...Truth has not special time of its own. Its hour is now — always and indeed then most truly when it seems unsuitable to actual circumstances. (Albert Schweitzer).....the truth about these murders has not been uncovered, but we believe the time for the truth is now. Join us, won't you?
Sunday, July 23, 2006
20th Century Part Three
There's no show without punch- the BUG clearly has nothing better to do than show up on TV!
I notice that Tex admits his "I'm here to do the Devil's business" statement. He denied it at trial. Here he admits it - I guess it's benefitial to him in this context -"It seemed like I was controlled by another power... as a matter of fact when I went into the house I said..."
The guy in the audience who says he's an associate of the family does look like the guy in green in the Bertice Berry posting. St. George. I'm not sure who Soupspoon is...
I know mine isn't the popular opinion, but I liked Gorightly's book.. I know it's a lot of books all rolled into one.. But it was worded so that it holds your interest.. Unlike Ed Sanders book which was boring as hell...
catscradle77 said... >>>if it was 1986, when the footage of Blue was filmed with the bracelet, why was she including the Sucatash sisters? I thought they had sworn off the Family by then???<<<
I think for the most part they had. Leslie had, Sadie had, I'm not sure exactly when Patricia did but I'm pretty sure she had by 1986.
Sandy was doing interviews here and there when she got out of jail and did some moving around and she still seemed to be clinging to the hope that the Family would all be together again, that the girls would come back to the fold.
Pat, Susan, and Leslie were probably cringing at the idea that she was still talking about them as though they were all still a Family.
Deb B said... >>>The guy in the audience who says he's an associate of the family does look like the guy in green in the Bertice Berry posting. St. George. I'm not sure who Soupspoon is...<<<
I have no idea who Soupspoon is, but the guy in the audience of the talk show with Doris Tate saying that the Family was "peaceable" was not George Simson (Sandy's one-time partner and guest on the Bertice Berry show).
George was not an associate of the Family back in the Spahn Ranch days. He's better described as a "wanna-be". He didn't come along until well after the murders and he joined up with Sandy to be an intermediary between sandy and Charlie (since Sandy was forbidden to see Charlie) and get the message of ATWA out there.
I don't know who the guy in the Doris Tate talk show audience was but he indicated he knew the Family back in the day. Plus if you look closely at their faces, you can tell they are not the same person).
catscradle77 said... >> I wonder if they watch shows with Sandy on them?<<
I wonder that too. Actually I wonder if they watch any TLB stuff when it airs or pay attention to anything written in books/online.
Can you picture them sitting in the prison rec room with a bowl of popcorn watching the 2004 Helter Skelter remake when it aired? Feet up on the coffee table, munching away,
"hey Les that actress is not as pretty as you."
"Gee thanks."
"hey Susan, that actress is MUCH cuter than you."
"Gee, fuck you."
"Hey Pat that actress playing you once played Annie on Broadway."
"Tomorrow, tomorrow I'll be paroled, tomorrow!"
"Oh look at the sad face they hired to play that bitch Linda all scared and confused when we all know Linda masterminded everything."
catscradle77 said... >>>I mean everyone in the prison has to know who they are anyways...and for stuff on A & E, or whatever to pop up all the time it makes me wonder...what do they say to people...to each other...to themselves..<<<
and have they had to deal with any significant harrasment from other inmates for their crimes? In a man's prison, baby killers are the lowest of the low on par with kiddie diddlers. No matter who did the actual stabbing, Susan and Pat are forever linked with the brutal killing of a just-about-to-be-born baby and his mother. Leslie too for any inmates who don't know the specifics.
and do they ever discuss Lynette and Sandy amongst themselves?
Do they remember them fondly? do they think of them now as nutters/obstacles to their release? Are they embarrased about the ridiculous ways they behaved in court during the trial? Do they ever reflect on getting on the stand and making up all kinds of bullshit lies to take the heat of themselves and Charlie? Do they feel even an eeensy-teensy tiny speck of guilt for trying to put everything on Linda or are they resentful of her for cutting the deal?
So many questions. I wish we could have that geriatric Family reunion one day with tea and cookies.
catscradle77 said... >>I wonder if Susan thinks about the deal she gave up.<<<
Oh I would imagine so. She has NO business feeling any resentment towards Linda (if indeed she does or did) since it was Susan's deal to lose. She's the moron who got up there on the grand jury witness stand and described the murders with glee. And she's the moron who recanted and ran back to Manson's side. She made her own bed. In fact, she made all their beds. And she set the stage for the much more sympathetic (from a prosecution standpoint) Linda to take the deal.
