Why the LaBiancas? That's this week's question.
Unlike the previous night, Charlie goes with everyone. Enters the house. Talks to and meets the victims. Ties them up/
Unlike the previous night, the group drive around town seemingly not having a victim in mind.
If you believe Kasabian, Charlie almost shoots several people.
THEN the group change direction (perhaps they did have a goal in mind) and they end up at the house NEXT DOOR to Harold True, where some of them had partied before.
I've been to both houses. They are pretty random and ordinary, not all that special.
I've heard a theory that Charlie was denied at True's like he had been at Melcher's and was sending a message. Don't make sense.
We've all heard that the girls had gone on garbage runs at the Gateway Market owned by Leno.
We've all heard the stories of black books and the mob. Contract killings.
But ask yourself this. Charlie WALKED into their house, like Tex walked into Voytek's abode.
I think Charlie knew Leno. He knew Tex would kill him. He wanted Tex to think it was random, hence the driving.
But I wish I knew HOW he knew Leno.
357 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 357 of 357Savage,
There are some parole hearings where she admits she wrote things in blood. Patricia didn't use a towel, she used a crumpled up piece of paper.
But then there are the parole hearings of Tex and Patricia. Patricia claims she only wrote "Healter Skelter" and Leslie and Tex wrote the other stuff.
Tex claims he didn't write anything, it was Leslie and Patricia who wrote everything.
I supposed it's just a matter of which one you chose to believe. But I tend to believe that she wrote things in blood.. Why not? She participated in everything else.
You can't say Leslie didn't do it where there are times she says she did. She also admits to wearing Rosemary's clothes and burning them later at the ranch.
It's highly debateable that Rosemary was dead when Leslie got to her. Even Leslie says now that she doesn't know. So if Leslie doesn't know, and the police report says Rosemary crawled two feet with a severed spine, how it you say she was dead?
No one will ever know if Rosemary was dead when Leslie started in on her, even the coroner couldn't say she was dead...
Leslie's supporters will be arguing this until the end of time. But unless someone stopped to take Rosemary's pulse, no one will ever know the truth...
=)
I think it should be mentioned that Leslie herself said at her 2004 parole hearing that Patricia AND HER, were not able to kill Rosemary. So SHE went and got Tex...
It wasn't that Patricia couldn't kill Rosemary, is was that they both couldn't do it... Meaning, Leslie was right there, helping out... Rosemary was just too much to handle.
According to one of Leslie's early parole hearings, Patricia only stabbed Rosemary once, in the collarbone, bending her knife. cause she was fighting so hard. Leslie had a lot of trouble holding her down.. One stab wound to the collarbone wouldn't have been fatal...
So, Patricia didn't "mutilate" her, least not before Tex entered the room. Leslie says that Patricia didn't touch her again until Tex got there because Rosemary was flying all around room with the pillowcase and lamp over her head.
At her 1993 parole hearing, Leslie says when she re-entered the bedroom with Tex, Rosemary alive, on the bed.
Here are her exact words in that parole hearing about whether or not Rosemary was alive..
"When I went back in the bedroom,
she was laying on the floor and I assumed she was dead,
but I did not know for sure that she was."
So if Leslie didn't know if she was dead, and Tex didn't know if she wad dead, and Patricia didn't know she was dead, and they were all there, how is it you know she was dead?
So the parole board asks her again..
"PRESIDING COMMISSIONER BENTLEY: And then you
stab her repeatedly.
INMATE VAN HOUTEN: In the back.
PRESIDING COMMISSIONER BENTLEY: Okay. And --
and not, to this date, knowing whether she was alive or
dead at that point?
INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I assumed she was, but I didn't know for sure.
And again, she says she wasn't sure.
In 1993 there is no discussion what so ever about anyone writing anything in blood.
See, the parole hearing are my favorite reading material. Because the killers are completely away from Manson, no longer controlled by him or the drugs and they're now only concerned about their futures.. So, you really get the most truthful accounts from them...
Except Manson's of course. I can't even start to read his, he babbles and rambles...
It's interesting to note that in all the parole hearings, every one if them, Leslie suffers from "I can't remember"...
But her memory becomes restored quickly when the board reminds her of what she told them the year before. Usually after they remind her, she can remember the events much more clearly...
Savage,
Women can be very cruel to each other when it comes to tearing down another woman. I don't believe that men are so insensitive as to make personal comments about other men but women seem to have no conscience when it comes to that kind of thing.
Savage give us some crdit here. We are not in Jr High.Going around un fairly picking on Susan.
She is whinning about No Haircolor..That is a joke ..she is in prison for 9 Murders.
I glad you think she is Sexy Susan ..I guess you can get the thought of her stabbing a pregnant woman out of your head . or in court looking at a picture of Steven Parent ..saying that ..Yes that is the It I seen .
What case are you following ? .. Not the case one I am ..or you would not act like Susan .is some kind of good person.
Go back on the 22 years she bragged to All she did it. Skip telling me she just said that.
Savage,
You know a lot about Writs in Calif..when you are from New York.
Arnold will never let Susan out ..writs or not.
When she files that Whit. I will start the biggest letter writing campaign ..you ever saw . Think people will not write ..look at this blog..how many here support Susan.
Tell Susan when you visit this weekend ..she needs to work on a new story.
They allow inmates to color their hair?
Is this done in their cell or is it done in a salon somewhere?
Wouldn't the stuff that comes in those hair color boxes be considered contraband?
The chemicals used to color hair, if they get into the eyes, can burn them very badly..
Couldn't that be used as some type of weapon?
Since it's a prison filled with females, why would Susan care if her hair is gray or not?
Seems odd to worry about vanity.
heaven,
It's interesting to note that in all the parole hearings, every one if them, Leslie suffers from "I can't remember"...
I know I love the I can not remember. I have heard Lesile and Patricia practice for the hearings together.
I wonder if that is part of the plan..I can not remember.
How you forget a murder.. you took part in is something I do not understnd.
