Sunday, April 30, 2006

Submission is a Gift, Give it to Your Brother


Does ANYONE really believe that Dennis Wilson tried to pay Charlie Manson for two songs that the Beach Boys recorded with some motorcycles? I mean the Beach Boys were huge, with managers and what have you. They'd want everything in writing, no?

Does ANYONE believe that Dennis didn't know more than he admitted, all the way to the grave? I mean the guy WAS FRIENDS with Charlie and Melcher was his contact.

Does ANYONE believe that the Bug really didn't think he knew more? I mean, Dennis once called Charlie the Wizard and they lived at his house with all the girls.

Sure, Dennis broke it off with Charlie.

But I always wondered what more he knew.

140 comments:

shoresendz said...

Sorry to backtrack guys, but JOE I think I’ve solved your Joe Sage/Kasabian mystery. Took me a while to dig it up, but I found the police interview report with Sage.

Much as I hate to admit it, (and MONK, you’ll love this and want to buy me that beer) seems Kasabian’s tracks are covered here in regards to the safety of Tanya. First, when she met Sage, Tanya was already in a foster home from the Aug 16th raid. Second, Tanya was in her custody in Taos when she and Sage made the call to Spahn Ranch.

If interested the following is the police document:

Joseph Sage a Zen Buddist Monk, was contacted and interviewed in the city of Tucson, Arizona. It was noted that Mr. Sage is a nomad with no permanent address, lives out of a converted commercial bus and wanders from town to town visiting various religious and hippy communes. Mr. Sage was interviewed in order to back up Linda Kasabian’s story that she informed him of the homicides sometime in August. Mr. Sage stated that either in late July or the first two weeks of August 1969, Linda Kasabian arrived at his church in Taos, New Mexico and requested assistance in getting custody of her child who was in a foster home in Los Angeles. Mr. Sage arranged for a Los Angeles attorney to look into this matter and eventually was able to obtain custody for Linda of her child. Linda stayed at Mr. Sage’s residence for several more weeks. During this time, Linda seemed upset over another matter and questioned intensely by Joe Sage and Jeffrey Jacobs, regarding this. Toward the end of her stay at Sages residence, she finally agreed to inform him of her problem. At that time, she stated to Mr. Sage that she had been involved in some homicides with other people. She added that although she was involved, she had not actually participated in the killings of these persons. When questioned further, she stated that two males who had gone with she and another girl had climbed the telephone pole and cut the wires leading into the victim’s residence. She then related that they climbed over a fence of the victim’s yard and waited several minutes. At that time, she observed a male wearing glasses and carrying a briefcase coming out of the house. This male walked toward the gate at which time he was shot and killed by one of her male companions. Mr. Sage stated that he has a very poor memory and does not recall her exact conversation and is not sure if she actually said there were two males and two females involved and does not recall anything further about her conversation . Mr. Sage stated that he did not believe Linda’s story about the killings and attempted to question her further. He noted many discrepancies in Linda’s story. Linda continued to insist that the story was true and that it could be verified by various people at the Spahn Ranch in CA. Sage asked Linda to telephone the Spahn Ranch to verify this story. Linda dialed the number in CA and talked to someone for several minutes. Joe Sage then took the phone from Linda and talked to a female on the other end of the line and asked her whether her story regarding the killings was true. The female at the other end of the line stated that Linda was nuts and that she often fabricated stories. At that time, Sage believed the female on the other end of the telephone and did not question Linda further. Several days after this telephone conversation, Linda left the Taos area enroute to New Hampshire.

Joe said...

Shore,

My favorite line from that report:

"He noted many discrepancies in Linda’s story."

Joe said...

According to Witness to Evil's summary of linda's testimony, she said Sagfe called CM about the murders and THEN she went to LA to get the kid. Someone needs to check the trscpt.

[Witness -- page 147]"She told her husband and Joe Sage the essential facts of the multiple murders, Sage phoned Manson to check the story and Manson told him that she had flipped out and that her ego wasn’t ready to die…shethen spoke to Krenwinkel…you just couldn’t wait to open your big mouth, could you?’ Sage gave money to Linda to go to LA and retrieve Tanya, which, after one more trip back to Taos because of a legal complication, she did…then she set out for Miami…"

Joe said...

