There is a maxim in jurisprudence- "Don't blame the victim" but when you stop for a second the maxim isn't true. Legally at least. Often times it IS the fault of the victim. Look at cases of spousal abuse, scumbag husbands killed by their wives. That could get a killer a free pass. Or look at the Robert Blake case. A huge part of the defense was that "the bitch deserved it." I'm just saying it happens all the time, and the saying is inaccurate. Like "A fool and their money are soon parted." I know a lot of rich fools.
Anyways....
I still spend a lot of time looking at what happened to Gary Hinman. Yes, because I consider Bobby a friend. But also because that's where it all started to go wrong. No Hinman slaying could have, arguably, led to no TLB.
Let's outline it for discussion and maybe carry it forward on three or four posts.
1- The Family knew Gary. Mary had stayed with him at his house. They, and other youth, stayed at Gary's place.
2- Gary, if not gay, was at least bisexual and used his music teaching business as a cover to provide drugs and meet boys.
3- Bobby was bisexual and considered Gary a friend. Bobby and some of the girls would get drugs off Gary.
4- Bobby bought some mescaline for the Straight Satans off Gary in order to raise some money for the group's band, The Family Jam.
5- The Satans claim it is bad drugs. They do not return it but demand their money back.
6- Bobby tells Charlie because the Bikers threaten the ranch. Charlie send Bobby, Sadie and Mary to get the money.
6b- alt version which I doubt- Gary owes Ranch money, has inherited some, Charlie sends kids to get the money by theft.
7- Mission goes horribly awry. Gary tied up and beaten. Charlie called.
8- THIS IS THE POINT WE NEED TO SPEND TIME ON, CLASS- Charlie shows up and makes shit worse, lopping his sword at Gary's face.
9- Charlie leaves- Bobby/Sadie/Mary continue to threaten and abuse to get the money. Gary promised to go to the police.
10 - Gary mounts a last ditch effort for freedom. Bobby stabs. Girls clean up. Writing on walls.
It's a pretty good summary if I do say so myself.
So first off, was there a drug burn?
I believe so.
Were the drugs bad?
Maybe. Mescaline goes off easily.
Did Gary deserve to die?
Of course not.
But I do believe, in this sole case, that Charlie pushed or ordered Bobby to go over there.
I do believe that Charlie made things go much worse than they had to by cutting the guy's face.
I do believe that Charlie pushed for the killing when Bobby called him after the sword attack.
Seems to me Charlie WANTED Gary dead.
I wonder why?
42 comments:
Here we go again ..... Today's Ebay Specials:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7404930309&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
This one starts at $4,000.00
I noticed this seller has no feed back score at all.. I just wonder who this seller could be
Notice that the eaby seller only wants a money order /or cashier check
Should I asks this seller a question ..like how they got the drawing ..
Just curious Salem but why do you consider bisexual folks specifically to be amoral? I thought you were a hippie, and that love was love and sex wasn't bad? Is it possible that you are holding his bisexuality against him because you already have a grudge against him and it's convenient to sling "butt-pirate" insults at him?
Col Said:
"9- Charlie leaves- Bobby/Sadie/Mary continue to threaten and abuse to get the money. Gary promised to go to the police."
He promised to go to the police? Or did he promise not to go to the police? I'm thinking if he promised to go to the police, I would have killed him too. Just out of panic. But I'm thinking he promised not to go to the police.
Col Said:
"9- Charlie leaves- Bobby/Sadie/Mary continue to threaten and abuse to get the money. Gary promised to go to the police."
He promised to go to the police? Or did he promise not to go to the police? I'm thinking if he promised to go to the police, I would have killed him too. Just out of panic. But I'm thinking he promised not to go to the police.
I understand as ..hinman would go to the police.
Bunnies ,
I work with a guy ..he says he is trisexuel
he thinks it so funny
ChasingBunnies said...