I have to give Patricia credit, she's the only one who seems to remember the events.. She's the only one who doesn't lay all the blame on Manson, she's never claimed that she's a Christian and she's never written a book...
In the parole hearing I've read about her, she's the only one with a clear memory of the events. She accepts her punishment, without stupid lawsuits and filing writs.
Leslie's attorney told the parole board in 1993, that Patricia will probably serve 70 years before she ever gets out.
I think Pat has real honest to goodness remorse. I think she felt terrible even before she went to prison.
But, because I say this does not mean I feel she should be released.
I can feel bad for her and know that she's right where she should be...
sandra and squeaky were recruiting dr george peters and his girls in naturalism to join them and make the family strong again durning the trial in 70 so the family was not brakeing up
Savage,
The prisons may be getting full, but there are still options.
They'll probably just start bussing them to other states...
Look at Pamela Smart's case, her crime was committed in New Hampshire and she's in prison in New York... The boys involved are in jail in Maine.
Letters are very much read, I don't know how well they're considered.
In one of Susan's recent hearings she didn't like the fact that the board had letter opposing her release and the board told her tough...
She also wanted the letters read out loud, and the board refused...
Politicians want to keep their paychecks coming... So writing letters, especially during voting time, is a smart thing to do...
"I can assure you that Susan will be free and you guys and gals are just going to have to be satisfied with the fact that you've had it your way for this long ... but like the great Bob Dylan once said, "The times, they are a changin"
You're positive of this? I mean absolutely positive that in 2009, Susan will be granted parole?
Even after Leslie's writ was denied and all 8 of Tookie Williams?
You're without a doubt positive Susan will walk in 09?
Ever been to Vagas?
Can we all point and laugh if she doesn't?
Savage,
I can assure you that Susan will be free and you guys and gals are just going to have to be satisfied with the fact that you've had it your way for this long ... but like the great Bob Dylan once said, "The times, they are a changin"
Savage how have I had it my way. Susan being in prison.. Susan got in prison on her own. No one else but her self.
You can think what you want ..but I know letters do help.I also know Susan hates the letters wrote againist her.
What you think is so special about a 9 time murderer ..I will never understand.
Susan is, still to this day, quite an attractive woman. She's not 20 anymore but she's still quite a woman in her own right. You can make jokes about the grey but, to be honest with you, she looks great; especially after all she's been through.
OMG
ya cease to amaze me. susan pretty today? LMAO
Amen Salem ..Talk about having a evil look old sadie does have it.
Salem,
Can we all point and laugh if she doesn't?
hey
Lets throw a party:)
Heaven , you are in Maine, wanna fly South for a HOE DOWN:)
oh btw
Linda K's ex leaves there, Bob Kasabian.. Ever ran across him?
Yes I would love to have a party count me in
We can take pictures of ours selfs coloring our hair and send to Savage to give to Susan.
Salem said...
But then there are the parole hearings of Tex and Patricia. Patricia claims she only wrote "Healter Skelter" and Leslie and Tex wrote the other stuff.
seems Pat could have spelled Helter
..was it spelled HEALTER for a reason?
I think she just couldn't spell. At the trial, she had been doodling "Healter Skelter" on a scrap of paper. Bugliosi wanted to use it as proof that it was she who wrote it in the LaBianca refrig...
Salem ,
Is that on tonight ?
Salem said...
Hi Ho Hi Ho Back To Prison She Goes...
LOL Can i buy a vowel E
Hi HOE Sadie away!!!
lol j/k
10:06 AM
Now that is funny!!!
LOL
Yup, I'm in Maine.. I don't think I've ever seen Mr Kasabian lol
Susan is about as pretty as Sandra Bernhardt...
The only thing I can find pretty about her is it's pretty amazing she lied for 22 years and expects parole...
But hey, that's just me..
I have no doubts that Susan will be released someday, but I suspect she'll be in a body bag....
=)
Savage,
If you think Susan is pretty, that is totally your business. I don't know any guys who think Sandra Bernhardt is "sexy"..
There is a difference between sexy and pretty.. Susan and Sandra (Bernhardt) are neither...
How can you see anything pretty in this?
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/manson/atkins1.jpg
But hey if you do, that's your business...
Are you trying to insinuate that you're Susan's husband?
If you really did kiss her, I hope you boiled your lips...
=)
Ok, cool...
Have you ever bothered to ask Susan why it took her 22 years to remember that she never killed anyone?
I guess that's my biggest problem with Susan..
She was away from Manson, away from the drugs and control, and had already been in jail 22 years. So she was no longer the scared little waif who had to "act tough"..
Why lie for so long?
We're only vicious because we don't worship Susan..
So, why you kissing married women? Hmmmmm? lol
Does her husband know that she's slipping the tongue to visitors LOL
Susan will always be Sadie Mae Glutz to me.. Nothing will ever convince me that she's changed. The only thing changed about her, is her story...
=)
"I've never talked to Susan about her commitment crimes and out of respect to James"
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't James her lawyer? Isn't he aware of her crimes or has somehow missed that?
You don't discuss the crimes out of respect for her husband, but you'll kiss her..
Ok, that makes sense LOL
Savage dear,
I don't think any of us ladies here have any lesbian fantasies about Susan.. Even if I did, that green vaginal ooze would be a major turn off lol
Even if it were gone... YUCK! would be all I could think of.. *shiver*..
I guess I always thought the prison had certain rules about physical contact with visitors. But I can see Susan getting excited, she's probably exhausted all her fingers by now lol
Alrighty...
=)
Like I said...
Alrighty...
Here's a thought, if Susan runs out of hair color, how come you don't bring her some.. Least the whole state of California won't be paying for it....
=)
Savage, Audio Magic ... lol, that was cold. Using Susan's picture to support a rather unflattering comment is a very unsportsmanlike thing to do. It's not something i would do.
What is to you what picture she posts look at your picture. Do we comment on it
Savage,
Susan deserves evrything we say bout her and more ..she enjoyed taunting Sharon Tate..now I enjoy taunting her .