And about Wilson. If Bug is telling the truth in his book, Wilson didn't speak to law enforcement about Manson until FEB. 24, 1970 (when he spoke to Bug)?! C’mon! That makes no sense at all. Everyone was talking about Wilson and Manson -- beginning with DeCarlo and Ronnie Howard on Nov. 17, 1969. It took Bugliosi THREE MONTHS to get to him?! And then he didn't have to testify? Something’s definitely missing in there….

CreequeAlley said...

I seriously doubt Dennis Wilson knew about any nefarious Family activities. I think he simply got tired of being walked on.

Why? Because Charlie wanted the prestige of having a friend like Wilson, plus, if a rich star would foot the bill for a while, why tell him of anything, other than music, peace, love?

As far as calling Charlie a wizard, maybe he was taken in by it all for a time, like Moorehouse and Posten were, but tired of the damage done to his bank account.

Heaven said...

Well, rumor had it that Wilson knew the "true motive" for the murders and was going to write a book about it. But he died, in 12 feet of water with an unexplained gash on his head, before he could....

I think he knew a lot....

Heaven said...

When Dennis cleaned himself up, he was quite a hottie. I can see why Christine McVie was so taken by him....

CreequeAlley said...

If Dennis knew of motives, he probably thought it best to keep quiet.

But I believe his death was truly accidental. He was drunk, and diving for "artifacts" that he threw overboard from his boat sometime before.

Booze, and/or dope and water do not mix. For example, Brian Jones dwoned in his swimming pool, intoxicated. Natalie Wood drowned off Catalina Island, probably intoxicated.

Heaven said...

I can't say whether or not his death was accidental..

CreequeAlley said...

I have a documentary movie on the Beach Boys. You're right, Dennis was the hottie of the group. Up until 1976 or so, it seemed he was totally in control. Soon after that, he went into a rapid decline from booze and drugs. It was sad.

CreequeAlley said...

I really think his death was accidental. Admittedly, I have never read the coroner's report or anything like that, but nothing I've heard or read has lead me to believe anything but accidental.

You are the first one I've ever heard mention a gash on his forehead. Even if true, it doesn't point to anything suspicious, to me. He dived into the water, hit his head on something, and drowned.

CreequeAlley said...

Make that "dove" into the water.

Can't you edit your post here?

Audio Magic said...
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agnostic monk said...

Heaven said...
>>>When Dennis cleaned himself up, he was quite a hottie. I can see why Christine McVie was so taken by him<<<

YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU You Make Lovin' Fun, It's All I Wanna Do....

YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU You Make Lovin' Fun, It's All I Wanna Do....

Was it about John McVie or Dennis Wilson?

Synesthesiac said...

>>Dennis Wilson was so scared of CM and the others that he split, and let the house payments lapse on his mansion. He knew all about the nefarious activities going on at the ranch and elsewhere, and that is why he ran, scared shitless, to a friends house leaving no forwarding address. Same thing happened to Terry Melcher. Manson showed up at Melchers door, freaked Melcher out and Melcher and his girfiend Candace Bergen high-tailed it out of that Cielo Drive home, faster than you can say Cease To Exist. Course this is just my opinion but c'mon...Dennis Wilson was terrified of CM as was Melcher.
<<

Hello everyone,
I agree with the above. They had recently not only snubbed Manson on a promised recording deal (allegedly) but also stolen his material and then adulterated it (factual).

Hell yes Dennis was spooked. He knew the family intensly. I speculate that Dennis told Melcher how it really was that they may have gotten away with these deeds in the eyes of law, but that Manson would not accept this and would bring them street justice..

He got through. Melcher split and so did Dennis.

ps
(this doesn't mean I think the murders were about the recording deal(s), at least as motive I mean. This may factor into the equation somewhat however). and...

It may just be me but that video of the beach boys doing the song "Never Learn Not To Love" or whatever it is.. Dennnis seems uptight to me as if his hearts really not in it, or he's thinking this is a bad idea or something.

Heaven said...

Manson also showed up to Dennis Wilsons' new house (Wilson couldn't figure out how Manson tracked him down) and threatened to kill Wilsons' son...

Dennis was scared... He knew something. But what, we'll never know....

Heaven said...

Monk,

You Make Lovin Fun was not about Wilson cause Christine didn't meet him until after the Rumors album was complete.. She was still married to John until the Rumors tour ended..

She did write Over My Head for him.. As was Hold Me.. She said that most of her songs on the Mirage album were written about Dennis..

=)

Heaven said...

OOPS! I forgot the Only Over You was written about him too..

=)

Heaven said...