>>>>Maybe she thinks that having sex with both genders is disgusting. I do. There is NO WAY I'd go down on some girl!<<<<
That's fine but she used the word "amoral", not "disgusting". I just found it curious that she doesn't seem to have a problem with gays but does have a problem with bisexuals (which it turns out she's just blowing off steam hence her follow-up post).
>>>>Not EVERY hippy was a so-called bisexual.<<<<
I never said they were, but they tended to have more open attitudes about sexuality than say I dont know your average *establishment pig*.
>>>>Maybe she prefers men sexually>>>>
Again I wasn't really asking her about her own sex life. I was asking about her attitude towards other people who claim to be bisexual.
>>>You watch too much porn and listen to too much Howard Stern.<<<<
No, actually I don't watch enough. LOL, Or really any for that matter.
>>>I wouldn't want to marry some dude who had sex in the same place as a man deficates. To me that oriface is EXIT ONLY.<<<<
Um, not all bisexual and gay men engage in anal sex. And there are heteros who do. And again, Salem wasn't saying that she prefers to not have sex with bisexuals, she was saying that she thinks they are amoral. That has nothing to do with her personal sex life. I'm not sure why you feel the need to share details about yours either.
>>>Plus it's not natural.<<<<
I'm not even touching that loaded rhetoric.
>>>>Would you be happy if your teenage son was bisexual and taking and giving it in the butt and then giving it to some girl. (your daughter for rxample) E-COLI CITY! Not to mention HIV. How about your daughtter? Huh? Would you want your beautiful daughter to act like that? Talk about no class.<<<<<
So, being bisexual automatically means being promiscuous and a cheater? I know bisexual people (or at least people who call themselves that) and the one's I know don't tend to be any more promiscuous or cheaters than heteros.
>>>>>Now, I lived in a gay area for 18 years, and I have no problem with gays and have gay friends and it's not my business what folks do in their back yard. But, I don't want to hear it and I DON'T UNDERSTAND why people define themselves by gender orientation. Why do bisexuals need to let everyone know that they are bi? Frankly, you are either gay or straight. Bisexuals are emotionally strung out people and very unhappy. i's need to make up their minds. This is just MHO.<<<<
Wow, I'm drowning in generalizations and don't know where to start!!!!
I never should have brought this up, I should have known it would just stir up fights.
Salem
It sure looks like it is Nuel Emmons
I just emailed the guy a question ..see if I get a answer.
No feedback score and he only wants Money order/Cashier check
Salem,
Like Savage says no one going to buy something off Ebay when the seller has no feed back score
You have no idea if you will get the item.
Plus this person will not take credit cards ..because that cost money to set up.to take credit cards.
He just wants the quick buck and no trail.. who he is
Savage,
I did get a answer back from the guy
Savage,
I don't think his items on EBay will sell simply for the fact that his '0' feedback code is a red flag and his payment method is very limited.
If he wants to keep it discreet, he should approach Mark Turner and work out some kind of arrangement to offer the items on his website.
For that kind of money, any buyer needs to be assured that the seller is legitimate.
Yes I asked him what prove he had..it was from Charlie.. for that kind of money and no feed back .
His answer
i have hundreds of letters from Charles Manson and 3 hours on footage as well. In a letter he talks about his self portrait. I have no other proof.
Savage
You said once that Mark Turner was involved in Debra Tate board
Is that true
Savage,
He put together this website for Sharon .... note that it looks similar to Dennis Rice's "Manson2jesus" site.
Debra's name is at the bottom as she must have given him many of the pictures so this project looks like a joint collaberation.
Thank You Savage very intresting ..Looks like I better send the Col a email.. Telling him I was wrong
Mark Turner and Debra Tate have had some kind of "Working Relationship" and it was always my belief that Turner was very down on anyone who he viewed as "Sympathetic" to any of those involved in the crimes because of his connection to Debra.
I'm sure that he could get a message to her if he wanted to so you have to be *very* careful what you say over there on his board.
