Thursday, April 06, 2006

Nam Ryenge Ho Part ONE


There is a maxim in jurisprudence- "Don't blame the victim" but when you stop for a second the maxim isn't true. Legally at least. Often times it IS the fault of the victim. Look at cases of spousal abuse, scumbag husbands killed by their wives. That could get a killer a free pass. Or look at the Robert Blake case. A huge part of the defense was that "the bitch deserved it." I'm just saying it happens all the time, and the saying is inaccurate. Like "A fool and their money are soon parted." I know a lot of rich fools.

Anyways....

I still spend a lot of time looking at what happened to Gary Hinman. Yes, because I consider Bobby a friend. But also because that's where it all started to go wrong. No Hinman slaying could have, arguably, led to no TLB.

Let's outline it for discussion and maybe carry it forward on three or four posts.

1- The Family knew Gary. Mary had stayed with him at his house. They, and other youth, stayed at Gary's place.
2- Gary, if not gay, was at least bisexual and used his music teaching business as a cover to provide drugs and meet boys.
3- Bobby was bisexual and considered Gary a friend. Bobby and some of the girls would get drugs off Gary.
4- Bobby bought some mescaline for the Straight Satans off Gary in order to raise some money for the group's band, The Family Jam.
5- The Satans claim it is bad drugs. They do not return it but demand their money back.
6- Bobby tells Charlie because the Bikers threaten the ranch. Charlie send Bobby, Sadie and Mary to get the money.
6b- alt version which I doubt- Gary owes Ranch money, has inherited some, Charlie sends kids to get the money by theft.
7- Mission goes horribly awry. Gary tied up and beaten. Charlie called.
8- THIS IS THE POINT WE NEED TO SPEND TIME ON, CLASS- Charlie shows up and makes shit worse, lopping his sword at Gary's face.
9- Charlie leaves- Bobby/Sadie/Mary continue to threaten and abuse to get the money. Gary promised to go to the police.
10 - Gary mounts a last ditch effort for freedom. Bobby stabs. Girls clean up. Writing on walls.

It's a pretty good summary if I do say so myself.

So first off, was there a drug burn?
I believe so.
Were the drugs bad?
Maybe. Mescaline goes off easily.
Did Gary deserve to die?
Of course not.

But I do believe, in this sole case, that Charlie pushed or ordered Bobby to go over there.
I do believe that Charlie made things go much worse than they had to by cutting the guy's face.
I do believe that Charlie pushed for the killing when Bobby called him after the sword attack.

Seems to me Charlie WANTED Gary dead.

I wonder why?

128 comments:

catscradle77 said...
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Salem said...

why would charlie want hinman dead?
Bobby would be traced back to the ranch...
ya think CM wanted Bobby in jail?

closed blog said...
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closed blog said...
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Salem said...

:(
ANOTHER SELL OUT.

catscradle77 said...
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Salem said...

Bobby Beausoleil is a butt pirate, and a drug dealing murderer. He was probably doin the old fudge hole boogie with Gary Hinman. Kenneth Anger was in love with BB's little brown ring too. You see there are gay men and then there are people who have absolutely no boudries who call themselves bisexual. Which to me means amoral You're right about one thing if Stupid Cupid hadn't murdered Hinman the TLB murders may never have happened.

So he believed the bikers when they said they didn't like the mescaline. lol! Could it be that the bikers were Effing with Bo-bo's head, and just scaring the little creep? I think Bo-Bo made that shit up. Sorry, but I have nothing but disdain for old Bobby...he just pisses me off with his girly looks, bad teeth and all those zits. He's a runty little bastard, too and Charlie's main squeeze. He goes running to Charlie because the bikers are after him oh my!

In fact his art sucks. Susan Atkins (whom I hate just as much) is artistically more talented than that pig-effer. Plus, why did everyone on the street call him 'Bummer Bob.' EF him! I hope he rots in prison along with Charlie. If he is bisexual then how did he escape HIV and Hep-C in prison? His music sounds like the shit you hear in bad porn movies.

Salem said...

i meant susan not charlie.

chasingbunnies said...

yu mean susan, salem don't you

Salem said...

ChasingBunnies said...
yu mean susan, salem don't you

yes sorry*

Salem said...

they all have to blame CM Cat:(

chasingbunnies said...

Still would the Straight Satans have killed Hinman because of some shitty mescaline? They may have beaten him to a bloody pulp perhaps-doubt the would've tortured him for days, stolen his car and left him decomposing like Bo-Bo did. What BB did was *ucked up and then he goes running to Charlie..."Oh Charles, oh Charles the bikers are after the ranch--oh me oh my help me" thats a load of crap!!!!!

catscradle77 said...
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catscradle77 said...
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60skid said...

Here we go again ..... Today's Ebay Specials:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7404930309&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

This one starts at $4,000.00



I noticed this seller has no feed back score at all.. I just wonder who this seller could be

60skid said...

Notice that the eaby seller only wants a money order /or cashier check
Should I asks this seller a question ..like how they got the drawing ..

catscradle77 said...
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agnostic monk said...

Just curious Salem but why do you consider bisexual folks specifically to be amoral? I thought you were a hippie, and that love was love and sex wasn't bad? Is it possible that you are holding his bisexuality against him because you already have a grudge against him and it's convenient to sling "butt-pirate" insults at him?

Dok said...

