Talking Points for today.
1- The Family knew Gary. Mary had stayed with him at his house. They, and other youth, stayed at Gary's place.
2- Gary, if not gay, was at least bisexual and used his music teaching business as a cover to provide drugs and meet boys.
3- Bobby was bisexual and considered Gary a friend. Bobby and some of the girls would get drugs off Gary.
Okay. If we accept (as I do) that this is all true, then we have something VERY different from TLB going on. Because Gary KNEW his killers. Worse yet, he considered Bobby and Mary friends- they had been to his house many times. Mary stayed there some nights while pregnant when she couldn't make it back to Spahn. I have zero evidence that Bobby ever slept with Gary. But they both swung that way. Remember, though no one has ever commented on it, as the story goes, Gary speaks to Charlie when he comes in the door as if Charlie is gonna stop Bobby and the girls from being mean to him. Nobody notes that if true, GARY KNEW CHARLIE. He also knew Bruce Davis, who came with Charlie. (another reason why the new HS film is such crap- almost NONE of these people were shown at Hinman). It's almost as if... dare I say it... Gary Allen Hinman was a part of the Family.
I mean, if BOBBY was in the Family, and he only came by occasionally to screw girls and make music, then GARY was too, right? I mean he only came to the ranch a few times. But he knew everybody and his house was a crah pad. If you think about it, it makes sense.
The question the BUG could not afford to look at, which we have to, is , "Why are we all acting like this one drug deal was the ONLY drug deal?"
Let's say that Gary Hinman was part of the Family. Let's say that he regularly provided them with drugs to deal (unless Bobby out of a clear blue sky guessed Gary had drugs). Let's say that the Straight Satan burn was only the last straw in shit that had gone down between him and them.
Because if you are gonna go threaten somebody you don't take two little girls, no matter how psychotic.
The muscle came in AFTERWARDS and left them to clean up after.
What else could Gary have done?
Why was Bobby sent? (Mary had lived there, Sadie was crazy)
Why did Gary resist?
Remember, throughout this, Gary promised repeatedly that he would go to the police. He obviously did not think he would be killed.
97 comments:
I'm only guessing here, but maybe Gary was privy to other information regarding things at the ranch...
Maybe Manson was concerned that Gary would go to the police..
The ranch had stolen cars, guns, drugs and underage girls. The last thing Manson would have wanted were the cops sniffing around...
Again, I'm only guessing.
=)
I dunno if anyone is still reading the Doggies Round Up thread, but Bugliosi didn't bring the newspaper into the courtroom. Daye Shinn did...
I posted the whole story in that thread, for anyone who may be interested...
=)
Hey Col, a couple of threads back you were asking where the connection was between all the victims and "The Family", could it be Hinman? Could he have been the drug connection that tied them all together?Maybe Melcher and Wilson knew him too. If this is already know fact to you and others here who know more about this case then I, forgive me. I'm just now thinking that the key could be Hinman.
Hello Kitty!
What chat room?
Hello Kitty! Wow I thought my peeps here with the Col were leaving me out of the loop. What's the deal with Turner? I've notice him mentioned a lot of late. I know the Col, my main man with the skinny on TLB, is not to found of Turner. I personally don't know a lot, but I'm learning.
Savage,
Has anyone noticed that the two items being offered by "Nuelsaid" on EBay have mysteriously disappeared
I wonder why
Satori,
Some of your thoughts on your web site about the old story ..about Paul Mc Cartney being dead are inresting
-----------------------------------
It has always been my understanding that eBay does not allow anyone to sell true crime memorabilia on their website.
I imagine that they removed the listing because it violated eBay policy.
I never knew that
Cat chick,
THe Bug was the best.I have his picture on my wall. He signed it and all.
Heaven tell her The Bug is the best
I can not believe any one would put the Bug on there wall.. I would if I could slap it.LOL
Satori,
The whole "Paul is Dead" thing is actually rather silly, but still something that I find to be a lot of fun to read about and to consider (especially the whole looking for clues on the album covers and in the music part -- that always reminds me of the Manson case as I learned about both at virtually the same time when I was a kid).
I very much remember The Paul is dead story. At the time ..My friends and I were all upset to think Paul was dead.
___________________________________
Wow letters from Son Of Sam I bet those letters where intresting
Satori,
What I learned is that he is actually completely full of BS for the most part. And once he decided to stop cooperating with me (after I called him on his BS), all I could get out of him were religious tracts and Bible quoutes . . .
Sounds like he has not changed much
ChasingBunnies said...
>>>>If the Followers of CM wanted to end the war, clean the air, save the trees and the water then why did they kill movie stars, and grocery store owners?<<<<
Hi Bunnies, I'd say there are two possible answers to your question.
#1: They just weren't that bright. Between the drugs and their own failure to be effective at much of anything, they concocted this dumbshit scheme to end the war and stop pollution with obviously dismal results. I've always wondered; if this was really the motivation behind the murders, why didn't SOMEONE pipe up and say "Hey wait a minute this is a really STUPID fucking idea. Let's re-think, shall we?"