Check this out...

http://denniswilsonforever.wg-net.com/manson.html

Bugliosi's interview with Dennis Wilson...

=)

catscradle77 said...
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GLH said...

Why would Wilson have been murdered so long after the trials? I mean, there are others who must know as much - if not more - than Wilson could have and they weren't murdered. The Bug probably knows the real motive and no one has tried to kill him, have they?

GLH said...

I think that the "family" is given way too much credit. I think there were some unfortunate deaths that have been attributed to the members of Manson's clan that were just coincidence. Besides, what could possibly happen if anything "new" came out? Who could possibly get in trouble? It's been too long.

Yepyep said...
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Heaven said...

Gary,

In further reading this morning about his death, I doubt that the family had anything to do with it.. He was drunk at the time of his death. So by all probability, he drowned.

Magick_Films said...

Not on my board nearly enough. If I don't know what you think...I don't know what to do.

meatwad said...

According to Noguchi in his book "Coroner" it was accidental drowning. The alcohol in Wilson's blood caused him to absorb even more nitrogen than normal when diving leading to euphoria and finally passing out (from memory, I read the book a while back). The case was investigated for any possible connection to the "family".

Also, the cut/slash on his head was from a verified fight over some chick in a bar a day or two earlier.

catscradle77 said...
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Salem said...

Charlie knew that The Beach Boys had gotten a settlement from a lawsuit they had against Captiol records* ( i think) in April 1969.
It was a huge settlement. I dont know why Wilson never paid CM.
And if I recall correctly, it was MELCHER who gave money told Tex to go to Tates home and double the money he had given them as VF had *drugs*
jmho

Salem said...

The case was investigated for any possible connection to the "family".

more to feed the media i guess.. If CM had wanted to harm Dennis he would have done something way before that tragic drowning happened. I always thought he and Dennis stayed freinds.???
I know about 2 years ago, the Beach Boys did something like a reunion on the beach in Ca and the same time Blue did some poetry reading up in and around Death Valley* Kinda odd timing I thought at the time.
jmho

Salem said...

Did Greg Jacobson ever testify at the trial?

Salem said...
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Salem said...
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Salem said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_in_music

hope this shows up!
Peace

Salem said...

to Lew Grade's Associated Television (ATV).
April 1 - The Beach Boys file a lawsuit against their record label, Capitol Records, for $2,041,446.64 in unpaid royalties and producer's fees for Brian Wilson. Capitol retaliates by deleting most of its Beach Boys catalog, severely limiting the band's income.

Natalie said...

to Lew Grade's Associated Television (ATV).
April 1 - The Beach Boys file a lawsuit against their record label, Capitol Records, for $2,041,446.64 in unpaid royalties and producer's fees for Brian Wilson. Capitol retaliates by deleting most of its Beach Boys catalog, severely limiting the band's income.


That's very interesting, Salem. I wasn't aware of that. It's really too bad Dennis died so young because had he lived longer; with the resurgence in demand for The Beach Boys music - he would have regained a substantial portion of wealth again.

The Beach Boys' music are timeless classics!

meatwad said...

Cat said,

"Sounds like he went down one path, and was it Brian who has having other issues?"

Brian was having Brain issues.

catscradle77 said...
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agnostic monk said...

Salem said...
>>>the Beach Boys did something like a reunion on the beach in Ca and the same time Blue did some poetry reading up in and around Death Valley*<<<

Blue's poetry reading....

Roses are red
Violets are green
We killed all those pigs
To save the trees

Sorry Salem I couldn't resist. Just jokin around Don't be mad. :)

catscradle77 said...
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meatwad said...

Roses are red violets are green

Next time for a Manson film use

Charlie Sheen.

Denise

catscradle77 said...
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catscradle77 said...
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meatwad said...

Cat said,

"Okay did Denise pen that little diddy"

Yes, Denise Richards is channeling though me.

She says she loves you all. But Charlie is history.

agnostic monk said...

meatwad said...
>>>Roses are red violets are green

Next time for a Manson film use

Charlie Sheen.

Denise<<<


Charlie Sheen as Manson. Hmmm. I'm trying to figure out if that could work. He's too tall. Kind of like Clea Duvall was too tall to play Linda in the 2004 updated Helter Skelter.

catscradle77 said...
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agnostic monk said...

catscradle77 said...
>>>Roses are red
Daffodils are yellow
The Agnostic Monk
Put a harsh on my mellow...<<<


Roses are red
The fields filled with mist
Cats is a nice chick
Just don't get her pissed

:)

catscradle77 said...
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agnostic monk said...

catscradle77 said...
>>>But Sheen would make a beautiful Linda Kasabian--sorry Monk, I couldnt help myself..<<<


Why has no one produced a drag musical version of Helter Skelter?