Col Said:
"9- Charlie leaves- Bobby/Sadie/Mary continue to threaten and abuse to get the money. Gary promised to go to the police."

He promised to go to the police? Or did he promise not to go to the police? I'm thinking if he promised to go to the police, I would have killed him too. Just out of panic. But I'm thinking he promised not to go to the police.

Salem said...

agnostic monk said...
Just curious Salem but why do you consider bisexual folks specifically to be amoral? I thought you were a hippie, and that love was love and sex wasn't bad? Is it possible that you are holding his bisexuality against him because you already have a grudge against him and it's convenient to sling "butt-pirate" insults at him?

naaaaaaaa MONK
just havin a bad day. :)
how was your day?
oh i was a hippie.i did NOT engage in FREE sex. nor same sex.
I did have limits.
nite

chasingbunnies said...

agnostic monk said...
Just curious Salem but why do you consider bisexual folks specifically to be amoral? I thought you were a hippie, and that love was love and sex wasn't bad? Is it possible that you are holding his bisexuality against him because you already have a grudge against him and it's convenient to sling "butt-pirate" insults at him?

6:18 PM

------
Maybe she thinks that having sex with both genders is disgusting. I do. There is NO WAY I'd go down on some girl! Not EVERY hippy was a so-called bisexual. Maybe she prefers men sexually, and maybe the new Vivid Video bisexual 'Jenna Jamseson types' are doing it for money. You watch too much porn and listen to too much Howard Stern. (I like Howard Stern but he's not the pervert it's his guests) I wouldn't want to marry some dude who had sex in the same place as a man deficates. To me that oriface is EXIT ONLY. Maybe Salem feels the same way. Plus it's not natural. Would you be happy if your teenage son was bisexual and taking and giving it in the butt and then giving it to some girl. (your daughter for rxample) E-COLI CITY! Not to mention HIV. How about your daughtter? Huh? Would you want your beautiful daughter to act like that? Talk about no class. Now, I lived in a gay area for 18 years, and I have no problem with gays and have gay friends and it's not my business what folks do in their back yard. But, I don't want to hear it and I DON'T UNDERSTAND why people define themselves by gender orientation. Why do bisexuals need to let everyone know that they are bi? Frankly, you are either gay or straight. Bisexuals are emotionally strung out people and very unhappy. i's need to make up their minds. This is just MHO.

60skid said...

Col Said:
"9- Charlie leaves- Bobby/Sadie/Mary continue to threaten and abuse to get the money. Gary promised to go to the police."

He promised to go to the police? Or did he promise not to go to the police? I'm thinking if he promised to go to the police, I would have killed him too. Just out of panic. But I'm thinking he promised not to go to the police.

I understand as ..hinman would go to the police.

60skid said...

Bunnies ,

I work with a guy ..he says he is trisexuel


he thinks it so funny

chasingbunnies said...

60skid said...
Bunnies ,

I work with a guy ..he says he is trisexuel


he thinks it so funny

8:13 PM

-----
Yeah I've heard that one before, too LOL it is funny.

chasingbunnies said...

How come there are no other photos of Gary Hinman? Is that the only photo ever taken of him? I always wondered about that...

chasingbunnies said...

Salem said...
agnostic monk said...
Just curious Salem but why do you consider bisexual folks specifically to be amoral? I thought you were a hippie, and that love was love and sex wasn't bad? Is it possible that you are holding his bisexuality against him because you already have a grudge against him and it's convenient to sling "butt-pirate" insults at him?

naaaaaaaa MONK
just havin a bad day. :)
how was your day?
oh i was a hippie.i did NOT engage in FREE sex. nor same sex.
I did have limits.
nite

7:52 PM

-------
I did not engage in free sex, bisexuality, or lesbianism. However gay sex is fine (Female gay sex is more about companionship than actual sex) Also what is with this phrase "free sex" as far as I know sex has always been free. I never paid for it, lol. Most hippies had some boundries, and at least had the common sense to stay away from group sex with both genders. Not all hippies lived in communes, either. The women who did didn't even know who their child was. The men didn't much care. I knew a lady who lived on Hog Farm and she said that the children seemed lost and unhappy with no 'one on one father' who was actually their real father. Plus, those children grew up to be very unhappy. How could anyone create a child not knowing who the sperm donor was. The women were used for sex only, and the only ones who benefited from this crap were the men. I know some very unhappy ex-hippy women who gave birth to a babies and did not know who the father was. There is NOTHING like a wonderful real father, who knows who his child is and the bonding that goes on is the only way to make a little boy or girl feel secure. (yes I know that there are real fathers out there who are abusive and are assholes and perverts, but most kids love their real dad and mom.) That whole hippy thing was a house of cards that fell apart. AND IT WASN'T CHARLES MANSON WHO DID IT! In fact he hated hippies! IT WAS THE MORONS WHO BOUGHT THAT PHILOSOPHY HOOKK, LINE AND SINKER.

chasingbunnies said...

Ooooops...
CB said...
The women who did didn't even know who their child was.

I meant to say the guys didn't even know who their child was. My bad...

chasingbunnies said...

Salem said...
why would charlie want hinman dead?
Bobby would be traced back to the ranch...
ya think CM wanted Bobby in jail?