#2: This whole idea that the murders occurred out of a desire to stop the war and save the planet is a revisionist history bullshit fantasy by Charlie and Sandra Good. Granted, such thoughts may have been on the minds of some Family members and been discussed from time-to-time at the campfire, but that doesn't mean Tex, Sadie, Katie, and Leslie were thinking about the good of the planet when they mercilessly stabbed away (as Charlie and Sandra would like us to believe).
My bet is on #2.
:)
Bunnies,
I want to kiss you!
:)
Bunnies said...
>>>>She (blue) isn't a stupid woman though.<<<<
No, just a little off her rocker.
>>>>The others (Tex, Sadie, Katie, and Leslie) were as dumb as a box of rocks...<<<<
LOL, Agreed!
>>>>and probably didn't give a rats ass about the real issues back then.<<<<
No doubt.
>>>>>ATWA as far as I am concerned is a bunch of shit that was cooked up long after the murders as an excuse for the murders.<<<<
A-fucking-men, sister. Preachin to the choir here.
>>>>What puzzles me is that Blue was well educated and yet preached this stupid shit. Killing people is not the solution to cleaning the environment.<<<<<
Because as intelligent and educated as she was, Blue was also a little loony. I'm not sure it's any deeper or more complicated than that. Don't underestimate the degree to which mental illness - and/or an abusive, neglectful parental relationship - can offset intelligence.
satori,
I was wondering if you noticed Tex Watson Ezekiel Wheel Poject.
I been told it has simliartities to Charlie's Real Wheel conecept
Joe said;
Joe said...
Well, between him, Nelson and manson, I think I know who I'd go with.
ME TOO-MANSON ALL DA WAY!!!
I agree Manson All Da Way !!!
Cat ,
How active was the Process Church in the sixties? And I know LaVey was probably more a showman than anything else, but how many people actually truly bought into is "teachings"
Interesting question ..how many did buy into the teachings
I see Mr Turner is at it again.
Mr. I Walk On Water .. that pushes Dennis Rice the pervert.. or did I mean selling .
No Thanks I will keep the rope !!!!
Salem, Do let what other people say upset you. We have no control over what people will say and do. As long as you know the truth, the shit being spilled means nothing. Stop going over there, it's not good for you : )
We do Salem.
I don't know enough about Mark Turner. Why is he so dispised? I understand the Dennis Rice thing, but what does everyone else know that I don't? Just wondering, I don't want to stir up any bad emotions.
Kitty, I'm praying with ya my sista!
CB said:
"That's great advice Doc, but Mark Turner exposes people's true identiities and their drivers licenses on his board for all to see. How does he do it? He has friends in the police department who have access to this stuff. It's now against the law and Salem should file charges. Imagine the creeps from that board who have Salem's personal info, address, etc, and her DL photo. That's reason enough to start sleeping with one eye open, and collecting guns."
Are you serious? That's bad. Hey Salem, does he know who you are? And has he harrassed you?
Did ya miss me Kitty?
I just briefly scanned that site, and did not see that Salem personally was mentioned. I think that you are ok Salem.
Salem,
I guess he needs donations for lots of things He sure has a lot of links to sell stuff on his site..
He has to get a cut
Cat,
Salem-hang in dere-da Cat is working on sumthing..
You go Kitty
Kitty, I hit ya later when I get home. I was on-call all weekend, so I really couldn't play with ya.
Cat,
All together now "WITH A LITTLE HELP FROM MA FRIENDS"
Come Together Right Now
Salem,
and I wont rat on my freinds, He wants to know WHO and where and how.somethings CANNOT BE SAID OR POSTED. you promise someone something, I keep my word. I am not a SNITCH like him*
You did the right thing . He sure will not name his sources..will he
Salem,
Let him come over and show us these sources
But we all know there is not any
Salem.
Got what you sent me Thanks Sister
Salem,
Uhhh..Salem..Uhhh..I thought you was ma friend...that made me ill...ROFLAMO..Thanks sista from anotha mista..no more putrid vacation pictures-IT BURNS!!!
Yes it does burn
Cat ,
Is the Col giving the Easter Day Service
Or will we have a guest minister
Cats
Hopefully da Col be back from dat traveling and can lead us all into some hallejuah praising -but of course since we aint hung with that kiddy toucher Rice preaching man, we may not know what true holyier than thou bullshiat is..and If dat Rice shows up..I AINT WEARING DA IT LOOKS LIKE DOG PUKE VEST..pitch yer tent..its gonna be good
I can see it now Rice & The Bug fighting over the DOG PUKE VEST with more BS then you ever seen
The 2nd coming of HS
Salem.
yw 60's and Cat
that would be MAJOR POLLUTION of the ocean huh?