Does anyone know who Gold was? Sandy mentions the colors on her bracelet and when she gets to Gold she says "Gold is for a Family woman" but doesn't mention a name.
another interesting tidbit; when the subject of Manson as Christ is being discussed, there is a long-haired hippie-looking dude being interviewed by reporters in the courthouse who states that he believes Manson is a false prophet sent to deceive people.
I think that guy might actually be Bob Kasabian, Linda's husband who introduced her to Melton and Gypsy.
Was Atkin's deal that the government would not seek the death penalty against her? If so, I think she would have gotten life and may very well still be right where she is even if she had stuck to the deal. Could she have gotten parole?
GLH said... >>>>Could you imagine the outcome by now had Atkins gotten the deal instead of Linda? I would wager that Kasabian, as well as Clem, would have been paroled by now. Van Houten and Bobby would most likely have been granted parole. It would have put a completely different twist on the convictions, I think.<<<
Interesting idea, G. I don't know trial law, so I wonder if Atkins got the deal could Kasabian's attorney have petitioned for his defendant to be tried separately? The umbrella defense was chosen by the actual defendants was it not? Either way, Charlie, Leslie, and Pat would have hated Susan at the time for testifying, and Linda would most likely not have joined hands with them and sang songs while parading down the hallway nor joined in with the courtroom antics (IMHO), so I agree things would have looked a lot different.
>>>You might as well say "what if they had been in an accident on the way to Cielo....."<<<<
I volunteer to go back in time and slit the tires of Johnny Swartz 1959 Ford. Anyone got a time machine handy?
Deb B said... >>>Was Atkin's deal that the government would not seek the death penalty against her? If so, I think she would have gotten life and may very well still be right where she is even if she had stuck to the deal. Could she have gotten parole?<<<
It seems they left it intentionally vague because they obviously were concerned about her following through.
According to the Bug's book, they agreed to not seek the death penalty against her in either the Hinman, Tate, or Labianca murders.
The legal memorandum goes on to state "The extent to which the District Attorney's Office will assist Defense Counsel in an attempt to seek less than a first degree murder, life sentence, will depend upon the extent to which Susan Atkins continues to cooperate."
catscradle77 said... >>Was that Linda K. walking ahead of Leslie during her new trial? Linda with short hair and no pigtails??? (I am sorry Monk)<<<
LOL Cats. Are you referring to the shots of her in the big white shirt? Yes that is Linda walking ahead of Leslie but it was not during the re-trial, it was during the pre-trial arraignment period after they had all been rounded up. Linda is pregnant with Angel in that shot. I doubt Linda and Leslie were ever in the same room outside the actual courtroom during Leslie's retrial.
Leslie looks totally zoned out in that sequence dont ya think?
The Pat, Leslie, Squeaky, and Charlie interviews are from Diane Sawyer's interviews with them that I guess the A&E producers acquired from Sawyer/ABC. You can hear Sawyer asking questions even though they don't show her.
"I know mine isn't the popular opinion, but I liked Gorightly's book.. I know it's a lot of books all rolled into one.."
As of 2015, I've found a few Manson books to be like that or full of info culled from other books, like Guinn's one. Even Tex's first one has parts of HS when it comes to the murders. I don't think he honestly remembers the details from his actual memory.
"She has NO business feeling any resentment towards Linda (if indeed she does or did) since it was Susan's deal to lose"
Her final manuscript that was unfinished {The myth of Helter Skelter} found her still resenting Linda, if one reads between the lines.
agnostic monk said...
"And she set the stage for the much more sympathetic (from a prosecution standpoint) Linda to take the deal"
In the first instance Bugliosi hadn't wanted Susan. His initial response to her getting a deal was "We don't give that gal anything !" but he later was forced to concede that without her, they didn't have a case. Her lawyer, Richard Caballero seemed to think it was only a matter of time before she went back to Charlie and Bugliosi says that it was arranged that hers and Manson's arraignments were on different days because he didn't want them to meet ¬> he was afraid he'd persuade her to recant her grand jury testimony. He didn't think Linda could testify to anything other than Steven Parent's murder but he seemed to have her in the back of his mind if Susan was to recant. It was only when she did recant and he needed an eyewitness {not just to convict Manson, but all of them} that he went for Linda. Susan for her troubles more or less states that she recanted to protect her son from Charlie's threats while at the same time blames the prosecution for not protecting her and hoping she'd run back to Charlie so they could get Linda to testify as it was clear she "hadn't murdered anyone."
agnostic monk said..
