Sunday, February 26, 2006

Gateway Supermarkets Are No More


Why the LaBiancas? That's this week's question.

Unlike the previous night, Charlie goes with everyone. Enters the house. Talks to and meets the victims. Ties them up/

Unlike the previous night, the group drive around town seemingly not having a victim in mind.

If you believe Kasabian, Charlie almost shoots several people.

THEN the group change direction (perhaps they did have a goal in mind) and they end up at the house NEXT DOOR to Harold True, where some of them had partied before.

I've been to both houses. They are pretty random and ordinary, not all that special.

I've heard a theory that Charlie was denied at True's like he had been at Melcher's and was sending a message. Don't make sense.

We've all heard that the girls had gone on garbage runs at the Gateway Market owned by Leno.

We've all heard the stories of black books and the mob. Contract killings.

But ask yourself this. Charlie WALKED into their house, like Tex walked into Voytek's abode.

I think Charlie knew Leno. He knew Tex would kill him. He wanted Tex to think it was random, hence the driving.

But I wish I knew HOW he knew Leno.

701 comments:

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60skid said...
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ColScott said...

Sure we all heard this but it makes ZERO sense................

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agnostic monk said...

Hey there Col, how are you doing lately?

I can't recall exactly where I read this, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that a party at the Harold True house sometime in 1969 prior to the murders was shut down by the cops because a neighbor had called the police and complained about the noise, and that Manson and some of the girls were present at this party. Manson was pissed that some "pig" had interfered with his family's fun.

Who knows if that's really true, though. But maybe it's as simple as that?

By the way, I always find it interesting that Manson himself freely admits to entering the Labianca home, tying them up, and then leaving the kids to do their thing. Even if he didn't actually ORDER them to kill the couple, he knew what these zombies had done the night before. That fact alone is why I am amazed that Manson has any supporters claiming that he is innocent (such as the bratty little thug Sandra Good, not to mention the countless people who were never affiliated with the Family but do claim Manson is a great guy).

60skid said...
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catscradle77 said...
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Heaven said...

I disagree about Tex just walking into the Tates..

Tex broke in....

Heaven said...

What about this little black book? Any word on it?

Alice LaBianca said it did exist and she turned it over to the police.. It was never seen or heard about again...

If that's true, wouldn't it be a piece of important evidence? Why would the cops just make it disappear?

Unless.............

nellieoleson said...

col is it true that leno owed the mafia money he used to gamble at hollywood park, and santa anita

ColScott said...

Okay Heaven he broke in... and then everyone walked around waving hellos for a while...

Heaven said...

Col,

We don't know that Abigail really waved at Susan.. She said she did, but Susan seems to lie about everything. It's hard to believe anything she says about that night...

I don't think she even knows the truth anymore...

I don't recall anything about Tex making hello's with Jay, Abigail or Sharon.. Only "hello" I remember slid outta Susan's mouth...

But hey, that's just me...

=)

60skid said...
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Salem said...

Could it be that CM met someone when he was in Terminal Island who was aware of Leno LaBianca's gambling debts. Knew he owned a chain of grocery stores, and talked to CM about it. A possible hit man? What CM would get out of the little black book is a mystery to me but perhaps he wanted to to sell it or something...

Audio

This is very close to what I have been told.

Salem said...

That and also that Tex made it look like a copycat of what happened at Polanski's house.

catscradle77 said...
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60skid said...
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60skid said...
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agnostic monk said...

60skid said...
"I hope Leno was not raping Linda LOL"

It was all Linda's fault. She had met Leno and Rosemary at the lake and they were rude to her, called her a dumb hippie. Leno was a perv who also put the moves on little Tonya. Rosemary insulted Linda, told her that her clothes were ugly and her hairstyle was gauche and bourgeois.

So Linda gave everyone some LSD and some speed, instructed them to get a knife and a change of clothes, and to kill the Labiancas and make it as gruesome as possible. She even told Pat Krenwinkle exactly what to write on the walls in blood. Charlie was just along for the ride because he had smoked too much weed and needed some air.

It's that little Linda Kasabian, I tell you. I heard she was behind 9-11 too.

:)

Heaven said...

Audio,

The wig shop is my take too.. I'm wondering if Rosemary and Tex had met before....

Monk,

Your last post cracked me up lol

Could Linda be at fault for the war in Iraq too?

=)

catscradle77 said...
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agnostic monk said...

Well duh, Heaven, isn't that already obvious? Linda is also responsible for the AIDS epidemic and for Global Warming. The little bitch will stop at nothing to wreak havok all the while appearing the gentle frightened hippie girl.

(p.s. I read your post on KTS about your daughter. I was laughing out loud. Reminded me a little of my youngest sister's teenage years and my mom - they're very close now though).

catscradle77 said...
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Heaven said...

Damn that Linda!! Good thing I never voted for her!

Monk,

My daughter is STILL pissy... I'm tired of listening to her bitch and moan about how hard she has it... Wonder if it's too late to put her up for adoption..

=)

60skid said...
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Dok said...

Two questions:

How late was Susan getting to her parents home?

How would the News stand man alert Manson that the Labiancas' were on their way home?

catscradle77 said...
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Heaven said...

I'm coming down with a rotten cold... Would I be able to pin this on Linda?

=)

Heaven said...

Cats,

If I remember the story correctly, Frank stayed on at Lake Isabella with his friend, Jim Saffie....

The returned back to LA sometime in the evening of August 10th.. Jim dropped Frank off around 8:30...

Frank went to the hamburder stand and called Suzan, she and her boyfriend arrived at about 9:30... From there they drove over to their parents house...

My question is, why didn't Frank have a key to get in? They had to use a key that Rosemary left in her car that was in the garage...

If Frank did have a key, but didn't dare to go in, why?

I know that Suzan and Rosemary didn't get a long at all. Rosemary was always bailing Suzan out of trouble...