Cat is right what is the nasty smell
Cats
Do not forget some one has to peddle the LETTERS and hair and lets not forget the Spahn Dirt
pass the plate sister
Show me the way to Rhett sister he is mine
cats,
60skid said...
Show me the way to Rhett sister he is mine
Love that Cary Grant too..know he aint southern and all but a dayum and i mean dayum fine man..
Salem & I may have too fight over Tim a nice southern boy
Baby I am real Bad Boy..But I am a real good man
Cats
No Tim Mc Graw married to Faith Hill Salem & I like him he is a southern boy
Joe ,
Question (to you who seem to know it all): If Linda K. was so freaked out by the idea of murder, why didn't she leave the Spahn Ranch after she learned about the killing of Hinman? Did anyone ask that at the trial?
Good point. Another thought on Linda ..she said she went along on the murders .because of fear for her daughter .
But she had no problem leaving the ranch ..after the murders leaving her daughter there.
My self I could have never left my daughter behind . You left her be hind with the very people you feared
chasingbunnies said...
>>>>She wasn't too freaked out by the idea of murder, obviously, since went along with, and was the lookout when the other murders were happening. She saw her chance at Bugliosi's free pass after SA changed her mind and she took it...Bugliosi wanted to win, and he did. It is my understanding that LK went on to live a life of drug abuse, and petty crime.<<<<
Oh no, so many things to counter here, but so little energy! Damn this job with corporate America, I have more important work to do which is head up the Linda K. Defense Network.
But Bunnies, c'mon; "look-out"? Please. Is it the job of a "look-out" to lie to those she is looking out for about *PEOPLE COMING*, to *BEG* them to stop their dirty deeds, and then weep in the bushes? Geeze, some look-out.
Actually it was Linda's lawyer GARY FLEISHMAN who saw the chance at Bugliosi's free pass after SA changed her mind. Linda wanted to talk regardless, and FLEISHMAN had to continually remind her to ZIP IT until a deal was offered, while Gypsy was trying to convince her to lie about everything and exonerate them all.
Will address more when I've gotten some sleep!
:)
Joe said...
>>>IN HER GRAND JURY TESTIMONY, WHEN ATKINS HAD NO BEEF WITH LINDA, SHE SAID NOTHING ABOUT LINDA'S ALLEGED WARNING THAT 'SOMEONE WAS COMING' OR TO 'MAKE IT STOP'<<<
Just because Sadie didn't mention it doesn't mean it didn't happen. What, everything has to be confirmed by Psycho Sadie? And remember that Linda had fled the ranch a couple days after the murders. I can't imagine that scored points in Sadie's book (no beef?).
Tex remembers it well. He specifically remembers Linda begging them to stop, as well as her horrified reaction as she watched him beat the shit out of Frykowski on the lawn. Tex would have zero reason to make that up.
>>>>KASABIAN REC'D HER IMMUNITY DEAL ON FEB. 26; TWO WEEKS BEFORE THE MARCH 5 DATE THAT ATKINS OFFICIALLY RECANTED.<<<<
So? "Officially"? I'm sure by Feb. 26 it was clear to the Prosecution team that they couldn't rely on Sadie who had been straddling the fence for some time, official recant or not. They knew it was coming.
>>>THE ONLY SOURCE FOR KASABIAN'S SO-CALLED WILLINGNESS TO TELL ALL ALL ALONG ARE HER AND HER LAWYER.<<<
So it's automatically bullshit? Who else would you expect to be able to use as a source to confirm her willingness, other than her mother?
It's a matter of RECORD that Kasabian WAIVED extradition rights from New Hampshire to California while Watson and Krenwinkle were enjoying their respective stalling games. I doubt very much that Linda waived extradition so that she could get back to LA for the nice weather.
You wanna go, Joe? CAUSE I'LL GO!!!!! (after I get some work done, damn this job, LOL)
:)
chasingbunnies said...
>>>So, Tex had "total recall" LOL Yeah I can see that in his mug shot. He will say anything to get attention-- he's just a male Susan Atkins...they're both a couple of born-again, blathering mee-mee's. (That's just my opinion)
CB<<<<
I just don't see what he would have to gain by confirming Linda's description of her reaction. I agree he's not the most trustworthy cub scout but what would be his reason for backing this up?
All I am saying is that SOMEONE present at Tate claims to remember Linda freaking out. The only people present are either dead or are one of the killers. We don't have a lot to choose from in terms of corroboration as Sharon's kitty cat couldn't talk.
Keep in mind also that Leslie Van Houten specifically remembers Linda being very nervous and freaking out in the car on the way to Labianca while Charlie yelled at her.
My point? This bullshit about Linda being A-OK with the murders is just that: bullshit.
" Salem said...
OH
BTW
DR. POOP WHATEVER I THINK IS MARK TURNER..
BECAREFUL."
Salem, why would you say that? I have only been nice to you. To slander me here on a blog that I have been posting on longer then you is rediculous. I'm feeling like this is a witch hunt. You owe me an appology because I am not Mark Turner. I don't understand why you would do this. Why do you even care about him.