If you kiss her ..like heaven says boil your lips LOL
Tell me what is it like kissing a women who is a 9 times murderer?
Susan kisses nice..thanks now I will have nightmares tonight LOL
Savage Your in Love with Susan..good for you ..the thought makes me throw up.
Savage,
How you feel about Susan is totally your business..
Just please don't expect us all to share your opinion..
I feel sorry for Patricia and believe she's changes, but I don't think she should be released, ever...
=)
"Lol, that's crazy. How can i be in love with Susan when she's already married ?"
Well, why you kissing her if she's married? LOL
Hmmmm?
=)
Savage,
I can assure you that Susan will be free and you guys and gals are just going to have to be satisfied with the fact that you've had it your way for this long ... but like the great Bob Dylan once said, "The times, they are a changin"
Have had it our way??? My head is spinning. Our way, those murders would never have happened. Stop forgeting the reason for the season. SHE PARTICIPATED IN KILLING HUMAN BEINGS!!! It is black and white.
Savage,
What married got to do with being in love with her.
She is not really married ..it not a real marriage.
You think Whitehouse is true blue ..come on
savage, I know it was the biggest day of you life and all..but getting the tongue from Susan is not something I would be proud of.
Savage,
60skid said:
>You think Whitehouse is true blue ..come on <
I can't comment on that because that goes into something that's personal between James and Susan.
That is just it nothing goes on between the 2 of them ..maybe a kiss but thats it
Savage ,You're right. Life prisoners no longer have access to the apartments in back of the institution for family visits. I think married couples should have that ability because denying someone a basic human need is a violation of one's human rights.
Doris Tate put a stop to that ..thank god
Ummmm, I'm a man and I don't find Susan attractive. Just for the record.
well even now 30 some years later she is still sexy sadie mae glutz
the sexyest woman alive on the planet today
whoooooo!!!!!!!!!1
60skid
I'm laughing my ass off at your posts lol
Savage,
You should have know that you were opening up an can of worms by telling us you kissed Susan LOL
Dr Dodopariti,
What do you think of Sandra Bernhardt? lol
Savage,
I never said Susan was a whore or any of the other terms used. I said I don't think she's pretty, and I don't have to think she's pretty.. It's an opinion and you have yours...
As for the YUCK comment, that was in referance to the disgusting green ooze that was coming out of her crotch... May be gone, but YUCK to the mere thought... and if you don't find that disgusting, well different stokes I suppose...
As for the coffee, I'm delighted to know that Susan has delicious coffee to enjoy. I'm sure her victims would have enoyed a cup too, had they been allowed to live...
You know what I have trouble getting past?
"Look bitch, I don't care about you. I don't care if you're going to have a baby. You're going to die and I don't feel a thing about it"
Well, now a lot of people don't care a thing about Susan. I'm one of them. I hope she dies in prison, cause I won't feel a thing about it.
Savage,
Your last post was the worse case of hypocrisy I have ever read.
Linda was a snitch? What was Susan doing with Ronnie Howard and Virginia Graham? Recruiting?
Drugs use? Susan never used drugs right?
So, it's ok for you to dislike Linda, but it's not ok for us to dislike Susan.
I guarantee you that more of society hates Susan then they do Linda...
Wanna know why people spit on Linda? It's not cause she was a "snitch", it was because they thought she was one of the killers.
I'm shocked by your hypocrisy
Monk,
I couldn't agree with you more. Obviously Savage cares nothing about the victims and supports the killers..
That's just sad.
Well at least now we know.
What a hypocrite!
It's obviously why he views Linda as a snitch, she caused his beloved Susan to be locked up..
Susan though, she didn't snitch on anyone. She didn't tell anyone who'd listen about the murders and who did the killing.
Susan had a hand in her own incarceration, did she really think she could blab all the juicy details and no one was going to talk?
There was a $25,000 reward for pete's sake!
Linda is 10 times the human being Susan is. Linda may not be an angel but at least she's not a murderer.
Monk,
You got it, right on the head... Susan is the entire reason that the police "broke" the case.
Even Manson was pissed and called her a snitch. Hell, his opinions still isn't very high of her today. Leslie and Pat have nothing to do with her.
Rich,
I don't know Savage, so you probably know him way better than I do.. That's why I used the word "possibly" cause I never like to make accusations...
I can't argue with you about everything else, because you're absolutely right...
Especially this..
"This whole thing has become bigger than the events themselves in a way."
That is so true it's almost scary.
I'll be very anxious to read Col Scotts book!
=)
Salem,
I wonder how Pat and Leslie act or respond when they see Susan. They must run into each other...
Here's an article about Linda being spit on...
"Linda Kasabian, 54, is the mother of four children. Unfortunately, her life has not gone that well. Divorced from Robert Kasabian, she suffers from health problems, and has been arrested for possession of drugs. She lives in Washington state. Although she's not one of the murderers, Kasabian has often been confused with Krenwinkle. "She has had to leave town a couple of times. People have spit on her," says prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi. "She and her children have had people cursing at them. I don't know if she has gotten any death threats. But they thought she was a member of the murder team. It has all had a devastating effect on her psyche. She witnessed that first night of those horrible murders — only the kind of things you see in horror movies. Then, she has suffered because a great number of people think she was involved, and have made life miserable for her"
http://www.charliemanson.com/news-archive/news-2004-05-00.htm
And here is a picture of Susan with Manson adding his remarks. It's always difficult to read his handwriting, but you get the jist of it...
http://www.charliemanson.com/collections/letter-05.jpg
"oh hi Pat, oh hey there Les, I like what you're doing with you're hair. Oh there's Susan. look busy!"
OMG that is HYSTERICAL!!!
=)
I just checked and the show on MSNBC tonight is about Corcoran prison...
I've set it to record...
Thanks Salem!
=)
I'm on the East coast so it's 10PM my time
Sounds like it's going to be pretty interesting
Linda does have a drug problem, or at least she did...