1:58 PM

-----
I think the scene went like this according to the Tom Snyder interview.
Hinman sold some mescaline to Bobby and Bobby dealt it to the Straight Satans. They said BB ripped them off and the stuff was no good... Bobby was confronted by the bikers and his pucker factor went on overdrive so he called Manson. Manson came to Hinman's house and so forth and so on.

Hinman asked Charlie if he was Manson's brother. Charlie said yes. Hinman asked how much are you my brother, and Charlie said "completely" But Hinman had a gun. Charlie cut the dudes ear off because he was scared Hinman would shoot him. Charlie left, and before leaving he told Bobby to do what he needed to do--I don't think Manson mean't for BB to torture him and kill him, but Bobby proceeded to murder Hinman, steal his car, and somethig about the deed to Hinman's house. He wasn't involved in the TLB murders but he is still a freaking murderer. Manson admitted to cutting Hinman's ear off.

agnostic monk said...

ChasingBunnies said...
>>>>Maybe she thinks that having sex with both genders is disgusting. I do. There is NO WAY I'd go down on some girl!<<<<

That's fine but she used the word "amoral", not "disgusting". I just found it curious that she doesn't seem to have a problem with gays but does have a problem with bisexuals (which it turns out she's just blowing off steam hence her follow-up post).

>>>>Not EVERY hippy was a so-called bisexual.<<<<

I never said they were, but they tended to have more open attitudes about sexuality than say I dont know your average *establishment pig*.

>>>>Maybe she prefers men sexually>>>>

Again I wasn't really asking her about her own sex life. I was asking about her attitude towards other people who claim to be bisexual.

>>>You watch too much porn and listen to too much Howard Stern.<<<<

No, actually I don't watch enough. LOL, Or really any for that matter.

>>>I wouldn't want to marry some dude who had sex in the same place as a man deficates. To me that oriface is EXIT ONLY.<<<<

Um, not all bisexual and gay men engage in anal sex. And there are heteros who do. And again, Salem wasn't saying that she prefers to not have sex with bisexuals, she was saying that she thinks they are amoral. That has nothing to do with her personal sex life. I'm not sure why you feel the need to share details about yours either.

>>>Plus it's not natural.<<<<

I'm not even touching that loaded rhetoric.

>>>>Would you be happy if your teenage son was bisexual and taking and giving it in the butt and then giving it to some girl. (your daughter for rxample) E-COLI CITY! Not to mention HIV. How about your daughtter? Huh? Would you want your beautiful daughter to act like that? Talk about no class.<<<<<

So, being bisexual automatically means being promiscuous and a cheater? I know bisexual people (or at least people who call themselves that) and the one's I know don't tend to be any more promiscuous or cheaters than heteros.

>>>>>Now, I lived in a gay area for 18 years, and I have no problem with gays and have gay friends and it's not my business what folks do in their back yard. But, I don't want to hear it and I DON'T UNDERSTAND why people define themselves by gender orientation. Why do bisexuals need to let everyone know that they are bi? Frankly, you are either gay or straight. Bisexuals are emotionally strung out people and very unhappy. i's need to make up their minds. This is just MHO.<<<<

Wow, I'm drowning in generalizations and don't know where to start!!!!

I never should have brought this up, I should have known it would just stir up fights.

closed blog said...
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closed blog said...
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chasingbunnies said...

agnostic monk said...
ChasingBunnies said...
>>>>Maybe she thinks that having sex with both genders is disgusting. I do. There is NO WAY I'd go down on some girl!<<<<

That's fine but she used the word "amoral", not "disgusting". (I Wrote this entry hat bisexuals are amoral.) I double dogged dared Salem to post it.... I just found it curious that she doesn't seem to have a problem with gays but does have a problem with bisexuals (which it turns out she's just blowing off steam hence her follow-up post). Salem feels the same as I do.

>>>>Not EVERY hippy was a so-called bisexual.<<<<

I never said they were, but they tended to have more open attitudes about sexuality than say I dont know your average *establishment pig*. (I do, and they are too uptight about sex of ay kind)

>>>>Maybe she prefers men sexually>>>>

Again I wasn't really asking her about her own sex life. I was asking about her attitude towards other people who claim to be bisexual. (Salem's hubby would beg to differ--get a grip, Monk. You have no clue about love, sex, and the intimacy that goes along with it)

>>>You watch too much porn and listen to too much Howard Stern.<<<<

No, actually I don't watch enough. LOL, Or really any for that matter.

>>>I wouldn't want to marry some dude who had sex in the same place as a man deficates. To me that oriface is EXIT ONLY.<<<<

Um, not all bisexual and gay men engage in anal sex. (or oral sex)nAnd there are heteros who do.Heteros for the most par do not engage in that psycho crap) And again, Salem wasn't saying that she prefers to not have sex with bisexuals, she was saying that she thinks they are amoral. (I say they are amoral) That has nothing to do with her personal sex life. I'm not sure why you feel the need to share details about yours either.

