Friday, December 07, 2007

The Order of Red and Blue


I just saw this interesting special that Bret sells (thanks Bro). It was an Australian 60 minutes thingy and part of it interviewed Sandy walking around a lake yelling at people who ran a papermill. Calling them worse than child molesters and the like. This was like in 1990 or something and bitch was looking old then. She wanted to save the trees and water and shit.


This got the Col wondering. It seemed to me sometime prior to 1975 but post 1971 this ATWA bullshit started up. Maybe only Red and Blue and Susan Murphy really believed it. They seemed to IMO but then at least two of them were batshit insane in my opinion.

Probably some masturbatory thing Charlie came up with in order to make it seem that they had noble causes all along, I wonder if anyone has any idea where it all came from? When was the first documented mention of ATWA and nature etc?

169 comments:

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

I first heard of ATWA / Rainbow society in 1975, but it could be older... and no I don't have any documentation for this. Just fond memories of peaceful protests, which really did shut down some polluters, including several paper mills and nuke plants here in MI.

ATWA isn't / wasn't just Red and Blue, Green and Gold and Silver, although they carried the torch. ATWA is a worldwide movement, albeit un-organized. Perhaps organization isn't necessary.

And dear Col., though I respect you, you'll likely not consider it "BS" when you have to buy Poland Tree bottled air along with your Poland Spring bottled water.

ColScott said...

It's BS insofar as Charlie believing it...it's bs as far as having anything to do with the murders...it's bs as far as Red and Blue ... so that is a lot of BS.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Agreed, nothing whatsoever to do with the murders.

Yet Charles Manson = ATWA = breath = spoken word = ysbredaiedd = spirit = truth = life.

But I am proselytizing , when I promised that I wouldn't, much. Shall wait until the day when you are trapped next to me on a crowded bus, and then expound upon the concept for hours, to see if you can attain enlightenment through the droning sound of my hypnotic voice. Hee hee.

My youngsters tell me that ATWA actually stands for "Ass, Tits, Weed, Alcohol". Little philistines that they are. x:-)

Scramblehead said...

Yes Charlie believes it. Anyone with common sense would. He has talked at length about it in at least a handful of different recordings. He wasn't the only one in the '60s who was aware of the inevitable environmental destruction caused by PIGS that don't a rat's furry tail about the survival of future generations.

Scramblehead said...

sorry:

"...don't GIVE a rat's furry..."

catscradle77 said...

I don't know, but it seems more of a control thing from prison. The rules changed, instead of free love and all that, it seemed as if they had to cover themselves and refrain from all the activities that they used to do.

As far as being into non-pollution and all that as well, Charlie set his cell on fire a few times, which indeed does cause air pollution.


Bottled water, there isn't any regulations on that stuff. I could pull water from my toilet and call it "Cat's Springs" and sell it...

Marliese said...

How were Charlie and his friends protecting the air, trees, water and wildlife while they were squatting at Spahn's Ranch and elsewhere?

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Charles has been a vegetarian since the mid-sixties, if that's any help in the time continuum thing.

Let's see, low environmental impact at El Rancho de Mucho Awesome-o: Gardens. Using rainwater for irrigation. Little electricity, no TV. Recycling junk automobiles and making them into viable working vehicles, instead of sending them to the scrapyard. Greywater reclaimation. Burning dead wood / paper trash rather than petroleum products whenever possible, for cooking and heat. All kinds of recycling, before there were recycling centers. Using horse powered implements and horses for transportation. Doing the wash in the river, then hanging it to dry. Using environmentally-friendly products such as green soaps before such things were readily available on the common market. Home birth. Not using cosmetics or any other animal-tested product. No hunting, no consumption of meat. Eating perfectly good food that was past sell-by, and the unnecessary regulations imposed by the bureaucracy, instead of wasting it.

Keep in mind that Your Humble Narrator wasn't actually there. Just sieving information from the flowing river of consciousness. And dear Col., I'm not actaully proselytizing, truly; Marliese darnwell ASKED me.

deadwoodhbo said...

AC i like to think of it has this.Instead of days of our lives its corcoran the days of make a awesome soap.I cant stand red or blue neither one did charlie any favours.Has much has i turn on the old man i do know for a fact he loves animals.

Heaven said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
agnostic monk said...

I side with the Col on this one, for sure. concerns about pollution played into the their vague sense of dissatisfaction with and anger towards the establishment/society, but this ATWA business became an exaggeration that sandy and lynn glommed onto in later years to get attention and to rationalize these atrocious murders.

It would be interesting to find out exactly when the ATWA term was coined. Was it just lonely Charlie figuring out ways he could keep his last two girls hooked on him?

deadwoodhbo said...

Welcome back monk:P

agnostic monk said...

thanks deadwood and heaven!!! my boss doesn't seem to care that he's been cutting into my blog time. it's sweet to be told that you're missed. I never think anyone pays any attention to the things I write in here, LOL.

Marliese said...

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...
"Charles has been a vegetarian since the mid-sixties, if that's any help in the time continuum thing.

Let's see, low environmental impact at El Rancho de Mucho Awesome-o: Gardens. Using rainwater for irrigation. Little electricity, no TV. Recycling junk automobiles and making them into viable working vehicles, instead of sending them to the scrapyard. Greywater reclaimation. Burning dead wood / paper trash rather than petroleum products whenever possible, for cooking and heat. All kinds of recycling, before there were recycling centers. Using horse powered implements and horses for transportation. Doing the wash in the river, then hanging it to dry. Using environmentally-friendly products such as green soaps before such things were readily available on the common market. Home birth. Not using cosmetics or any other animal-tested product. No hunting, no consumption of meat. Eating perfectly good food that was past sell-by, and the unnecessary regulations imposed by the bureaucracy, instead of wasting it.

Keep in mind that Your Humble Narrator wasn't actually there. Just sieving information from the flowing river of consciousness. And dear Col., I'm not actaully proselytizing, truly; Marliese darn well ASKED me"

~


I never knew there was agriculture being "irrigated" at Spahn's Ranch...were they growing crops? And I imagine there wasn't much electric power in those shacks anyway, maybe a little at the cafe and perhaps George's house? And recycling automobiles...wasn't it more a small time chop shop of stolen and borrowed vehicles than a recycling center? All these years later, it's easy to trip on ruts of embedded car parts still littering the land out there. Have never heard that they were riding horses into town.

As for food, i imagine any past the sell by animal protein in the dumpsters probably wasn't fit for consumption. A few certainly weren't bashful about accepting Dennis Wilson's hospitality... food, beverage, medical and dental care, so they say.

And hasn't Sandra said in interviews that she delivered her child in a hospital, attended by a physician?

Not being argumentative, just saying i don't believe there was a sincere or even conscious commitment to environmental concerns in those days.


~Marliese
sorry about the long previous post quote.

Heaven said...

Marliese said...
Not being argumentative, just saying i don't believe there was a sincere or even conscious commitment to environmental concerns in those days.


I so totally agree. For people so concerned about the environment, they sure left the ranches looking like landfills. I doubt that any of them truly have conviction for what they claim to believe in.

As for Charlie the vegetarian, not according to police documents. After his arrest in October 1969, he was in his cell gobbling up hamburgers that were provided to him while the girls refused to eat any meat.

Marliese said...

Gobbling up hamburgers! LOL! Why that little hypocrite. Thanks for the visual Heaven. Reminds me of someone saying that once in awhile Sadie would go out on a meat binge chowing down on cheap steak at Denny's...

deadwoodhbo said...

As for Charlie the vegetarian, not according to police documents. After his arrest in October 1969, he was in his cell gobbling up hamburgers that were provided to him while the girls refused to eat any meat
i am not sure about the 60s but i am 100% sure that while in corcoran prison charlie has never ate meat,sweets yes but never meat.
Dam do my posts make sense,my sentance writeing isnt very good.

Heaven said...

I wasn't there of course, but the jail records do say that Manson was served hamburgers in his holding cell and the guard watching him wrote that he saw him eat them...

=)

Heaven said...

Marliese said...
Gobbling up hamburgers! LOL! Why that little hypocrite. Thanks for the visual Heaven. Reminds me of someone saying that once in awhile Sadie would go out on a meat binge chowing down on cheap steak at Denny's...

9:10 AM, December 09, 2007


Exactly.. They were all supposed to be vegetarians but Susan says she used to sneak off for a steak..

