Friday, June 09, 2006

The Yalkowsky Collection- Random Comments #2


I'm not gonna lie to you. I just plowed through three really huge transcripts. They turn out to be the voir dire/ jury selection for the original, pre-appeal Grogan-Davis-Manson Shea case. The attorneys ask a lot of questions about a lot of things to a lot of people, and in the end I don't think it means shit. EVERYONE has heard that Charlie is a bad guy so even when they say, hey we can be impartial, I think they are lying.

So the only comment from all THREE is

- they keep referring to the "murders up in Yuba County". Is this the migrant workers case from back then? Does anyone know?

IN OTHER RANDOMNESS-

Joe, our knowledgeable curmudgeon, has a thread going in the comments....

Re: Hinman's cars at Spahn.
When the sheriffs conducted their "mini" raid of the ranch on July 28, 1969, they recorded that Hinman's cars were there. Of course, he was rotting in his house at that moment. So why the hell didn't Manson immediately panic and assume that the sheriffs would make the connection after discovering the body and come back to the ranch to arrest everybody? Not only didn't the cops -- Grap, etc. --make the connection but Manson proved prescient in his assumption (apparently) that they wouldn't make the connection. BB didn't leave in the Fiat until August 3 or 4th, and the VW bus was sold on the 1st of August. So he took precautions, a little late, to get rid of cars, but still didn't seem too worried about the cops linking him/them to the Hinman murder. Why? What did Manson know that made him so (correctly) fearless?

-------------------------
Col: What you've got to finally accept is that BB is lying when he says Hinman said he was going to the cops. BB is the only one who says this. The girls haven't said it. Davis hasn't said it. They said they were scared Hinman would go to the cops, but they've not said he threatened to. BB concocted the drug deal story in the mid-eighties when he realized that as long as the parole board believed he killed Hinman under Manson's orders he would NEVER get released. His drug burn story was invented solely to separate him from the Manson Family stigma that has prevented him from being released for so long. Just like Davis, Atkins, Leslie, etc., as long as he is linked to Manson he will never get out -- or at least not for a helluva lot more years. And he's smart enough to know that. Both Davis and Atkins have told the board they knew nothing of BB's alleged drug deal. Under specific questioning, Atkins said BB never said anything to Hinman about money owed for bad drugs. We know Atkins has lied in the past, but why would she lie about this? Wouldn't suit any purpose. And BB's version of the Hinman murder has changed how many times now? Three by my count. 1. To the police: Hinman was killed by the Panthers. 2. To the court: Hinman was killed by Manson. 3. To the board: Hinman was killed by him. Of course Hinman would not tell them he was going to the police, and of course if he was a major drug dealer he'd never go to the police. Truth is, he didn't tell them that and he didn't sell drugs. He was killed on Manson's orders because the $20,000 wasn't turned over.

---------------------------
Because he is mitigating his responsibility. He's changing the story to serve his own purposes -- and in the course, painting a false picture of a dead man who can't defend himself as a drug dealer. BB is still selfish, controlling, manipulative and capable of committing vile acts to advance his cause. The evidence is in the lies.

------------------------------

Joe Baby, let me help you out---

A-- Manson didn't know the details of what happened at Hinman. Manson thought Bobby actually had validly signed pink slips. The cops are stupid. All of these are better reasons than manufacturing some sort of conspiracy shit.


B-- YOU are just WRONG. The drug burn is clearly spelled out in the original THE FAMILY that Sanders wrote in 1972. Clearly. So, well, sucks, but you are wrongo.

C-- Bobby is the only one who says HE DID IT. He's not mitigating shit no matter how much unsubstantiated bullshit Joe spews.


Have a nice day.

33 comments:

Joe said...

Col: First off, if you believe Bobby so completely, why do you ask so many questions and point out so many DISCREPANCIES in his story in your Hinman postings, #'s 1-6?! You've said it yourself, dude, you don't believe half of it. If you don't believe some, then why believe the rest??? In the courtroom they call that "selective reasoning."

Now, to your points A-C:

A-- Manson didn't know the details of what happened at Hinman. Manson thought Bobby actually had validly signed pink slips.

SOURCE?