You don't want to have anything you say get taken out of
context :-)
You know I always defended Debra Tate ..I felt so bad for her..I thought you guys were picking on her.
But Now I wonder about her
Savage ,
I usually don't like to involve myself in family matters. Debra obviously had issues with her Mom and Patti and that's really their business.
I respect Debra in terms of losing her sister and I do feel for what she went through, but i just get the feeling that her intentions are not what they seem.
Well Savage I am starting to question her intentions also.
Like you I did not want to involve my self in family issues ..I just thought what is that any one business.
I don't see any of the other victim's families trying to cash in the Tate/Labianca murders.
All I ever read about her ..she did not like her sister name said in the same sentence as Charlie Manson..but she would use his name to sell out her sister.
As far as the star..I loved Sharon but she did not have that kind of career ..to get a star .
I am sure there are other ways of honoring her.
Roman got all that money from vanity fair ..let him pay if Sharon ever got the Star..Sharon was his wife ..I am sure he could pay.
Here is the link about Debra getting hurt
http://www.exorthodoxforchrist.com/devil_on_her_heels.htm
Savage , I do not know what I did wrong here is the story
LOS ANGELES - May 31, 2004 - (ANS) -- It was just before her 17th birthday when cult followers of Charles Manson launched their demonic rampage that left her sister and four others dead. Thirty-five years later, she continues her fight to keep the perpetrators behind bars—several of whom are born-again Christians—while struggling to overcome tragedies that continue to haunt her life. (Pictured: Sharon Tate).
“It seems like evil is hot on my heels,” says Debra Tate, 51, the younger sister of Sharon Tate. As a postal employee, Debra was injured four years ago by a bomb placed in a mailbox near a Christian college in Southern California. The explosion—apparently unrelated to the Manson family crimes--ruptured three vertebrae in her neck, leaving her in constant pain, with numbness on her left side. “God made me tough,” Tate says. “I will keep doing what I’m doing until I can’t.” (Pictured: Debra Tate, accepting an award in 2001 on behalf of her sister, from the Motion Picture Council).
Debra’s mother, Doris Tate, was one of the pioneers of the victims’ rights movement before her death from brain cancer in 1992. Then sister Patti took up the banner until she died in 2000 from breast cancer. Debra is the only family member left to fight the battles. Her father, Colonel Paul Tate, who served throughout the world in Army Intelligence, became a very private person after the tragedy and is reportedly “barely alive.”
So she continues her lonesome crusade—carrying on her mother’s work--by attending parole hearings, organizing letter-writing campaigns, and fighting to ensure violent offenders are not released back into society—or able to profit from their crimes.
Debra was the first family member to actually attend one of Charles Manson’s parole hearings. “He doesn’t scare me,” Tate says. “It shocked him I was there. He was all the way up to the entrance to the parole hearing and could see me through the glass,” she says. “He decided not to come into the room.”
Growing up, Debra and her sister were “army brats,” moving to various parts of the world following their father’s career. “Sharon and I were extremely close,” Tate says. Because Sharon was ten-years older, she had a mother’s influence on Debra, taking her to the park, teaching her to roller-skate, and nurturing her in heartfelt ways. (Pictured: Early picture of Debra Tate).
In the early days of Sharon’s Hollywood career she had small parts on “The Beverly Hillbillies,” Mr. Ed,” “Man from U.N.C.L.E” and was cast for a short period on Petticoat Junction. Sharon also auditioned for the role of Liesl in “The Sound of Music,” along with Mia Farrow, Lesley Ann Warren, and Patty Duke, but Charmian Carr got the part.
After dating Hollywood hairstylist Jay Sebring for a time, Sharon became attached to film director Roman Polanski during the filming of “The Fearless Vanpire Killers,” a spoof of the vampire genre. In 1968 Polanski proposed to Sharon in London, and their “mod wedding” was covered by press from around the world. Polanski originally wanted Sharon for the lead in “Rosemary’s Baby,” but chose Mia Farrow instead. Tate went on to make such films as “Valley of the Dolls,” “Wrecking Crew,” and “Don't Make Waves.”