Maybe I'll suggest it to some of our locals in the drag world. This is San Fran afterall.

:o

catscradle77 said...
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agnostic monk said...

catscradle77 said...
>>>I just see the fat Ricki Lake (with the Hairspray beehive)and Divine fighting to play Charlie..<<<

The late Divine would have played Rudi Altobelli. Ricki can audition for one of the cops or detectives. I'm afraid she cannot be trusted with such an important role as Charlie.

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agnostic monk said...

Joe said...
>>>>she said Sage called CM about the murders and THEN she went to LA to get the kid. Someone needs to check the trscpt.<<<

yes joe, I would really like to find out the final answer on the progression of events. I dont have access to that part of Linda's testimony.

If Joe Sage's timeline is accurate, it's possible that even if Tanya was not in Linda's custody at the time of the phone call to Spahn Ranch, perhaps Tanya was already in foster care? Sage said (above) that Linda didn't spill the beans about the murders until the end of her several weeks stay. That could mean the call wasn't made until after the Aug 16th raid so Tanya would have been safe from any perceived immediate danger from Charlie?

catscradle77 said...
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Joe said...

Monk: If Joe Sage's timeline is accurate, it's possible that even if Tanya was not in Linda's custody at the time of the phone call to Spahn Ranch, perhaps Tanya was already in foster care? Sage said (above) that Linda didn't spill the beans about the murders until the end of her several weeks stay. That could mean the call wasn't made until after the Aug 16th raid so Tanya would have been safe from any perceived immediate danger from Charlie?

She didn't find that out until AFTER Sage talked to CM. She had no way of knowing about the raid when she had Sage call CM to quiz him about the carnage.

Salem said...

: http://denniswilsonforever.wg-net.com/manson.html
interesting read.

agnostic monk said...

Joe said...
>>>>Monk: If Joe Sage's timeline is accurate, it's possible that even if Tanya was not in Linda's custody at the time of the phone call to Spahn Ranch, perhaps Tanya was already in foster care?

She didn't find that out until AFTER Sage talked to CM. She had no way of knowing about the raid when she had Sage call CM to quiz him about the carnage.<<<<


Joe, did Linda and Sage conference you in? Seems we have two different versions of how things went down, a statement by Joe Sage (a hippie with a confessed bad memory) and the esteemed historical scholar George Victor Bishop.

Yepyep said...
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Heaven said...

Col Scott, if you're around do you know if Dean Moorehouse is alive or dead...

Someone on the charliemanson forum said he's alive but Raven (who says he's her father) says he'd dead...

Does anyone know which it is?

Thanks

=)

Audio Magic said...
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Deb said...

The other thing about Dennis Wilson really liked besides booze and drugs was really young girls. I can't imagine he'd be too thrilled to testify that he slept with several under age girls when there was a whole nation watching the trial. Even then there would have been moral issues so that might have been one more reason to avoid the Bug and the cops.

I think he was very scared for himself and his son as well.

catscradle77 said...
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agnostic monk said...

catscradle77 said...
>>>Gonna have to check it out..thanks for the info.<<<

cats just be forewarned, no offense intended towards John Aes-Nihil, but the movie looks like it cost about three dollars to make in someone's living room, you will frequently see the same "actors" playing different roles, there are no lines voiced by the "actors", and it delves into a lot of rumor territory.

But it does look like they had a good time making it.

Somewhat historically inaccurate however because I dont recall seeing the Linda character ever wearing pigtails.

catscradle77 said...
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meatwad said...

Deb said,

"I think he was very scared for himself and his son as well."


Very true. At the time (or lots of times) Hollywood (including musicians for the argument) have done things they wanted to hide.

And most everyone was scared after TLB of either getting connected or losing face.

Steve Mcqueen raced over to Sebring's house to clean. Probably as much to protect the living (himself included) as much as dead.

catscradle77 said...
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meatwad said...

Cat said,

"would anyone really be that shocked about what was going on back then?"

Devil worship, S&M, drug connections?

Nah...nothing to be shocked about.