The cops are stupid. All of these are better reasons than manufacturing some sort of conspiracy shit.

UM, VERY ARTICULATE ARGUMENT. SO, WHO'S MANUFACTURING THE 'CONSPIRACY SHIT'? I'M SAYING IT WAS A SIMPLE ROBBERY-MURDER, A LOT LESS COMPLICATED THAN ALL THIS DRUG BACK-AND-FORTH THAT ONLY BB ALLEGEDLY KNEW ABOUT.


B-- YOU are just WRONG. The drug burn is clearly spelled out in the original THE FAMILY that Sanders wrote in 1972. Clearly. So, well, sucks, but you are wrongo.

OH, AND NOW WE'RE TAKING SANDERS' BOOK AS GOSPEL? THAT BOOK IS EVEN MORE OF A FANTASY THAN BUGLIOSI'S.

C-- Bobby is the only one who says HE DID IT. He's not mitigating shit no matter how much unsubstantiated bullshit Joe spews.

Have a nice day.

COL: YOU EVEN KNOW THE DEFINITION OF 'MITIGATION'? AND "UNSUBSTANTIATED BULLSHIT," EH? LETS SEE YOUR SUBSTANTIATION THAT THIS DRUG BURN OCCURRED. WHAT ELSE YA GOT BESIDES THE FEEBLE UN-SOURCED RAMBLING OF SANDERS AND BOBBY'S THRICE-CHANGED STORY WHICH HAS MORE HOLES IN IT THAN ROSEMARY LABIANCA?

C'MON COL. YOU CAN DO BETTER THAN THAT.

ColScott said...

Listen
I do not take anything as gospel.

YOUR CLAIM- BB started making the drug story up in the 80s.

FACT- it is cited in Sanders book in 1972.

Hence- you= wrong.

ColScott said...

Listen
I do not take anything as gospel.

YOUR CLAIM- BB started making the drug story up in the 80s.

FACT- it is cited in Sanders book in 1972.

Hence- you= wrong.

scruffyphx said...

This guy makes Charlie look like a choirboy...
Born same year as Charlie and resides at same address...

http://www.nndb.com
http://www.crimelibrary.com


Juan Vallejo Corona - The Machete Murderer
Juan Corona (born 1934) moved from Mexico to Yuba City, California in the 1950s to work as a produce field-worker.
Juan Corona was a labor contractor who hired migrant workers for produce fields in California. In a murder spree lasting six weeks, he raped and murdered 25 men and buried their machete-hacked bodies in the orchards owned by local farmers.
.........."On May 19, 1971, the corpse of an adult male was found in a shallow grave on a farm. The owner called the police, who dug up the surrounding area in case there were more bodies. Soon enough they found a total of twenty-five corpses, all men and evidently farm laborers. They had all been hacked and slashed to death with a machete.".........
Presently resides in Corcoran State Prison.

Seraphim said...

How would you assess Ed Sanders' character in terms of integrity, credibility and motivation(s), etc. after reviewing the following links?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Ed_Sanders

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Fuck_You:_A_Magazine_of_the_Arts

Joe said...

Col: "YOU CLAIM- BB started making the drug story up in the 80s.
FACT- it is cited in Sanders book in 1972."

Exactly my point. That's where BB got it. Then "adopted" it as his own in the '80's. Ask your good pal Sanders for his sources on the drug burn story.

And you didn't answer any of my questions...beginning with: What about all the discrepancies YOU cite about BB's drug burn yarn in your own Hinman posts #'s 1 - 6?

Hardly serves as a ringing endorsement of BB's "honesty" about what happened.

Salem said...

Manson didn't know the details of what happened at Hinman. Manson thought Bobby actually had validly signed pink slips. The cops are stupid. All of these are better reasons than manufacturing some sort of conspiracy shit.

says The Col

True
CM left after Hinman was killed and came back days later. Infact after CM left Hinmans , he packed some things and left the ranch. He didnt know Hinman was even dead til he got back.
I still say DRUG BRUN at Hinmans just like at Polanski's.

Salem said...