Salem, Your acting parnoid. And your the only one I see calling people names! YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY!
I don't understand why you are telling people that I am Mark Turner. Why Salem?
chasingbunnies said...
>>He has to say something to add to his story in his "book." He can't just leave a blank space there.<<
He doesn't HAVE to describe Linda Kasabian standing on the walkway staring at him in horror while he killed Frykowsi. That's not a good enough reason to assume he is lying. It just doesn't make sense.
>>>To be honest, If I wrote my memoirs or my autobiography, I would have to leave several chapters blank. I'm reading a book right now. It's a memoir, called "Running With Scizzors" so, I am supposed to think the guy who wrote the book is totally truthful? He remembers every single second of every single day of his 40 years on this planet??<<<
Of course not, our memories are spotty and not always linear especially as time goes by. But it still doesnt make sense that Tex (and Leslie) would lie about Linda's reaction, since that doesn't serve them in any way. So Tex lied about Linda's reaction just to make his book sound more interesting? Why not have UFO's landing on top of the Tate house too? Sorry, just does't make sense.
>>>>By the way, Tex Watson is a confessed murderer, who was allowed to procreate and have kids of his own while in prison. How can he live with himself?? He killed a pregnant soon to be mother. What a phucking piece of sociopathic shit he is.<<<<
Your indignation is noted, and you'll get no argument from me about Tex's character, but it still doesn't add up to "Linda is the devil, Linda's description of her own reaction to the murders is all lies".
Dr.Dodopariti said...
>>>>I don't understand why you are telling people that I am Mark Turner. Why Salem?<<<<
Dr., a few weeks ago Salem accused me of being Mark Turner or at the least one of his "minions" whatever that means. This was all very interesting to me as I've never met nor interacted with Mark Turner nor posted on any of his sites. The first time I ever heard of Mark Turner was in this forum so you can imagine my surprise to find out that I *AM* Mark Turner! LOL.
But it sounds like Salem got burned but good by some folks in the online TLB world a while back so she has reason to be a little paranoid.
Try not to let it get you too upset.
Monk said:
"Dr., a few weeks ago Salem accused me of being Mark Turner or at the least one of his "minions" whatever that means. This was all very interesting to me as I've never met nor interacted with Mark Turner nor posted on any of his sites. The first time I ever heard of Mark Turner was in this forum so you can imagine my surprise to find out that I *AM* Mark Turner! LOL."
Thanks Monk, I do recall that Salem
called you Mark Turner. The only reason I know of him is because of Salem. I't burned my hide at first, but I'm over it now.
Monk,
Just one thing about Linda .why did she leave her child at Spahn Ranch .She said she was so afraid she she left the ranch.But she left her daughter there.
Tell me you would leave your daughter no matter how afraid you were
Joe said...
>>>>There's a difference between "Maria" from the Sound of Music and Linda Kasabian.<<<
That's what I said. I said she's NOT Maria.
>>>>>Granted, she isn't Sadie, but she did
1. Stay at the ranch AFTER she learned about Gary Hinman's brutal murder.
2. Drive the getaway cars BOTH nights. Stand look out at the Tate house.
3. Run from the law for FOUR months until a warrant was put out for her arrest.<<<<
Agreed on all counts (although I don't recall exactly how her learning about Hinman's murder went down. Was that in her trial transcript? - just my fuzzy memory).
Agreed, she is not Maria.
>>>>So, your assertion that she couldn't wait to go back to California to come clean is, if anything, disingenuous .<<<<
That wasn't my assertion. I never said she couldn't wait to get back. I said she didn't fight extradition. Don't put words in my mouth.
>>>>That fact alone -- her flight from the law -- makes her uncorroborated accounts of her behavior at the Tate residence highly dubious (“make them stop!”).<<<<
But it WAS corroborated, by Tex Watson. Whether or not you believe Tex's corroboration is another story, but he did corroborate it. In the absence of any of other way of corroborating, it works for me.
And as far as her flight from the law, while I agree it doesn't make her look good, it's not suprising to me that someone who traveled in hippie circles and with a fast and loose crowd would resist going to the police in 1969.
>>>>Kasabian, as has been proven by her continued criminal activities, was no better than any of the Family serving life sentences<<<
That's where I disagree vehemently. She *IS* better than Tex, Sadie, Katie, and Leslie. We can agree to disagree on that one.
60skid said...
>>>>Monk,
Just one thing about Linda .why did she leave her child at Spahn Ranch .She said she was so afraid she she left the ranch.But she left her daughter there.
Tell me you would leave your daughter no matter how afraid you were<<<<
No 60's, I wouldn't leave my child at Spahn, but it's kind of a moot point because I wouldn't have been at Spahn in the first place.