Let's also not forget that vegetarian Ruth Ann was giving out acid laced hamburgers in Hawaii...

=)

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

No meat for Charles at San Q either, according to people who knew him when.

Perhaps the COs in holding offered him NO food for days, except meat, in an attempt to "break" him? Hey, they've done it to Muslim prisoners in the present day, too. Eat this pork, Hassan, or starve.

The ranch was a major landfill prior to "Family" occupation; they actually did a lot to clean it up. I reckon it was somewhat like here in MI, where people simply opened the back door and threw their crap outside, for years. Ignorance. We hauled at least forty truckloads off the PaganStock site. Found bottles from the 1930s about two foot down. Anyway.

Then after the police raids at the Ranch, well, of course the place looked like it'd been trashed. Ever seen them toss a semi-truck suspected of hauling contraband? They are not careful or delicate with ones' treasured possessions. Look at pictures of the ranch: the kitchen, the common room, the exterior. Doesn't look like a dump to me, it looks rustic but rather well-kept.

Okay, there were several accustations of stolen cars being chopped into dune buggies. Some arrests. Any impounds? More importantly, any convictions? Was it an actual operation, or just more accusations / hassle?

Just like the credit card records previously mentioned, a good concise police investigation should've included these documents. Perhaps they slumber peacefully in a banker's box in the good Colonel's basement.

Heaven said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jean Harlow said...

what you mean the victims didn't commit suicide?

Don't forget that Leno stopped off at the ranch to pinch those leather ties to tie his and Rosemary's hands behind their backs so it would be more convenient for Tex and the others

;)

Heaven said...

LOL Jean!!

=)

agnostic monk said...

a.c, I can totally appreciate a contrarian perspective, makes life interesting. but I think most of the Family folks who are talking freely admit that stolen credit cards and car theft were a part of their group life. I'm pretty sure Tex and Susan have confirmed this, also Catherine Share, Leslie, even Paul Watkins before he died. Bobby, too.

The only person who goes on record to downplay these activities seems to be Sandy, which is ironic since her use of a stolen credit card at the Sears store sort of set off the events of that August 8 evening.

Hmmm. Maybe that's why she defends the killers and calls them "good soldiers." Maybe she feels guilty that she and Mary getting busted factored into what happened.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Hey youse guys, a hopefully polite yet simple request... could you please stop posting other folks' previous messages in their entirity; rather utilizing a snip of a quote? If we wish to re-acquaint ourselves with the entire post, we can refer to it by scrolling up. Thank you kindly, and have a lovely and blessed day.

And now, we return to the discussion at hand...

Agnostic Monk said, "I'm pretty sure Tex and Susan have confirmed this"

(Eye roll) Oh yeah, I sure do believe EVERYthing that Tex and Sadie say. They've accepted tsirhc as their savior, and grovel before the parole board, hallelujah, so therefore THEY are the most reliable sources. Not to say that I haven't missed your commentary, good to see ya.

Someone remarked on a previous post, that Charles admitted his presence at the LaBiancas' home to Diane Sawyer. My opinion: A deliberate exaggeration to a big-money media entity, who has a preconceived notion of what occurred, and acting as outrageous as possible to make a statement about poor quality jouralism for the purpose of selling block advertising space to large corporations, is very different from lying to one's friends. The rich detail imparted in my bedtime stories, albeit rather convoluted, wouldn't be so readily available if he were dissembling.

And what would be the purpose of lying to ME? I'll send more stamps anyway. To perhaps spare my delicate sensibilities? My husband has killed more people than the entire population of CSP-Corc One and Two and San Q combined. That is what happens when one drops bombs the size of boxcars onto a tent village. He describes it in elaborate detail over Thanksgiving dinner. So nothing that Charles could possibly say would shock me in the least. Ironic isn't it? One man receives a good paycheck, a chest full of shiny things, medical insurance and a decent post-war job for having efficiently murdered thousands of women, children, elders, pregnant ladies, dogs, donkeys and camels, not to mention a goodly portion of Saddam's elite Republican Guard. The other man gets life in prison for a discussion w/ friends about their having killed seven people. Eight counting the baby. Rationalize as thou wilt.

Monk said, "Family folks who are talking freely admit that stolen credit cards and car theft were a part of their group life"

Yeah, they were outlaws, turned over some merchandise, used other people's credit cards. Freely admitted. That does not equate to capital murder. And I noticed nobody actually answered my question, those of you who've studied the case in minute detail... HOW MANY genuine, righteous ***convictions*** ?

And now, back to our regularly scheduled diatribe on Available Triumvirate Windjamming Apparatus...

Folks are making it sound as if everyone within la Familia del Nino de Hombre came to instant environmental awareness simultaneously, only to backslide, sneak, cheat, renounce, practice hypocracy, and so forth. Not so. Those who became slowly and painfully All the Way Aware, dropping off meat consumption here, the use of chemical solvents there, took a while to adapt to a sustainable lifestyle. Charles owned a leather shirt, for instance, and look at all the trouble that caused... revenge of the mad cow?

Your humble narrator still misses her kitchen bleach like a long-lost relative; the baking soda and borax just aren't cutting it, but my grandchildren enjoying drinkable groundwater is more important to me than vanquishing the rust stains in the toilet bowl. Sadie snuck off for a steak, a speedball and pulled a train with sixteen bikers, Sandra gave birth to a healthy child while enduring modern invasive conventional medicine, and is that makeup I see on Cathy's lovely elfin face? It takes a while, folks. The good people within y Ffhaine na' plentyn y Dyn at least took the steps toward saving the biosphere... what're ya'all doing?

catscradle77 said...

I am not sure who was convicted.
But even if they were not, doesn't mean the stuff wasn't going on.

And I fear, my idea of a righteous conviction and yours would differ.

Pristash said...

AC said: The good people within y Ffhaine na' plentyn y Dyn at least took the steps toward saving the biosphere... what're ya'all doing?

Me, I'm at my computer, reading your post from your computer...

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Pristash: My computer will very soon be powered by the endless gentle winds drifting lazily off Lake Michigan, as soon as the gol-darned consarned turbine company finds the accursed parts to the dad-blasted inverter they promised me TWO MONTHS ago!!! (They are probably hiding right next to the LaBiancas' drug stash...!)

Cats: A righteous bust is one that I cannot argue my way out of. x:-) Hee hee.

Marliese said...

So convictions for auto and credit card theft (might as well add child neglect etc) equate with responsibility, but not convictions for capital murder? Oh but the murder convictions probably were not righteous and genuine. Is that right?

Jean Harlow said...

I am thinking that the good people within y Ffhaine na' plentyn y Dyn are probably in the pub and don't care

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

That particular trial was one of the worst ever conducted in Amerika: inadequate public defenders calling no witnesses, evidence tampered with or missing, conflicts of interest abounding, deals with real accessories (hello Linda) handed out like candy, Nixon, himself a murderer and B&E artist, weighing in to sway public opinion, no tox screens on the victims, no checking alibis, and so forth. So no, I really don't consider it righteous. More like, well, the ultimate travesty against justice.

Would it be Plentyn Dyn , Plentyn yDyn or just plain apDyn? apRho?(Manson in Welsh).

catscradle77 said...

Umm they did screens on the victims.
Alibis-I am confused??

Marliese said...

Whether and why the murder trial was not in your opinion genuine wasn't the point.

You asked about convictions for auto and credit card theft. (accusations are not credible without convictions i suppose) However, if the trials ending in murder convictions were not genuine, why would the process for auto theft etc be any different?

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

One would hope there would be sufficient evidence for a conviction, not just hearsay.

Like, um, "Mr. Manson forced me to steal that car. He compelled me. He fed me LSD and played me the first heavy metal anthem ever produced repeatedly, which made my poor little brain hurt so, that I was required to steal cars or have my psyche dissolve into a puddle of ooze, and I think he was there when I did it" = hearsay. No evidence.

vs.

The vehicle, on my property, with no Vehicle Identification Number, or someone else's VIN, no license, no registration, no bill of sale, no title, OR parts with no "junk car registration" (they have those in CA, right?) with no name signed to it = genuine evidence.

The vehicle would've been impounded. Fake titles seized. People arrested, bonded, held, convicted, sentenced. You know how it works. The story prolly would've made the newspapers, too.

But that doesn't seem to be how it works in the fair and lovely state of California. Or at least it wasn't in the early 70s.