Suzan's boyfriend, Joe Dorgan, had spent time out at Spahn...

When they arrived at the LaBainca's house, I wonder why Joe made Suzan wait in the kitchen?

Did Joe have some suspicion as to what they were going to find?

Gypsy once said that Susan and Clem had "creepy-crawled" their house... Leno wrote to his daughter once and said someone had been inside because furniture had been moved around.. At times, they found the dogs outside when they were supposed to be in..

So, it's really anyone's guess... But I don't think the LaBianca's were the random hit Manson wanted it to appear...

60skid said...
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agnostic monk said...

LOL, Audio: Linda the Zodiac killer. She also framed Ted Bundy. Bitch gets around.

Heaven, I dont see any reason to rule out Linda as a suspect in your catching that cold. I'm blaming her for today's chilly/rainy San Francisco weather and my slight hangover. She forced me to drink one too many glasses of wine last night.

SOMEONE STOP LINDA KASABIAN BEFORE SHE KILLS US ALL!!!!!!!!!!!

60skid said...
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RichSpeck said...

"I feel sorry for Susan because she's not the type of person that deserves to marketed in the way that she's been for so many years"

She is a convicted murderer. Its not marketing.

But I feel she has served her time, too.

Cut her loose. Or keep everyone in jail.

60skid said...
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60skid said...
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Dok said...

Susan had nothing to do with Stephen Parent or Jay Sebring's deaths?!! What? She may not have physically inflicted death on them, but she had something to do with it. She was there, she participated, she did not get help. All lead to her involvement. Nothing to do with their murders is an atrocious statement.

Yes, I am sure Susan has suffered a great deal. Yes she was a young girl at the time of the crimes, but what she did was not kid stuff. It was all done by her on choice. Her sentence was death, she should count it a blessing that she is still alive. I don't care if she is locked up. She is married, fed, has health care, and a roof over her head. There is not much more she should have.

Dok said...

What sane person commits murder? And better yet, what sane person tastes a dying pregnant womans blood?

60skid said...
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agnostic monk said...

Savage, you're not giving the folks who participate in this blog enough credit. You act like everyone here is being duped by Bugliosi's book and you are the only one who sees things for what they are. That is completely wrong of you. Most of us are pretty well-versed in the case and we know as much as anyone else who did what specifically, and are not so easily led by media sensationalism.

I'm not sure I believe that Susan actually stabbed anyone, but her presence in the Tate household was that of a murderer, plain and simply. The very act of grabbing Sharon Tate in a head-lock and throwing her down on the couch (and mocking her all along), prepping the hunted for the hunter Tex is enough for me to feel ZERO sympathy for Susan Atkins.

She is as much responsible for the way she is perceived as anyone. Don't blame Bugliosi for portraying Susan a certain way. She did it to herself. All her wacky statements to cellmates and to the press, about tasting blood (whether it was true or not), about the sexual thrill of stabbing Sharon (whether it was true or not), writing in Sharon's blood, things she said so cavalierly, the giggling and taunting in the courtroom. The bitch and the bitch alone is responsible for how she is perceived.

And as pointed out, she's been fed, housed, clothed, and educated on my dime. She got off easy. She can suck on it for all I care. And when she's done sucking on it, she can spit it out and pass it to Sandra Good who can then suck on it too. Oh wait, not even Susan wants anything to do with Sandra Good, even though Sandra was so very proud of her friend for what she had done to Sharon Tate and friends.

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nellieoleson said...

look all im saying is if leno was gambleing and owed the mafia money whats in that black book could
be betting and other things

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60skid said...
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agnostic monk said...

The real Michael Savage? I've listened to his show here and there (until I cannot listen anymore because his voice starts to give me a headache) and I have no doubt that he would reach over and smack Savage National Socialist around a little bit for his views on Susan Atkins.

60skid said...
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ColScott said...

ahhh but Savage
I don't believe Charlie controlled ANYONE

60skid said...
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agnostic monk said...

Savage, Susan didn't just "make it worse" by playing it all up to the camera. She made it WHAT IT WAS. After the murders, the shock and sensationalism was a result of Susan. It was Susan's statements to cellmates and the press that caused everything to come down on the Family. It was her doing. People like to call Kasabian the snitch, but the real snitch was Susan Atkins. Before her blabbing the investigation was basically going nowhere, and her grand jury testimony is what sealed set everyone up to have their fate sealed.

shoresendz said...

Hey All: Out of the loop for a few days.. Heaven: I’m actually in agreement with you about Manson going to Cielo after the murders, just his reasoning of why he went. Had to be a good reason for him returning to the crime scene. Also, have you talked to Inez Folger? If so, has she given you any reason to believe Abigail knew Manson or confirmed the Kenneth Anger angle? As to Roman’s Alibi: Didn’t mean he had to be in the country the night of the murders to be involved…then again, Polanski says he was with another woman the night of the murders, wonder why that woman never hit the tabloids with “I was with Roman Polanski while Sharon was murdered.” Could have made a lot of money for that little cutie. Also, Roman wasn’t part of the funding for the $25,000 reward. As for him being so distraught? Don’t forget, Polanksi’s a good actor. Watch his press conference again some time. While he’s in the middle of being really upset, he looks off to the side as if to make sure someone is watching. Just some thoughts.

shoresendz said...