"Susan was the true snitch IMHO"
And who did the prosecution learn Linda hadn't murdered anyone from ? Actually, they learned it from a surprising source......Leslie Van Houten. Before she was ever connected by law enforcement with the LaBianca killings and before they even knew her real name she was interviewed in LA in and around the last week of November '69 by Mike McGann. In that interview, she said three girls and one man were in on Tate and that 'Linda' was the one girl "who didn't murder someone while they was up there", clearly dropping Pat & Susan in it as murderers. Although Susan had told Virginia Graham & Ronnie Howard {and according to an interview in "Death to pigs", one Nancy Jordon} about the murders, they were jailmates and she wasn't expecting any of them to go and tell the police. She herself was only in jail because Kitty Lutesinger implicated her in the Hinman killing. So the point at which Susan became a snitch was when she was actually told that there was enough evidence to convict her and she decided to go before the grand jury. Leslie, Kitty and Danny DeCarlo had all beaten Susan Atkins to the punch as far as damning information to the police goes.
39 comments:
I notice that Tex admits his "I'm here to do the Devil's business" statement. He denied it at trial. Here he admits it - I guess it's benefitial to him in this context -"It seemed like I was controlled by another power... as a matter of fact when I went into the house I said..."
Self-serving pr*ck.
Tex Watson should be put down.
Maybe it's just me, but I can't get this one to load...
it is just you
but we love you very much
even if Manson himself never killed anyone
Thanks Colonel, that was great.
Is there anyway you can show that other program that was shown on the History Channel that has Debra Tate in it?
Thanks
Deb
And is there any footage of Bobby speaking? I am getting really piggy I know but what the hell!
LOL
Deb
LOL... I love you too Col Scott..
If I haven't told you lately, you rock!!!
=)
YAY! It finally worked.. Must have been a lot of people viewing it all at the same time
Thanks for posting these Col Scott
=)
Ok, help me out here.. Anyone know who the guy is that said "Yes, I was associated with them"?
=)
I think it was St. George.
Thanks Col., I love these videos. Deb, I know I just want more and more.
The guy in the audience who says he's an associate of the family does look like the guy in green in the Bertice Berry posting. St. George. I'm not sure who Soupspoon is...
Ahh gotcha!
Thank you
=)
Yepyep said...
Whenever I see Tex's face I want to punch it. Does anybody else suffer from this um 'problem'? ;)
Great doc, thanks Col! Here I get to see all the things I can't buy me over here across the pond :)
12:04 AM
I get that same feeling, but I don't see it as a problem : )
catscradle77 said...
Look in Gorightly's assembly of folk in his missive, you shall find the guy in the clip aka Soupspoon.
5:45 AM
LOL! Seems I need to buy yet another book.
ah yes I remember my cameo in GOGO's book
sadly the book was a waste of trees
I know mine isn't the popular opinion, but I liked Gorightly's book.. I know it's a lot of books all rolled into one.. But it was worded so that it holds your interest.. Unlike Ed Sanders book which was boring as hell...
Lots of good info, just poorly worded.
=)
catscradle77 said...
>>>if it was 1986, when the footage of Blue was filmed with the bracelet, why was she including the Sucatash sisters? I thought they had sworn off the Family by then???<<<
I think for the most part they had. Leslie had, Sadie had, I'm not sure exactly when Patricia did but I'm pretty sure she had by 1986.
Sandy was doing interviews here and there when she got out of jail and did some moving around and she still seemed to be clinging to the hope that the Family would all be together again, that the girls would come back to the fold.
Pat, Susan, and Leslie were probably cringing at the idea that she was still talking about them as though they were all still a Family.
Deb B said...
>>>The guy in the audience who says he's an associate of the family does look like the guy in green in the Bertice Berry posting. St. George. I'm not sure who Soupspoon is...<<<
I have no idea who Soupspoon is, but the guy in the audience of the talk show with Doris Tate saying that the Family was "peaceable" was not George Simson (Sandy's one-time partner and guest on the Bertice Berry show).