But studios do hire you based on your rep and insurableness.

catscradle77 said...
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agnostic monk said...

catscradle77 said...
>>>>I would tend to believe Rosemary's Baby raised a few eyebrows...and I can only imagine what Psycho did when it first hit the theatres..<<<

Rosemary's Baby did raise a lot of eyebrows: the kind with dollars signs in the eyes. It was a huge hit, and in the end that's what Hollywood really cares about.

Rosemary's Baby was a very shocking movie for it's time. It got overshadowed by the uproar over The Exorcist some 5 or 6 years later, but it was a very controversial and financially successful Hollywoood venture.

These days (and maybe I'm reaching here but not that much), I'd imagine being involved in a high-profile murder case might make for good publicity in one's show-biz career, judging from all the shameless reality television type stuff going on. No one knew who Kato Kalin was before OJ and that was only 12 years ago.

And to think, if Linda Kasabian was really the actress some claim she was, she could have had a career if the murders took place today. She'd be hosting "Hollywood's Scariest Places" for the E Channel or something.

Remember in the movie Network how even the Manson Familyish farmhouse militia got all caught up in the ratings of their show?

Sorry about this stream of consciousness but the media is really an interesting animal.

meatwad said...

Cat said,

"I can only imagine what Psycho did when it first hit the theatres.."

Probably made a lot of money, lol.

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meatwad said...

Cats said,

"Any insight into Linda's involvement in the whole thing?"

Not much. She seems to have saved her own skin at costs to others at times.

Good question would be, is she less complicit than others? Course not. Without the deal she would be sitting in jail.

She told enough truth or lies to get herself out of a jam.

I would not believe her if she said the sun would come up tomorrow.

catscradle77 said...
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meatwad said...

I dunno Cats.....

But too bad Dennis didnt live a full life. For one small reason because he could have shown some light here. Does anyone doubt that?

There has to be someone he shared this all with. Who could that be?

I feel bad when just about anybodies life is cut short.

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Heaven said...

http://www.onetruemedia.com/shared?p=5dd95d89b1e32d8cbfc25

Video I made today for the victims...

Enjoy!

agnostic monk said...

Oh Jesus, this again. Savage you can keep repeating your conspiracy theory that Linda was raped by Frykowski and that's why they went to the house, but that doesn't make it any more true.

Sending Linda to the car as a "lookout" never made sense to me either. In fact I'm not sure exactly where the idea of her being a "lookout" really came from, other than someone telling her to "listen for sounds".

As a lookout, she did a piss-poor job since she left her post the instant she heard screams. And when she DID tell them she heard people coming, they didn't listen to her. So what was the point of assigning her that job if they weren't going to listen to her?

There are A LOT of things about this case bubbling beneath the surface, and as much fun as it is to bandy about theories, the truth is folks that sometimes a cigar TRULY IS JUST A CIGAR.

My belief; She was sent back to the car because Tex didn't trust her to do anything other than wait. Why didn't he trust her when he had brought her that far? Because watching Stephen Parent get shot in the head freaked her out.

I'll maintain that belief until I see actual proof telling me otherwise. If I do see that proof, I'll be the first to ammend my belief.

agnostic monk said...

and cats, the drivers license thing DOES make sense to me. If Mary wasn't in jail, it would have been Mary and not Linda, because Mary had a license and was a much more loyal and longer-term member of the group.

It makes perfect sense to me that they would want someone along with a drivers license in case they got stopped. Having no licensed driver in the car would have been a big strike against them had they been stopped by police to or from - even if the licensed driver was not doing all the driving.

Heaven said...

I personally think Linda was sent back to the car cause she was freaking out about Steven being murdered right before her eyes.

Nothing more, nothing less. This bullshit about Linda being raped by Voyteck, is just that. Bullshit....

agnostic monk said...

Heaven said...
>>>http://www.onetruemedia.com/shared?p=5dd95d89b1e32d8cbfc25

Video I made today for the victims...

Enjoy!<<

Awe, Heaven, what are ya tryin to do, make me cry????!!!!!!

Heaven said...

lol

I forgot to tell ya to turn your volume up

Heaven said...

OOOO

Snipe!!

=)

Heaven said...

Savage said

"There was one comment that Manson made "After" the group returned from the Tate house where Sadie told him what happened and Manson said something like "You dumb bitch, you just sent me back to prison". This leads me to think that Manson was not aware that Murder was going to be committed."

Yeah, I forgot, Manson is just such a truthful guy..