>>>Plus it's not natural.<<<<

I'm not even touching that loaded rhetoric. (and your rhetoric is not to swift either)

>>>>Would you be happy if your teenage son was bisexual and taking and giving it in the butt and then giving it to some girl. (your daughter for example) E-COLI CITY! Not to mention HIV. How about your daughtter? Huh? Would you want your beautiful daughter to act like that? Talk about no class.<<<<<

So, being bisexual automatically means being promiscuous and a cheater? I know bisexual people (or at least people who call themselves that) and the one's I know don't tend to be any more promiscuous or cheaters than heteros. (I know gays who are not cheater, either) Many Bi's use speed and are all messed up, and unhappy)

>>>>>Now, I lived in a gay area for 18 years, and I have no problem with gays and have gay friends and it's not my business what folks do in their back yard. But, I don't want to hear it and I DON'T UNDERSTAND why people define themselves by gender orientation. Why do bisexuals need to let everyone know that they are bi? Frankly, you are either gay or straight. Bisexuals are emotionally strung out people and very unhappy. They need to make up their minds. This is just MHO.<<<<

Wow, I'm drowning in generalizations and don't know where to start!!!!

I never should have brought this up, I should have known it would just stir up fights.

10:09 PM

(Not fighting with you Monk...just disagreeing with you)

Actually I wrote this entire post, and asked Salem to post it....

No wonder there are so many kids who can't connect with their peers today. Oh and You never answered the question regarding your own children regarding bisexuality.I don't know what you're trying to say--it's all cool and shit to be bisexual? "I'm bi..."I'm bi...I'm bi...really bi I"M BI" I'M so cool cause I like the shock value of telling everyone I'm bi...LOL

Yepyep said...
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CreequeAlley said...

So it's either the bad mescaline deal, or they believed Gary had money and they wanted to take it.

If it were the alleged money and wanting to take it, I can't see how Charlie and/or Bobby would think they could possibly get away with that crime, unless the victim were silenced, since Hinman knew who the were.

Interesting that in Susan Atkins' book, if you believe it, she makes it clear that to the best of her knowledge, it was thought that Gary had money and they went there to take it from him.

But if it were the bad mescaline deal, they probably wouldn't have been so worried about getting turned in by Gary. Not much reason to kill him.

It was probably the money deal, not the bad drug deal. Maybe it was both situations together, though. The bad drug deal needed to be rectified, and while they were there, rip him off for everything else they could. After a day or two, Charlie loses patience and control, shows up with the sword, and escalates the situation beyond the point of return.

catscradle77 said...
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catscradle77 said...
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Yepyep said...
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Salem said...

That's fine but she used the word "amoral", not "disgusting". I just found it curious that she doesn't seem to have a problem with gays but does have a problem with bisexuals (which it turns out she's just blowing off steam hence her follow-up post).

I have been married 25 years and have a wonderful sex life for your information. And have a wonderful child.
can u say the same?
I say
GOD created male and female.
I dont condone gay sex. I think *its ya thing , do what ya wana do*
I am just not into it,
You dont know what free sex was back in the 60's?
oh well

Salem said...

cm hated hippies monk?

DUH!!!!!! ya think?

Salem said...

The items are also located in Santa Monica, California.

It could be that Nuel Emmons is the seller.

11:09 PM

Savage
is it any way ya can find out for sure if it Emmmons?
please?????

Salem said...

BTW MONK
DONT NIT PIC WITH ME ANYMORE. I WILL JUST IGNORE YA.

60skid said...

Salem
It sure looks like it is Nuel Emmons

catscradle77 said...
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60skid said...

I just emailed the guy a question ..see if I get a answer.

No feedback score and he only wants Money order/Cashier check

Salem said...

thanks:)
me

Salem said...

thank you all!
Me:)

60skid said...

Salem,

Like Savage says no one going to buy something off Ebay when the seller has no feed back score
You have no idea if you will get the item.

Plus this person will not take credit cards ..because that cost money to set up.to take credit cards.
He just wants the quick buck and no trail.. who he is

closed blog said...
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60skid said...

Savage,
I did get a answer back from the guy

Salem said...

hippie ........a member of a counterculture that began appearing in the early 1960s, which expressed a moral rejection of the established society. Derived from the word hip, meaning roughly "in the know," or "aware." Numerous theories abound as to the origin of this word. One of the most credible involves the beatniks, who abandoned North Beach, San Francisco, to flee commercialism in the early 1960s. Many of them moved to the Haight-Ashbury area of San Francisco, where they were idolized and emulated by the young University of San Francisco students in the neighborhood. The beats (the hip people) started calling these students "hippies," or younger versions of themselves. Actually, the counterculture seldom called itself hippies; it was the media and straight society who popularized the term. Most often, we called ourselves freaks or heads. Not until later did we begin calling ourselves hippies, and by then we were "aging hippies." An alternate spelling seldom used by people in the know was "hippy........

closed blog said...
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Salem said...

TBay" is what i now call the Charliemanson.Com website. :-)

lol
He does have a chat room there tho. :)

60skid said...

Savage,
I don't think his items on EBay will sell simply for the fact that his '0' feedback code is a red flag and his payment method is very limited.

If he wants to keep it discreet, he should approach Mark Turner and work out some kind of arrangement to offer the items on his website.

For that kind of money, any buyer needs to be assured that the seller is legitimate.

Yes I asked him what prove he had..it was from Charlie.. for that kind of money and no feed back .


His answer

i have hundreds of letters from Charles Manson and 3 hours on footage as well. In a letter he talks about his self portrait. I have no other proof.

Salem said...

thanks 60's
60skid said...
Savage,
I did get a answer back from the guy

9:25 AM

i passed it to a very GOOD freind:)

closed blog said...
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Salem said...

You forgot about "Beatniks".
;)

closed blog said...
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60skid said...