I won't defend her leaving Tanya at the ranch, it was a breathtakingly stupid thing for her to do, except to say that she didn't exactly leave and go to Disneyland. Instead of delivering messages to Bobby, Sandy, and Mary in jail which she was asked to do, she hightailed it to New Mexico to find her husband with the full intention of returning for Tanya. In her own words "I felt that as long as I didn't go to the police, Tanya would be ok."
Not an excuse but a window into what she was thinking.
chasingbunnies said...
agnostic monk said...
>>>LMAO Monk!! That was funny!!! Sorry guys but I laughed out loud here...
CB<<<
Sorry guys? Who are you saying sorry to? Maybe I'm the paranoid one but is it wrong of me to suspect I'm being played here for fun?
Joe, Lindasucks, etc. etc., it's a game, no?
catscradle77 said...
>>>Didnt she also burn her ex for dope or money or both and happily hand it over to Tex???<<<<
Yes, we've already established this. She did all these bad things and is basically more evil than another Linda - Blair - in The Exorcist. Bad Linda! Bad bad bad Linda!
:)
Monk,
won't defend her leaving Tanya at the ranch, it was a breathtakingly stupid thing for her to do, except to say that she didn't exactly leave and go to Disneyland. Instead of delivering messages to Bobby, Sandy, and Mary in jail which she was asked to do, she hightailed it to New Mexico to find her husband with the full intention of returning for Tanya. In her own words "I felt that as long as I didn't go to the police, Tanya would be ok."
Not an excuse but a window into what she was thinking.
Monk I am sorry but if you had so much fear of Charlie & The Family you would have taken your child .
By her leaving her child I am sorry she gets no respect from me.
No 1 reason I will never believe or respeck her
catscradle77 said...
>>>Another problem I have with Linda, is that being that fearful-at the Tate's in the bushes-she could have run and ran fast to somewhere to get help...maybe she could have saved lives that night, and if that would have happened, the LaBiancas the next night would be here...instead she got in the car...and drove them to the LaBiancas the next night...giving her the benefit of the doubt that she didnt know what she was driving to the first night...she could have gone for help..<<<
Cats, I agree about LaBianca. She could have tried to stop that somehow. She doesn't get a pass from me on Labianca.
I kind of disagree about Tate, though. The property up there is isolated and it was dark. There weren't as many houses up there then as there now. The nearest property wasn't exactly a hop skip and a jump away, and Linda had no idea where she was.
Maybe she could have put a Wonder Woman costume on and karate-chopped Tex to stop the killings?
Joe said...
>>>>After witnessing the horrific Tate slayings and being an accessory to LaBianca?! Because she was a "hippie" and it was "1969" she resisted going to the police? Wow, that's some rationalization. I hope if I'm ever in trouble with the law you're on my jury. (Well, yer honor, it's 2006 and I did it 'cause I just don't trust anyone anymore, what with this administration lying to us and all).<<<<
Joe (and by the way, nice to see you under yet ANOTHER forum name, Joe - wink wink)
You talk like I'm saying being a hippie was an EXCUSE for not going to the police. I assure you I am not excusing her for not going to the police, merely trying to get inside her head and understand her. I maintain that it isn't suprising to me that someone from a heavy drug-oriented crowd in 1969 would avoid the police. That's not an excuse.
60skid said...
>>>Monk I am sorry but if you had so much fear of Charlie & The Family you would have taken your child .<<<
You are correct, 60's, I would have taken my child and hit the road faster than you could say "ZezoZadfrack". As Cat's says, "Gun the engine sisterhood.."
But we're no talking about me, we're talking about Linda, a girl who was hanging out with these people in the first place.
catscradle77 said...
>>>If they had been there before-she knew where she was-if one can believe the rumors..dark hop skip and a jump or not...if I saw my supposed friends hacking up people I would take off, running down hills valleys streams and uphill both ways to get the hell out of there..so the dark or not knowing where one is, doesnt fly with me...<<<<
Cats, A.) I don't believe the rumors, personally.
B.) Yup, I would have taken off too. I would've been out of there screaming like a madman until I flagged down the first passerby to call for help. That's assuming and hoping I would have the presence of mind to think straight after watching a young man get his head blown up in a car three feet away from me by people I thought I trusted.
But, *I'm* not Linda, *I* wasn't ever at the ranch and didn't know these people, and *I* didn't have a daughter back at the ranch.
Monk,
What I saying is Linda is no better that Sadie,Tex,Pat etc
She had to go with the group because of her daughter.then she left her daughter with them
Her hands are just as dirty as the rest...she just got the deal
catscradle77 said...
Monk said:
>>>>if I knew my friends just Ginsued people and they knew I saw, I would go to the police for them to help me get my kid back<<<<
So would I Cats, so would I.
>>>>wouldnt the people you saw murder others more than likely say "Hey man, its cool ya dig..here is your kid" instead of causing a scene???<<<
Maybe they would, to avoid any hassles. It's possible. Or maybe they'd set up a nice, comfortable little spot for you to relax in, next to Shorty. :)
60skid said...