How about this scenario for the LaBiancas: 1st, we should think about (if the reports are correct) Rosemary leaving an estate of 2.5 million. That’s a shit load of money for a woman at that time to have. No way she made that kind of cash selling dresses. So, how did Rosemary make that kind of money? And, if she had all that money, why was Leno in debt?
2nd: I think we should all look at the timing that night. And the fact that only Manson & Watson knew the score. Manson drives aimlessly (yet with intent to lather up the killers for Helter Skelter kill mode) until he, stops at a house in Pasadena. While there, he sends the rest of the gang around the block so he can check it out…which, Manson didn’t do at the LaBiancas. With that in mind, I think he stopped at the Pasadena house to talk to someone about what time the LaBiancas would be arriving home from their trip. He has the rest drive around the block so they won’t see that he’s made contact with anyone. Maybe Suzan LaBerge called to tell the Pasadena resident what time they were leaving Lake Isabella. From Pasadena, Manson gives Kasabian very specific directions to the LaBiancas. Once there, Manson (& Watson?) definitely went in ahead of the others to get information, or items. Also, let’s remember that the killers took their sweet little time at the LaBiancas, going through clothes, taking showers, playing with dogs, eating. To me that implies that they knew no one else would be coming home any time soon. Why would LaBerge be an accomplice to this? Suzan didn’t get along with her mother or Leno. She either helped Manson to set up what she thought was a robbery, or she helped Manson set up a hit to get her mother’s estate. If the LaBiancas did have any drug connections, that could be why there were break ins, maybe Manson looking for money or drugs that Suzan told him about? Manson can’t find the money or the drugs while the LaBiancas aren’t home, so they wait for a time when Suzan knows Frank won’t be home and plans are made when she finds out about Lake Isabella. Also, could be that Manson broke into the house while the LaBiancas were at the Lake and still couldn’t find what he wanted.

How did Manson and LaBerge hook up in the first place? I’m pretty sure the LaBianca home was vacant during the period of True living next door. Manson’s always looking for a place to crash with the gang. Sees the vacant house. Asks Harold True about it. Maybe Suzan was hanging with the True gang too, she did live in the neighborhood. So maybe True or someone else hanging there hook up Manson with Suzan? Here I am putting all the blame on Manson, but maybe it was Watson that hooked up with LaBerge—I never did buy that born-again-Christian-forgiveness crap. Why didn’t LaBerge forgive the rest of the killers and go to their parole hearings to beg for their release?

60skid said...
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60skid said...

shoresendz,
Good points. But I think if they just wanted to rob the La Bianca's they could have done it.when they were at the lake.

I really think what ever was to go down .. The La Bianca's were to be murdered. Charlie knew that was going to happen ..when he went with Tex and the girls that night.

I think maybe Suzan & her boyfriend helped set it up. Suzan knew her little brother was going to be gone.

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Heaven said...

I believe Susan was charged in the deaths of Rosemary and Leno because she is in the car, knew it was going to happen, and went along anyway.

Had she not been in the car, I doubt they would have charged her. Maybe with conspiracy, I dunno...

As for her changing... It's anyone's guess if that's real or just a show put on to gain sympathy. Maybe she has changed. It's been 37 years and one hearing aid later.

Changed doesn't mean she's served her time. 4.6 years for 8 deaths, in my opinion, doesn't cut it.

I still come back to the fact that she made her choices...

She was sent to death, she should be happy that was never carried out.

Deb said...

Colonel:

This might not mean anything at all but I was watching part of Robert Hendrickson's documentary Manson last night. It was made in 1970 or so. When Hendrickson was talking to Brenda, Sandy Good and Lynn Fromme, the film intercuts with shots of a Gateway grocery store and then to the girls going through the garbage looking for produce that is still good to eat.

The film switches over to Paul Watkins and some other guy who then say that sometimes the girls had to sleep with the manager or someone else with store authority in order to be able to go through the garbage.

Just a thought but since the film specifically focuses on a Gateway store and not a Safeway or whatever grocery store maybe the girls or Manson met LaBianca this way?

PS. I think Linda gave me my sore throat and cold - augh

Heaven said...

Savage hon,

I see you talking about the "Susan of today"..

The "Susan of today" does not erase the horrible things she took part in. The fact that "she's changed" does not bring people back from the dead.

Susan is being punished for her crimes. Prison wasn't meant to be easy. She already has it better than she was supposed too. She was supposed to be executed but wasn't..

Think about all the years that Col Tate and Doris suffered without Sharon and her baby. Think about all the holidays and birthdays that they never got to share with her.

Think about Abigail's mother, who is still alive today and is still paying for the acts of the killers.

Susan changing is great, but let's seriously ask ourselves. How many choices did Susan have.. Two really..

To change and possibly get paroled, or, to cause as many problems as she can and never be paroled.

A lot of prisoners change, but changing isn't going to excuse what they did.

I'm sure Tookie Williams changed, but he still had to pay for his crime.

Susan owns society and her victims, a debt. That debt must be paid.

If she had killed your mother, father, sister, brother, child, or even yourself, wouldn't you want your death to be worth more than 4.6 years?

Think about it.

shoresendz said...

60's Kid you're def. right, but what if Manson/Watson couldn't find "it" while the LaBiancas were out of the house? (And I think they tried numerous times)They'd have to go when they were home.

Heaven said...

I recall reading where Manson had driven around that night, peeking in windows, looking for his next victims. But if he found pictures of children, he'd move on to the next house. According to him, he didn't want to start killing children just yet, but the time might come later when they'd have too.

So after a while of driving and not finding any victims, Manson drove on to the LaBianca's..

That doesn't make it sound like they were the intended victims, at first anyway. Could Manson have picked them later cause he couldn't find anyone else?

60skid said...

heaven,
That doesn't make it sound like they were the intended victims, at first anyway. Could Manson have picked them later cause he couldn't find anyone else?

Yes Manson could have picked them ..after he found no one home.
But I really think some how ..Manson knew Leno.

catscradle77 said...
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60skid said...

In reading The Labianca Homicide report... Suzan was a suspect in the fraudulent use of a credit card in January, 1968 . with her boy friend Joe.

If Charlie went to rob the place..he would have taken the guns and coins..Yes Leslie took some change..but nothing to what was in the house.

Rosemary Wallet and credit cards were stolen.

So if Charlie went to rob ..what was in he wanted . The Black book ?

catscradle77 said...

Wasn't Bruce selling coins in London? I forget where I read that...