Goodness me, but we've ranged far afield of Associated Testimonials Witholding Armistice, haven't we? Yet I maintain that was the real reason for Mr. Manson's subsequent conviction. Or part of it, anyway.

Marliese said...

No, a.c., we haven't, not really. It was said early on that it was bs.

I'm just a tad too pragmatic for your perceptions of the truth. Even when he admits to something, enabling excuses are made..like blowing smoke with Diane Sawyer.

agnostic monk said...

Tex and Susan might not be the most reliable sources, but when they ALL seem to agree on something and that something does not make them look better, I tend to believe them.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Arrgh, drat, that was me who deleted. Let's try this again.

Marliese commented: "It was said early on that it was bs."

Um, no, the Colonel expressed an opinion that he *thought* it might be BS. And asked for documentation of the earliest mention of an environmental movement as related to Charles, Lynette & Sandra...

Of course, those who wrote the books didn't bother to mention the environmental experiments participated in at Spahn's boulevard of broken dreams. Saunders was too focused on the sex and drugs. Bugliosi was too focused on becoming governor and making his fraternity brothers happy. Myself, I wasn't even aware of the riding stable business until I heard it from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Because the winners document history and therefore make it.

Monk Commented: Tex and Susan might not be the most reliable sources... I tend to believe them.

Their well-coordinated defense was "Blame Charles". He's powerful, you know. So much so that he was able to reach out from behind the walls, in the days before Global Tel-Link, and force Gypsy to hold up a sporting goods store. So arm-twisting people into committing grisly murders must've been a piece'a organic carrot cake. Perhaps he can compel the Treasure of my Heart to quit smoking cigarettes, before she ruins her lovely singing voice.

And (jumping up and down sobbing in frustration, which isn't the least bit pretty) there is NO concrete EVIDENCE tying Mr. Manson to EITHER murder scene. No fingerprints. No hair. No DNA. No footprints. Weren't all of the above found, and presented as evidence, for each of the other individuals convicted? Nothing but the ties off a shirt. In a communal environment, where everyone shared clothing.

Now please go Google the West Memphis Three. Another "ritualistic" murder. Horrifying crime. Pagan overtones. Vic tied up with shoelaces. Mutilated body. No real compelling evidence, just testimony of questionable sources. Three young men, imprisoned for 15 years. And now, DNA evidence points to the vic's stepfather. Who is a nice, fine upstanding wealthy CHRISTIAN. His hair was caught in the shoelaces.

After that, please Google Leonard Peltier. Gruesome pre-meditated murder of FBI agents, suspect an Indian activist. Who had several corroborating witnesses, stating that he was screwing up his recovery in a local watering hole at the time of death. Didn't matter. He's been in prison at least 25 years.

Sometimes justice is miscarried in our fair nation.

deadwoodhbo said...

Poor Charlie lol this that who where when no wonder he stands on egg cartons in the unit and preaches to who ever will listern.He is turning down vists and locking himself in his cell.Now i dont always agree with him but i have to voice my opinion for what its worth(not much:P)when he choose's to be he can be a warm kind hearted person who for those who he truely thinks of has friends, and that does not conist of red or blue there is one unknown member of the family he still has regular vists from .the order of red and blue is has Col so nicely put it BS.Even today charlie will say Judge Charles Herman older was a dam good judge.

agnostic monk said...

my point was simply that car theft and stolen credit cards were aplenty. I never said Charlie brainwashed anyone into committing those or any other crimes.

Am very familiar with the WM3. crazy story. those kids truly are victims if they really are innocent. I don't put Charlie in the same category.

agnostic monk said...

So ace, let me just make sure I understand you (and don't take this as an attack because it is not, am merely conversing): you are of the opinion that Charlie dropped Tex, Katie, and Leslie off at the LaBianca's but that he did not enter the LaBianca home? And when Charlie himself has admitted as much, you are suggesting he is just playing games with Diane Sawyer?

As for the latter point, I am not sure how plainly admitting to something of that nature on camera in any way mocks the corporate media, however much the media might deserve to be mocked. This wasn't Charlie in full "Ok, I'll play your crazy Devil" role. it was a clear, succinct admission, followed by the assertion that despite having done so, he still managed to "stear clear" of the murder. Like a proud career criminal.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Monk: Yup.

Deadwood: The visitor forms got jacked up with a little help from the first watch COs. We're working on it.

Heaven said...

Poor misunderstood Charlie.. Maybe he should have pulled Linda's pigtails!

=)

Jean Harlow said...

A.C.,

No, as far as I know there wasn't concrete evidence against Manson found at either the Polanski or the LaBianca households. But you are wrong when you say there was physical evidence against all the other people convicted of the crimes. Fingerprints for Tex and Katie - no one else. Hair they "thought" might belong to Sadie (but there wasn't the dna science to prove it) - nobody's footprints (jump in anyone if I am wrong) nothing linking Leslie or Linda Kasabian.

Plus there was sloppy police work but I am sorry to compare Leonard Pelletier to CM is a crime in itself and being the racist that CM is he would be insulted to be compared to LP in the first place.

deadwoodhbo said...

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...
Monk: Yup.

Deadwood: The visitor forms got jacked up with a little help from the first watch COs. We're working on it.

8:16 AM, December 11, 2007
AC warden adams refused the vist,who are you getting this infor from?i think you need to talk to charlie himself.he has shown your denial form to quite a few people perhaps kenny can help you out

deadwoodhbo said...

sorry to post again here is the prison number AC (559) 992-8800 call and ask for yourself ,because someone is giveing your false info your vist was not aproved something about criminal records .this is not ment has a bad post just call the prison

Heaven said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
agnostic monk said...

Hi A.C, thanks for your answer. So I'm assuming you do not think that charges for LaBianca should have been brought against Charlie (since he only sat in the car and didn't enter the house). In that case, certainly you agree that charges should also not have been brought against Atkins or Kasabian for the same crime. All three sat in the car while the killers headed into the Waverly Drive house. So therefore all of them are equally culpable or non-culpable. So, charges for all or charges for none?

(keep in mind I am referring ONLY to the night of LaBianca, not to Tate and not to anything else)

agnostic monk said...

jean you are correct. No physical evidence linking Van Houten or Kasabian to any crime scenes. I don't even think there was any physical evidence linking Tex or Pat to the LaBianca crime scene (am I wrong? prints on any of the weapons???) not sure if the bloody Healter Skelter counted as physical evidence, I don't think it did.

Heaven, wasn't there a small bloody footprint found on the front porch of Tate that belonged to a female but that could not be matched to any of the females known to have been present? I don't remember Susan's being found, but I can't recall all the details.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Deadwood: Criminal record? News to me. But JIC, I'm having a friend who is a police officer run my stats. Cuz if there's any outstanding wants or warrants, I really wanna know before there's a .38 police special pointed at my temple, which would spoil my coiffure.

Sgt. Vella-Lopez told me that Charles had turned down all visitors. Charles himself said that he did not recognize my long legal name, (mispronounced!) rattled off at 6am by first watch, before coffee, nor could he see my signature and realize, "Oh, that's Ace, my girl who never shuts up"!

Or perhaps, Warden Adams thinks I'm up to something... and being a fine upstanding law-abiding citizen, I am sincerely outraged. Kenny was not aware of this as of, hmmm, couple hours ago.

The rest of youse: Bored to tears yet by the Continuing Corcoran Soap Saga? Sorry!

Monk & Heaven: I distinctly remember the "Death Row hair" which belonged to Sadie (at Tate), and didn't they do a handwriting sample to match the writing to Patricia (at both scenes)? But yeah, handwriting is definately physical evidence!

And no, Monk, I'm not maintaining that Charles sat in the car, I am maintaining that he wasn't there at all. He may have dropped folks off, (that was the statement that was duly answered "yup"), but he had an alibi placing him at The Ranch that Never Sleeps at the vics' time of death, which was never admitted in court. And, um, ever considered that there may have been MORE than ONE car?

Oh, and as for Charles no longer being pals with Red... he just told the Blossom of my World how much she sounds "Just like Squeaky" with her little high cartoon-character voice.

Charles's love for Lynette will never die, like Arthur for Gueneviere, like Naise for Deirdre, like Cucullain for Emer, like Tristram for Ysolde, and like lots of other obscure Celtic folk heroes whom you've never heard of, some of which were also locked in separate towers for 40 years and communicated by breath and spirit; my how history repeats itself.