>>>>Monk,
Her hands are just as dirty as the rest...she just got the deal<<<
Sorry 60skid but that's not how I see it personally. I realize I'm in the minority on this, and that's ok. Not the first time and won't be the last.
catscradle77 said...
>>>But admit, she had to be a little warped to keep involving herself in the shiat.<<<<
Oh yeah I totally admit that. She clearly WAS a little warped to have even been involved in the first place. ALL of them were a little warped (some A LOT), even the kids back at the ranch who weren't at the Tate/Labianca scene. Spahn didn't exactly attract the non-warped type. They all had their issues and clearly Linda did too.
But when the shit hit the fan and the dust settled, Linda wasn't laughing and giggling in the courtroom while the coroner described Sharon Tate's mutilated body, and she also wasn't out on the street corner carving swastikas into her forehead while shouting threats of retribution into television cameras.
I believe Linda's remorse on the stand was sincere. The jury believed her too, and I don't think the jury was a bunch of naive dumbfucks without a clue. I doubt her acting skills were that good, otherwise she would have had the film career that Sharon Tate wanted.
I realize I'm speaking in RELATIVE terms here, but when push comes to shove I'd take Linda - coming so close to touching pure, blood-soaked evil, but backed off and didn't jump full-throttle into the flame - over just about any of 'em.
That's just me.
:)
Monk ,
You know The Col brings up a good point In a topic in September .
Why was Linda even chosen to go that night.She was new..I do not think she was in the inter circle do you ?
I really believe there is more to Linda story than we know
catscradle77 said...
>>>No they were a bunch of greed bastages with book dollar signs in their eyes like the Bug<<<<<
Greedy bastages? I wouldn't hold it against the jury for winding up on the most sensational murder trial of the time.
How many of them really wrote books? There was Zamora, and then that Baer guy's wife with her dumb Christian tract. The rest faded into oblivion.
>>>...and seriously, was that really a jury of Manson and the girls peers? Where were the Slippies/Hippies/Beatniks on that jury?<<<<
How many anti-establishment slippies/hippies were actually reporting for jury duty back in the day? Just curious. Maybe the Judge should have made a trip to Spahn Ranch and asked Sandra Good to be on the jury?
>>>>They were tried by surburbia, which wanted to believe Linda, needed to believe Linda, so their Hollywood fairytale wouldnt crumble..<<<<
That sounds really romantic and dramatic but I don't buy it. They were tried by people who heard the evidence and arrived at a verdict accordingly. They believed Linda because she came off as sincere and remorseful and (MOST IMPORTANTLY) because her testimony matched all of the physical evidence.
It's an interesting little "anti-establishment" perspective that you're offering, Cats, but I don't see it that way.
:)
60skid said...
>>>I really believe there is more to Linda story than we know<<<<
You're right, I think we should pistol-whip her based on what "we don't know" and on rumors spread by internet Manson fans.
catscradle77 said...
>>>>They were tried by surburbia, <<<<<
Actually let me reiterate. There might actually be something to the "tried by suburbia" idea, inasmuch as anyone who is accused of breaking societies gravest laws (like let's not kill each other) is "tried by suburbia".
But in no way do I think that mitigates Linda's sincerity on the stand.
Monk ,
60skid said...
>>>I really believe there is more to Linda story than we know<<<<
You're right, I think we should pistol-whip her based on what "we don't know" and on rumors spread by internet Manson fans.
Just because I am not buying The Bug and Linda story here
I know Linda told the whole truth ..Nothing but The Truth.. poor little hippie girl
Another thing I love the way she used her "GET OUT OF JAIL FREE CARD
Monk
You know over at the Turner board
They say Cat,Salem ,Bunnies & I are the Col Sheep .
I am proud to be sheep here ..with my sisterhood friends !!!
Salem.
60skid said...
Monk
You know over at the Turner board
They say Cat,Salem ,Bunnies & I are the Col Sheep .
I am proud to be sheep here ..with my sisterhood friends !!!
7:15 PM
baaaaaaa baaaaaa
I agree:)
The Sisterhood of sheep Love it
catscradle77 said...
>>She wasnt coached at all, was she Monk?<<
Cats, I don't know. I really don't. Do you have any evidence that she was? Until I see some evidence, I'm going with NO. Bug didn't need to coach her. Her story packed enough punch without coaching.
>>>I believe it does say jury of ones peers, honestly, I reckon I could be wrong.<<<
Ok so we're back to who should have been on the jury. Who were their peers? Why didn't Kanarek, Fitzgerald, and Shinn see to it that the jury was at least halfway packed with rough-and-tumble hippies? (not just the peace and love smokin' weed type).
>>>As long as it doesn't involve a rolled up newspaper, I am cool..a little old pistol whoopin might make her see the light...and she could join da revival..<<<
LOL, what revival is that? Is it a Charlie's Love revival? Are you gonna do as the Col mentioned and change Charlie's Depends?