BB lived with Gary for a year and knew what Gary did, BB sold mescaline (spell error) )and seems his deal with the bikers went bad,so he takes his problems to CM.
CM didnt want the bikers on his back (after the deal went sour)so he sent Bobby to get the money..BB knew that Gary had *come* into some money)and the girls went along to party as they had been there before.
When BB could not get the $$$ he calls CM.
After C* cut Gary's ear he left for Big Sur, he didnt come back til Aug 8th, and he was pissed! He was ready to pack up his truck and leave FOR GOOD.
It was Squeaky that begged him to stay, which he did.
I wish CM had left and gone back East. He would not be where he is today if he had booked it back home.

Yepyep said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Joe said...

Salem:
"CM left after Hinman was killed and came back days later. In fact after CM left Hinmans, he packed some things and left the ranch. He didnt know Hinman was even dead til he got back.
I still say DRUG BURN at Hinmans just like at Polanski's."

Salem also says:
"After C* cut Gary's ear he left for Big Sur, he didnt come back til Aug 8th, and he was pissed! He was ready to pack up his truck and leave FOR GOOD.
It was Squeaky that begged him to stay, which he did. I wish CM had left and gone back East. He would not be where he is today if he had booked it back home."


Manson didn’t order the murder?! Not according to the well from which you draw your tepid water:

Ed Sanders on Manson ordering the Hinman murder [page 243, 1971 edition]:

"On Thursday, July 24, Manson sent Ella Bailey aka Ella Sinder over to Hinman’s house to get money and THEN TO KILL HIM."
[248] Sometime late Saturday or early Sunday they [BB, Sadie, Mary] called the Spahn Ranch and, according to Danny DeCarlo, Manson TOLD THEM TO KILL MANSON: ‘He knows too much.’


Manson didn't "know" about Hinman's death until "after" he returned from Big Sur? Not according to Sando:

[249] “That night [July 27, 1969]the Family got together for a songfest and tape-recorded a recreation of the murder of Gary Hinman in musical form…"

And Salem, later that night, as July 27 turned into the 28th, as you no doubt recall, LASO and CHP officers raided the ranch, FIR-ing Manson and BB -- and, according to both Sanders AND the LASO reports of the raid, it was Manson who requested accompanying the officers on their post-midnight tour of the ranch, afterwhich -- Swartz was arrested, FIR cards were filled out on BB and Manson, among others, and the officers recorded the presence of Hinman's TWO cars at the Ranch. Manson did not -- did NOT -- leave the ranch before learning that Hinman was dead --according to Sanders AND the FIR reports which I've seen.


Also, more Sanders on Manson's involvement with Hinman murder:
[page 256] "On August 1, Charlie was talking about taking a trip up north…Beausoleil testified at his trial that he was called into a trailer where he had a conversation with Bruce Davis and Manson. According to Beausoleil, Charlie told Bruce he should be willing to do what ‘he’ [BB] did at Gary’s…"

And Col., since you didn't do it (for now-apparent reasons), I looked up Sander's "source" for his info on this notorious Hinman drug burn motive. Well, just as I suspected, it's pretty damn lame: ONE un-named married couple in Topanga (later, he says hubby's name was "Eric") and Manson's comments to some "visitors" in jail. Geez. That's the basis for your entire theory of the Hinman murder?! C'mon.
You should be ashamed of yourself.


Family source on “drug burn” [page 242, 1971 edition:

Hinman had a small set up at his house where he made quanaties of sythentic mescaline. A young married couple who lived with Gary right up to several days before his death were partners with him in manufacturing the mescaline. ‘We were making mescaline…Manson has claimed to jail visitors that Hinman made drugs and that certain individuals had threatened Hinman as a result of bad dope…and Hinman came to him seeking protection…"

Yepyep said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Salem said...

Sometime late Saturday or early Sunday they [BB, Sadie, Mary] called the Spahn Ranch and, according to Danny DeCarlo, Manson TOLD THEM TO KILL MANSON: ‘He knows too much.’

YA
like Danny didnt cut some deals with THE BUG!

Joe said...

Yep: "Both Charlie and Bobby knew Hinman, so if Hinman didn't have the $20,000 (and therefore had to be killed), wouldn't Charlie and Bobby have known he didn't have that much money?"

JOE: THEY'D HEARD HE'D GOTTEN AN INHERITANCE.