Jean, one more comparison: Don't like the Peltier metaphor? How'bout Malcolm X. Pimp, drug dealer, thief, bad guy... who happened to spearhead a cultural revolution. As I recall, it ended badly for him, too.

Heaven said...

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...
Monk & Heaven: I distinctly remember the "Death Row hair" which belonged to Sadie (at Tate), and didn't they do a handwriting sample to match the writing to Patricia (at both scenes)? But yeah, handwriting is definately physical evidence!


It wasn't "death row hair" it was a death row fingerprint. They didn't find any hair belonging to the killers and even if they had, DNA testing wasn't available in 1969.

As for the handwriting, during the trial Patricia doodled the words Healter Skelter over and over on a piece of paper. The DNA wanted it analyzed by a handwriting expert but the motion was denied.


Monk, the bloody footprint was never matched by the police, it was just a process elimination. Susan was the only female who was barefoot. She couldn't wear shoes because of all the sores on her feet, it was a female footprint and she was the only barefoot female who walked out the front door...

=)

deadwoodhbo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
deadwoodhbo said...

well im the blog idiot what would i know anyway i do surjest you call the prison though (559) 992-8800 .anyway how would the blog idiot like me know charlie .

Jean Harlow said...

oh deadwood, charlie would know you because you are just so darn cute... :)

Monk, can you send heaven an updated email address because I have a personal message for you.

Hi Cats and Heaven, Monk and the Col.

Did you Col. ever get any more information about Debra Tate? Just curious

Jean

Heaven said...

Hey Cats, if you're around can you please email me?

I had to reformat my computer a month or so ago and lost all the addys I had in my address book..

Thanks!

Hiya Jean

=)

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Deadwood, in no way was I implying that you're an idiot; just that I'm getting very different information. You know how that grapevine goes. And... no wants or warrants, thank Goddess, now to pay $25 to accesss my record (they got us comin' and goin', don't they?)

As for the "death row hair", Heaven, well it serves me right for reading those darn books.

As for Attuned Telemarketers Watching Astronomy, I was told it started "Some forty years ago, before Al Gore, before any of these other people realized that we need air to live, for without air without breath there is nothing, we are nothing, we're the walking dead. Cut down all of the trees, and there won't be any air, any breath, any life, no survival. First there was The Word, and the word is air, the word is breath. Breathe in, breathe out..."

(I love it that the Wise and Mighty Colonel posted this question, it was, like, giving a free license to preach The Truth, hee hee, remember Col. YOU ASKED!!)

"...before anybody else did recycling, we did recycling, we had to, scrap metal and catching water in a barrel, planting the seeds. We were telling them, don't be sh*tting in the water, then drinking the water. Don't be cutting down all the trees. Now we're all gonna be dead..."

"I still hold out hope."

"Only if we re-plant the trees, the seeds, put as many seeds in the ground as you can..." (and you ask does he really believe it???) "... and clean up this mess that they left us. And stop using that bleach, if it kills the bacteria, it'll kill YOU!"

See, ya didn't have to wait another month for Manson Speaks, after all!

Marliese said...

Ac, seems you're in the know...so did he go up to Cielo to see what the kids did?

catscradle77 said...

Heaven, a mutual friend is emailing you my email addy. I cleaned house too, and lost a bunch.

Without sounding more bitchy than usual, I would like to make a few comments:

1). Alibis. Charlie admits to tying up the LaBianca's. Places himself restraining the victims.

During the Penalty Phase of the trial, we had everyone and their brothers, confessing to crimes they didn't commit (i.e. Leslie even confessed to killing Gary), so why in the hell wouldn't someone who could get him off, testify? To me that is stupid.

Also, at the point of the murders, the only functioning car was the Swartz mobile, which they did indeed use, and feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

If Charlie is such a believer in karma and such, maybe the karma fairy will have someone and their friends invade his cell, like he and the others invaded the LaBianca's home. If he indeed did nothing, then he has nothing to fear.

deadwoodhbo said...

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...
Deadwood, in no way was I implying that you're an idiot; just that I'm getting very different information. You know how that grapevine goes. And... no wants or warrants, thank Goddess, now to pay $25 to accesss my record (they got us comin' and goin', don't they?)
AC your right everyone is telling different storys i apolize ,i thought about it and your right DAM SOAP>peace AC

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Woo-hoo, got sunshine on my shoulder and a gallon of whiskey in my tank bacause...

!!!MY VISIT WAS APPROVED!!!

So maybe I shall ask what went on at the Polanski residence that dark August night... Or NOT. Maybe I'll just gaze deeply into his eyes, inhale the wisdom of the universe, and get brutally crushed during a rousing game of chess.

Watch a fat lady turn a cartwheel, 75 cents!

Heaven said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
agnostic monk said...

hi Jean, my email addy is agnosticmonk69@yahoo.com. feel free to email any time.

: )

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

I will SOOOoooo take pictures!!!

And smuggle a file in a cake for Kenny and Frank and Hook...

And Charles is not in the Hole, he is in PSU, which allows CONTACT visits. Yeeees. Now he just needs to manage to stay out of trouble for two whole weeks.

Cal-eee-forn-YAH here I come!

agnostic monk said...

A.C. what exactly is this suppressed evidence that Charlie was back at Spahn's by the time the LaBianca's were being killed? You know if all he ever did was just drop Tex, Leslie, and Pat off at the LaBianca home, he wouldn't have made it back to Spahn's before the first knife wound. It wasn't exactly around the corner. Unless the killers and the LaBiancas settled in for a nice long game of Monopoly before anyone was killed?

(and this is all assuming he didn't actually drive with Susan, Clem, and Linda out to the beach to find a second murder scene - even though he did)

Heaven said...

*cough*bullshit*cough*

Marliese said...

Heaven, LOL!

You put it all in the proper perspective for me.

catscradle77 said...

Actually Monk, it was the game of Life.

deadwoodhbo said...

Heaven i remember raven from cg's manson site i have a member there a couple of years now and your post's are awesome you know alot about the case thank you for shareing it with us.

deadwoodhbo said...

whoops i have been a member

catscradle77 said...

LOL, Deadwood...

And this whole visit thing has me confused a tad. First you were approved and planning, then you weren't, and now you are again..

I find it interesting that they would give contact visits to someone in the Psych ward, especially a high profile, "trouble maker" (in their eyes). Also, I would think that they would really investigate someone that was on Charlie's list, and that they wouldn't be in a big hurry to approve anyone. I have heard the process can take months upon months to get approved to see a prisoner, let one the "status" of Manson.

I visited someone on death row here, and the process was very time consuming to get approved. And this was not a contact visit. He was shackled, behind glass the whole time.

Help me here please..

Heaven said...

Thank you Deadwood!

Raven had to be the dumbest Ruth Ann impersonator of them all. She couldn't answer even the easiest of questions, unless of course the answer was easily found in one of the zillion books...

My favorite, my absolute favorite was the computer image Raven took from a 1970's issue of The Enquirer and was passing it out telling everyone it was a recent picture of herself LOL

Not that was funny!

Cats,

I just spoke with someone who talks with Manson occasionally by telephone.. They said the same thing you just said. Getting in to see Charlie isn't something you get with one phone call, it's a much longer process. Most people get denied. They want you to have a very good reason to get in and see him. They carefully screen each person to see if their reason is legit or just another fruitloop..

I'm also told that as of right now, Mansons privileges have been suspended do to disciplinary issues so he's not even allowed visitors at the time..

Why am I not surprised to know this was a BS story to start with? lol

Heaven said...

OOPS, should have read

Now that was funny!

=)

catscradle77 said...

Thank you Heaven.

I just had a tad bit of confusion with that story. And it is now clarified. I thought it would take some time, and it confused me a little.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

We'll see. Lots of IFs, including purchasing plane tickets around that one holiday ya'all insist on celebrating, which jams up the shopping and mail for the whole darn country. If not by the end of December, then soon. Either I'll buy the pictures, or the staff's one shabby Polaroid will get the chilblains, and I won't.

It was not that difficult, truly. Had to do some paperwork, have the background screen, send 'em ID verification, get staff approval, get his approval. Started mid-October. Ended Nov. 30th, although they let me sit and spin until yesterday.