Sharon learned she was pregnant toward the end of 1968, and while she was excited, she was worried about telling her husband. “I was with Sharon when she found out she was pregnant,” Tate says. “Roman had a negative reaction at first,” she says. “He was concerned about her career because she was just getting her momentum as an actress.”
With a child on the way, the Polanskis began to look for a larger home and found one in the Benedict Canyon area of Bel-Air--a beautiful ranch style home with a pool and guesthouse. The previous tenants were Candice Bergen and Terry Melcher, the son of Doris Day. In February 1969 the Polanskis moved into the house Sharon would call her "love house".
As Sharon’s star ascended in Hollywood, a career-criminal named Charles Manson was released on probation from prison. By the age of 13 his mother decided she wanted nothing to do with him and put Manson into a foster home, which he ran away from and began living on the streets, supporting himself by stealing cars, passing stolen checks, and credit card fraud. Most of his adult life was spent in and out of prison.
Upon his release in 1967 Manson moved to San Francisco, where his deranged but magnetic personality was able to attract a group of followers often referred to as “the family.” Then he moved to Southern California where he and his group took over the Spahn movie ranch in Chatsworth, where western films were once shot.
Manson fancied himself as a budding rock and roll musician, and began trying to put together his own record album. His teaching—and lyrics—were inspired by the Beatles “White Album” and the Book of Revelation. He taught his followers a race war and nuclear attack was imminent.
“Manson wanted Terry Melcher to produce an album he recorded,” Tate says. “Melcher had made quite a few stars as a record producer,” she says. Manson didn’t receive the reception he hoped for from Melcher.
“Terry Melcher was extremely blunt and told him where to jump off,” Tate says. “Manson’s master plan was to use that money to fund a race war he was going to start--that was ‘Helter Skelter.’ He figured after everyone killed each other, that would leave him all powerful,” she says.
Manson’s twisted plans were momentarily stymied by Melcher—and feeling snubbed--Manson began to plot his revenge. Originally “they were looking for Terry Melcher,” Tate says. “He and Candice Bergen of Murphy Brown fame rented the house,” she says. When Manson discovered they moved out he formulated an alternate plan.
“Manson knew Melcher and Bergen didn’t live there any more,” Tate notes. “But he figured the people in the house were like them—young and successful—and that’s all that mattered. The location represented something distasteful to him.”
On the day of the murders, Debra Tate was planning to visit her sister. Despite the 10-year age gap, Debra had been welcomed into Sharon’s circle of friends. “That evening I was supposed to go up there and pick up a saddle Sharon brought back to me from Europe,” Tate recalls. When Debra’s ride, a friend named Johnny Glick, showed up at the door with two strangers, she called Sharon, who was eight and a half months pregnant at the time.
“She was hugely pregnant and very uncomfortable, as women get just before delivery,” Tate says. “I knew how miserable she was, and I knew these other people would probably not be a good idea, so I gave her a courtesy call.”
As Debra expected, Sharon told her not to come. “She didn’t feel like getting dressed up and putting on makeup.”
Sharon had only been home a few weeks. She had been in London promoting the release of the film "Twelve Plus One". Then she boarded the Queen Elizabeth II and sailed to the U.S., arriving on July 20. Roman stayed behind in London to finish work on “Day of the Dolphin” and then planned to join her in L.A. for the birth of their child.
Debra has managed to stay in touch with Polanski through the years and considers him a good friend. “Roman is absolutely brilliant,” Tate says. “He was raised in the Jewish ghetto in Warsaw and his mother and sister were killed in front of him,” she says, noting the movie, “The Pianist,” is loosely based on his life. “Sharon loved him dearly.”