Actually, others testified that Manson was pissed that they didn't kill everyone on the whole street.

Manson was SO disturbed by what the kids did the night before that we went along the next night and tied up the LaBianca's..

But, if Manson did call Susan a dumb bitch, for once I'll agree with him..

=)

agnostic monk said...

Heaven said...
>>>>But, if Manson did call Susan a dumb bitch, for once I'll agree with him..<<<

LOL, Heaven. MEEEEOOOOWWWW!

:)

closed blog said...
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agnostic monk said...

Savage RDDB-DA said...
>>>>A certain girl<<<<

Savage, what makes you think that all those people weren't just as prone to rumor and gossip than any other clique of friends?

And don't you find it all a TAD BIT CURIOUS that the one person who was the most damaging to the Family on the witness stand winds up with fingers pointed right back at her by Family members? I mean it's so convenient that they would try to make her seem more involved than she really was that it's almost comical.

agnostic monk said...

Savage said...
>>>>>I have no reason to believe that this is not true. It certainly does seem to explain alot and it certainly fits into what was going on at the time.<<<<

If fits into what was going on IF you really really WANT it to fit.

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agnostic monk said...

Savage RDDB-DA said...
>>>>They were at one with themselves and they were in a position where making something up just wouldn't make sense.<<<<

Huh?

agnostic monk said...

Savage RDDB-DA said...
>>>>I think the man that runs the Abounding Love Minisitries could shed alot of light on Linda's involvement.<<<<

Well the man has spoken about her and he pretty much backs up everything she said. I realize no one (including me) really trusts him on anything though. But he really never had any reason to lie about Linda and cover up for her. The man is sitting in jail for life and he's gonna cover things up for Linda who is running around free? That goes for ALL the jailed killers. I can't believe for one second that we wouldn't have heard these conspiracy theories years ago, were they true. I cannot imagine Susan Atkins or Patricia Krenwinkle or Leslie Van Houten not coming out with this stuff about Linda years ago. What, is Linda really the secret Svengali who is pulling the strings behind the scenes? C'mon.

>>>>It would be very interesting to see if Tex would be willing to take a lie detector test concerning Linda's involvment. I think it bring a number of things up to the surface.<<<

Not that it would ever happen, but I think if they were all forced to take lie detector tests, Linda's involvement would be the LEAST of the interesting things that would surface.

Salem said...

wb Savage
*It would be very interesting to see if Tex would be willing to take a lie detector test concerning Linda's involvment. I think it bring a number of things up to the surface.

esp the night of the Tate Killings.

Salem said...

I would like to hear more about or from Greg Jacobson as thats where Dennis left and stayed after he moved out of his home, and CM had threatened Dennis's son.

Salem said...

Savage says*The one piece that i'm fuzzy on is whether or not Manson himself actually told Tex to go to the Tate house and do what he did. I still believe that it was Tex himself that took the girls there to settle it. There was one comment that Manson made "After" the group returned from the Tate house where Sadie told him what happened and Manson said something like "You dumb bitch, you just sent me back to prison". This leads me to think that Manson was not aware that Murder was going to be committed. Did Manson think that Tex and the others were going there to "Rough Up" Frykowski to pay him back for the drug burn and for what he did to Linda, who was one of "his" girls?

Tex had the murderous rage in him and he was very close to Linda.

I totally agree. I think Watson was in total command that night.

Salem said...

I believe it primarily because of where they were at the time. They were in the desert, alone, isolated. They were at one with themselves and they were in a position where making something up just wouldn't make sense. I have no doubt that there was some inside talk amongst the girls and that's how the person i know came to know of what happened. Mind you that not everyone was in the know.

I think Leslie overheard what happened and she went the next night to *get her hands dirty so she wouldnt snitch about what she heard.
jmho

ColScott said...

I believe Dean is alive

agnostic monk said...

Salem said...
>>>I think Leslie overheard what happened and she went the next night to *get her hands dirty so she wouldnt snitch about what she heard.<<<

Hi Salem, do you believe Leslie when she says that Charlie asked her to go along? According to her he said to her something along the lines of "Do you believe in what I say enough to know how important this is?"

Do you think she's lying?

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agnostic monk said...

Savage RDDB-DA said...
>>>Stephen Kay once stated to the parole board that during his cross examination of Leslie during her 2nd or possibly 3rd trial that she weighed and considered for 2 days whether or not she could commit murder even before Manson or anyone else asked her to go.<<<<

Well that sure is interesting. If it was two days then it was even before the Tate night. I wonder about the context of her internal deliberation. Were people talking about going out to commit murder? Was she thinking about it within the context of the copycat motive (i.e. "can I do this to save Bobby")?

