood and Hollywood is a horrible place.

I wonder if she still wants to "kill the grey people" in order to bring them to "now".

LOL. Forgive me, I'm still (slowly)reading Jess Bravin's Squeaky bio and Sandy just gets better and better.

Cue looney-tunes theme music.

:)

Yepyep said...

Yeah I keep being tossed around when I try to decide which one's madder: Sandy or Squeakey. Right now I'm inclined to think Sqeakey makes just a wee bit more sense than Sandy. But all may change tomorrow :)

Is that biography any good btw?

catscradle77 said...

Hey Salem-its looking like Judge Judy paid for the room ;)

catscradle77 said...

Hey Monk-about the grey people-in what context was that said-I dont own that book...was it said in the context of the people stuck in the grey area (hence the grey people) who are wishy washy and can't make up their mind? Just curious..and when was it said...

CreequeAlley said...

It doesn't seem likely that after all this time, that any new facts will come to light.

Many of the principals are deceased. Those that aren't dead, have no reason to lay out new facts.

Dok said...

I have a question. If it was a drug burn and Sharon was not suppose to be there, why did Susan Atkins (Savage this is not meant for an openning for you to devote this thread to your love.) say that "Sharon was the last to die because she had to watch the others die". I know Susan is not an honest person and can't be trusted, but has anyone ever wondered why Sharon had to die last?

Another thing (No sixties kid not Susan, How did the house keeper get out of the gate? Did she push the button? If so, would it not be true to say that she was the one to ruin Tex's print, not the officer. Trust me, I would have done the same and don't blame her. I just have questions for the wisemen/women here on this blog.

I appreciate your responses.

Salem said...

So keep a heads up for a package from our friend in the west..
Ok CAT:)
I sent a letter a couple of days ago to a PAL in cal.
I am waiting to see what HE has to say:)
Peace

Salem said...

ya gotta cut Sandy off at some point otherwise she just jumps from topic to topic with frightening rapidity and starts sounding like a paranoid schizophrenic. I think she's crazier than Charlie ever was.

YOU ARE VERY WRONG. HAVE YOU SPOKEN TO HER? SHE DOES NOT JUMP FROM SUBJECT TO SUBJECT. SHE DOESNT SOUND LIKE A SCHIZO.
AND SHE IS NOT CRAZY.

Salem said...

catscradle77 said...
Hey Salem-its looking like Judge Judy paid for the room ;)

1:20 AM

YES IT DOES. :)
GREY PEOPLE ARE HUMANS NOW FOR YEP YEP 'S INFO.
AND BOTH LYNN AND SANDY ARE VERY INTELLEGNT WOMEN.

Salem said...

I wonder if Sandy still thinks that John Lennon should have stuck "with his own kind" instead of marrying a Japanese woman.

SEEMS SHE DOES THINK THAT RACES SHOULD STAY TOGTHER AND NOT MIX.

ALOT OF PEOPLE THINK THAT. *STAY TO YOUR OWN KIND*
THAT'S HER RIGHT, SHE CAN BELEIVE WHAT SHE WANTS. WE DO STILL HAVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH. NO, I TAKE THAT BACK...BUSH HAS RUINED WHAT LITTLE SECURIY I THOUGHT THE USA HAD.
*AMERICAN IDIOT*

Brenna said...

"Watson’s lying about Manson being at Cielo the day before the murders. It seems logistically impossible. 1st: On August 7th, it is confirmed that Manson was in Oceanside, CA, as he received a citation at 4:15P there. 2nd: Manson was in the 24-hour-a-day company of Stephanie Schram (sp?) from August 4-8th. According to Stephanie’s testimony, they stopped at Spahn on August 6 and left again on August 7th (before Bobby’s arrest) and then did not return to Spahn until the afternoon of August 8th. Stephanie’s testimony seems truthful. So if Manson had gone anywhere near Cielo, I think she would have testified to it."

So couldn't he have stopped by on their way back to Spahn?

Salem said...