60skid said...
>>>Just because I am not buying The Bug and Linda story here<<<
For the record, I don't really buy the Bug's story either. But distrusting the Bug does not necessarily need to include distrust of Linda.
>>>I know Linda told the whole truth ..Nothing but The Truth.. poor little hippie girl<<<
If you have any evidence that she lied on the stand, I'd be the first to admit I am wrong about her.
>>>Another thing I love the way she used her "GET OUT OF JAIL FREE CARD<<<
Well, duh, Of course she used it! I would too, 60s, in a heartbeat.
I guess Linda would have been deserving of less scorn if she had refused the immunity and offered to do life? LOL. yeah right.
Joe said...
>>>>Evidence her testimony matched:
1. Wallet toss
2. Clothes toss
3. Gun toss
4. Rudy Weber account of hose-washing<<<
Isn't there more stuff? Like Tex's rope, the position and manner in which Parent, Folger and, Frykowsi were found, Manson's leather thong used to bind Labianca's wrists, I'm sure there's even more but I dont recall. Not sure what the exact definition of "physical" is in terms of evidence but her story matched up to what was discovered, to much so for her to be wiggling her way through it. If she had been lying, I've no doubt the defense would have tripped her up.
But they never could.
60skid said...
>>Monk
You know over at the Turner board
They say Cat,Salem ,Bunnies & I are the Col Sheep<<<
I dont think you are his sheep. I dont think the Col WANTS you to be sheep. You just have your own opinions, as do I.
I've never really checked out Turner's board but maybe I will.
Salem said...
>>>yes, why did he not call the cops?<<<
because it actually never happened. The Bug paid Webber off to lie on the stand about this fictitious hose incident. The Bug made sure Linda told the same story at trial. The Bug even had Linda blow Webber a few times as a bonus.
Crafty guy that Bug.
Salem said...
>>>make sure ya donate some $$$$$$$.
take everything with a grain NO a pound of salt<<<<
dont worry Salem I always do, even if my Linda Love seems naive. I'm generally an astoundingly cynical person in most respects.
chasingbunnies said...
>>>She was cut from exactly the same cloth as the rest.<<<
LOL. you guys crack me up. thank God life is not as black and white as that.
Yepyep said...
>>>Just look at how she ended up...<<<
I think it's sad how she ended up. Seriously, her later years sound truly awful on many levels. Robert Kasabian, Tayna, Angel/Nathan, daughter number two Lady Dangerous. That family thing didn't work out so well for the Kasabians. And then allegedly disabled in a car accident. that SUCKS!
But I still think Linda Kasabian spoke truth on the witness stand, about everything.
Wait a minutew, folks, perhaps Maria Von Trapp is getting off a little easy here...now I know at least one of you won't think so ("Maria, I know Linda Kasabian, Linda Kasabian is a friend of mine...and, Maria, you're no Linda Kasabian")but take a closer look at what Maria really did...source: Rogers and Hammerstein
Those other nuns didn't like Maria all that much, evidenced by their singing "How do you solve a problem like Maria"...
Maria spent much too much time alone up in the Alps...long absences away from the 'family',...much like Manson himself...
Maria breaks up the impending marriage of the Captain (or whatever his rank was) and the Countess (or Duchess or whatever her rank was)...
Maria, in marrying the Captain, jilts the penultimate spouse, Jesus H. Christ, himself...
Finally, Maria too, like Charlie, seemed to have an unhealthy obsession with Nazis....
Monk.
My big dislike of Linda is what was she really doing to get the nod too go to the Tates that night.
I could do nothing but watch in horror while 5 people were killed
I am sorry but after I watched Tex kill Steven Parent. I would have gunned the engine sisterhood
I know it was too dark and she did not know where she was at. Yea
She leaves Spshn Ranch because she fears for her life. But knows her daughter will be ok
She uses her GET OUT OF Jail Card to keep leaving a life of crime.
Did she learn a lesson about drugs NO
1. Wallet "discovered" on Dec. 11 in the "black" neighborhood of Sylmar
2. Bloody clothes in late Dec. by TV news reporters
3. Gun "discovered" in police storage Dec. 16
4. Rudy Weber -- conveniently remembers license plate number FIVE months after encounter with killers (and WHY didn't he call the cops August 9, anyway? Went to all that trouble, trying to pull keys out of ignition, etc.)
You know Joe is right here. Why didn,t Ruby Weber not call the police ..after he heard about the murders
He has 4 strange people using his hose the same night of the murders.
I sure he had to know 5 people were murdered .. very close to were he lived.
I mean he was able to give the right License No..months later ..
I am sure The Bug did not help him out
60skid said...
>>>She uses her GET OUT OF Jail Card to keep leaving a life of crime.
Did she learn a lesson about drugs NO<<<
60s how do you know she didn't try in the beginning? I truly believe that she did try to make a life for herself, her husband, and her children out in New Hampshire after the trial ended. I think her intentions were to make the best of it and raise her kids.