George was not an associate of the Family back in the Spahn Ranch days. He's better described as a "wanna-be". He didn't come along until well after the murders and he joined up with Sandy to be an intermediary between sandy and Charlie (since Sandy was forbidden to see Charlie) and get the message of ATWA out there.
I don't know who the guy in the Doris Tate talk show audience was but he indicated he knew the Family back in the day. Plus if you look closely at their faces, you can tell they are not the same person).
catscradle77 said...
>> I wonder if they watch shows with Sandy on them?<<
I wonder that too. Actually I wonder if they watch any TLB stuff when it airs or pay attention to anything written in books/online.
Can you picture them sitting in the prison rec room with a bowl of popcorn watching the 2004 Helter Skelter remake when it aired? Feet up on the coffee table, munching away,
"hey Les that actress is not as pretty as you."
"Gee thanks."
"hey Susan, that actress is MUCH cuter than you."
"Gee, fuck you."
"Hey Pat that actress playing you once played Annie on Broadway."
"Tomorrow, tomorrow I'll be paroled, tomorrow!"
"Oh look at the sad face they hired to play that bitch Linda all scared and confused when we all know Linda masterminded everything."
Munch munch munch.....
catscradle77 said...
>>>I mean everyone in the prison has to know who they are anyways...and for stuff on A & E, or whatever to pop up all the time it makes me wonder...what do they say to people...to each other...to themselves..<<<
and have they had to deal with any significant harrasment from other inmates for their crimes? In a man's prison, baby killers are the lowest of the low on par with kiddie diddlers. No matter who did the actual stabbing, Susan and Pat are forever linked with the brutal killing of a just-about-to-be-born baby and his mother. Leslie too for any inmates who don't know the specifics.
and do they ever discuss Lynette and Sandy amongst themselves?
Do they remember them fondly? do they think of them now as nutters/obstacles to their release? Are they embarrased about the ridiculous ways they behaved in court during the trial? Do they ever reflect on getting on the stand and making up all kinds of bullshit lies to take the heat of themselves and Charlie? Do they feel even an eeensy-teensy tiny speck of guilt for trying to put everything on Linda or are they resentful of her for cutting the deal?
So many questions. I wish we could have that geriatric Family reunion one day with tea and cookies.
catscradle77 said...
>>I wonder if Susan thinks about the deal she gave up.<<<
Oh I would imagine so. She has NO business feeling any resentment towards Linda (if indeed she does or did) since it was Susan's deal to lose. She's the moron who got up there on the grand jury witness stand and described the murders with glee. And she's the moron who recanted and ran back to Manson's side. She made her own bed. In fact, she made all their beds. And she set the stage for the much more sympathetic (from a prosecution standpoint) Linda to take the deal.
Susan was the true snitch IMHO.
Does anyone know who Gold was? Sandy mentions the colors on her bracelet and when she gets to Gold she says "Gold is for a Family woman" but doesn't mention a name.
another interesting tidbit; when the subject of Manson as Christ is being discussed, there is a long-haired hippie-looking dude being interviewed by reporters in the courthouse who states that he believes Manson is a false prophet sent to deceive people.
I think that guy might actually be Bob Kasabian, Linda's husband who introduced her to Melton and Gypsy.
Was Atkin's deal that the government would not seek the death penalty against her? If so, I think she would have gotten life and may very well still be right where she is even if she had stuck to the deal. Could she have gotten parole?
GLH said...
>>>>Could you imagine the outcome by now had Atkins gotten the deal instead of Linda? I would wager that Kasabian, as well as Clem, would have been paroled by now. Van Houten and Bobby would most likely have been granted parole. It would have put a completely different twist on the convictions, I think.<<<
Interesting idea, G. I don't know trial law, so I wonder if Atkins got the deal could Kasabian's attorney have petitioned for his defendant to be tried separately? The umbrella defense was chosen by the actual defendants was it not? Either way, Charlie, Leslie, and Pat would have hated Susan at the time for testifying, and Linda would most likely not have joined hands with them and sang songs while parading down the hallway nor joined in with the courtroom antics (IMHO), so I agree things would have looked a lot different.
>>>You might as well say "what if they had been in an accident on the way to Cielo....."<<<<
I volunteer to go back in time and slit the tires of Johnny Swartz 1959 Ford. Anyone got a time machine handy?
Clem is already out now, right?
Deb B said...