FOR CHARLIE
Let us burn one
From end to end
And pass it over
To me my friend
Burn it long, we’ll burn it slow
To light me up before I go

If you don’t like my fire
Then don’t come around
Cause I’m gonna burn one down
Yes I’m gonna burn one down

My choice is what I choose to do
And if I’m causing no harm
It shouldn’t bother you
Your choice is who you choose to be
And if your causin’ no harm
Then you’re alright with me

If you don’t like my fire
Then don’t come around
Cause I’m gonna burn one down
Yes I’m gonna burn one down

Herb the gift from the earth
And what’s from the earth
Is of the greatest worth
So before you knock it try it first
You’ll see it’s a blessing
And not a curse

If you don’t like my fire
Then don’t come around
Cause I’m gonna burn one down
Yes I’m gonna burn one down.

**********************************

Salem said...

Heaven says
It just kinda surprises me that the killers didn't take this decent amount of free dope laying around...
Maybe because they didnt go there to steal dope, (not the dope that was laying around,) they came for the money or drugs that VF had promised them. ANOTHER DRUG BURN!
Tex hated those.
Why wonder if he still tokes up now? every now and then yannnnnnno?

Salem said...

TO THE COL

CARE FOR A GAME? POOL THAT IS. I DONT LIKE OTHER GAMES VERY MUCH.

PAINT IT BLACK ROOM? YAHOOOOOOO

Heaven said...

It's never been stated that Tex's fingerprint was on the gate, it's just assumed...

Mrs Chapman probably did press it, but she's a housekeep, not a police officer...

Jerry Derosa was in charge of securing and protecting the scene, he should have known better than to press the button.

Whether or not anyone had touched it was irrelivant, it was part of his job to know better.

When questioned as to why he did it, he said
"I had to get out of there"..

Heaven said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Heaven said...

"So if Manson had gone anywhere near Cielo, I think she would have testified to it."

She did...
She testified that Manson left their bed (at Spahn) in the middle of the night and didn't return until after sunrise.

Stephanie also testified that she didn't know what time they arrived back at Spahn cause no one ever knew the time of day.... Except Manson of course...

60skid said...

Dr Dodopariti,
Dr Dodopariti, First off I would like to say I am sorry to everyone for fighting and responding back to Savage.
I have made my mind up to stop looking retarded as The Col would say. I will not read or respond back to him at any time. I am very sorry if I upset anyone with my fighting with him.

SiebenzumSterben said...

I’ve always thought it odd that Manson went back and no one caught them. The original police report documents arguing at 4 a.m. (my times may be off) in the general area of 10050 Cielo, and I guess it had to be Manson, et al doing the arguing. But over what? And why don’t the police go up there and see what the hell is going on? Weren’t there reported gunshots at 12:30 a.m.? So between 12 a.m.-4 a.m., there are reports of odd-goings on in the area of 10050 Cielo and police don’t investigate. What balls it took for Manson to go back up there. And he must have gone back—someone put Tate and Sebring on the front porch, and then took them back in. I also wonder, how wild were some of the parties that summer at 10050 Cielo? Maybe parties were pretty loud, and all the noise on Aug. 9 was dismissed by neighbors as "just another clambake at the Polanski place."

shelby445 said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Pristash said...

Reports of arguing at around 4am are in the police reports...but no one called the police at the time, it was after the murders were discovered that people contacted the police and told them what they heard. Hell, even Mrs. Kott didn't call the police when she heard poor SP being shot!

Dok said...

60's Kid, I was just playing with you. You don't need to be sorry, you were not the one out of line.

Salem said...

I also wonder, how wild were some of the parties that summer at 10050 Cielo? Maybe parties were pretty loud, and all the noise on Aug. 9 was dismissed by neighbors as "just another clambake at the Polanski place."

pretty wild from what I heard.( the parties)
Manson( and others) went back to clean up what the Murderers did! He did NOT want to have the police back at the ranch! he didnt want to go back to jail. Thats why I will never beleive he killed anyone, he enjoyed his freedom.
If I had been CM I would have gone back home to W Va. But, he stayed with his group.
Wasnt Tex the first to haul butt back to Texas?

Pristash said...

And here is another thing to make you check your maps....