I'm sure the things she saw her "friends" do right before her eyes, screwed her up pretty badly.
Some men come home from wars and use drugs.. They're in shock. Seeing death and slaughter right before your eyes has got to seriously mess you up...
I admire Linda for having the courage to come forward and take a stand against these people. It took a lot of balls.. Balls Susan didn't have cause she backed out...
Susan, Leslie and Patricia all used to walk in and out of court holding hands and singing. I wonder when they really began to hate Susan....
It's ok Savage, I believe you.. If Rich says you're honest, I believe ya...
Bret as in the Bret that lives in Iceland?
=)
Bret is very cool... He's been in KTS for a while now and I like him very much..
I checked out your pictures... Are you not allowed to take pictures with Susan?
=)
savage national socialist said...
I was lucky to get those pictures that I took at CIW on the outside because they don't allow camera's of any kind on the premises.
Ok, gotcha...
Sounds like you have to jump through a few hoops huh?
=)
Do you have any pictures of you and Susan?
=)
Oh ok, I gotcha....
=)
Brets a great guy.. Very knowledgeable on the case for living in Iceland...
He's got lots of cool related stuff too...
=)
m anson will be on tv in a hour on msnbc return to corcorn
Savage,
Linda was snitch ... plain and simple. She sold out other people to save her own posterior. She was just as dirty as any of the others and was not the innocent little farm girl that Vincent Bugliosi painted her out to be. She's had a history of drug abuse, which i believe is still present to this day.
I never met Linda personally but i've heard that those people that have openly spit on her. There was an article somewhere about her up in Oregon that said that people spit at her and i found that quite amusing.
She's very lucky that she didn't end up like Shorty Shea. She's very fortunate that Sandy or Squeaky didn't take care of business.
Susan and Linda both snitched ..Do you really think Linda would have told.if she did not want a deal..with the bug.
Savage you need to remember you girlfriend ..was the first to tell.
LAPD would have never tied The family to the murders if not for Susan.
You enjoy Linda spit on ..but not Susan ..was is the different between the two of them?
Only thing to me is a least Linda did not stab and taunt a pregnant women.
savage,
Susan is not my girlfriend. She's very happily married and i consider her to be a friend of mine.
Hey they say her and her husband are breaking up.
I see a opening for you .. your dream girl. I will be watching MCNBC and see you getting married to Susan .
I just want to see your picture with Susan ..I will not say nothing nasty.
I will even show you my picture with Tim McGraw LOL
Savage,
I have a few questions for you, you don't have to answer if you don't want to. I'm really just curious.
Before I ask, I want you to know that I'm not mocking you or anything like that, I'm asking serious questions...
Do you have a some type of attraction to women who've committed murder? Is it a romantic interest or just a curious thing?
Do you have any intention of visiting Patricia?
In know there are a lot of women out there who are attracted to murderers... So I wondered if the same was true for you..
If so, what is the attraction? I could never understand the women who married Tex Watson, Eric Or Lyle Menendez, Richard Ramirez..
Are you attracted to these women, maybe looking for a relationship or is it just a curious thing for what they did...
Next question,
Why don't you discuss the crimes? If it weren't for the crimes, Susan and Leslie wouldn't be there....
If I could sit down with any of the killers, it would be Patricia, and I would ask her questions about her crimes...
I don't see how it can even be avoided..
=)
Thank you Savage....
You'll have to understand my position on Susan's abused childhood. I suffered some of the exact same things she did, and I would never harm anyone...
So, in my opinion, I don't think it was as much her tragic childhood as it was that she wanted to please Manson...
Either way, She'll never be able to undo the terrible things she has done. She has to live with her conscience.. I sure wouldn't want to live with this on my head.
Correct me if I'm wrong here but didn't the family have a motto or a belief that the past no longer existed? They were to rid themselves of all their old egos?
If Susan was as "controlled" by Manson as she says, then her past had absolutely nothing to do with the murders or her actions. Her past no longer existed.
She was no longer Susan Atkins, she was Sadie Mae Glutz. No old egos..
So to use her childhood as a crutch later is, to me, contradictive to what she claims to have believed to fully in...
Savage,
Believe it or not, I actually agree with your last statement.
Manson did hold the key to a lot of what happened. He used them for everything he could get.
You have the right to feel whatever you wish for Susan, that is your right. I feel bad for Patricia...
But in Susan's case, Manson can't be to blame for all of it.. She was a criminal and lived a shady lifestyle before she even met Manson. She just wasn't a murderer yet....
Who knows where she would have ended up had she never met Charles Manson....
Savage,
And the saddest part of all is that someone who really had nothing to do with any of the goings on in terms of the drugs and the shady side of life and who was so looking forward to bringing a new life into this world was so needlessly caught up in something so tragic .... and that was Sharon Tate
What about Steven Parent ..what did he have to do with it?
What about RoseMary La Bianca ?
Some times its almost like you hate the victims..like you feel they are the reason the Susan & Leslie are in prison.
If I feel for any of the girls ..It is Patricia .
Why is it .you do not feel sorry for her ?
Savage,
I do not dislike Leslie as much as Susan.
But Leslie did not have to end the way she did.
Leslie was a pretty & smart girl.
But I have read she says she was upset ..that she did not get to go with the others at the Tates.
Also that marriage ..did not help her case.
But I am sorry..sooner are later.. all of them need to take some of the blame their selfs.
Also she keeps saying Rosemary was already dead ..when she stabbed her. No one now for sure..if she was or was not.
Salem,
Did you see the art that some of the inmates had drawn?
I know these are hardened criminals but DAMN, can some of them draw. I was amazed by their talent..
That scorpion Manson made was pretty cool. I can't imagine how much time he put into it. Good things he has a lot on his hands...
oops, that was supposed to read good thing (not things) lol...
=)
Is that what that red thing was? A harp?
I couldn't figure out what it was lol
Yeah, the dreamcatcher was really cool too.
=)
Savage must be very lonely in his life. He seems like a very intelligent person, but I detect a hint of loneliness.