Salem: "Sometime late Saturday or early Sunday they [BB, Sadie, Mary] called the Spahn Ranch and, according to Danny DeCarlo, Manson TOLD THEM TO KILL MANSON: ‘He knows too much.’
YA
like Danny didnt cut some deals with THE BUG!"

JOE: LIKE I DIDN'T KNOW THAT WAS COMIN.' AND REMEMBER, IT'S FROM SANDERS, YOUR SOURCE FOR "THE DRUG BURN."

AND WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THE EVIDENCE I LAID OUT FOR YOU? YOU GONNA BE JUST LIKE THE COL. AND IGNORE IT?

Salem said...

AND WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THE EVIDENCE I LAID OUT FOR YOU? YOU GONNA BE JUST LIKE THE COL. AND IGNORE IT?

3:41 PM

guess so.

chasingbunnies said...

Who died and left Gary Hinman a 20 thousand dollar inheritance? I was never clear about the Hinman- inheritance story. Why kill Hinman? You won't get any money from a dead man. Makes little sense to me.


[FOX news just compared the warfare tactics used by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi against the Shiites, and Sunni's (sp) to Charlie Manson's so called Helter Skelter style of warfare. Just thought that was odd since that wasn't Manson's theory it was Bugliosi's wasn't it?]

ColScott said...

And Col., since you didn't do it (for now-apparent reasons), I looked up Sander's "source" for his info on this notorious Hinman drug burn motive. Well, just as I suspected, it's pretty damn lame: ONE un-named married couple in Topanga (later, he says hubby's name was "Eric") and Manson's comments to some "visitors" in jail. Geez. That's the basis for your entire theory of the Hinman murder?! C'mon.
You should be ashamed of yourself.


Joey
If you read this blog you know I mistrust Sanders.
But stop behaving like a sixth grade debate student.
YOU CLAIMED THAT BB MADE UP THE DRUG BURN THEORY IN THE 80S.
I said that was UNTRUE.
I could have pointed to many sources, including the trials. But the FACT that it was mentioned (true or not) in Sanders in 72 means, INARGUABLY, that BB did NOT make this shit up in the 80s.

Get it?

Joe said...

Col: "YOU CLAIMED THAT BB MADE UP THE DRUG BURN THEORY IN THE 80S.
I said that was UNTRUE.
I could have pointed to many sources, including the trials. But the FACT that it was mentioned (true or not) in Sanders in 72 means, INARGUABLY, that BB did NOT make this shit up in the 80s.

Get it?"

Pardon me. I should have said "borrowed" the drug burn story from Sanders in the eighties when he realized it suited his purpose of disassociating himself from the Manson Family. And when was this so called "drug burn" mentioned at any of the trials?

And as for Salem:

"Joe: AND WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THE EVIDENCE I LAID OUT FOR YOU? YOU GONNA BE JUST LIKE THE COL. AND IGNORE IT?

3:41 PM

Salem: guess so."

Wow. I'd be too embarrassed to ever post on this site again if I were you.

Salem said...

It doesnt matter what I say JOE, ya are gonna always jump on me.
Sanders book was good, but not the best. oeoeoeowoeeee

Salem said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Salem said...

what I read in a letter was.
*I never sent anyone to do KILL anyone. I Have NEVER killed anyone.* When all that shit started coming down, I wanted to GIT in my truck take my guitar with a hole in it and book back East.
easy manson

Salem said...

At one of his trials, Beausoleil stated that he hadn't killed Hinman, Manson had. But in the OUI interview he said Manson wasn't even there. "You see the Sheriff's Homicide Department wanted to get Manson involved in my case, which was very difficult because Manson was not involved." Beausoleil continued and said that Hinman was killed because "he told me that he was going to the police (and tell them) that I had come and assaulted him to get money from him. I had my back against the wall."

Joe said...

Salem: "At one of his trials, Beausoleil stated that he hadn't killed Hinman, Manson had. But in the OUI interview he said Manson wasn't even there. "You see the Sheriff's Homicide Department wanted to get Manson involved in my case, which was very difficult because Manson was not involved." Beausoleil continued and said that Hinman was killed because "he told me that he was going to the police (and tell them) that I had come and assaulted him to get money from him. I had my back against the wall."