And Charles is not in the Psych unit, PHU is protected housing unit, for high-profile guys, those who have been attacked, those whose affiliations render them succeptable, those who have debriefed, and so forth. Nor is he on disciplinary action.

The pix on Manson Direct are from a recent visit by one of Charles's friends. (Lookin good bro).

And my very good reason? Why, saving our biosphere from total extinction, of course. Life is so very utterly grand.

Heaven said...

No problem Cats..

It really is a bit of a no brainier. You don't get in to see one of the countries most notorious prisoners with just a simple phone call.

I wonder if the Col is reading all of this.. If so, your thoughts Col?

=)

catscradle77 said...

Okay cuz in your one post you said:

And Charles is not in the Hole, he is in PSU, which allows CONTACT visits. Yeeees. Now he just needs to manage to stay out of trouble for two whole weeks.


--And PSU is the Psych Unit.

Jean Harlow said...

A.C.

who cares if you are going to visit the man to discuss environmental issues. Is he going to do a powerpoint presentation/film like Al Gore and win the Academy Award or the Nobel Peace Prize NOT...

and (big and) if you ask him about the Polanski/LaBianca houses ... how do you know he would tell you the truth when he doesn't even really talk about it all ...what makes you special?

oh man... get me some coffee :)

and mon Colonel ... perhaps we need a new topic

agnostic monk said...

it always amazes me when someone suggests that charlie possesses the secrets to cleaning up the environment. can he also cure AIDS and soothe the israeli-palestinian conflict?

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

You're right, Cats, I put the wrong acronymn... it's PHU. Protective Housing Unit. Which is easy enough to look up on the Internet.

Jean: Al stood upon the shoulders of better men and threw money at the problem, while refusing to allow wind turbines to be built along the Atlantic coast... for they would spoil the rich folks' view.

Well, golly, my frail ego is simply destroyed, here... since my entire self-esteem is wrapped up in whether or not you'uns believe me about this matter... but long about January 4th or 5th, check out my blog, why don't'cha?

And still and all, we have yet to answer the sixty-four-thousand dollar question... when and where was Abraxas'a Tolerant Wildlife Academy first documented? Geez, we are so very easily distracted, maybe we need a collective dose of Ritalin to sharpen our focus?

catscradle77 said...

Thanks for your concern, my attention and focus are quite sharp.

I just avoid the stench of utter bullshit and don't deem it necessary to devote my energy to it.

While a fine question, for it is asked by the esteemed Colonel, legend of the TLB world, it still boils down to sniffing out the bullshit, though it probably would grow some fine veggies, it is aromatic in a very bad batshit way.

Heaven said...

catscradle77 said...
Thanks for your concern, my attention and focus are quite sharp.

I just avoid the stench of utter bullshit and don't deem it necessary to devote my energy to it.


I couldn't have worded it better myself!

=)

deadwoodhbo said...

ok guys it is true ac is going to see charlie and he is very excited about her vist ,i talked to the love of my life today and he put charlie on the phone ,He said he is looking forward to seeing ac and her vist is most welcome.i never like to say online i know charlie because WHO THE HELL CARES!!!!! hope you guys understand what im saying.
and PLEASE COL!!!!!! a new subject would be most welcome.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Thank you, Becca. Ain't been able to talk to the guyz lately... gotta work and earn the phone bill money! I'm glad he knows, since I didn't get a chance to tell him my ownself yet. Sloooow mail. And when are you gonna go see Frank? A couple other ladies are gonna visit Kenny at the same time. We could have arm wrestling tournaments, or play volleyball on the patio, or square dance, or something.

And I STILL wanna know... when was Antitrust Telemarketing Wolverines' Attorneys established? Not that it's actually established, or anything. Somebody tell me quick, before I run out of acronymns!

agnostic monk said...

I would have to drag my Jess Bravin book out of a pile of boxes, I'm pretty sure he more than anyone (other than Charlie, Red, and Blue) would have a good time frame for when "ATWA" started getting bandied about. Looking through some other sources, it seems 1974-5 were the magic numbers. That's when Red and Blue started visiting factories and corporations wearing their nun outfits and warning about the apocalypse, culminating in that fateful Sacramento day.

I can just imagine Charlie in his cell. His co-defendants are starting to refuse communication with him, Bobby doesn't care about him, folks like Gypsy and Cappy are heading into the wind, Mary wants nothing to do with him. Linda essentially spits in his face. His friends, who in the past so easily hung on his every word, are basically getting bored to shit with his mind games. "So," he thinks, "I will mold these vague concerns about pollution that we've been yapping about into a cohesive, ritualistic belief system, complete with rules and liturgical garb. Hippie sex/drugs/rock and roll/death worship are falling out favor with my aging friends, this new canon will entertain the ones who truly still care about me".

For a while it did. And we sometimes question whether or not there actually was a "quasi-cult" mentality surrounding Mr. M?

Pristash said...

Squeaky pulled her assinine assassination thing in 1975...was she wearing red? Can't tell in the black and white photos of the day, but of course had been wearing her garb for a time before then...so the whole ATWA BS probably saw the light of day in 1974.

AC, last week's NYTimes magazine which you can still see online for a bit had some interesting ideas about the future of energy...not the least of which was airborn wind turbines...check it out.

catscradle77 said...

Deadwood--


Weird question, what is your beloved doing in Protective Housing-the PHU with Charlie?

And do they let the men wander around in the PHU or is it basically like lockdown all the time?

deadwoodhbo said...

catscradle77 said...
Deadwood--


Weird question, what is your beloved doing in Protective Housing-the PHU with Charlie?

And do they let the men wander around in the PHU or is it basically like lockdown all the time
Cats these guys have tvs pay for view tv and because it is phu there is hardly ever lockdown unless the guards are needed in other areas of the prison .charlie has his guitar and is looked after well frank has been his friend for 10 years i dont like to put this on the interent because its nothing to boost about so i usely say nothing.AC is a good friend of charlies she makes him happy,i dont know her too well but her heart is in the right place.i cant say why frank is in phu sorry but i can say i enjoy your posts,thank you for makeing me feel welcome here.

catscradle77 said...

Thank you Deadwood..

And as long as everyone is happy, and all is well. It is the holidays, but we need to be good to each other all year.

I was just trying to figure out things, and only having limited experience with penal systems, I am always looking for information that is solid.

So, thank you.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Well, I owe Deadwood big time for my being pals w/ Charles, since she had Frank give him my phone #, which is soooo much more awesome-er than relying on the creeping slowness of overland mail (aren't they still using ponies?) Frank and Kenny and a few other guys on that unit help him with mail, legal forms and so forth.

Pristash: Thank you for the NY Times info. Solar power won't cut it here in MI -- what is this sunshine of which they speak?

Agnostic: Sex, drugs and rock & roll will never fall out of fashion. Gods forbid! But thanks for the book reference.

Charles in his cell is more likely thinking, "Hmmm, I have some truly brilliant ideas for reclaiming the biosphere. Sure wish a few bored women with skills in research and development, marketing, and distribution would come along and help me present them to the world..." And the Gods heard his request.

agnostic monk said...

AC, I say this in a friendly manner, but when it comes to devising strategies to protect and restore the environment, I have my bets on men and women other than charles manson. The guy hasn't been outside of prison since the year of my birth. He probably has very little understanding of the modern world, let alone it's increasingly complex problems. He talks a good game but that's always been his strength.

But, maybe you'll surprise the naysayers and future generations will be hailing manson's brilliant ideas as having saved humanity.

Again, all in good fun. We all get our share of ribbing in here. It'll be my turn again soon.

: )

agnostic monk said...

Col, someone is trying to email you to request membership to your blog. Just an FYI.

catscradle77 said...

Yanking the crap out of Linda's pigtails....there ya go Monk...

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Charles has been taken to SHU, "the hole" for a rather dubious rules violation. Thanks to Deadwood and Natasha for letting me know.

Supporters: New address is same as the old, except it's 3 rather than 51. No phone calls. He may only receive embossed envelopes, no stamps, no priority mailers. Of course, this completely jacks my visit, but I am more concerned about his health and well-being. Can always visit later.

Will find out more info on Mon. when I call his counselor. Please look on my blog, myspace or email me so it doesn't clog up the Colonel's discussion group w/ off topic posts. Thank you.

Marliese said...

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...
Of course, this completely jacks my visit,



Well that didn't take long...

Heaven said...