Savage
You said once that Mark Turner was involved in Debra Tate board

Is that true

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60skid said...

Savage,

He put together this website for Sharon .... note that it looks similar to Dennis Rice's "Manson2jesus" site.

Debra's name is at the bottom as she must have given him many of the pictures so this project looks like a joint collaberation.

Thank You Savage very intresting ..Looks like I better send the Col a email.. Telling him I was wrong

closed blog said...
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60skid said...

Mark Turner and Debra Tate have had some kind of "Working Relationship" and it was always my belief that Turner was very down on anyone who he viewed as "Sympathetic" to any of those involved in the crimes because of his connection to Debra.

I'm sure that he could get a message to her if he wanted to so you have to be *very* careful what you say over there on his board.

You don't want to have anything you say get taken out of
context :-)


You know I always defended Debra Tate ..I felt so bad for her..I thought you guys were picking on her.
But Now I wonder about her

closed blog said...
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Salem said...

i like to chat at 8 pm.
if we arent hit by all this nasty weather coming our way tonight.

60skid said...

Savage ,

I usually don't like to involve myself in family matters. Debra obviously had issues with her Mom and Patti and that's really their business.

I respect Debra in terms of losing her sister and I do feel for what she went through, but i just get the feeling that her intentions are not what they seem.

Well Savage I am starting to question her intentions also.

Like you I did not want to involve my self in family issues ..I just thought what is that any one business.

I don't see any of the other victim's families trying to cash in the Tate/Labianca murders.

All I ever read about her ..she did not like her sister name said in the same sentence as Charlie Manson..but she would use his name to sell out her sister.

As far as the star..I loved Sharon but she did not have that kind of career ..to get a star .
I am sure there are other ways of honoring her.

Roman got all that money from vanity fair ..let him pay if Sharon ever got the Star..Sharon was his wife ..I am sure he could pay.

Here is the link about Debra getting hurt

http://www.exorthodoxforchrist.com/devil_on_her_heels.htm

Salem said...

CHAT NOW
see ya at 2 pm

closed blog said...
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60skid said...

Savage , I do not know what I did wrong here is the story


LOS ANGELES - May 31, 2004 - (ANS) -- It was just before her 17th birthday when cult followers of Charles Manson launched their demonic rampage that left her sister and four others dead. Thirty-five years later, she continues her fight to keep the perpetrators behind bars—several of whom are born-again Christians—while struggling to overcome tragedies that continue to haunt her life. (Pictured: Sharon Tate).

“It seems like evil is hot on my heels,” says Debra Tate, 51, the younger sister of Sharon Tate. As a postal employee, Debra was injured four years ago by a bomb placed in a mailbox near a Christian college in Southern California. The explosion—apparently unrelated to the Manson family crimes--ruptured three vertebrae in her neck, leaving her in constant pain, with numbness on her left side. “God made me tough,” Tate says. “I will keep doing what I’m doing until I can’t.” (Pictured: Debra Tate, accepting an award in 2001 on behalf of her sister, from the Motion Picture Council).

Debra’s mother, Doris Tate, was one of the pioneers of the victims’ rights movement before her death from brain cancer in 1992. Then sister Patti took up the banner until she died in 2000 from breast cancer. Debra is the only family member left to fight the battles. Her father, Colonel Paul Tate, who served throughout the world in Army Intelligence, became a very private person after the tragedy and is reportedly “barely alive.”

So she continues her lonesome crusade—carrying on her mother’s work--by attending parole hearings, organizing letter-writing campaigns, and fighting to ensure violent offenders are not released back into society—or able to profit from their crimes.

Debra was the first family member to actually attend one of Charles Manson’s parole hearings. “He doesn’t scare me,” Tate says. “It shocked him I was there. He was all the way up to the entrance to the parole hearing and could see me through the glass,” she says. “He decided not to come into the room.”

Growing up, Debra and her sister were “army brats,” moving to various parts of the world following their father’s career. “Sharon and I were extremely close,” Tate says. Because Sharon was ten-years older, she had a mother’s influence on Debra, taking her to the park, teaching her to roller-skate, and nurturing her in heartfelt ways. (Pictured: Early picture of Debra Tate).

In the early days of Sharon’s Hollywood career she had small parts on “The Beverly Hillbillies,” Mr. Ed,” “Man from U.N.C.L.E” and was cast for a short period on Petticoat Junction. Sharon also auditioned for the role of Liesl in “The Sound of Music,” along with Mia Farrow, Lesley Ann Warren, and Patty Duke, but Charmian Carr got the part.

After dating Hollywood hairstylist Jay Sebring for a time, Sharon became attached to film director Roman Polanski during the filming of “The Fearless Vanpire Killers,” a spoof of the vampire genre. In 1968 Polanski proposed to Sharon in London, and their “mod wedding” was covered by press from around the world. Polanski originally wanted Sharon for the lead in “Rosemary’s Baby,” but chose Mia Farrow instead. Tate went on to make such films as “Valley of the Dolls,” “Wrecking Crew,” and “Don't Make Waves.”

Sharon learned she was pregnant toward the end of 1968, and while she was excited, she was worried about telling her husband. “I was with Sharon when she found out she was pregnant,” Tate says. “Roman had a negative reaction at first,” she says. “He was concerned about her career because she was just getting her momentum as an actress.”