All the more reason not to believe a word he says. He lost his chance at being credible ages ago.

Joe said...

Salem,

Thanks for directing me to the Oui interview. I never saw it before. Hmmm, wonder why Bobbby doesn't have it posted on his webpage. Perhaps, oh, maybe because it shows the little problem he has with the truth.

To Oui in 1981:
AB. Didn't Charles Manson show up at some point?

BB: No, no, no. You see the Sheriff's Homicide Department wanted to get Manson involved in my case, which was very difficult because Manson was not involved
AB: Both prosecutor/author VB and Ed Sanders (in Family) maintained the Charlie Manson came to Hinman's during the night and slashed Hinman's ear with his knife. Now you say that you alone cut his face and killed him?
BB: Yeah, yeah. That was the prosecution's theory because they wanted to get Manson into the act.

BB in Seconds Interview, 1998-9
BB:...Now suddenly there was someone at the door, and Gary answered it. It turned out to be Manson, with Bruce Davis standing behind him. Now following my previous line of conjecture, I would assume that Manson believed that Gary was still in control of the situation, because Gary answered the door. Manson didn't give him a chance to say anything more than "Hi, Charlie" before he struck Gary across the face with a sword.
Q.: Manson had brought a sword with him?
BB: Yes, it was a little, short sword that one of the Straight Satans had given to him. It was something he affected at that time, and he'd brought it with him and slashed Gary across the face with it. He walked in and kind of blustered around for a few minutes. I assume he realized his mistake fairly shortly thereafter.
Q. Where were you, when this transpired?
BB: I was standing right there. I was in the living room, a few feet from the front door. I was in shock. Gary was in shock. It was so uncalled for . . . I didn't know where it was coming from, and thought, what is this about?
Q. You had the situation resolved and then it suddenly erupts in a whole other direction.
BB: Yes, and now I've got a situation where Gary had a severe slash across his face and a kind of nick where the sword had cut his ear. I heard Manson say something to me like, "That's how you be a man." He called this showing me "how to be a man." Then he and Bruce left....


Poor little Bobby, always a victim of other people's bad behavior.

And tell me again -- why does this guy have any credibility?

Salem said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Salem said...

Salem said...
joe says
All the more reason not to believe a word he says. He lost his chance at being credible ages ago.

3:48 PM
well Joe, everyone thats behind bars have changed their story at least 2 times since 1969.
Except CM*.
Some went to God ..Some blame God..some blame others, some take all the blame.
So .. who hasnt NOT changed the events of that summer?

4:22 PM

chasingbunnies said...

Bobby Beausoleil on Ed Sanders Book


Q: Remember the book by Ed Sanders? He wrote a book called "The
Family."

A: Oh yes. Ed wrote that book for money and it has nothing to do
with truth or the reality of what happened. He knows what would
sell. He knows that certain subjects; sex, violence, occultism,
etc. sell. And he lied. I'd say that maybe one percent of that
book has truth in it. The other 99 percent is lies.

Salem said...

hey CB:)

Sandy says the same thing...
Have ya ever read The Manson Files?
Peace

chasingbunnies said...

Salem said...
hey CB:)

Sandy says the same thing...
Have ya ever read The Manson Files?
Peace

9:06 PM

--------
Hey Salem!
No, I haven't read Sanders book but I did a little research on Ed Sanders. His experiences in New York's Greenwich Village as a beat in the early sixties, and the band he formed called "The Fugs" His book store, and some of his escapades. Interesting guy. You can read about him at the Official Fugs Website. www.thefugs.com

chasingbunnies said...

Charles Manson admitted on national televison in the Tom Snyder interview that yes he did cut off Hinmans ear.

TS: Did you kill Shorty Shea?
CM: HELL NO!
TS: Did you cut off Gary Hinmans ear?
CM: HELL.....yes.

1:13 PM

Salem said...

((((((((((((CB)))))))))
and we know Charlie dont lie:)
Peace

Sandy Bad said...

fuck bobby (yes i would love too!!)
what else is in that box?????? i wanna come over and help go thru it!!!!!!

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