I can see reading the books and other things about the case and even visiting the places these people were. But when someone kisses one of the murderers then implies we ladies have some sort of lesbian fantasy, something ain't right...
It was something about how you went on about kissing a sick, and obviously mentally disturbed woman...
The way you go on and on about how wonderful Susan is, how beautiful she is.. There just seems like there is something missing from your life...
Savage said
But Hey, Susan kisses nice for all you girls that have inquiring minds :-) Don't understimate her womanhood :-)
Why would we girls care about Susan's womanhood?
You didn't have to use the word "lesbian". The implication was clear.
The fact that Susan passed VD around the ranch like a football isn't exactly a secret. We can discuss her killing a pregnant woman but we can't discuss that she was a walking case of gonorrhea?
She reminds me of an old doorknob, everyone took a turn. (and has the VD scars to prove it)..
Didn't she have to have a hysterectomy because of all the scarring from VD?
Why do you care how others think of her? If you think she's beautiful, why do you care that other's don't?
It seems like such a minor thing...
I think Tom Cruise is nasty, other women disagree. Who cares?
Can't we move on from Susan?
Yes 4Sharon she did...
It wasn't an uncommon thing to have in the 60's. But Susan seemed to keep getting it and spreading it to the rest of the family...
Linda would have had it too. I don't recall Voyteck's autopsy stating he had VD, in any form...
If he'd been having sex with her even a couple days before his death, VD would show up in his bloodstream...
The 60's were as loaded with VD as they were with drugs.. It happened..
The clinics were more plentiful than Starbucks lol
If we're going to discuss Susan, we might as well discuss the bad with the good.
"Leslie is also very attractive but again, I can say that because i've seen her and i'm speaking from a man's point of view."
Leslie was, at one time, one of the prettiest girls in the family. But time has caught up with her. It's not a put down, it catches up with all of us...
Personality can go a long way after physical beauty has faded. I find Leslie to be far better looking than Susan. Leslie doesn't seem nearly as disturbed as Susan.
Savage,
Would you agree that these people deserved to be punished for their actions?
"I didn't see any signs of anyone being disturbed, but spending your life in a very small restrictive living environment will take its toll on you. You're also surrounded by people who aren't as nice as the people that might live nextdoor to you and I. It's a very hard world to live in if you can call that living."
That's why prison is supposed to be a deterrent for crime.
I didn't put Susan there, she did.
I'm sorry Susan's life is hard. But I'm also sorry that a pregnant woman (and 6 others) lost their lives. Susan is being punished, not rewarded.
Savage,
Linda took the deal that was offered to her. Would you have said "I'll testify against everyone, but I still wanna go to jail?"
Linda risked her life to put these people away. She also risked the lives of her family..
It's not as though Linda went running to the police.. I believe Ronnie Howard made the phone call that broke the case. Info given to her directly from Susan..
Linda took a deal that any of us would have taken in her situation...
Is she the angel Bugliosi painted, hell no. But Susan isn't the angel you're painting...
=)
Savage, You still haven't answered me, do you feel that these people deserved to be punished for what they did?
Ok, so if you feel they should have been punished, why do you hate Linda?
So Linda took a deal, I would have taken it too. She didn't ask for the deal, they gave it to her...
Linda wasn't the only one to testify. Others knew things and came forward too. We ASSUME it was Linda's testimony that put these people away..
I don't... I think it was the stupid and childish things the defendants did that helped to seal their fate. They made it their goal to cause as many disruptions and problems as they could.
They shaved their heads, burned crosses into their foreheads, turned their chairs around and put their backs to the judge, they kicked, screamed, hollered, giggled, laughed, waved and joked. When Manson spoke or nodded, they'd stand up chanting shit... They went thru lawyers like dirty underwear. Every single thing was done in front of the jury.. Susan even grabbed a knife off the prosecutors table.
They laughed and giggled as Paul Tate talked about Sharon's dying breath..They thought it was all a great big joke. They took none of it seriously.
During the penalty phase, when remorse mattered, they each said they had none. That they did what was right to them....
So, how can everything be laid at Linda's feet?
At what point do they start accepting responsibility for their actions? At what point do you realize that they did this to themselves?
"Linda Kasabian has made many bad choices in life and continues to do so."
I'm rather curious as to why you care about Linda's life?
You have never made any bad choices in life?
I guess I just don't understand where you're coming from Savage, in you're anger towards Linda..
All I can assume is it's because she put poor Susan away...
Even without Linda, Susan was yapping like a whore in confession.
She was telling anyone who'd listen about the murders... Linda didn't snitch, Ronnie Howard did.
Did Susan really think she could tell people about these murders and no one would go to the cops? It was the biggest thing going at the time, Hell, it was HUGE.. That $25,000 reward had to look pretty juicy too.
Even in today's world, $25,000 is a nice little chunk of change....
Money talks....
So, like I said, I just don't understand your position....
"Heaven, Susan seems to get the benefit of the doubt bar none for her bad choices. Plus she's sweet and she kisses nice."
She must huh?
I mean it's perfectly forgivable to sneer and mock a sobbing pregnant woman. It's ok to tell everyone for 22 years that you enjoyed killing her, that you climaxed when her blood squirted out... That's all forgivable...
But it's completely unforgivable to make bad choices lol
As opposed to the good choices that Susan made LOL
Savage,
It's not Linda's fault the Bugliosi painted her out to be a saint. I've read a few of Linda's interviews and she never says she's an angel. She has problems just like everyone else.
You seem to buy everything that Bugliosi sold us.... Not including the Helter Skelter theory, I don't think anyone buys that...
Linda was offered a deal, she took it. After she testified, her part of the bargain was over. Bugliosi wanted her to be painted as an angel. That's not her fault.
By the time his book came out, she was long gone...
If I recall correctly, Susan was offered a deal too, and she took it...
If she testified truthfully at the Grand Jury and at the trials, they wouldn't seek the death penalty against her... She jumped on it and testified before the GJ...