With a child on the way, the Polanskis began to look for a larger home and found one in the Benedict Canyon area of Bel-Air--a beautiful ranch style home with a pool and guesthouse. The previous tenants were Candice Bergen and Terry Melcher, the son of Doris Day. In February 1969 the Polanskis moved into the house Sharon would call her "love house".

As Sharon’s star ascended in Hollywood, a career-criminal named Charles Manson was released on probation from prison. By the age of 13 his mother decided she wanted nothing to do with him and put Manson into a foster home, which he ran away from and began living on the streets, supporting himself by stealing cars, passing stolen checks, and credit card fraud. Most of his adult life was spent in and out of prison.

Upon his release in 1967 Manson moved to San Francisco, where his deranged but magnetic personality was able to attract a group of followers often referred to as “the family.” Then he moved to Southern California where he and his group took over the Spahn movie ranch in Chatsworth, where western films were once shot.

Manson fancied himself as a budding rock and roll musician, and began trying to put together his own record album. His teaching—and lyrics—were inspired by the Beatles “White Album” and the Book of Revelation. He taught his followers a race war and nuclear attack was imminent.

“Manson wanted Terry Melcher to produce an album he recorded,” Tate says. “Melcher had made quite a few stars as a record producer,” she says. Manson didn’t receive the reception he hoped for from Melcher.

“Terry Melcher was extremely blunt and told him where to jump off,” Tate says. “Manson’s master plan was to use that money to fund a race war he was going to start--that was ‘Helter Skelter.’ He figured after everyone killed each other, that would leave him all powerful,” she says.

Manson’s twisted plans were momentarily stymied by Melcher—and feeling snubbed--Manson began to plot his revenge. Originally “they were looking for Terry Melcher,” Tate says. “He and Candice Bergen of Murphy Brown fame rented the house,” she says. When Manson discovered they moved out he formulated an alternate plan.

“Manson knew Melcher and Bergen didn’t live there any more,” Tate notes. “But he figured the people in the house were like them—young and successful—and that’s all that mattered. The location represented something distasteful to him.”

On the day of the murders, Debra Tate was planning to visit her sister. Despite the 10-year age gap, Debra had been welcomed into Sharon’s circle of friends. “That evening I was supposed to go up there and pick up a saddle Sharon brought back to me from Europe,” Tate recalls. When Debra’s ride, a friend named Johnny Glick, showed up at the door with two strangers, she called Sharon, who was eight and a half months pregnant at the time.

“She was hugely pregnant and very uncomfortable, as women get just before delivery,” Tate says. “I knew how miserable she was, and I knew these other people would probably not be a good idea, so I gave her a courtesy call.”

As Debra expected, Sharon told her not to come. “She didn’t feel like getting dressed up and putting on makeup.”

Sharon had only been home a few weeks. She had been in London promoting the release of the film "Twelve Plus One". Then she boarded the Queen Elizabeth II and sailed to the U.S., arriving on July 20. Roman stayed behind in London to finish work on “Day of the Dolphin” and then planned to join her in L.A. for the birth of their child.

Debra has managed to stay in touch with Polanski through the years and considers him a good friend. “Roman is absolutely brilliant,” Tate says. “He was raised in the Jewish ghetto in Warsaw and his mother and sister were killed in front of him,” she says, noting the movie, “The Pianist,” is loosely based on his life. “Sharon loved him dearly.”

With Roman away, Sharon invited several friends over for the evening. Those present that night included Abigail Folger, heiress to the Folger coffee fortune, and her boyfriend, Wojciech Frykowski, a Polish national befriended by Polanski. Hollywood hairdresser Jay Sebring, Sharon’s former lover, was also there. Another friend, Jozy Pollock, was invited to come over, but stayed away due to a migraine headache.

At 12:30 a.m. on August 9, all hell broke loose as the Manson family invaded the home and launched their murderous attack with buck knives and .22 caliber weapons, killing everyone inside. According to testimony at the trial, Sharon pleaded for the life of her unborn child but received no mercy. Manson did not take part in the actual killings that night, but stayed behind at the Spahn ranch, sending his followers out to do his bidding.

“Manson said, ‘Do something witchy,’ but he didn’t tell them how,” Tate says. “It was up to them to come up with the torture and degradation that went on that night.”

Debra views her absence from the murders as “an intervention” by God. “Someone had to be left behind to fight this evil,” she says. Debra was raised Catholic and “believes very much in God, but not organized religion. I am Christian and live a Christian life. I do for others on a daily basis,” she says.

The fact that several of the Manson family members have become born-again Christians does not give them a right to rejoin the ranks of society, she believes. “Susan Atkins and Tex Watkins are both using religious people as their supporters,” Tate notes. “I call it playing the God card. If they were good Christians they wouldn’t ask to come out.”

Tate fails to see any sign convincing her they deserve a second chance. “They don’t show any personal responsibility. They haven’t made atonement to any one of my family members,” she says. “I’m happy they’ve found Christ, but leave them in their controlled environment.”

“I think all these people are demon-possessed,” Tate says. “I think Charlie is criminally insane. He’s very brilliant, and sociopaths are very charming also—that’s one of their gifts. They think they have a right to do whatever they want to do.”

Sadly, a new generation of young people is following Charles Manson. His web-site receives 60,000 hits per year, according to Tate, and he’s sold artwork, guitars, and other memorabilia to his fans. “There are a whole lot of people out there who think Manson is cool and his enemies are their enemies,” Tate says.