That Tim Ireland guy who is the chaperone guy at the Westlake School sleep out hears some guy screaming "Oh no, no, no, please don't", without an accent mind you, from thew direction of the north...which is just where the Tate house is located....but when he investigates, Ireland drove southbound on Benedict Canyon Road to Sunset Boulevard, westbound to Beverly Glenn, and northbound back to the Westlake school. The poor guy never even went in the direction that the screams came from....or so it seems...what's up with that?

Also, can't somebody track down ole Linda Kasabian and ask her if VF raped her like Savage claims?

Dok said...

"Heaven said...
It's never been stated that Tex's fingerprint was on the gate, it's just assumed...

Mrs Chapman probably did press it, but she's a housekeep, not a police officer...

Jerry Derosa was in charge of securing and protecting the scene, he should have known better than to press the button.

Whether or not anyone had touched it was irrelivant, it was part of his job to know better."

It's never been stated that his finger print was not on the button to the gate? I have read in several books that there was a print.

I agree with you, it was the officers job to know better. I was just asking about the housekeeper because it has never been mentioned that she pushed the button. I would think that it would make the point mute as far as the police officer pushing it. To me it just seems like another slam for no reason.

What about Sharon being the last to die. Why did Susan "The Thing" say that? Any ideas Heaven?

Dok said...

Pristash, Maybe screams are like singing, the accent is all but lost.

Heaven said...

Susan said that it was Manson's favorite trip.. Death brought people to "now"...

Personally, I think they did it just to watch Sharon suffer...

Had Sharon put up the fight the others did, I don't think they would have waited to kill her....

As for Mrs Chapman, she did push the button to get in.. It doesn't say she pushed it the way out, but I think it's safe to assume she did....

Dok said...

Thanks Heaven your a doll. You always have the info.

Heaven said...

Thanks babe.. I try lol

I really don't think there was any "reason" why they didn't kill Sharon as quickly as the others.. I think it just worked out that way cause she wasn't causing them any problems. Unlike Voyteck and Abigail...

Sharon probably thought they weren't going to hurt her. What monster kills a pregnant woman?

I can't even begin to imagine what that poor woman went thru.

Dok said...

Oh my God, I know. I think about the torture they put her through and I just want to protect her. I know it's to late, but damn why kill this young beautiful mother to be. That's why the crew of murders should never be released. I don't think there is enough time that would be considered restitution.

Audio Magic said...

Dr.Dodopariti said...
Oh my God, I know. I think about the torture they put her through and I just want to protect her. I know it's to late, but damn why kill this young beautiful mother to be. That's why the crew of murders should never be released. I don't think there is enough time that would be considered restitution.

1:41 PM

There is a photo of Sharon Tate taken the day she was murdered and it's a side view, where she is holding up her hair and she looks absolutely gorgeous. There was no way she could've escaped or run from those monsters. I remember being eight and a half months preggers and in good health, without gaining too much weight and even being healthy there is no way could I have run. She was totally vulnerable. And for that Effing piece of Sh!t to stab her, then go on to have children of his own just makes my blood boil--Tex Watson and The Thing will NEVER set foot out of prison. Ain't gonna happen. Just for that alone. Scott Peterson killed a pregnant woman, just as pregnant as Sharon was, and got the Death Penalty. Sharon's baby would have been a healthy baby boy if he had been born that day. It gives me the shivers, and makes me so sad.
:**(

Heaven said...

I agree with Audio,

I've been 8.5 months pregnant twice and there was no way I could have run anywhere.

Walked quickly, yes. Ran, no....

Salem said...

Had Sharon put up the fight the others did, I don't think they would have waited to kill her....

I think it was pat who asked to take Sharon back to the ranch?
then was it Atkins that wanted to cut the baby out and take it?
sicko sadie

60skid said...

Dr.Dodopariti said...
Oh my God, I know. I think about the torture they put her through and I just want to protect her. I know it's to late, but damn why kill this young beautiful mother to be. That's why the crew of murders should never be released. I don't think there is enough time that would be considered restitution.

I agree with that ..That is why I do not want them out my self.Today Baby Paul would have got them a another count of murder.How any one can kill children or unborn children is something I do not deal with well.

Salem said...