60skid said...

Cat,
Yes It says that in the book The Family Tat Bruce was selling coins . Police report says nothing appeared to be ransacked in the house.
Rosemary & Leno had 3 dogs who were know to bark at strangers ..but no neighbors heard anything.
Rifles and handguns were in the home and not touched ..also a gallon jug of coins not touched
Charlie was in to guns..but they did not take them.

Bren said...


Exactly.

They are right where they deserve to be.
Bren :)


Heaven said:
A lot of prisoners change, but changing isn't going to excuse what they did.

60skid said...

heaven,
4.6 years for a life is nothing. None of the killers are going to change

Bren said...

I've always found it strange that nothing, or rather everything was not taken from both crime scenes.
I mean they might of well taken drugs and money from both, but why not take it all.
Leaving what they left is just strange to me.
Bren :)

60skid said:
Yes It says that in the book The Family Tat Bruce was selling coins . Police report says nothing appeared to be ransacked in the house.
Rosemary & Leno had 3 dogs who were know to bark at strangers ..but no neighbors heard anything.
Rifles and handguns were in the home and not touched ..also a gallon jug of coins not touched
Charlie was in to guns..but they did not take them.

catscradle77 said...

Okay-let's assume the "normal" stuff that gets stolen isn't touched...but something else was...whose word can we rely on that nothing was taken? Suzan, who may have her own vested interest in reporting whatever might have been taken...in other words, we will really never know, for if the cops asked "do you notice if anything is missing" and Suzan answered "no"..that would leave Frank Jr. who was given the doorknob in the fridge warning for the knob was from his room...

60skid said...

Cat, That is very true. It does not sound like Leno kids were around much. to know much about what was missing.

I also wonder why Suzan did not work for Leno or her mother.In a supermarket they always need help ..doing something.

They say Manson like to disapper sometimes.Maybe he met Leno on these travels.

Heaven said...

It amazes me the number of people who feel Susan deserves to be paroled.

Why does she deserve it? Because she's a Christian? Because she's behaved herself in prison. Well, with the exception of stabbing her husband.

If you do the math, 37 years divided by 7 lives comes out to 4.6 years served for EACH murder. But if you count baby Paul, that's 8 murders. So, divide 37 by 8 and it's only 5.2 years served for EACH murder.

Same applies to Tex and to Patricia..

So some of you actually believe that 5.2 years is a debt that's been repaid? What if it was your loved one, or even yourself that was slaughtered in a most gruesome fashion? Wouldn't you want your life to be worth more?

I've seen so many people use the "Well, she's served more time that others that have committed murder."
I wonder if those people have stopped to realize that those "other people", were not convicted of 7 murders.

Whether you agree with her conviction or not is irrelevant. She was found guilty of killing 7 people, whom she claims she didn't know. So, 7 people who never did anything to her...

Now you take Bobby, convicted of 1 murder, he's done 37 years for one murder. If anyone deserves parole (based on lives taken) it's Bobby.

Susan is where she needs to be.. When she can raise 8 people from their graves, then she should be paroled.. Until then, I hope the bed she's made for herself, keeps her warm. Remember, when Susan did all this she was doing what was right to her, she had no guilt or remorse. It was even funny to her. Wonder if she's still laughing now?

Changed? Of course she says she's changed. Maybe she has, but she can change and stay right where she is, enjoying those degrees that we taxpayers paid for.

My opinion..

=)

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60skid said...

Heaven,
My opinion is about the same as yours. I do count baby Paul.

What is so chilling about Susan to me.. is she stood there ..as she says.. I am not sure I believe she did nothing and held a pregnant women..while she watched Tex stab away ..with Susan taunting Sharon the whole time..how she deserved to die .and she did not care ..if she was pregnant or not.

Then she drank her blood and danced in it. She wrote in blood a. she laughed many times about the whole deal. she showed no remorse.

Susan was a mother .. she could have ran to the neighbors at any time. She got in the car the next night.. she just rode along .Yea right.
I sure Susan changed ..she needs a act to get parole. She got degrees we paid for.

Now you take Bobby, convicted of 1 murder, he's done 37 years for one murder. If anyone deserves parole (based on lives taken) it's Bobby.

When you think about like heaven puts it ..Bobby is the only one ..who has really served any time. 37 years. to 5.2years.

Also Bobby was only involved in one murder..not 3 different ones like Susan. Not that one murder is alright.

3 different murders ..you think she would have learned from the 1st one.But no Susan just keeps going on those rides..Susan is the only one ..that was at all 3 murders.

Heaven said...

Savage dear,

You keep saying she didn't kill anyone, but yet, she was convicted of 7 murders. Just because she didn't plunge the knife in herself, does NOT make her innocent. You keep forgetting that...

She was there, she helped and she enjoyed it. Helping makes her just as guilty as the rest. You can say she killed no one, but holding people down so they can be murderered, counts...

It doesn't matter what YOU think, it's how the law worked. She went on trial for 7 murders and was found guilty. End of story.

Besides, you don't know that Susan never killed anyone.. Her saying she didn't is hardly proof. Face it, Susan lies...

Heaven said...

To quote the late Johnny Cochran, "It if don't fit, you must acquit".

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. So it's impossible to kill someone with a glove that doesn't quite fit?

Heaven said...

Sorry, still not proofreading lol

Murdered rather

=)

Savage, I think you and I have agreed to disagree on this topic....

60skid said...

Savage,
Susan told another inmate called Casper at the time of her arrest for Gary Hinman murder ..that the glasses left at the Tate murders were to spend confusion.which today we know is true.
But Susan thought it was funny maybe someone else could get blamed for the murders because of the glasses.
She also claimed that she did not have the nerve to cut the baby out of Sharon body..Because she only liked to kill.

What do you think a defense atty. can do to help a womem who confessed to everyone she met.. she did it..and how she enjoyed it.