Marliese said...
A.C. Fisher Aldag said...
Of course, this completely jacks my visit,



Well that didn't take long...

7:16 PM, December 16, 2007



Funny how that worked out huh? lol

catscradle77 said...

Man, the dude can't even stay out of trouble long enough for you to visit. You would think as much as a friend you have become to him, he could at least to that.

The mean old guards must be picking on him again.

Jean Harlow said...

Oh darn... I am so upset... I was supposed to meet Linda K for a coffee at the local Starbucks but she can't make it... boo hoo

can we pretty please with sugar on it have a new topic

Marliese said...

Funny how this thread started out about bs, continued with bs and ended up even more bs. Quoting Col "that is a lot of bs."

Marliese said...

Yeah funny how that goes, Heaven. lol.

catscradle77 said...

LOL..I see Jean having a show called "Latte with Linda".

Marliese said...

"Latte with Linda" !
LOL.

deadwoodhbo said...

Ahh life at long last.......i do care about charlie but its frank that rocks my world .i agree new topic

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Yeah, well, our lives ain't over just yet... Once the charges are resolved I can still visit SHU but it's only for an hour per day Sat. and Sun. (rather than six hours each day for four days) and behind glass rather than a contact visit. But I'll take what I can get. It's about supporting him & ATWA rather than my ego gratification.

Marliese said...

And probably no photographs, huh?

deadwoodhbo said...

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...
Yeah, well, our lives ain't over just yet... Once the charges are resolved I can still visit SHU but it's only for an hour per day Sat. and Sun. (rather than six hours each day for four days) and behind glass rather than a contact visit. But I'll take what I can get. It's about supporting him & ATWA rather than my ego gratification.

5:32 PM, December 17, 2007

AC i hope you get to see charlie i know he means has much to you has frank does to me.I dont make fun or point fingers ,its a terrible blow for you.

deadwoodhbo said...

Marliese said...
Funny how this thread started out about bs, continued with bs and ended up even more bs. Quoting Col "that is a lot of bs."

8:50 AM, December 17

I dont think thats a fare statement why is careing about charlie BS?

deadwoodhbo said...

Heaven said...
Marliese said...
A.C. Fisher Aldag said...
Of course, this completely jacks my visit,



Well that didn't take long...

7:16 PM, December 16, 2007



Funny how that worked out huh? lol

4:37 AM, December 17, 2007

catscradle77 said...
Man, the dude can't even stay out of trouble long enough for you to visit. You would think as much as a friend you have become to him, he could at least to that.

The mean old guards must be picking on him again.

5:48 AM, December 17, 2007


Jean Harlow said...
Oh darn... I am so upset... I was supposed to meet Linda K for a coffee at the local Starbucks but she can't make it... boo hoo

can we pretty please with sugar on it have a new topic

8:24 AM, December 17, 2007


why all the mean remarks?

catscradle77 said...

Really I don't think I was being mean.There is truth to what I said, being if a visit means that much, you would think there would be no trouble to be had.

And the general comment is that the guards to stuff to Manson, because they pick on him, not because he causes trouble. And if you look at his behavior over the years, perhaps it is a little of both.

Heaven said...

I don't really think anyone is being mean.. I thought it was funny how it all worked out..

A friend of mine who speaks to Manson by phone said his privileges
had been taken away because of behavioral issues and low and behold, that's exactly how it worked out... Amazing!

=)

Jean Harlow said...

AC I hope you get to see Charlie... I do... but I don't want to hear about it anymore - and I think that most of the people here don't want to hear about it anymore... why don't you post more when the visit is over.

Deadwood I am not trying to be mean but enough is enough... I appreciate that while you are with Frank and you only occasionally mention him.

And really the fact is that Charlie is a habitual con (look at the quote the Colonel uses) ... I think he has been screwed by the system to some extent especially in his younger years but not in the past 38/39 or so years...if he wasn't in the system for murder he'd be in jail because he was a long time offender or because of statutory rape, theft, assault, drug use or whatever so to me its a dead subject and comparing to him to Nelson Mandela (a considered terrorist in his time), Leonard Pelletier, Malcolm X or Martin Luther or Martin Luther King is even more bs.

Jean Harlow said...

and now back to our regularly scheduled programming "Lattes with Linda" LOL

Marliese said...

deadwoodhbo said..." dont think thats a fare statement why is careing about charlie BS?"




It's a fair statement from my perspective. My perspective probably being much different than yours, no?

Perhaps if the OT visit thing had been presented a tad more coherently, I might find it a tad more credible...
No offense, just my opinion.

Heaven said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
deadwoodhbo said...

ok now thats all done and dusted,thank you all for being honest and i do enjoy all your posts.......NEW TOPIC:P:P:P:P

agnostic monk said...

i don't seem to be able to follow this thread anymore I can't even figure out what's going on but I think what heaven is saying makes some sense, no offense personally to AC, if she wants to chat about charlie by all means do so, it's just that this case and manson himself seem like a weird magnet for fakes and frauds and I'm sure some of the veterans are a bit jaded by that. can't say I blame em.

agnostic monk said...

jean, your description of chuck is spot on, IMHO. I will never understand the misunderstood peaceful folk hero image. boggles my mind as much as the "most dangerous man alive" media hype does. he is neither. but that's just my opinion. and I agree that had manson not been incarcerated for this sensationalized crime he would likely be so for something(s) much more mundane, but incarcerated nonetheless.

I think he is responsible for where he is. not his mother, not the press, not the inyo county "pigs", not sadie, red, or blue, not bugliosi, not linda kasabian, and certainly not ANY of the victims.

Brian Davis said...

Wow ! This has been one wild thread to read !

I often wish there was a way to get everyone verbally together at once for a live discussion of this case. I have so many questions.

For example, In the raw interview with Geraldo back in 88' or so, Manson says, "...I'm talkin' about Melcher when he broke his word, he didnt do what he said he was going to do...when Leno LaBianca got stabbed all up and all that gold and all that stuff was laying all around. The little black phone book from New York hit list was gone. That came off the top of another penitentiary, Leavenworth, Kansas. That came off the top of that poker game over there in Nevada, over where the divorce courts are running down through Denver and all that. In other words, there's more to this road than you see, see."

Manson went on to reference that little black book again later in the same interview. Geraldo was too stupid to ask him about it both times. So it was never addressed.

Does anyone know anything about this little black book that is supposed to be some hitlist ?

The ATWA thing...I do agree with the Col in that "it's bs as far as having anthing to do with the murders". I think Sandy and Squeeky got involved to the extreme with ATWA just to have something to proudly carry and hang on to for Manson and to in someway make up for not being part of the chosen ones.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

For updates on what condition Charles's condition is in, please check my blog.

And my excitement about the visit was intended for supporters to share my joy, as far more people read than post here. Pix really ain't that important, I can wait until I shed another five pounds, right?

And Sandra and Lynette will *always* be the chosen ones, I chew their dust with ultimate respect.

And Amazing Turtles Wildly Agitating shall prevail over pollution, non-sustainable fuel sources, and so forth (thank you Davey for this cool acronymn and subsequent slogan, "we may be slow but we darn well get there!")

Brian Davis said...

If I may clarify and admit, unfortunately, I have never had the experience of speaking with Sandra Good or Lynette Fromme. Therefore, my opinion of Sandy and Squeeky carrying the torch for the ATWA is based on what I have read and heard in their interviews.

With that being said, I do believe ATWA was their "Tate-LaBianca", so to speak. I realize we cant compare Tate-LaBianca to what Squeeky and Sandra did in terms of actual crimes but it was all for Charlie. The murders, the Hawthorne robbery/shootout, ATWA. Wasn't it ?

I also think Sandra in particular does or did believe in very sincerely and passionately, her fight for the ATWA or enviornment.
I do not believe that is an act.
Maybe I'm gullible but from the interviews of her I've seen, I believe her in that respect.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Quoting Charles, Mr. Davis wrote:

"The little black phone book from New York hit list was gone..."

I bet that sucker read like the La Nosa Costra Yellow Pages.

Heroin: Sammy, 555-1212
Prostitution: Fred, 555-6969
Kneecaps: Guido, 555-4444

And the missing vice without a corresponding telephone number? Why, Mr. LaBianca had his OWN number memorized, didn't he? No need to write it down...

But we'll never know, because the little black book is either mouldering at the bottom of the ocean, or else Mr. Bugliosi keeps it in a bank vault, and its blackmail opportunity is still viable and valuable.