Audio
She was totally vulnerable. And for that Effing piece of Sh!t to stab her, then go on to have children of his own just makes my blood boil--Tex Watson and The Thing will NEVER set foot out of prison. Ain't gonna happen.

agrees
I wish Sharon or jay could have gotten to the gun out of her bedroom nighstand. Roman had bought her that pistol, (some speculation about threats he had recieved about
the movie he was making? )

Heaven said...

I believe it was Sharon who asked them to take her with them, give her two weeks to have her baby, then they could kill her.

Patricia claims in recent parole hearings that she wasn't there when Sharon died. She was out checking the guesthouse. When she returned, Sharon was already dead...

I have no idea if that's true or not. They all tell a different version of the events...

60skid said...

pritash,
They say the noise in Benedict Caynon carries different then in a lot of places. So the man went where he thought the screaming was coming from.

Dok said...

"There is a photo of Sharon Tate taken the day she was murdered and it's a side view, where she is holding up her hair and she looks absolutely gorgeous."

Audio, that is my favorite picture of Sharon, she does look gorgeous.

60skid said...

Dr,
Did you know that Mrs Tate died never seeing that picture

agnostic monk said...

Catscradle:

the "grey people" supposedly referred to the citizens of Los Angeles who would pass the girls on the corner of Temple and Broadway going about their daily lives. I'm guessing it's not meant to be a compliment. You see, Sandy Good is living in truth and living free, whereas the rest of us poor slobs are just mindless zombie slaves to the establishment. Sandy is better than us, more enlightened, more in tune with the universe and with "Now".

- rolls eyes - Whatever Sandy. Pretty much the same shit that comes out of any disgruntled 16 year old who is mad at the world, only Sandy never grew out of that phase.

yes, Jess Bravin's book is very good. He doesn't sensationalize, tells it all very straighforward and doesn't dwell on gruesome Helter Skelter hysterics.

agnostic monk said...

Salem,

Yes I realize that Sandra Good has the right to believe that the races shouldn't mix (as per her statement about John Lennon/Yoko Ono and other weird racial overtones to her bizarre philosophies).

I also have the right to believe she is bat-shit crazy.

I never said she wasn't intelligent.

But I do think she's nuts and has some pretty extreme personality and emotional problems.

And I do think she's a disgusting human being for claiming to respect her friends who murdered a pregnant woman out of some ill-conceived political statement (one that didn't even seem to exist in the minds of the killers, but did in Sandy's mind).

I do think she's a disgusting human being for the way she behaved in the Manson documentary, cradling her rifle and not giving a shit about Sharon Tate's baby, and in various interviews and tv appearances.

I do think she's bat-shit crazy for, among other things, all the People's Court of Retribution crap and that Nunness bunk, all of which was a 100% complete and utter failure at affecting change in the world.

I do think she's an idiot for wasting her life on Manson, for giving up her child (although he's probably MUCH better off that he wasn't raised by her), and for never denouncing the murders and for promoting her sunny memories of Spahn Ranch as the one and only truth as if she were privy to everyone and everything that went on there.

I am astounded that there are people who look up to her and respect her. Sure she was committed to her loosely-conceived agenda. Lots of wacky people are committed to lots of things. That doesn't make them worthy of reverence in my book.

Maybe if she wasn't so busy taking drugs and looking down on the rest of the world with her smug arrogant bratty manner she would have made something out of her life.

Good thing Miss "The Whole Country Is Gonna Have To Come To Truth, And That's Not In Your Money" has daddy's trust fund to help with the bills.

catscradle77 said...

Thanks Monk, but I dont see her saying she is better than anyone, that just she views the people passing them on the corner as people who didnt "see" them..and like automans..so lets just agree to disagree on Sandy :)

Hey Salem-our friend got the epackage and is very happy (lol and it isnt drugs, jsut wanted to state that before someone jumps to conclusions!)-let me know how the letter turns out-please send along my best...

highlandave said...