A women who sat in court and laughted and thought everything was a joke..Who is laughing now?
3 different murders savage.

You tell me what is her story why she kept going to murders. She needed air.
You will never change my mind Susan is a cold blooded killer..if you want to believe her that is your choice.

Heaven said...

Lemme just sum it up by saying....

If the conviction against Susan was as unlawful as you say, then she should have appealed.. She didn't...

If it was as unlawful as you say, she's be out already, she isn't...

If everything was as incompetent as you say, then she should ask for a new trial, she hasn't.. Maybe she's afraid this time she'll actually go to the gas chamber.

Maybe it's only unlawful to you...

Susan knows what she's done..

The parole board has laws it has to follow.. Even if they grant her parole.. Arnold can still say no...

Again, she should have thought about this before she became involved.

But still, we gutta agree to disagree. We're never going to agree with each other on this one.. And ya know what? We don't have too... Whether we agree or not, Susan is still going to remain in prison...

=)

60skid said...
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60skid said...

There is a movie on Tex's Born again web site. Abounding Love.

Called Forgiven The Charles Watson story .its with Suzan ..Rosemary daughter forgiving him.

I find it hard to believe Suzan forgave Tex.

GLH said...

She did forgive him and even rallied for his parole. However, I have heard that she no longer supports her former plea for his release. I think he is still in contact with him. Makes one wonder if she thinks it wasn't a random crime.

4Sharon said...

That OR, she found out he is not the Christian he is pretending to be. I wonder.

Heaven said...

Maybe she just took a good look and realized her sympathys were in the wrong place...

OR, maybe she realized he's never getting out so they'll never be together...

60skid said...

Maybe she just took a good look and realized her sympathys were in the wrong place...

OR, maybe she realized he's never getting out so they'll never be together
I was wondering that my self

Heaven said...

I kinda think Suzan had a thing for Tex... Maybe some wishful thinking on her part.. But it's hard to get some when he can't put out... Time to move on to someone who can

=)

60skid said...

Anyone know what Suzan is doing these days ?

Heaven ,I always thought maybe Suzan had the thing for Tex too.
Who knows she may have know him from her boyfriend Joe.

agnostic monk said...

isn't it important to keep in mind that the attitude and behavior of the defendants plays into their sentencing and future parole possibilities?

Who could ever forget the image of Susan, Pat, and Leslie during the trial? While the charges against them are read, they laughed. While Linda sat on the witness stand and cried describing the killers enter the Tate house and come out drenched in the victim's blood, Susan giggled. Pat sketched pictures in her notebook. Leslie looked bored. All while sitting in the same room as the victim's family members. They looked up here and there to throw hostile, menacing glares in Linda's direction. They did this with most of the key witnesses.

I don't care how long ago it was or how much she says she has changed. I'll repeat what I said earlier; Susan can suck on it.

Heaven said...

Monk,

I love you.. You have such a great way with words...

Another thing to remember is, the girls didn't want any defense. Manson called all the shots, if he was going down, they were going down..

If they were so worried about all the incompetence, they should have allowed their lawyers to put on a defense..

Susan is now reaping what she sowed. Maybe she should have thought about all this when it was important to do so.

Now she just looks like a pathetic old woman, trying to convince everyone that she's changed.

The only thing that has changed with Susan is her story...

She'll get no sympathy from me...

nellieoleson said...

SWEET BLOND GINGER IS BACK SHE WANTS EVERYONE TO KNOW SHES NOT BRANDI AND THAT TANYA SET HER UP, SO GIVE HER A CHANCE

RichSpeck said...

Heaven said,

"You keep saying she didn't kill anyone, but yet, she was convicted of 7 murders. Just because she didn't plunge the knife in herself, does NOT make her innocent. You keep forgetting that..."

What you don't seem to accept is that conspiracy does not make Susan an actual killer.

If someone does "plunge the knife in" yes that is a killer.

What fatal wound did Susan inflict?

That is why parole should be considered. She aint Tex.

Heaven said...
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Heaven said...

Rich,

If conspiracy doesn't make Susan a killer, then she should have fought harder at her trial..

So, by your standards, it's ok to break into houses and stab people, ohhhh say, in the leg, but it's ok as long as they aren't fatal?

Just curious because you seem to be making light of Susan's involvement

Some people think Tex should be released. I'm not one of them...

=)

Heaven said...

If someone does "plunge the knife in" yes that is a killer

Oh but Susan did plunge a knife into Voyteck, several times...

Because she didn't actually kill him, that makes it ok..

It was only luck that she didn't inflict one of the fatal wounds. There's a few main arteries in the leg that, if punctured, you can bleed to death, quickly..

RichSpeck said...

Heaven said

"It was only luck that she didn't inflict one of the fatal wounds. There's a few main arteries in the leg that, if punctured, you can bleed to death, quickly.."

Luck or bad luck should not get anyone the death penalty.

Or life without parole.

Heaven said...

Well, I don't make the laws hon.. Whether you agree with them or not is totally up to you. She is where she is... Nothing we say here is going to change it...

=)

RichSpeck said...

Heaven said,

"ohhhh say, in the leg, but it's ok as long as they aren't fatal?"

Yes, they could be charged for manslaughter. But a killer? No.

Susan Atkins did not kill anybody.

Heaven said...

Rich hon,

You said, and I quote
"If someone does "plunge the knife in" yes that is a killer"

Susan did plunge the knife in.... Maybe she didn't kill him, but she sure didn't stop any deaths either...

I only gave your words back to ya..

=)

RichSpeck said...

Please quit using that "hon" thing. I'm not trying to belittle you, so don't try to belittle me. Ok?

"Well, I don't make the laws hon.."

I don't really think we are talking about the laws here. It is more about the injustice caused by the Bug's misuse of the legal system.

Right Col?

Heaven, every time you mention the law I think about that.

Heaven said...

The girls had every chance to put on a defense, they blew it...