Heaven: When I am seeking attention, I brag about my children. Who are utterly completely awesome, BTW.

Deadwood: Thanks for support, and your flag to Frank has been flown as of 11:00 pm Eastern Standard via KC.

Ms. Harlow stated that Charles might be in jail for "statutory rape, theft, assault, drug use.." We are Cymru. You folks might call that stuff crime, but we call it "Culture" !!! Statuatory rape = marry 'em off quick. Assault = Something to do on a Saturday night. Theft = Welshman's perogative.

Mr. Davis, again: If Charles had orchestrated the Hawthorne robbery, don't'cha think that he would've told them to steal the correct ammunition for the proper guns? Hey, perhaps susej told Gypsy to do it!

catscradle77 said...

Dunno. Wouldn't worry about what to call it.

If some 30 some year old man came after my 13 year old daughter, all that I would worry about calling would be an ambulance cuz the guy would be choking on his own nuts.

Jean Harlow said...

AC

Too bad CM isn't in Cymru so he wouldn't be in jail... Boy he sure screwed that up... I don't think the village where my dad grew up would be too keen on statutory rape, theft, drugs etc. but what do I know

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Cats: Well then, under those particular circumstances, YOU might be considered a murderer, eh?

Jean: American culture prostitutes all women, and most of the time, we don't even get a kiss. Open a magazine, watch a commercial. Bugliosi = spouse abuse, forced abortion (hey, more murder!), and breaking those vows of monogamy (why speak 'em at all?)

Brian: ATWA ain't a crime, so what exactly is the comparison?

Brian Davis said...

A.C. - ATWA itself is not a crime but threatening people over ATWA is a crime. The comparison is to show it was all done for Charlie.
I don't know if Charlie orchestrated the Hawthorne robbery or not, I never said he did, but it definitely was done for him. Just like the Tate-LaBianca murders and just like the extreme fight for ATWA was too. The fight for ATWA led to the incident with President Ford and the "stop polluting or else" letters.

catscradle77 said...

Well, yes I would be and I would proudly do my time and admit what I did not whine about it, or that he made me kill him.

I killed him-done deal.

And perhaps I did it for love of Another Tiny Wonderful Adolescent.

Brian Davis said...

"....Another Tiny Wonderful Adolescent."

HAHAHAHAHAHA ! Good one Cats !

catscradle77 said...

TYVM..maybe Jean will let me have a comedy spot on 'Lattes with Linda'...call it Cats Crazy Corner... :)

agnostic monk said...

AC I'm not sure I understand how you can be so cavalier about 35 year old men having sex with under-aged girls. You seem to have an elaborately worded rationalization for every bad thing charlie has ever done in his life.

And Sandy and Squeaky were just attention whores whose stupid little stunts did NOTHING to help stop pollution. Well, except for the fact that while Blue was in jail there was a little bit less hot air being blown about. Maybe during those 10 or so years there was a slowing down of the destruction of the ozone layer or something.

agnostic monk said...

"choking on his own nuts"

lol, cats. spitting coffee out of my nose is so much fun.

catscradle77 said...

LOL-was it ground first?

agnostic monk said...

no, coffee grinders use electricity and charlie doesn't like that.

catscradle77 said...

Well, have a fresh cup of "Choking on Nuts"

Jean Harlow said...

Cats, I think it should be more like Cat's Crazy Capucinno segment...

Jean "Linda" Harlow

;

Heaven said...

AC, we all have awesome kids...


=)

Heaven said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
catscradle77 said...

Monk:Well, except for the fact that while Blue was in jail there was a little bit less hot air being blown about.


---That explains global warming now.

Pristash said...

I have it on good authority that Roman Polanski thinks Jamie Lyn Spears is HOT.

Pristash said...

...and did anyone see Family Guy last night?

deadwoodhbo said...

Heaven

As for Sandra, she was as you said, an attention whore. If she truly cared about the environment, perhaps she should have gone back up to Spahn with some garbage bags and cleaned up their mess.

=)

4:53 AM, December 20, 2007

WEll Said!!!!!!! i have NEVER liked red or blue i find them fake in all they do or did.And just to get monk on the ball i dont believe in linda either:P

agnostic monk said...

deadwood you don't believe in linda? i assure you she exists, lol.

pristash what happened on family guy? did i miss a random manson reference?

deadwoodhbo said...

monk i dont believe in her goodie goodie act:P:P:P:P

agnostic monk said...

I understood what you meant, was just jokin with ya

: )

(p.s. I don't really see a "goodie goodie" act but that might just be me)

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Okay, ususally it takes a lot to rattle my cage, but this post managed to do it:

Heaven said: "Let's also not forget the Didi Lansbury said she left the family after she witnessed Manson having sex with the 10 (year old - sic) daughter of Dennis Rice..."

That would make Didi Lansbury a BIG FAT LIAR, since Rice did not even associate with the group until after Charles was held in jail, without bail after the murders, by Rice's own admission! Read it on "Manson to Jesus" under "Testimony", second & third paragraphs:

Rice: "After visiting Charles Manson in jail, my children and I went to live with the Manson 'Family.'... Charlie and the others were convicted of the murders and sentenced to die."

Usually you are astute w/ research but you kinda fell down with this one. So please retract.

Underage is in the eye of the beholder. My grandmother was 13 when married, 14 when she had her first child, Loretta Lynn was 13 when married, Jerry Lee Lewis married a girl who was almost thirteen, I got handfasted at age 15. This is something that is part of our "hillbilly" culture. Sorry you don't agree with it, but this happens in societies around the world: Muslim men often marry young women, two of the "Fort Dix Six" married girls who were 14; ladies in Africa and India are considered "old maids" if they're over 20. Supposedly the Virgin Mary was 14, and Juliet of Shakespeare's famous play was believed to be around 14 (I know, last two are fictional characters, but if it's common in literature, it's a common practice in that society). And I bet there are NO pregnant 14-year-olds in your town, right? Better they be part of a supportive loving group, but then you prolly have some negative comments about communal marriage as well.

Now, if you wanna read something WORTHwhile, here is a new website:

http://www.atwa.be/ONE_WORLD_ORDER__.html

I'm gonna be off-line for the next few days, because we have a family emergency and we're also preparing for our Solstice celebration. No hard feelings; have a wonderful, blessed and happy holiday.

Pristash said...

Well, apparently, it's from 2001 originally, so maybe lots more of you have seen it: On Family Guy, they are going to California to see the dog, Brian, who is in Hollywood trying to become a screenwriter. So the guy says, "I haven't been to California since I lived with my old family." and there is a flashback where there is a ranch and he goes into a room where Charles Manson and three girls are sitting on the floor. So the guy says something like "I just was invited to a party at Sharon Tate's house. You guys can come too if you promise not to embarass me!"

Pretty funny stuff. Would be even funnier if 5 people hadn't been killed that night.

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Heaven said...

Sorry for the deleted posts, my internet was being really goofy there for a few..

=)

Marliese said...

AC...
Is there ever any criminal or sociopathic act of Charlie Manson's that you don't justify in one convoluted way or another?

And you're okay with aborting childhood, and all the other often (if not for Loretta Lynn @@) devastating consequences of child marriage? You'd be okay with it for your kids because it was the way of your grandmother?

If this was 1969, would you be okay with your own prepubescent little boys or girls hanging at the ranch alone with Charlie and
his friends?

Heaven said...
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A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

It is difficult to either justify or rationalize something that did NOT happen. Cheerfully combatting the emotional outbursts w/ solid logic and a liberal dash of mysticism:

Dennis Rice did not even meet Mr. Manson until Mr. Rice read about the unfortunate incidents in the papers, watched the news on the TV, and subsequently visited Charles in jail. He did not have contact with the inhabitants of the Ranch prior, nor did his youngsters.

With all the accusations the "born again" Xians of Manson-to-susej have made, don't you think they all would've pinned that accusation on Charles, too, if they had the opportunity?

The children at the Ranch of Poetry and Inspiration were treasured, treated like royalty, deeply loved. Listen to the recordings, hear happy children giggling during the songs. Look at the photographs of joyful kids splashing in the watering troughs.

I do not "worship" Charles, nor do any of my esteemed colleagues on the Manson Family Roller Derby Team (tm), some of whom are Christians, others of whom are Pagans like myself, or agnostics or Buddhists. Charles is respected as a spiritual person, and loved as a friend.