Manson was abruptly turned away from the Cielo property by Shahrokh Hatami, in the presence of Sharon, on the evening of 3/23/69. Also present at the time (& visible to Manson) were Folger, Frykowski & Sebring. Rudi Altobelli also spurned Manson's jive talk (a bit more politely than Hatami) on this occasion. Folger is rumoured to have rejected his sexual advances.
Manson instigated the death of Shea (all Bruce Davis appeared to do was leave a fingerprint on Shea's belongings when they packed it all up). Manson also shot Crowe, thinking that he'd killed him (having intended to, one can assume).
Manson arrived at the Hinman residence & promptly sliced Gary's face with a sword prompting things to descend into chaos & beyond the point of no return (especially for Robert Beausoleil who remains locked up 37 years later).
I don't think Manson's the happy-go-lucky slippie that a lot of people want him to be.

Dok said...

"60skid said...
Dr,
Did you know that Mrs Tate died never seeing that picture"

Are you serious? How sad for that poor family.

Salem said...

Pretty much the same shit that comes out of any disgruntled 16 year old who is mad at the world, only Sandy never grew out of that phase.

NOT SO MONK

SHES GOT MORE SMARTS THAN YOU!

60skid said...

Dr.
Dr.Dodopariti said...
"60skid said...
Dr,
Did you know that Mrs Tate died never seeing that picture"

Are you serious? How sad for that poor family

Yes the police took the un developed roll of film after the murders.. Some how Bill Nelson got them from a police man Bill was selling them I believe.

Salem said...

Maybe if she wasn't so busy taking drugs and looking down on the rest of the world with her smug arrogant bratty manner she would have made something out of her life.

for your info
lynn and sandy took the least drugs of any on the ranch.
I dont give a rats ass what you think of sandy.
its your reality.

Dok said...

Monk, good post.

60's Kid, I thought Doris Tate was tight with Nelson. If he had the pictures, why did he not share them with her. He did seem like a self serving bastard, so I think I answered my own question.

You got my post earlier about just teasing you, right? It's all in fun, and mostly pokes at Savage.

Salem said...

Hey Salem-our friend got the epackage and is very happy (lol and it isnt drugs, jsut wanted to state that before someone jumps to conclusions!)-let me know how the letter turns out-please send along my best...

kewl
I will let yanno soon as it arrives:)

Salem said...

Of course. I still live there at the ranch. First of all, you're
misinformed, as is everyone misinformed, about the so called
"The Family." There was no organization called "The Family." The
Family was a term given by the media to an amorphous group of
people, some of whom went to prison in 1969. We lived on a ranch
in the Santa Susanna mountains, called the Spahn Ranch and later
we lived in Death Valley. We didn't call ourselves anything, but
we made a lot of music and somebody said "Well, what do you call
your group?" And somebody said, "Well, we're the Family Jams."
So, over a period of time, because the media usually need to put
labels on situations, we got the name "The Family." But there
were literally hundreds of people who came and went. Later on,
you might say, there was a core of people who were very close
together and who stayed true to the thought that we had for
stopping the war in Vietnam and for protecting our air, our water,
our trees and our animals. We were so committed to those causes
that the murders more or less evolved out of our desire to change
the system.
interview with sandy*

Salem said...

as far as Sandy and drugs!

I wasn't rebellious. I didn't take drugs. I was searching and I
was never really close to my parents. I was 24 years old at the
time and I wasn't really beholden to them in any way. I wasn't
close. I kept contact with my father, my dad. I would check in
now and then with him. I never really had much contact with my
mother, even when I was growing up. She was a social climber and
involved in money and images and that I saw as a very empty -
It's sort of the way Nancy Reagan and those people are - it's a
very empty, superficial, hollow - it's really a cruel way of
living - When they put money over the well-being of the planet and
of their own children. They care more about their social image
and their status than they care about whether there is going to be
air and water to sustain their own children's lives.

Salem said...

and last post about Blue

And those murders were not at the direction of Charles
Manson. Those people that went out did so of their own free will
and of their own volition. There was reason in each person's mind
for what they did. It had nothing to do with Manson's will or his
direction. He had nothing to do with those murders. The kids
that did those killings were primarily middle-class people who
were raised in similar ways that I was raised and did not like
what was going on in this country. They wanted to stop the war in
Vietnam. They wanted to stop the pollution. They wanted to get
one of their brothers out of jail who was arrested for something.
There were different reasons for those killings which haven't been
fully explained. It could be explained but it would take a lot of
time...