The rock group Marilyn Manson borrowed his name in a macabre form of tribute, and the group Nine Inch Nails even lived in the house where the murders took place, and recorded songs in praise of Manson. “Guns and Roses did one of his original songs,” Tate notes. “Because he did what he did based on creating a race war all the white supremacists are on his side.”

“It’s a huge mess,” she says. To fight back, she established a web site-- www.tatelegacy.com, which provides information about parole hearings and legislative updates for those who support the cause of victims’ rights. Thirty-five years after the murders, she remains confident justice will prevail and good will triumph.

There is one hopeful sign God is reclaiming ground in the sad affair: the former Spahn movie ranch, where Manson plotted his crimes, is under new ownership. The Church at Rocky Peak—a vibrant, growing church—bought the property several years ago. “The property where Manson hung out is dedicated to ministering to young people,” says Dave MacKerron, executive pastor at the church.

Last week, 600 middle school-age young people swarmed over the former ranch. “We had sharing about the Lord—the total opposite of what Manson was selling,” Pastor MacKerron says. Many young people attending the recent activity made decisions to follow Jesus Christ.

“It’s gone from evil to sharing that Jesus is the answer—not Satan. Jesus changes lives for the better; Satan changes lives for the worse.”





Mark Ellis is a Senior Correspondent for ASSIST News Service. He is also an assistant pastor in Laguna Beach, CA.

Salem said...

I AM IN

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60skid said...

Savage,
Interesting Article though

Yes it is intresting I just send the Col email I just hope he does not give me another entry
But when I am wrong I admit it

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60skid said...

Savage,

60skid:
>It’s gone from evil to sharing that Jesus is the answer—not Satan. Jesus changes lives for the better; Satan changes lives for the worse.” <


Sounds like "2 legs bad, 4 legs good".

I wonder what the pastor would say about the Process Church and Reconciliation between Christ and the Devil in the End of Days ....

"Christ to Judge and Satan to execute the Judgement"


Yes I wonder about that too But also intresting Debra says she is Christian ..But at Susan last parole hearing ..Debra played up being Catholic

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60skid said...

Savage,
That one's from the "Abbey Road" Album :-)


Yes I know I like The Abbey Road album

60skid said...

I listen to the Beatles and trandional county music

I got a thing for cowboys.

Salem said...

Savage RDDB-DA said...
The link doesn't appear to be working

10:57 AM

i got in....
wanna try again...
race ya*
not at .com but the .net chat

60skid said...

Salem ,

When I wrote back and asked this ebay seller where the footage was shot and and if he was Nuel Emmons


Here is his reply

THE FOOTAGE IS OF AN INTERVIEW HE HAS DONE WITH ME AT CORCORAN STATE PRISON. THE NEST HE HAS EVER DONE.

Jane Doe said...

This song reminds me of Atkins:

Dissolve by Switchblade Symphony

Can you see me going down
I am screaming out loud
And the fear of god is in me now
Dissolve
In the moonshine
I leave no trace
My visions have gone
Far away from this place
They've dissolved
Can you see me going down
I am screaming out loud
And the fear of god is in me now
Dissolve
Dissolve
Dissolve

Salem said...

Here is his reply

THE FOOTAGE IS OF AN INTERVIEW HE HAS DONE WITH ME AT CORCORAN STATE PRISON. THE NEST HE HAS EVER DONE.
thanks 60's:)

Salem said...

trying chat again before the storm hits us!
D

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60skid said...

Savage,

Susan is at peace with god. She's not screaming out loud as far as I know.

You'd get written up for that kind of thing at CIW :-)

I read she got wrote up once for touching her husband..I do not know if that true

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60skid said...

You can't get away with too much in the visiting room. It depends on the guards that are there and it depends on how crowded the area is at the time.

They also do "Counts" during visiting hours so you have to take a break and wait for the girls to come back in from the outside patio area.

a guy I work with did 6 and half years in prision ..so he has told me a lot of what it was like

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60skid said...

Savage,

It's still hard to think of someone growing up there and thinking about all that they missed out on in life.

There's no escaping the reality of their world

I do not think I would want there life for anything ..you wait from one parole hearing til the next

60skid said...

Maybe Leslie will get a date in August ..a lot people think it looks good for her this year.

catscradle77 said...
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60skid said...

It must be sad visiting them also. Knowing your leaving and they are not.
Also the poor parents that have to visit their children knowing there is nothing they can do.

Salem said...

chatters

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60skid said...

60skid:
>It must be sad visiting them also. Knowing your leaving and they are not.<

That was the hardest part for me and i walked away feeling completely numb by the time i got to my car in the parking lot.

I looked back and i could see her waving to me from the window and i swear i nearly broke down.

It was the hardest thing in the world to deal with and i didn't sleep that well that night when i was back at the hotel.

I just felt so empty inside. I saw her for the last time that Sunday and went home on Tuesday and I


just felt like a part of me died. It was very hard going back home knowing that she was still there


Savage , I do not know what to say ..but I can understand how you felt knowing you were going back to your life ..and she had no life.
I am sure you felt helpless for being able to do noting for her.


But in you way you are doing what you can ..by visiting and supporting her and writing to her

I just seen the time ..I will be back at 9

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catscradle77 said...
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agnostic monk said...