But see, Susan didn't want her friends angry at her, so she demanded to see Manson, who "made" her recant her GJ testimony.
Before you say that none of that is true, go read her self serving book, cause these are Susan's words.
Susan was the first to tell the world, not Linda.. Why do you not remember any of this?
Lets also not forget that Susan's deal also included that her testimony at the GJ wouldn't be used against her, or her co-defendants...
Which is very confusing to me. If you're not going to use it, why offer her a deal in the first place?
"You put too much faith in her grand jury testimony"
I put no faith in anything Susan says. I wouldn't trust her to tell the truth on the time of day.
Her Grand Jury testimony was a joke. But remember, that's the story she says is true...
If that testimony is true, then her parole hearings are lies.
22 years she tells the same story, 22 years away from Manson, away from the drugs...
Susan will always have an excuse, a crutch. Be it Manson, the drugs or her tragic childhood. It'll always be something other than Susan.
Hmm, maybe the attraction you have with Susan is you both profess to be Christians, yet I wonder if either of you even know what the word really means....
You sit in judgement of Linda because of poor choices she's made, as though you've never made any mistakes.
Susan's changed, but yet still lies to this day...
Monk, I dunno bout you, but this argument is getting pointless...
Savage,
Since you're a Christian, and you seem to have more then enough time to poke around Spahn ranch looking for gum Susan might have spit out, have you ever considered trying to find Linda and maybe helping her in her very misguided path in life?
Ya know, I'm not an expert on the Bible, but I do believe God told us to forgive others for their transgressions. Others would include Linda...
Even though Linda's life has no bearing on you. Instead of spitting on her and wishing the family had killed her, how about offering her your Christian hand...
It is not your place to pass judgement on Linda...
Savage,
At least Susan had a mother to love and love her back. I never did...
"lol, what's this i'm hearing from the woman that crucifies Susan Atkins with the name of Sharon Tate with every other breath? :-)"
That's where you're wrong, I didn't crucify Susan, she did it to herself.
She's being punished for crimes she committed. I'm not Manson, I didn't make her do it..
And with that, I'll make that my last post about Susan.
Hopefully the next topic Col Scott makes won't be hijacked in Susan's name....
Monk,
LOL good one...
My "mother" still has a pulse, if you can call it that...
She was a junkie before I was born and is a junkie to this day.
She was abusive, mean, hateful, vindictive, nasty, cruel and spiteful. Everything a mother isn't supposed to be to her children.
My grandmother raised me because my mother was so bad.. She was the closest thing I ever had to a mother, she passed away in 2001. There isn't a day goes by that I don't wish I could still wrap my arms around her...
My dad was never there either, he worked more than he was home.. When he was home, my parents fought like animals...
Since no one cared what was happening right under their nose, my brother began molesting me when I was 3, he was 10 years older than me...
So it REALLY pisses me off to hear "poor whats her face".. No mommy, no daddy, big brother molested me...
Grow ta hell up, you're not the only one who ever suffered.
Maybe this is more personal then I should share here, but I'm so tired of her bad childhood being her crutch. She's 58 frigging years old, get over it.
And with THAT, I'm done with what's her face....
No, I can't...
Choices, it's all about choices. I'm angry at anyone who uses a tramatic childhood as means to cause death and destruction.
To quote one of my favorite band: Fleetwood Mack
"If you think you're life was bad to you, just think what tomorrow will do"
You can make a choice to try and overcome the terrible things that happened to you.
I won't say that I didn't do stupid things when I was a teenager, I did.. But I did them to myself. I never hurt anyone else.
I went on to have two beautiful children and I made it my goal in life to make sure their childhood was better than mine...
I quit drugs years ago, without the help of drug rehab, which is something I am very proud of. I was doing some of the very same drugs the killers were, except Meth, we didn't have it here in the 80's. But if we did, I would have done it..
I smoked grass, dropped acid, snorted coke, took speed.. If it was around, I did it...
But I quit cold turkey when I became a mother. It was no longer about MY life, it was about their life. I devoted myself to being a mother, giving up any dreams I had to become a lawyer. I studied some, but it was from books out of the library... My daughter was a bit of a surprise package...
Am I patting myself on the back? Maybe a little. It takes a lot of hard, thankless work to be a mother. At first, you're a God to them, later, you're a joke... Nothing you do is right and every day you question the choices you make...
I watched my parents make mistakes that would screw us up for the rest of our lives, if I chose to let them....
I didn't, I chose to learn from them and know what NOT to do with your children..
So it's not just "what's her face" that I hold accountable, it's anyone who uses their childhood as a crutch. The statue of limitations for a bad childhood runs out when you're an adult.
I don't expect anyone to agree with me. This is something that not everyone has to deal with, thank God...
But to those of you who had a mother that loved you, I do envy you.
Do I feel bad that "what's her face" suffered as an innocent child, yes I do. I feel bad for any child that's suffered. But I'll be the first one to shake the hand of those that CHOSE to overcome.
A bad childhood isn't a disease with no cure. The cure lies within the victim.
You'd think I could spell Mac lol
Fleetwood Mac...
I swear, someday I will proofread lol
So Savage, I don't hate Susan (sorry, I'll drop it after I make my point lol)
I don't hate Susan the human being, I hate the act she committed, then blamed it on everyone but herself...
I also feel bad for Linda, her life was never an easy one, but I do admire her for not having it in her to kill.
If Susan is a changed woman, that's wonderful. But it doesn't bring back the gut wrenching trauma that she brought to so many lives.
I have a daughter and I can never imagine my life without her. To not have her here on birthdays, holidays. To see her carrying my first grandchild, only to have them both stolen from me in one single senseless act.
I don't know how Doris Tate ever went on with her life. I consider myself a strong woman, but that lady was stronger than I could ever be.
If Sharon had been my daughter I would have killed the bastards myself and worried about jail later.
To lose a child, I can't even imagine the pain and suffering. To lose one so needlessly, if even harder to imagine..