What happened is that the prosecution, the D.A. and all those
people didn't want to face the fact that kids that could have been
their own kids did these things. So, they had a person who was
raised on the bottom of society, very poor, little education, who
had been raised in jail since he was nine years old - that's
Manson - and they said that he was the driving force behind what
happened. Then the D.A. saw that a lot of money could be made
through the trial, through books, through movie rights, T.V.,
Helter Skelter shows, and he covered up the truth because he was
selling something.

What happens when a prosecution doesn't have a case is they'll
take people, for example, they took a biker who was a pretty
sleazy guy. He had charges against him and they made a deal with
this guy that in return for false testimony they would drop all
his charges. It happens a lot. They (government) cut deals.
They get people to lie and then they give the person the false
identity and money and relocate them to another state. They
dragged up people from all kinds of places, made all kinds of
deals and they created a case that would serve the prosecution.
Of course, the jury looks to the judge as a father figure and the
judge is working for public opinion and for dollars and holding
hands with the D.A., etc. So, it's really unfortunate these days
that the court room is not a place where the truth comes out.
It's a very tragic situation because what this country was founded
on was the rights - what people died for were for people's rights
in the courtroom and Charles Manson did not get his rights in the
courtroom. All his rights have been taken from him.

Salem said...

cat says
Sandy Good is living in truth and living free,

yes she is Cat:)
she still has her bike, she still grows her veggies and she is still very active in groups that against polluting our planet.

catscradle77 said...

Thanks for the posts Salem..if that is what a paranoid schizo sounds like, I want to be one...ROFLMAO..I hear I hear..tomorrow we shall chat..

60skid said...

Dr,
You got my post earlier about just teasing you, right? It's all in fun, and mostly pokes at Savage


Yes but I been thinking I look retarded fighting with him. It is just time to end it

Heaven said...

60skid

Doris did see those pictures...

Bill, being the great guy he was, showed them to her....

=)

catscradle77 said...

Salem Said: Then the D.A. saw that a lot of money could be made
through the trial, through books, through movie rights, T.V.,
Helter Skelter shows, and he covered up the truth because he was
selling something.


I wonder how much money-what the grand total is so far..

Heaven said...

Ya know, I gutta say that people so concerned about polluting the planet left Spahn, Myers and Barker ranch looking like a bunch of landfills...

Salem said...

catscradle77 said...
Thanks for the posts Salem..if that is what a paranoid schizo sounds like, I want to be one...ROFLMAO..I hear I hear..tomorrow we shall chat..


yw.
i want to be one too!
lookin forward to chat:)

60skid said...

Heaven
60skid

Doris did see those pictures...

Bill, being the great guy he was, showed them to her....

Oh really I have read she did not get to see them. But you would have thought the police would have returned them to her.
I always heard that Lisa turned the pictures over to Patti ..I could be wrong.

Heaven said...

Yup, she did.. It was later in her life though...

Salem said...

I wonder how much money-what the grand total is so far..

LOTS Cat!
I have a connection in Ca that married into the Buggie;s family and he says they are all a bunch of drunks, and that THE BUG when he gets really wasted will brag about the millions he made off that little hillbillie from Ohio.
:(
Oh well, If Manson was so bad and a Killer( and the rest of the Core,) then Buggie would not be alive today having his parties on his BIG BOAT*.ya reckon? lol

catscradle77 said...

Salem-YUCKIE BUGGIE...that's true...the BUG really hasnt remained that low profile has he? I'm thinking Judge Judy is renting the room from the BUG...the Bug's movie sucked...whatever happened with that movie that was in the works from the Sanders book...I heard something about Depp playing Manson...then nothing...I wonder what happened

60skid said...

Heaven
I sure your right

closed blog said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
agnostic monk said...

Salem,

My intention was never to make this personal between you and I. I have nothing against you. I like your posts. But I still believe Sandy is loony-tunes.