Would I trust him with my kids? Definately. They speak to him on the phone about once a week (or did, prior to the SHU). My daughter communicates with him on a mystical level as well, which I can't really do... she can heal birds and animals, too, just as Charles did... shamans are born, not made.

As for young women, my daughter started her own ffhain with an older manat age 15, and she seems to have turned out all right, on a material level as well as spiritual. Good job, college 3.5 GPA, bought her house on a lake at age 19, plays seven musical instruments, and helps with all our various projects. Reckon them are some "devastating consequences" alright. (Read my blog for more brags & pix).

Not to imply that either Charles or The Jewel of my Family or any other spiritual person are anything other than human beings. They need to eat and sleep, they get cranky, they make mistakes, they fart and belch, they know sorrow and love.

And the talent for prophecy isn't all-inclusive, either. One can sometimes divine the weather and know when to plant the crops, but not fortell the vaguaries of NASDAQ. One can occasionally predict the future of our society if we continue non-sustainable practices, yet not realize that one's friends are abusing harmful mood-altering drugs and are gonna go apesh*t and kill people.

Magick is a crapshoot.

And now, since I am aware that my license to proselytize about Avenging Truth With Aggression is rapidly expiring, I present to you more delightful websites:

On My Space:

All the Way Aware (music and truth)
Charles Manson Discography (music)
Family Jams (music)
Official Charles Manson ATWA (politics, music, truth and other cool stuff)
Charles Milles Manson (page authorized by Charles and maintained by a friend)

Elsewhere on the Web:

Manson Direct (updates on Charles)

Defenders of ATWA (ecology, animal rights and other important stuff)

Psyche Zenobia's blog (music

Happy reading, Merry Christmas, Blod Iul, joyful Yule, blessed Solstice, and Braw Alban Arthan

Heaven said...
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catscradle77 said...

Allrighty. The giggling happy children, perhaps too stoned out of their collective childhoods to stop smiling. Not knowing what other children had or were doing. Dosing kids aint cool in my book.

And if Sadie tried to blow my boy, she would be eating her own green ooze. Is blowing babies a healthy thing, or is sleeping with dogs, just as Red told the one cop they did?

Just saying.

Would love a new topic...please oh pretty please Colonel Scott, sir....

Heaven said...

AC, just to help you out, here are a few blog entried the Col made about Dennis leaving hs kids at Spahn. This is just to show you that his leaving them there is common knowledge.

http://tatelabianca.blogspot.com/2006/11/suffer-little-children.html
No word yet on whether he mentions his young children that he left at the ranch to be sexually abused by Clem and others.

http://tatelabianca.blogspot.com/2006/09/20-questions-for-mark-turner.html
11- If Dennis Rice was doomed to purgatory for allowing his small babies to be molested at the Ranch, how much time out does he get for converting to Christianity?

http://tatelabianca.blogspot.com/2006/06/dennis-rice-says-he-loves-you.html
Of course, people like Dennis Rice (never did give us an answer about what happened to his children that thanks to him had sex with people like Clem, did he?)

http://tatelabianca.blogspot.com/2006/03/rice-phony.html
If it doesn't explain why Dennis left his children (those are his in the Hendrickson documentary) at the ranch to be used as sexual playthings as I understand they were (children under 10) then screw your false hypocritical Jesus worship Mr. Rice.


These are only a few. If you go to this blogs homepage, type in Rice, it'll give you all the topics that this was discussed in..
While it's true that HE (Dennis Rice himself) didn't "join" the family until after the murders, his children were members in his absence...

I hope this helps you in learning some of the facts of the case...

=)

Marliese said...

Hey it's great that your daughter hasn't suffered but the fact remains that many child brides, consensual or arranged, suffer devastating consequences ~ interrupted childhoods, no education, emotional and physical abuse, poverty, health problems from early childbirth etc etc etc.

And the children at Spahn Ranch, yes we've all heard and read how revered the children supposedly were, and i don't know what photographs you're looking at, maybe some vision in your own mind, but the ones I've seen are photos of naked, sunburned, dirty, malnourished children with hauntingly sad expressions on their faces...children suffering neglect at the hands of their parents and friends of their parents...you know, those people that went out and killed the mothers and fathers of other children for reasons still undetermined some 38 years later.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Um, Heaven, I see more speculation and conjecture, no hard facts. No concrete evidence. And no implication of Charles M., even if we were to stretch our imaginations and consider these statements as factual.

Just an accusation of "abuse" by conservative Xian authorities, to demean a society where clothing was optional. Clem was accused of indecent exposure, wasn't he? For wearing jeans with a rip in the crotch. If it's "abusive" for children to view human nakedness, then all Inuit children are abused, all Tlingit children are abused, all children in sub-Saharan Africa are abused, children in Japan (who commonly sleep w/ parents, even during lovemaking), all rainforest tribal children are abused... That was one of the justifications of the Native American Indian children being taken from their parents... they needed to be taught to wear clothing! They were trapped in the same tipi or lodge where their parents were (gasp) having relations! An insistance on body-image shame is a woeful part of our puritanic Amerikan heritage, and another painful symptom of the cancer that is Christianity.

Marliese: Not only is my daughter "not suffering", she is thriving. Rousing success in the material world is awfuly hard to dispute. Is nakedness and getting dirty somehow unhealthy? If so, the starched-petticoat Victorian era should've been the best, most mentally stable society EVER. Been told that rock and roll music is bad for children, too.

Cats: Yeah, I consider dosing children to be a dicey practice. Could be dangerous. So let's abolish the administration of Ritalin, Adderol, Valium, Prozac, Zoloft, and any other mood-altering substance within the public schools, shall we? No to mention those mandatory vaccines... Wish I had a nickle for every time I've had to advocate for a family whose public school system or medical establishment insisted on dosing children to keep them docile, quiet and free of pesky curiousity, I'd be a wealthy woman.

What would Charles be doing if he wasn't accused of orchestrating someone else's perpetration of crimes, and incarcerated? Well, yeah, he might be avataring Gwydion the God of wisdom, poetry, magick and thieves... but more likely he'd be co-headlining this year's Hogg Bash w/ David Allen Coe, and our stage would be in serious danger of collapsing from the collective weight of all the groupies. His inventions would already be patented, on the market, and the planet would regreen within a five-year period. And life would be most grand.

www.myspace.com/officialcharlesmansonatwa

Metal & Manson, moderated by the lovely Miss Herlaka Rose. She actually taped part of Charles's "Air" speech which I partly wrote out here and which also appeared on "One World ATWA".

Heaven said...
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Jean Harlow said...

AC (In the Christmas spirit, obviously believing in paganism you wouldn't believe in) please shut the fuck up.

Jean

Heaven said...

ROFL Jean!!

Well said!


=)

catscradle77 said...

Oh lord. ROFLMAO

A predictable response pertaining to the dosing.

I know I know, the shaman placed value on the use of certain drugs for certain purposes. (I know this being the daughter of the Wolf Clan medicine man and I are friends). But I do believe, that even said medicine man would have issues with dosing children with substances even under the guise of religion.

Nuff said. Such a predictable response. Had higher hopes on that one, honest Injun. (pun intended)

Happy Holidays and all that happiness to all.

deadwoodhbo said...

Heaven your knowledge on the manson case is awesome ,shall i be bold and say almost has good has Col:P.the rest of the group are great to.It is really nice to see people understanding this CRAZY! world.I would say happy christmas but i wouldnt mean it,dont like christmas all about how much money to spend .

deadwoodhbo said...
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deadwoodhbo said...

whoops me sorry

Marliese said...

deadwoodhbo said...
Heaven your knowledge on the manson case is awesome ,shall i be bold and say almost has good has Col:P.the rest of the group are great to.It is really nice to see people understanding this CRAZY! world.I would say happy christmas but i wouldnt mean it,dont like christmas all about how much money to spend .




Your posts have a sweet and gentle spirit, Deadwood.

Marliese said...

A.C. Fisher Aldag said... What would Charles be doing if he wasn't accused of orchestrating someone else's perpetration of crimes, and incarcerated?


I think he'd probably be long dead if he wasn't incarcerated.

Heaven said...

Thank you Deadwood!

I completely agree with Marliese, you have a sweet, gentle spirit..

I hope you have a wonderful Christmas!!

=)