Do you have any idea how devastating an addiction to something like amphetamines can be? Don't underestimate the insidious power of meth, it is a scourge on the planet and I've seen it wreck many a life, and it is only getting worse across the country. Addiction can easily trump any "lessons" she may have learned about drugs.
Agreed, she didnt try hard enough apparently, but I do believe she did TRY in the beginning to clean up her act. And NONE of us know what other circumstances might have been involved in her legal and family troubles.
And for all we know, she could STILL be trying right now as we speak. My hope for her is that she can make ammends with her past and her children and grandchildren somehow.
You guys writing her off like she's some piece of shit akin to Susan Atkins is really mean.
STOP BEING SO MEAN TO LINDA!!!!!
:)
Monk.
STOP BEING SO MEAN TO LINDA!!!!!
Monk I sorry if you like Linda good .My self I do not buy into her little I am so sorry story.
Bottom line if she would have got help that night ..maybe some of the victims at Sharon Tate house would be alive. If she would have got help The La Bianca's would have never happened.
I know what drugs can do to you Monk..the line of work I do. I see it every day. She may need the drugs ..to live with the sounds of the victims.. she did not help.. I wonder if she hears Sharon begging for her baby life. I wonder if she still sees Abigail being chased . while she stood there .
I feel she should have done some time .. not life ..but some time in prison .. Not a free pass. to keep up the same life style
Just so you know ..just because I do not believe Linda "s story.. I am not Pro Manson
Monk I am not trying to give you a bad time. I just do not buy Linda story
She like William Garretson ..Oh I was there..But I just watched and he says I heard nothing
60skid said...
Monk.
>>>She may need the drugs ..to live with the sounds of the victims.. she did not help.. I wonder if she hears Sharon begging for her baby life. I wonder if she still sees Abigail being chased . while she stood there.<<<
I wouldn't be surprised at all if her extended druggie lifestyle (extending well past those late teens/early 20's years when a lot of us were experimenting but were able to move on as we matured) was very much related to living with August 8th 1969 at the Tate property in the back of her mind forever.
You put it well, 60skid, about hearing the voices of the victims, of still seeing Abigail being chased with the knife. She probably sees and hears it everyday of her life, not to mention having to return to Los Angeles several times to recount it all over again on the witness stand for Tex's trial and Leslie's re-trials. She was also in jail from late December 1969 through mid 1970. I'm not saying that erases her fuckups, but she's been punished enough as far as I'm concerned.
My guess is even Linda herself looks back on not doing more to save the victims and can't make sense even to herself about what she was doing or thinking those two nights.
It's hard for me to explain what I'm trying to say about Linda Kasabian and where the spirit of forgiveness and compassion that I feel comes from.
All I can say is that *I* think she's done her time, so to speak, has had it even rougher trying to survive on the outside than the girls who went to prison and got taken care of by the state, and I merely keep her in my prayers that she could somehow turn things around even at such a late juncture in life.
You guys can hate on her all you want, but unless I actually got to meet her and talk to her and actually SEE for MYSELF the DEVIL that you see in her, I'll ***NEVER***, ***EVER*** believe she's cut from the same cloth as the actual killers. Not for a second.
Oh no! Am I sounding as sappy as Savage when he goes on and on about Susan Atkins? Kill me now. :)
60skid said...
>>>Monk I am not trying to give you a bad time.<<<
No worries 60skid I'm not taking any of this personally at all.
Although I will say that I suspect SOME folks are trying to rile me up just for fun. I know how things work in here sometimes. Which is ok.
:)
chasingbunnies said...
>>>>Just curious, but how would you feel if Linda Kasabian had been a male who did the same things? Would you feel the same way?<<<
Bunnies, that is a VERY good question, and I will have to think about it for a little while before I answer, because I'm honestly not sure.
Seriously a good question, one I would never have considered had it not been presented to me.
Monk,
Oh no! Am I sounding as sappy as Savage when he goes on and on about Susan Atkins? Kill me now. :)
Yes Monk you are sounding a little sappy
My self I believe Linda have more involvement then she claims
But since I have no books or police reports to back me up .I will not get in to it.
I think I will agree to disagree with you Monk
Yep Yep, I have been posting here since the Col started his blog. As of late a group of people here have attacked me personal and accused me of things. How is that better? It's not.
Col, your blog is being destroyed. Do you care?
Dr.
Dr.Dodopariti said...
Yep Yep, I have been posting here since the Col started his blog. As of late a group of people here have attacked me personal and accused me of things. How is that better? It's not.
Col, your blog is being destroyed. Do you care?
A group a people attacked you ?
when did I attack you ?
Andy
andy said...
I've only seen a picture of you in a bikini on a beach. Next time take the top off or you won't be able to get a tan.
And where did you see this picture
Salem
There are 2 Andys on here
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