There are a lot of people who are committed to doing good works in the world; cleaning up the environment, helping the less fortunate, etc. Most of them weren't also running around in the early 70's cheering their friends on for murdering a pregnant woman. They weren't carving swastikas in their foreheads and bragging about how "snitches" will be taken care of.

And then her little endorsement in 1994: "I'll take responsibility for ALL the murders (committed by family members)."

I can certainly relate to a lot of the things Sandra Good complains about in those quotes you posted (which I've read before). There are a lot of injustices in the world. Not exactly a new or brilliant insight. Her way of addressing said injustices has been, back in those days all the way through the latest I've read of her, quite laughable.

Like I've said before, the college kid strolling the corner of my neighborhood taking donations for environmental organizations has done more to clean up the world than Sandra Good's ineffectual little mixed-up revolutionary queen routine.

Again, this is not personal about you. These are my feelings about Sandra Good.

Heaven said...

Savage,

You loser, go play on your own blog. You've ruined enough topics over here.

Maybe you can spend your time deleting posts made to your blog. Don't think a lot of us haven't noticed.

Idiot.

agnostic monk said...

Heaven said...
"Ya know, I gutta say that people so concerned about polluting the planet left Spahn, Myers and Barker ranch looking like a bunch of landfills..."

LOL Heaven. Actually DOING something about pollution would have involved taking a break from the drugs and sex and the indulgences in the "I hate Mommy and Daddy" routine.

Too much to ask of that bunch.

:)

closed blog said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Heaven said...

Yeah, like Susan_Sucks said, I'm SOOOO jealous of a 57 year old slut. A muff diver that needs a hearing aid just to hear the moaning...

Get lost loser. As my teenager daughter would say "no one likes you"..

Don't you have some threatening email to send?

60skid said...

Mirror
Savage RDDB-DA said...
Heaven,

You're so jealous of Susan that it just tears you apart from within ..... and ya know what .... I'M LOVING EVERY MINUTE OF IT !!!!!

catscradle77 said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Heaven said...

LOL Monk,

It's just a little hypocritical to me... They send out death threats to polluters, but look how they left Barker ranch. Their garbage is still up there....

It's great to have a cause you believe in and I fully respect their beliefs, but geez.. Practice what you preach lol

agnostic monk said...

Savage,

The Colonel has created a space where we can come and feel free to express ourselves about the TLB case and ask questions and share our knowledge.

You piss all over the blog when you make it your personal playground for wanking off.

If we wanted that kind of environment, we'd just go to some shit Yahoo chat room or something.

60skid said...

Heaven, I am not fighting with The Thing 2 I will copy and do the mirror

60skid said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Heaven said...

Monk,

Savage took my advice and created himself an "I-Love-Susan" blog all his own. But he's been deleting all the posts that the opposers make.. And I'm told, he changed the settings so no one can post LOL

I warned him that he'd be very lonely in his own group, and see, he's back to join us lol

Heaven said...

Heaven, I am not fighting with The Thing 2 I will copy and do the mirror

5:32 PM


I don't care if you fight with him... Like my kids say (again) "He started it" lol

If he didn't love us he wouldn't keep running back here to us..

Hopefully the Col will just block his IP and we can be rid of him for good....

60skid said...

Boy does he delete fast you know I think if you say it then be a person and stand behind it and stop deleteing

Heaven said...

I've been told he's changed the settings so only "team members" can post..

Funny huh? He can come over here and cause as much grief and havoc as he feels like, but he won't tolerate it on his blog...

Heaven said...

Oh 60skid.. Click on my name.. I finally did something with my blog..

=)

60skid said...

I've been told he's changed the settings so only "team members" can post..

Funny huh? He can come over here and cause as much grief and havoc as he feels like, but he won't tolerate it on his blog...

Who are the team members.. his self

Heaven said...

LOL

Yeah, him and his 50 other ID's lol

=)

60skid said...

heaven
I love your blog Sharon,Selene and Dorothy all beautiful women who died way to young.
Sharon looks so beautiful even almost 9 months pregnant. Of course we can thank Tex and The Thing for that.

Audio Magic said...