Then, to watch my daughters killer laugh, mock and make a joke out of my loss and suffering would have been more than I could take....
It's hard for me to "forgive" Susan. Forgiving her isn't my job. I'm sure God has already forgiven her. So she doesn't need my forgiveness...
But, forgiving her doesn't mean we should just allow her to re-join society. Her crimes were vicious, hateful and very brutal. You say she never killed anyone, holding down a tiny sobbing pregnant women is as bad as plunging the knife in yourself.
It all equals murder.
Susan has to live with her demons. As I said earlier, I wouldn't want her actions on my conscience every day. I'd go nuts just trying to forgive myself...
I'm sorry the roads in Susan's heart have been paved with heartbreak and misery. But I'm also sorry for the heartbreak and misery she passed on to others..
In a perfect world we won't have child molesters, rapists or murderers. But we don't live in the perfect world...
Susan is where she needs to be. I know she hates it there, she's not supposed to enjoy it. But at least in jail, she's getting the help and support she needs to be a better human being.
I think this is where God wants her to be. She's helping others now, and that's commendable. I'm just sorry so many dead bodies lay in the paths behind her...
But please, do not feel sorry for me.. I'm just another person who has overcome. I am not a martyr, I'm just Heaven....
=)
Thank you Monk,
I respect you a great deal as well...
=)
Heaven Monk,
oh Heaven wow. That's some heavy stuff. I wish I could give you a hug! You should NEVER have had to deal with all that crap. NEVER.
You sure did overcome. I salute the great gal you've become. I had developed a lot of respect for you just by reading your intelligent, well-written and funny posts. That respect has gone up significantly!
(and I can TOTALLY see why whats-her-name's sob story of an excuse would offend you. Hell it offends me too!)
Amen Monk I agree 100 percent
Heaven you have my upmost respect.
Ya know, if I were around back in 1969, I would have fallen into the Manson family...
I can see how that must have looked good to these kids that had no body.
Here is a group of people your own age, roughly, all loving one another, sharing everything you have, watching each others backs... The music, the drugs, the no rules or hang-ups.... Time basically standing still. Not to mention some of the big names they knew... Dennis Wilson, Mama Cass.....
I can see how that looked pretty damned good...
What I can't see is believing Manson to be Jesus Christ.
I would have been either kicked out of the family or killed cause the first time he told me he was Jesus, I would have said BULLSHIT lol
How bout any of you? When it was all peace and love, could you see yourself being a member?
Thank you 60skid...
=)
Savage,
To this day I have no idea who my real mother is. I was raised by my grandma ..my dad mom. She was 60 when she took me as a baby.
My dad was in my life ..but not full time.
I wish I had a mother.
But that does not give me the right to kill people. then complain to every one under the sun ..about how ruff it is in prison. or expect people to feel sorry for me .
You take the hand that was dealt you and you make something of it.
Savage,
I agree with every one it time to stop taking about Susan..because she is not worth the trouble. But one point I do need to make
I have a daughter and I can never imagine my life without her. To not have her here on birthdays, holidays. To see her carrying my first grandchild, only to have them both stolen from me in one single senseless act.
I don't know how Doris Tate ever went on with her life. I consider myself a strong woman, but that lady was stronger than I could ever be.
If Sharon had been my daughter I would have killed the bastards myself and worried about jail later.
I have 3 beautiful daughters my self .. If anything ever happened to my daughters like that . I agree with heaven ..I would worry about Jail later.
Savage think of Mrs Tate having to look at Susan ..if it would have been me ..they would have had to shot me to stop me from getting her.
Poor Abgail mother is over 90 and she gets death threats.
I could go on and on,But then I should feel sorry for Susan. Not in this life time.
Also for the record Susan Adkins is known to be the world biggest Snitch and the dumbest snitch..she put her self and every one else in prison
That scorpion Manson made was pretty cool
It was very well made too I thought Wow Charlie has talent
Monk, I thinking but That is hard to answer ..Also I can not picture hanging out with you know who.
but VD, that might dampen things rather quickly :-)
Real quick . I also do not see my self going on a garbage run .
I do not see my self getting pass around.
Like Monk Said. My grandma would have came there and kick my butt and Charlie"s too ...and took me home.
Savage,
I think for me, the real treat would have been seeing the Beatles White Album first get released in December 1968 ..... Best Album ever made, in my opinion !!!!!
Now you know I will not agree with that ..because we never agree on anything LOL
St Pepper was a better Albun I think.
Savage,
I guess your a Lennon Fan.. I like Paul. I also guess you think Yoko Ono is a wonderful lady.
Savage,
Did you know Sharon named her puppy Prudence". after thst song ?
Savage,
The Beatles left their mark on mankind. I can't say that about any other group. Even as individuals, they all had successfull careers beyond the Apple label.
Yes they did. But I can not buy that the White Album meant anything about killing .
Savage,
Yes Sharon was a Beatles fan . She once invited her parents to a party with the Beatles.
Savage,
Also another werid thing ... The Bug lies in HS about what happened to Sharon dog Prudence.
He says she died shorty after Sharon.. that is not true. Col & Mrs Tate took her.
Yes Voyteck ran over and killed the first Yorkie Dr Sapirstein..named after the Dr in Rosemary Baby.
Sharon was never told Voyteck killed the dog.it happened when she was in London
Prudence was the puppy got for her after Dr Sapirstein died.
Roman said after the murders ..he should have throw out Voyteck when he killed the dog
I never heard if he was high when he did it. Roman and Sharon were both in London
Voyteck was caring for the dog and then run it over.
Guess what happned to Prudence ? about 10 years after Sharon was murdered Debra Tate ran over her
I was never into the Beatles, I've always been a Pink Floyd fan... But maybe if I had been a 60's child, I would have been into the Beatles...
Pink Floyd and Fleetwood Mac are my two favorites...
As for the Manson mind control..
I believe that it is possible for people to gain completely control over others. But I just have trouble with it being Charles Manson...
What was so special about him? I'm 6 ft tall, so to me, he was very short..