With Roman away, Sharon invited several friends over for the evening. Those present that night included Abigail Folger, heiress to the Folger coffee fortune, and her boyfriend, Wojciech Frykowski, a Polish national befriended by Polanski. Hollywood hairdresser Jay Sebring, Sharon’s former lover, was also there. Another friend, Jozy Pollock, was invited to come over, but stayed away due to a migraine headache.
At 12:30 a.m. on August 9, all hell broke loose as the Manson family invaded the home and launched their murderous attack with buck knives and .22 caliber weapons, killing everyone inside. According to testimony at the trial, Sharon pleaded for the life of her unborn child but received no mercy. Manson did not take part in the actual killings that night, but stayed behind at the Spahn ranch, sending his followers out to do his bidding.
“Manson said, ‘Do something witchy,’ but he didn’t tell them how,” Tate says. “It was up to them to come up with the torture and degradation that went on that night.”
Debra views her absence from the murders as “an intervention” by God. “Someone had to be left behind to fight this evil,” she says. Debra was raised Catholic and “believes very much in God, but not organized religion. I am Christian and live a Christian life. I do for others on a daily basis,” she says.
The fact that several of the Manson family members have become born-again Christians does not give them a right to rejoin the ranks of society, she believes. “Susan Atkins and Tex Watkins are both using religious people as their supporters,” Tate notes. “I call it playing the God card. If they were good Christians they wouldn’t ask to come out.”
Tate fails to see any sign convincing her they deserve a second chance. “They don’t show any personal responsibility. They haven’t made atonement to any one of my family members,” she says. “I’m happy they’ve found Christ, but leave them in their controlled environment.”
“I think all these people are demon-possessed,” Tate says. “I think Charlie is criminally insane. He’s very brilliant, and sociopaths are very charming also—that’s one of their gifts. They think they have a right to do whatever they want to do.”
Sadly, a new generation of young people is following Charles Manson. His web-site receives 60,000 hits per year, according to Tate, and he’s sold artwork, guitars, and other memorabilia to his fans. “There are a whole lot of people out there who think Manson is cool and his enemies are their enemies,” Tate says.
The rock group Marilyn Manson borrowed his name in a macabre form of tribute, and the group Nine Inch Nails even lived in the house where the murders took place, and recorded songs in praise of Manson. “Guns and Roses did one of his original songs,” Tate notes. “Because he did what he did based on creating a race war all the white supremacists are on his side.”
“It’s a huge mess,” she says. To fight back, she established a web site-- www.tatelegacy.com, which provides information about parole hearings and legislative updates for those who support the cause of victims’ rights. Thirty-five years after the murders, she remains confident justice will prevail and good will triumph.
There is one hopeful sign God is reclaiming ground in the sad affair: the former Spahn movie ranch, where Manson plotted his crimes, is under new ownership. The Church at Rocky Peak—a vibrant, growing church—bought the property several years ago. “The property where Manson hung out is dedicated to ministering to young people,” says Dave MacKerron, executive pastor at the church.
Last week, 600 middle school-age young people swarmed over the former ranch. “We had sharing about the Lord—the total opposite of what Manson was selling,” Pastor MacKerron says. Many young people attending the recent activity made decisions to follow Jesus Christ.
“It’s gone from evil to sharing that Jesus is the answer—not Satan. Jesus changes lives for the better; Satan changes lives for the worse.”
Mark Ellis is a Senior Correspondent for ASSIST News Service. He is also an assistant pastor in Laguna Beach, CA.
Savage,
Interesting Article though
Yes it is intresting I just send the Col email I just hope he does not give me another entry
But when I am wrong I admit it
Savage,
60skid:
>It’s gone from evil to sharing that Jesus is the answer—not Satan. Jesus changes lives for the better; Satan changes lives for the worse.” <
Sounds like "2 legs bad, 4 legs good".
I wonder what the pastor would say about the Process Church and Reconciliation between Christ and the Devil in the End of Days ....