Salem said...
>>>BTW MONK
DONT NIT PIC WITH ME ANYMORE. I WILL JUST IGNORE YA.<<<<

Salem I wasn't nit-picking with you. I was nit-picking with ChasingBunnies re: her bisexual screech that was loaded with generalities.

:)

agnostic monk said...

I mean generalizations

60skid said...

Savage ,

I have a imporant messege for you .How can I get it to you ?

Salem said...

Salem I wasn't nit-picking with you. I was nit-picking with ChasingBunnies re: her bisexual screech that was loaded with generalities.

oh
well
chat about it?

60skid said...

Savage,


Leaving her there was like watching a part of me die. I try not to think about it because it still hurts me but sometimes I just can't help it.

I sat at work and thought about what you said about leaving there that day..

I feel so bad .. please let me know if I can help in any way.I really mean that..from the bottom of my heart

60skid said...

Savage ,


Chat Lynn55

Salem said...

chat chat chat

Salem said...

I feel so bad .. please let me know if I can help in any way.I really mean that..from the bottom of my heart


same here:)

Salem said...

Looking back on it, maybe i wasn't as strong enough as i thought i was. At the end of the day, we're all just human after all, aren't we?

yes we are Savage :)

60skid said...

any chatters

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60skid said...

Savage,
go to chat

60skid said...

savage ,
I'm sorry for getting a little emotional earlier. I've been a little depressed myself and my mind was back on the west coast :-)

It is not problem I do understand now .

How do you do it

chasingbunnies said...

agnostic monk said...
Salem said...
>>>BTW MONK
DONT NIT PIC WITH ME ANYMORE. I WILL JUST IGNORE YA.<<<<

Salem I wasn't nit-picking with you. I was nit-picking with ChasingBunnies re: her bisexual screech that was loaded with generalities.

:)

4:52 PM
-----
Monk...everyone generalizes. Sad but true. You generalized all hippies. Not all hippies accepted everything with a bong hit, a "that's cool" a shrug and a peace sign. However, you may nit-pick with me anytime ;)
lol

chasingbunnies said...

Savage RDDB-DA said...
I'm sorry for getting a little emotional earlier. I've been a little depressed myself and my mind was back on the west coast :-)

------
Savage...You should never have to apologize for being a human being with compassion, and empathy. Especially not to us.
:(

60skid said...

Bunnies

Email me ok

agnostic monk said...

ChasingBunnies said...
>>>>Monk...everyone generalizes. Sad but true. You generalized all hippies. Not all hippies accepted everything with a bong hit, a "that's cool" a shrug and a peace sign. However, you may nit-pick with me anytime ;)
lol<<<<

Perhaps I was generalizing. I'm sure I'll be guilty of it again sometime soon. But the fact is, IMHO, your generalizations were way over the top.

Saying hippies back in the day leaned towards being more open about sexuality than your average late 60's joe schmoe is not quite the same thing as saying that bisexuals in general are speed-freaks and emotionally damaged.

At least IMHO.

:)

Jane Doe said...
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Shopgirl said...

ChasingBunnies said...
>>>>Monk...everyone generalizes. Sad but true. You generalized all hippies. Not all hippies accepted everything with a bong<<<<

One can not generalize all hippies because micro sub-cultures existed. The hippie culture was the first generation to advocate freedom of self-expression and embrace individualism.

Self-expression was not compromised and 'hippies' fought and rebelled against societal pressure to assimilate and conform to society which dictated and imposed its social norms/needs being dominant over that of an individual.

Without the the spirit and conscious of the hippies - it's quite likely we all would have been 'nuked' sometime in the '70s. Their quest to change the world was in fact, more successful than what they are given credit for.

Many obtained post-secondary education and reached positions which gave them opportunities to make a difference and change things for the better.

Jane Doe said...

ChasingBunnies said...

"How come there are no other photos of Gary Hinman? Is that the only photo ever taken of him? I always wondered about that..."

Here is a different photo of Hinman:
http://www.cielodrive.com/victims/hinman/index.html

chasingbunnies said...

ChasingBunnies said...
ChasingBunnies said...
>>>>Monk...everyone generalizes. Sad but true. You generalized all hippies. Not all hippies accepted everything with a bong hit, a "that's cool" a shrug and a peace sign. However, you may nit-pick with me anytime ;)
lol<<<<

Perhaps I was generalizing. I'm sure I'll be guilty of it again sometime soon. But the fact is, IMHO, your generalizations were way over the top.

Saying hippies back in the day leaned towards being more open about sexuality than your average late 60's joe schmoe is not quite the same thing as saying that bisexuals in general are speed-freaks and emotionally damaged.

At least IMHO.

:)
------------
Monk, I never said they were speed freaks?? Where did that come from? Emotionally 'strung out' just means emotionally unstable. I also added that it was just my opinion. Sorry for the confusion.

8:41 AM

Spahn84 said...

Heaven,


I think you may get a star yet !!!

Spahn84 said...

I think we should rename this blog Heaven Blog.

No need for a movie or a book.We have Heaven

Spahn84 said...

None of you people know what you are talking about.

I only read Heavens Posts .She is the only one that knows what happened.

Salem said...

Spahn84 said...
I think we should rename this blog Heaven Blog.

No need for a movie or a book.We have Heaven

5:20 PM

HEAVEN CAN WAIT
I LOVE THAT MOVIE