They laughed, giggled, winked and smirked all thru the trial and the sentencing. It's really hard to feel sorry for people who bring things onto themselves.

If Susan feels she's being held longer than she should or that she didn't get a fair trial, how come she isn't asking for a new one...

Has it been too long or does she fear that if she does have another trial, this time she might actually go to the gas chamber?

=)

Heaven said...

The term "hon" isn't meant to be belittling.. It's what I call everyone that I'm speaking to.. It's meant to be affectionate. But if it offends you, I won't call you hon...

Heaven said...

When I say "laws" I mean whatever it is that the parole board goes by. I'm sure there's laws and guidelines they have to follow.. I studied law, but there only 10 billion different things in it. Hard to know all of em lol

agnostic monk said...

good point Heaven, plus I don't believe the defense was incompentent. These were good lawyers. Paul Fitzgerald was well-respected. Kanarek was annoying but had a rep for being effective. Shin and Caballero weren't stupid either. They did what they could with what they had, which wasn't very much. The girls and Manson made it almost impossible for them.

Jess Bravin's Squeaky bio is very interesting in that it goes into detail about the lawyers and their dealings with the defendants as well as the family girls on the outside. I'm not finished with it yet but I highly recommend it to anyone who hasn't read it.

RichSpeck said...

Heaven said,

"They laughed, giggled, winked and smirked all thru the trial and the sentencing. It's really hard to feel sorry for people who bring things onto themselves."

I know its hard for you to feel sorry for them for the way they acted up. So what.

They were not charged for acting up.

The justice system was skewed by a desperate prosecutor who used hysterics.

Professional? Not.

More of a comment on our flawed judicial system than anything else.

Heaven said...

From what I understand, making it very difficult was their goal..

Manson called the shots.. They followed his every word.. Look where it got them..

Most of them still blame everything on him..

RichSpeck said...

Heaven said,

"The term "hon" isn't meant to be belittling.. It's what I call everyone that I'm speaking to.. It's meant to be affectionate. But if it offends you, I won't call you hon... "

How about if I called you "sweetie pie"? Thats affectionate.

And demeaning.

Get the point?

Heaven said...

Rich,

You're still missing my point.. If the system was flawed, incompetent or just screwed up, why didn't they ever ask for new trials..

They put on no defense, I'm sure they could have gotten new trials had they asked... Maybe not, but it might have been worth a shot to try...

I personally think that by the time they realized that their actions came with consequences, they didn't want to risk the gas chamber that they had escaped once...

But that's just me...

Heaven said...

Rich,

Sweetie pie doesn't offend me. It's a minor thing..

I said if hon bothers you, I won't use it when I'm speaking to you.

Is that ok or should we keep going back and forth on it lol

=)

agnostic monk said...

Rich, manslaughter? No way man. Do a little research into the legalities and technicalities of murder versus manslaughter in the state of California.

Heaven isn't belittling you, that's just her charming conversational style.

:)

Heaven said...

Thank you Monk lol

=)

agnostic monk said...

no prob heaven, we're not trying to gang up on rich I think he's just misreading your tone.

:)

Heaven said...

Yup, me too.. Oh well..

I don't think manslaughter applies either. Here's the definition..

Dictionary
man·slaugh·ter (măn'slô'tər)
n.
The unlawful killing of one human by another without express or implied intent to do injury.


I think we know that Susan's intent with stabbing Voyteck in the leg was to cause injury.

Manslaughter is more "accidental".. Susan wasn't stabbing Voyteck by accident...

RichSpeck said...

Heaven said,

"I personally think that by the time they realized that their actions came with consequences, they didn't want to risk the gas chamber that they had escaped once..."

Personally think are the important words here.

The most that can be said here is, We were not there and most of this is heresay.

These were cases decided by hysterics.

Shame on our parole system for keeping Beausoleil, Atkins, Van Houten incarcerated beyond their rightful parole.

Heaven said...

Here are the different versions of manslaughter.

http://www.answers.com/topic/manslaughter?method=6

My personal favorite reads..

Manslaughter is a distinct crime and is not considered a lesser degree of murder.

Here's another

Premeditation or deliberation, however, are elements of murder and not of manslaughter. Some states have abandoned the use of adjectives to describe different forms of the offense and, instead, simply divide the offense into varying degrees.

Here's the punishment for it

Punishment

The penalty for manslaughter is imprisonment. The precise term of years depends upon the applicable statute. Usually the sentence that is imposed for voluntary manslaughter is greater than that given for involuntary manslaughter. In most states, a more serious penalty is imposed for criminally negligent manslaughter than for unlawful-act manslaughter.

Heaven said...

Rich,

You say shame, I say bravo!

=)

Heaven said...

I think if any of them deserves parole, it's Bobby...

=)

Heaven said...

If it helps at all, here are some of the reasons Susan was denied at her last hearing.

unreasonable risk of danger to society or a threat to public safety

gravity of the offense

offense was carried out in an especially cruel and callous manner

The offense was carried out in a dispassionate and calculated manner in that all the facts in this case suggest premeditation to an extent.

The murder of the first victim, Mr. Hinman, on July 25th, 1969, did not deter you from later committing additional offenses.

unstable social history and prior criminal arrests, which includes arrests

one conviction for possession of marijuana and you have arrests for receiving stolen property, possession of a concealed weapon, reproducing driver's license, possession of dangerous drugs, use by a minor, grand theft

Inmate Atkins does admit responsibility and she offers what appears to be credible expressions of insight and remorse. Complete assurance of her acceptance of responsibility, insight and remorse will probably always be clouded somewhat by the factual disputes that stem from her earlier versions of the crime

need further therapy in order to develop insight into the commitment offense and the underlying cause of the offense

http://www.internet.is/bret/atkins-2005-parole-transcript.htm

60skid said...

Rich, I far am I am concerned Susan got a break .When they abolished the DP.