Well what a big baby--He won't let me post on his idiot little blog. So I will say what I was going to say on his blog--on this blog. He reminds me of the board I used t help with. The owner promised that we could have our own opions, but when people started posting their opinions opposite of the board owner's opinions they got booted.

F U Savage ya dumb-phuck
Like chasing bunnies tried to say...
In Southern California way back in 1964-65 The kids were into surfing and drag racing. I was only ten, but I used to sit on the beach and watch these blonde-haired, good looking tanned guys and their long blonde-haired, tanned girlfriends partying, and wishing I could be like them...they played nothing but Beach Boys on the radio. When the Beatles hit the US, southern Californians didn't like them.They weren't considered "Bitchin" Then after a year or so they became popular with the surfer/hippie culture. I just don't think that the Beatles were very good musicians. I liked them only because it was a time of escapeism from the ugly reality of the cold war, the Vietnam war, The Civil Rights riots, and the yhypocrisy of our parents at that time. Bob Dylan wrote better songs, and the San Francisco groups were big time talented. The Beatles, as I said before were at the right place during the right time. The assaination of JFK, and the Vietnam war, civl rights movements, rioting and so on was so ugly and I was old enough to remember this stuff and how rapidly our society changed. The media termed this "The Generation Gap" Like I said Paul McCartmey said himself that Brian Wilson was a genious, and that he got the idea for Seargent Peppers from Brian Wilson's Pet Sounds...but if you research the roots of R&R--it goes way back to the Mississippi Delta, and the black rythem and blues...and even further back than that. The Beatles took a little bit of black rythem and blues, and the R&R of the 1950's (Little Richard, Buddy Holly etc...) and so forth and created a style that somebody else had all ready done. Mixed it together and there ya have it. I didn't say I disliked the Beatles. I have fond memories of listening to them. I just never thought they were as technically progressive as some of the other groups of the time. Of course my favorite Beatle was John Lennon, because he was so sarcastic--kinda like Bob Dylan----Oh! AND LONG LIVE THE GRATEFUL DEAD!!!!!!
:-)

60skid said...

The Col said to copy Savages posts and write Mirror ..So everyone can read them before he deletes .So if he starts posting Copy and paste and write mirror ..and post.

Heaven said...

Thank you....

Those are my 3 favorite women who are no longer with us...

It's amazing how much they all had in common...

All young, each only in their early 20's..

Each murdered before their career had a chance to take off...

Both Selena and Dorothy were killed by people they trusted....

Sharon and Dorothy were both killed in August...

Small things, but interesting....

Someday I hope I can go visit each of their graves....

Heaven said...

Audio,

I'm not into the Beatles either, if it's any constellation to ya lol

I'm a Pink Floyd fan....

=)

60skid said...

Audio
You forget to remind Savage his favorite Beatle George Harrison lost his women Patti ..to Eric Clapton ...Layla you get me on my knees

60skid said...

Heaven, I am planting on visiting Sharon's grave this summer when I visit a cousin in La

Heaven said...

What a coincidence, I hear Savage is on his knees too...

Sucky sucky $15 dolla

=)

60skid said...

heaven
What a coincidence, I hear Savage is on his knees too...

Sucky sucky $15 dolla
I can hear it my self but at least I got him post so people can read what he said to you

Heaven said...

He's dreamin if he thinks that anyone in their right mind would be jealous of Susan...

Unlike her, I'm free.. I'm not locked up like the caged animal she is...

I don't need the state to provide my living essentials for me. I have a family and can celebrate holidays with them..

If anything, she's jealous of us lol

She'll be wearing Depends soon.

60skid said...

ATTENTION SAVAGES LATEST DELETED POST MIRROR


Mirror
Savage RDDB-DA said...
Heaven,

You're so jealous of Susan that it just tears you apart from within ..... and ya know what .... I'M LOVING EVERY MINUTE OF IT !!!!!

60skid said...

I tried to be a lady and leave this man alone.I even said I was sorry to everyone for fighting with him
Its very unfair to everyone ..trying to post about the topic .and this man can not stop for nothing.

Heaven said...

How dare you be a lady! Don't you know that makes you emotional and irrational? LOL

=)

Heaven said...

*snipe* 200!!

Sorry, can't help myself lol

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