I would love to know exactly the conversations and events that led her to debate within herself if she could in fact kill.

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Heaven said...

Thanks Col Scott.....

Savage,

I'm just going to let you have your opinions without debating with you. Like Monk said, if you want the pieces to fit together badly enough, they will. But it doesn't make it true..

This has been rehashed so many times that I just don't have the energy to rehash again..

=)

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Heaven said...

I think when Tex announced that everyone was going to die, he didn't expect the reaction he got. Apparently he expected them to just be ok with it lol

Once Voyteck heard he was going to die, he freaked out, as anyone would do..

Why the towel? Damn good question...

Why did Tex bring such a shitty gun? Why did Patricia bring a knife with the handle taped on?

There was no thought put into this, they just grabbed and went.
That's probably why Manson tied the LaBianca's up, so no one could go running outside like they did at the Tate house. Neighbors were a bit closer to each other in the LaBianca neighborhood...

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Pristash said...

It was something like 41 feet of rope, right? Certainly enough to string up a piggy or two...

Deb said...

Cats cradle 77 said:


>>>How old is really young and how old was he? Sorry, Cat have been off line - til tonight.

I know (I read) he was seeing his last wife when she was like 15-16 and she had a baby and they eventually got married when she was 18. She was the illegitimate daughter of Mike Love, which didn't improve Mike's and Dennis' relationship.

Deb said...

Sorry Catcradle, I think Dennis was in his 40s by then or at least late 30s.

Deb

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Salem said...

Why did Patricia bring a knife with the handle taped on?

that knife was Linda's knife if i recall. Didnt one of the girls lose the buck knife and go back and get the one with tape on it, that Linda had?

Salem said...

savage says
The one piece that i'm fuzzy on is whether or not Manson himself actually told Tex to go to the Tate house and do what he did. I still believe that it was Tex himself that took the girls there to settle it. There was one comment that Manson made "After" the group returned from the Tate house where Sadie told him what happened and Manson said something like "You dumb bitch, you just sent me back to prison". This leads me to think that Manson was not aware that Murder was going to be committed. Did Manson think that Tex and the others were going there to "Rough Up" Frykowski to pay him back for the drug burn and for what he did to Linda, who was one of "his" girls?

To my understanding, Melcher told Tex to go to Tates , as he could double the money on drugs that VF had.
I do not think CM was involved til later that night. Tex and Linda got burned at Tates and to calm Linda down, Abby gave Linda a line or 2 of some *stuff*, it was VF, that threatened Linda when she and Tex came back after several hours of waiting on the deal. Linda was gonna call the cops and VF made a comment like, *who's gonna believe YOU! The cops would not beleive you dirty hippie types over US!*
jmho

Salem said...

hi Monk
Hi Salem, do you believe Leslie when she says that Charlie asked her to go along? According to her he said to her something along the lines of "Do you believe in what I say enough to know how important this is?"

Do you think she's lying?

No I think she was telling the truth.

Salem said...

Like I have said before
If they all would just stand up in parole hearings and take the blame themselves instead of blaming everything on Charlie things may go differently.
Peace

Salem said...

that knife was Linda's knife if i recall. Didnt one of the girls lose the buck knife and go back and get the one with tape on it, that Linda had?

and later lost the one with tape on it also.
seems thats why people went back, to clean up and find lost items and to leave false clues.

Salem said...

Hi Audio:)
Also, if Leslie was so repulsed by the thought of stabbing someone, but Tex ordered her to get her hands dirty in order to be accepted, why plunge a knife into Rosemary's lower back 16 times, when once or twice would have gotten her hands dirty, and she would have been accepted into the inner circle.

I guess Tex made sure Leslie did as much stabbing as the others so she would be very *dirty*.
:(
Peace
me

Salem said...

Was Tex that covincing or was Leslie more blood thirsty than she admits at her parole hearings. Also, who pronounced Rosemary LaBianca dead at the time Leslie stabbed her. (other than Leslie, I mean)

hey
I think Tex was a madman and I think he put very much pressure on Leslie.
I agree at the time Leslie stabbed her ( Rosemary) Leslie didnt know if she was dead are alive, I guess she assumed it by the knife stabs she had? I dont know.

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