>>>Was Atkin's deal that the government would not seek the death penalty against her? If so, I think she would have gotten life and may very well still be right where she is even if she had stuck to the deal. Could she have gotten parole?<<<
It seems they left it intentionally vague because they obviously were concerned about her following through.
According to the Bug's book, they agreed to not seek the death penalty against her in either the Hinman, Tate, or Labianca murders.
The legal memorandum goes on to state "The extent to which the District Attorney's Office will assist Defense Counsel in an attempt to seek less than a first degree murder, life sentence, will depend upon the extent to which Susan Atkins continues to cooperate."
It looks like what they did was take the A&E Biography show "The Manson Women: An American Nightmare" and redid the narration for a Dutch audience.
Good find. The A&E Channel sells their original version on their website.
catscradle77 said...
>>Was that Linda K. walking ahead of Leslie during her new trial? Linda with short hair and no pigtails??? (I am sorry Monk)<<<
LOL Cats. Are you referring to the shots of her in the big white shirt? Yes that is Linda walking ahead of Leslie but it was not during the re-trial, it was during the pre-trial arraignment period after they had all been rounded up. Linda is pregnant with Angel in that shot. I doubt Linda and Leslie were ever in the same room outside the actual courtroom during Leslie's retrial.
Leslie looks totally zoned out in that sequence dont ya think?
The Pat, Leslie, Squeaky, and Charlie interviews are from Diane Sawyer's interviews with them that I guess the A&E producers acquired from Sawyer/ABC. You can hear Sawyer asking questions even though they don't show her.
Look at me I'm such a know-it-all. :)
Salem said...
"BUG is quite the amazing act eh? He and Charlie are the same age I think, sure hope ole Charlie outlives that bastard"
Well, you got your wish Freddie Salem !
Heaven said...
"I know mine isn't the popular opinion, but I liked Gorightly's book.. I know it's a lot of books all rolled into one.."
As of 2015, I've found a few Manson books to be like that or full of info culled from other books, like Guinn's one. Even Tex's first one has parts of HS when it comes to the murders. I don't think he honestly remembers the details from his actual memory.
agnostic monk said...
"She has NO business feeling any resentment towards Linda (if indeed she does or did) since it was Susan's deal to lose"
Her final manuscript that was unfinished {The myth of Helter Skelter} found her still resenting Linda, if one reads between the lines.
agnostic monk said...
"And she set the stage for the much more sympathetic (from a prosecution standpoint) Linda to take the deal"
In the first instance Bugliosi hadn't wanted Susan. His initial response to her getting a deal was "We don't give that gal anything !" but he later was forced to concede that without her, they didn't have a case. Her lawyer, Richard Caballero seemed to think it was only a matter of time before she went back to Charlie and Bugliosi says that it was arranged that hers and Manson's arraignments were on different days because he didn't want them to meet ¬> he was afraid he'd persuade her to recant her grand jury testimony.
He didn't think Linda could testify to anything other than Steven Parent's murder but he seemed to have her in the back of his mind if Susan was to recant. It was only when she did recant and he needed an eyewitness {not just to convict Manson, but all of them} that he went for Linda.
Susan for her troubles more or less states that she recanted to protect her son from Charlie's threats while at the same time blames the prosecution for not protecting her and hoping she'd run back to Charlie so they could get Linda to testify as it was clear she "hadn't murdered anyone."
agnostic monk said..
"Susan was the true snitch IMHO"
And who did the prosecution learn Linda hadn't murdered anyone from ? Actually, they learned it from a surprising source......Leslie Van Houten. Before she was ever connected by law enforcement with the LaBianca killings and before they even knew her real name she was interviewed in LA in and around the last week of November '69 by Mike McGann. In that interview, she said three girls and one man were in on Tate and that 'Linda' was the one girl "who didn't murder someone while they was up there", clearly dropping Pat & Susan in it as murderers.
Although Susan had told Virginia Graham & Ronnie Howard {and according to an interview in "Death to pigs", one Nancy Jordon} about the murders, they were jailmates and she wasn't expecting any of them to go and tell the police. She herself was only in jail because Kitty Lutesinger implicated her in the Hinman killing. So the point at which Susan became a snitch was when she was actually told that there was enough evidence to convict her and she decided to go before the grand jury. Leslie, Kitty and Danny DeCarlo had all beaten Susan Atkins to the punch as far as damning information to the police goes.
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