Inmate Atkins does admit responsibility and she offers what appears to be credible expressions of insight and remorse. Complete assurance of her acceptance of responsibility, insight and remorse will probably always be clouded somewhat by the factual disputes that stem from her earlier versions of the crime

Like the parole board told Susan.. her remorse will always be clouded by factual disputes.

Susan can not tell the truth for nothing .

In 1969 she like to brag ..how she killed.

Today Miss Cry Baby changed her mind cause she wants out.so she will say anything.

I believe if Susan gets out ..you will hear she does some type of crime again .she is that kind.

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Dok said...

I think the crimes committed by these people is what we can't get over. No matter how big or small the part was, the crimes were far too heinous.

Savage, I hear your passion for Susan and for her release, but I don't agree. I think she is where she should be and will continue to be.

Dok said...

Not to sound flip, but blah blah blah with what the law should be/or is. There is theory and there's reality. Ms SA, this bit of reality bites. To bad

Heaven said...

Savage,

I was thinking last night and there is a part of me that does feel sorry for these kids. I don't feel sorry they're in prison, but I feel sorry for the events that put them there. This is going to be kinda long, so bare with me...

Susan was a criminal before she met Manson. Regardless of how "small" her crimes were, they were crimes nonetheless..

Some of these kids came from decent homes, granted, most of them didn't.. I guess I just don't see how they allowed themselves to be dominated by a man like Manson...
He isn't exactly gifted in the looks department...

Manson preached love, oneness, together, family, love of brother... But when the shit hit the fan, he threw these kids to the wolves. Manson didn't know what love really is..

I do agree with Bugliosi, he used these kids. I do believe that Helter Skelter was all in there, not the motive for the crimes, but I believe it was how he brainwashed everyone.

Leslie and Patricia both had potential to be something, but they threw it all away. To me, that's sad.

Leslie went through 3 different attorneys during her trial. If Manson didn't like one of them, he'd make the girls get rid of him...

Leslie was smart, she realized that it was because of Manson that she got screwed out of a fair trial. Although, it was only not fair based on her actions. So she asked for a re-trial.. In the end, she was convicted. It's not as thought she was going to be found innocent. She was there and participated...

Manson didn't care about his defense, so he convinced the girls not to care about theirs either. And they did everything he told them...

I'm rather surprised that they didn't all seek separate trials.. Had they done that, and had Susan just told the truth about her involvement, maybe the charges on her would have only been conspiracy.

But you need to remember that these girls had their day in court, and they blew it.. Susan, at the trial, was still bragging about how she stabbed Sharon Tate..

How was the jury to know she didn't, she was telling everyone she did. Some of those people testified to the things Susan told them. It wasn't until years later that Susan began changing her story, and it's been changing ever since.... How can anyone really believe anything she says...

I see Susan now and I don't feel sorry for her situation. I was too young when the murders happened to remember the events, but I did find all the newspapers in my parents attic.. I read every single one of them..

Susan portrayed herself as an evil monster, and she portrayed it well. The prosecution isn't the reason she didn't get a fair trial.. She is...

Patricia is the only one I truly feel sorry for, I believe she is the only one who has true remorse for her actions. Unlike Susan, Patricia knows that saying she has remorse will never buy her ticket to freedom. She accepts her punishment..

I understand why you feel the way you do about Susan, even Doris Tate said Susan was a very convincing actress, I believe she's still acting today...

I realize that time changes everyone. 37 years is a very long time to sit and mull over the things you've done and the mistakes you made. But the mistakes are Susan's, not ours.

I personally think that the parole board is just in their decisions not to release her. They get hundreds and hundreds of letters from members of society asking them not to release her. They have weeping and sobbing family members begging them not to let her out...

Life I've said before, Susan is living with her choices. She had the chance to step up and tell the truth, but chose not too. So why should I or anyone, feel sorry for her?

Anyway, I just thought I'd take the time and explain why I feel the way I do... Sorry it was so long winded lol

=)

Satori said...

Two separate posters said: I don't believe Charlie controlled ANYONE

The Col is right . . . the more you dig the more you think. I am starting to think Charlie never controlled anyone my self.


Being new to this MB, I don't know what the positions of most of the people here are on certain aspects of the case.

I would love to hear a further explanation as to why anyone would think that Manson never controlled anyone.

For the record: I have always believed that Manson did control certain members of his group, but I am only basing that on the reading sources that I have in my possession and the few documentary films that I have seen.

Your thoughts on this will be much appreciated.

60skid said...
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60skid said...

Savage,
Why is it ..you never think the parole board is picking on Patricia & Tex.If Susan done enought time.so have Pat & Tex.

Just so everyone understands me ..I am not for them getting out..but hey if Susan walks so should they. If we go by The Savage system.

I will always believe Susan stabbed Sharon Tate.. why because she told everyone ..she had contact with she did it. Now the story has changed.. she did nothing . Mrs Tate also believed Susan did it.
The next time you visit Susan.. explain to her.. Most of the public would like the real story.
Maybe if she started to own up to her part..people would have more feeling for her.

You say her husband helped her. But Savage I do not know anything about Atty Whitehouse..he could be a good man.

But what kind of marriage does Susan & him have ? It is not a real marriage. She not there for him in good times and bad times. She has no idea what a real marriage is..she has been locked up 37 years.
I am one of those people who sends letters to keep her locked up.

Why because she never stops with the acting.

Like heaven says look at Patricia..she does not rub people like Susan..she also has not played the born again game or the get married game.

If you talk to a total stranger.. most of time if the name Susan Adkins comes up.. they say yes she stabbed & killed Sharon Tate ..why do they say that ? Because that is what she said ..over and over.

4Sharon said...

I personally think, anyone that participates or is involved in such a heinous crime such as they committed, should NEVER get parole. It doesn't matter how long ago it was, or the extent to which they participated, I feel they should be in prison for life.
Furthermore, I have said again and again, if Susan truly was sorry for her actions and really is a Christian now, she would not be fighting this. She would "be content where planted" - bloom where planted. Accept it as MERCY that she was given such a LIGHT sentence of LIFE, rather than death.