He was not good looking at all. In fact, he'd send Paul Watkins out to recruit new girls because they were turned off by him...
I just can't see what he had that was so captivating?
The drugs? Ok, but the effects of drugs do wear off..
I definitely could have fallen into the whole family scene, but I can guarantee you, I wouldn't have fallen for Manson...
=)
That's a pretty wild song Jane...
=)
We all know this one...
Bloodbath In Paradise
Ozzy Osbourne
Your comin' home
There's blood on the walls
When charlie and the family made house calls
If you're alone
Then watch what you do
'cos charlie and the family might get you, yeah
Chorus:
Can you hear them
In the darkness
Helter skelter
Spiral madness, yeah
Bloodbath in paradise, but there's no where you can run to baby
Bloodbath in paradise - forever sleep in Paradise.
California sun
But you're still in bed
And the California rain is turning red
No sign of life
Or the keepers of doom
In charlie and the keeper's scarlet room, yeah
Chorus
They'll summon you
To wake from the dead As you lie bleeding, murdered in your bed
The sweetest dreams are all in your mind
But no one wakes when charlie creeps behind, yeah
Execution
Halts your breath
Helter skelter
Spiral death, yeah
Bloodbath in paradise, but there's no where you break out baby
Bloodbath in paradise - forever sleep in paradise
There was a girl in KTS a couple years ago who believed every song The Eagles ever wrote was about the Manson case.
Some people swear that Hotel California is about the case, but Don Henley has said 100 times that it isn't...
=)
There was a girl in KTS a couple years ago who believed every song The Eagles ever wrote was about the Manson case.
I never heard amy of The Eagles songs were about the Manson case . This girl believe that ?
She was convinced every song ever written was somehow about Manson or the girls..
Even when you gave her a link to the artist, and the writer would say what the song was about, she's still argue that it was about Manson lol
She didn't last long lol
Ahh well... What can ya do? Some people give Manson way more credit than he deserves lol
=)
Even when you gave her a link to the artist, and the writer would say what the song was about, she's still argue that it was about Manson lol
Oh Boy LOL
Jane Doe,
I've been listening to this song called Sadie by Alkaline Trio for days:
Sounds intresting this song ..never heard it.
I think Manson did have control over some people, but I also heard some people didn't buy into his crap... Like Paul Crockett...
Try as Charlie may, he couldn't bring Crockett around to his way of thinking.
Other people were just around for the drugs and sex, when murder became the topic, they left. I would have too.
i met john lennon in 1971 in ann arbor michigan, he was there with yoko to play a benifit for john sinclair, i smoked weed with him for 3 hours talking about manson and the songs sexy sadie and healter skelter, john kept telling me that healter skelter was just about a slide not confusion
Heaven,
Other people were just around for the drugs and sex, when murder became the topic, they left. I would have too.
Yes and I think some of them were just bad seeds to start with.
Nellie,
john kept telling me that healter skelter was just about a slide not confusion
Yes Helter Skelter was about a slide ..nothing more.
According to Don Henley, Hotel California is a made up place.
"The simple answer is that there is no true meaning to this song. The
Eagles were impressed by the way that Steely Dan could make what they
described as 'junk sculpture' songs where they took weird disjointed
lyrics, combined them with great music, and turned out hits. In fact,
this song evolved in the reverse style of song making, with the great
guitar parts of Don Felder laid down first, and then lyrics added
later."
"The real Hotel California is not a place; it is a metaphor for the
west coast music industry and its effect on the talented but unworldy
musicians who find themselves ensnared in its glittering web."
"Guitarist Don Felder himself vividly remembers the day he came up with the idea for the song: he says:
"I had just leased this house out on the beach at Malibu-- I remember sitting in the living room, with the doors wide open, on a spectacular July day. I had a bathing suit on and I was sitting on this couch, soaking wet, thinking the world is a wonderful place to be. I had this acoustic 12-string and started tinkling around with it, and those 'Hotel California' chords just kind of oozed out”.
Lots of people swear that he's singling about Manson, but he says it had nothing to do with him..
It's just a song, nothing more, nothing less.
"Don Henley is from Texas, Glenn Frey grew up in Detroit (and sang back-up for Bob Seger), and the other members grew up in various areas of the country. "Hotel California" really has no meaning - Frey/Henley were trying to copy one of their favorite bands at the time, Steely Dan, and called their song-writing style "junk sculpture."
=)
well john lennon was confused why charlie thought that healter skelter ment choas, when i told him that charlie had called sadie sexy sadie maye glutz before the song was even worte and that it fit her like a glove , john was floored and stuned
LOL Audio, yeah it does....
=)
Savage,
I can't argue with you, You're right. Whatever choices Linda made, she has to live with them.
But Monk could be right. We don't know anything about Linda now, her troubles could be behind her. We don't know if she has or hasn't turned her life around...
=)
I've been told too that Pat isn't much for visitors unless it's family...
Too many people have tried to get to her only to talk about the crimes.. She has said she doesn't want to discuss them....
I've wanted to write her but I'm also told that she doesn't respond... Maybe someday I'll try anyway and see what happens...
=)
Might have been from all the kissing she does
=)
Salem,
Charlie was abused also as a child ..he spent more time in prison then all of them.
But I never hear anyone feeling sorry for him.
I will never believe HS and Charlie led anyone around.
I also believe you play the hand that was deal to you in life.
Blaming someone else for what you did ..is a excuse to me.
Its werid Patricia was more involved in the murders ..but people seem to feel more for her.
Salem,
VERY PEACEFUL PEOPLE THAT LIVE MUCH LIKE THE AMISH. ( EXCEPT THEY DO SMOKE WEED)
I live about 30 miles from the amish .. Very nice people.They built a whole Wal Mart for them in Middlefield,Ohio
Salem ,
What is it about people like Bill Nelson & others ..who hide behind behind the christian label.
If you really mean it ..its one thing..but to do it for gain of any kind is another.
Bill Nelson got what he deserved:)
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