"Christ to Judge and Satan to execute the Judgement"
Yes I wonder about that too But also intresting Debra says she is Christian ..But at Susan last parole hearing ..Debra played up being Catholic
Savage,
That one's from the "Abbey Road" Album :-)
Yes I know I like The Abbey Road album
I listen to the Beatles and trandional county music
I got a thing for cowboys.
Salem ,
When I wrote back and asked this ebay seller where the footage was shot and and if he was Nuel Emmons
Here is his reply
THE FOOTAGE IS OF AN INTERVIEW HE HAS DONE WITH ME AT CORCORAN STATE PRISON. THE NEST HE HAS EVER DONE.
Savage,
Susan is at peace with god. She's not screaming out loud as far as I know.
You'd get written up for that kind of thing at CIW :-)
I read she got wrote up once for touching her husband..I do not know if that true
You can't get away with too much in the visiting room. It depends on the guards that are there and it depends on how crowded the area is at the time.
They also do "Counts" during visiting hours so you have to take a break and wait for the girls to come back in from the outside patio area.
a guy I work with did 6 and half years in prision ..so he has told me a lot of what it was like
Savage,
It's still hard to think of someone growing up there and thinking about all that they missed out on in life.
There's no escaping the reality of their world
I do not think I would want there life for anything ..you wait from one parole hearing til the next
Maybe Leslie will get a date in August ..a lot people think it looks good for her this year.
It must be sad visiting them also. Knowing your leaving and they are not.
Also the poor parents that have to visit their children knowing there is nothing they can do.
60skid:
>It must be sad visiting them also. Knowing your leaving and they are not.<
That was the hardest part for me and i walked away feeling completely numb by the time i got to my car in the parking lot.
I looked back and i could see her waving to me from the window and i swear i nearly broke down.
It was the hardest thing in the world to deal with and i didn't sleep that well that night when i was back at the hotel.
I just felt so empty inside. I saw her for the last time that Sunday and went home on Tuesday and I
just felt like a part of me died. It was very hard going back home knowing that she was still there
Savage , I do not know what to say ..but I can understand how you felt knowing you were going back to your life ..and she had no life.
I am sure you felt helpless for being able to do noting for her.
But in you way you are doing what you can ..by visiting and supporting her and writing to her
I just seen the time ..I will be back at 9
Salem said...
>>>BTW MONK
DONT NIT PIC WITH ME ANYMORE. I WILL JUST IGNORE YA.<<<<
Salem I wasn't nit-picking with you. I was nit-picking with ChasingBunnies re: her bisexual screech that was loaded with generalities.
:)
I mean generalizations
Savage ,
I have a imporant messege for you .How can I get it to you ?
Savage,
Leaving her there was like watching a part of me die. I try not to think about it because it still hurts me but sometimes I just can't help it.
I sat at work and thought about what you said about leaving there that day..
I feel so bad .. please let me know if I can help in any way.I really mean that..from the bottom of my heart
Savage ,
Chat Lynn55
any chatters
Savage,
go to chat
savage ,
I'm sorry for getting a little emotional earlier. I've been a little depressed myself and my mind was back on the west coast :-)
It is not problem I do understand now .
How do you do it
Bunnies
Email me ok
ChasingBunnies said...
>>>>Monk...everyone generalizes. Sad but true. You generalized all hippies. Not all hippies accepted everything with a bong hit, a "that's cool" a shrug and a peace sign. However, you may nit-pick with me anytime ;)
lol<<<<
Perhaps I was generalizing. I'm sure I'll be guilty of it again sometime soon. But the fact is, IMHO, your generalizations were way over the top.
Saying hippies back in the day leaned towards being more open about sexuality than your average late 60's joe schmoe is not quite the same thing as saying that bisexuals in general are speed-freaks and emotionally damaged.
At least IMHO.
:)
You said it all in a nutshell. I believe Bobby is sick with the Hiv virus he's in a medical facility
You said it all in a nutshell. I believe Bobby is sick with the Hiv virus he's in a medical facility
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