4Sharon said...

I agree Dr. EVERYONE has an inherent sense of right and wrong, no matter what. That inner instinct that what you are doing is wrong.

Dok said...

Heaven remarkable post! I agree with everything you said.

Satori, I am not as well versed on this subject as others, but I will give you my opinion, because you asked for members opinion. Ok, with all of the drugs being used by the family I feel it left them open to ideas and left proper judgement by the wayside. I believe they were brainwashed to an extent. That extent being outside society was the "Piggies" and piggies were bad. That is the extent of the control.

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Heaven said...

Savage,

I agree with most of your last post..

But I see things a bit differently. Yes Susan had a very difficult life, yes she was molested.. Yes, she didn't have a mother when she needed one...

But ya know what, every one of those same exact things also apply to me. I had a horrible childhood, me and my brothers were beaten, and abused in every way possible..
I never had a mother at all. I was also molested by my brother, I was only 3 years old when it began, he was 13...

But, the difference between Susan and I is, I didn't let these bad things control my life.

I too feel in with a "bad crowd".. And I could have gone into a life of crime, but I didn't... It's a choice... I made a choice to be better than my past. To rise above it and try to live a decent life...
But it's not just me, lots of abused and neglected children go on to lead productive lives.

Susan decided on a different route. She chose her path..

Now I agree that Manson pulled the stings, that I'll give ya 100%.. BUT, these kids allowed their strings to be pulled. Manson didn't take them from themselves, they gave themselves to him.. Why I'll never know.. But they did..

There were no bars around the ranch, people came and went all the time.. Even Tex and Linda got out right after the murders.

Susan didn't fear Manson, she loved him. She assumed he loved her back.. But Manson doesn't know how to love. All he knows is hate, rage and destruction.

Like I said in my earlier post, Susan went and told anyone who'd listen that she personally stabbed Sharon Tate, as Sharon begged out for the life of her baby. Susan even bragged, saying how Sharon sounded like an IBM machine, that she got sick of listening to it and stabbed her. That she climaxed as Sharon screamed, that she tasted Sharon's blood..

That makes Susan sound like a heartless, unfeeling, horrible monster.

Now, think about the jury hearing that. The jury didn't know it wasn't true.. If I had been on that jury and heard all that, I would have convicted her too.

She had a chance to say it wasn't true during the sentencing, but she kept right on with it...

Hard life or not, she hung herself.. And now, because her story has changed so much, no one believes a word she says.

Susan did this to herself, for whatever reasons she had, this was by her own mouth.

Now because Susan said she didn't kill anyone, we're supposed to believe her?

She should have told that story when people were still listening...

Sometimes locking people up is the biggest favor you can do for them. Susan's life behind bars has been 1000 times more productive than what it was on the outside. Least in prison she can do something good with the life God gave her...

Deserves parole? That's only a matter of opinion and you are most welcome to yours...

=)

Heaven said...

60skid,

I write to the parole board too. I don't bother writing for Manson's hearings.. He's never getting out anyway..

I really don't think that Susan will get out anyway, but I still write them..

Some people think Leslie will get out, but I don't believe that either.. Now that Leno and Rosemary's relatives are going, I don't see Leslie going anywhere...

But I would like to see Bobby paroled. I never used to feel that way, but since I've been reading more about his case, I feel if anyone deserves it, he does...

=)

Jane Doe said...

"If we're letting people get parole who are far more dangerous than a 57 year old Susan Atkins, i really don't see anything wrong with giving this girl a parole date."

At 57, Atkins is no longer a girl.

It's interesting how this discussion keeps going back to her.

Heaven said...

Susan wasn't even a girl when she was part of the murders. She was 21, a grown woman...

=)

60skid said...
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60skid said...

Heaven,
But I would like to see Bobby paroled. I never used to feel that way, but since I've been reading more about his case, I feel if anyone deserves it, he does...

I never felt Bobby should get out either.but since coming to this blog and going back reading over stuff. And thinking ..Like the Col says. I now feel Bobby should get parole also.
I agree I do not think Manson will ever get out ethier.

I think also what hurt Leslie was the ex con ex husband ..with the stolen women's prison guard uniform in his possession.

Stephen Kay was for her parole before the ex husband did that. Also The La Bianca"s going to the parole hearings...hurts Leslie.

I also want to say heaven you are a role model for women who have suffered abuses .. you made something of you life.

Heaven said...

Thank you 60skid, that is very sweet of you to say....

I don't know how much I actually made of it...
I had dreams of becoming a lawyer, but I became a mom and devoted my life to them...

I'll just be so thankful when these awful teenage years are behind me LOL

But I am thankful I never took the criminal road. I'm glad that I'm here to have a family. Susan could have had that too, if she'd made better choices...

=)

Deb B said...

What do folks think about Susan's reply to questions at her '85 parole hearing if the Hinman murder was a drug burn (the transcript is the most recent posting at Brett's site)? She says she didn't hear Bobby say one word indicating a drug burn.

One of them is lying. Why would she lie about that? Is it possible that not one word was said about a drug burn, money, motorcylce gang pissed off?

Dok said...

Heaven, Raising a family is the greatest thing a person can do and it will be the most important thing you will do. You are young and you can still become a Lawyer, if you really want it.

Over coming adverse situations as a child is a major accomplishment. Susan had the same choices and she consistantly made bad choices. She could have made other choices. There are always more than one choice to any situation.

Heaven said...

IF she's telling the truth (and that's a huge if) maybe she didn't know bout any drug burn...

Most sources say (if you believe them) that Manson thought Gary came into a big chunk of change, and he wanted it... They say that they tortured Gary trying to get him to give up the money.. Bobby called Manson and told him that if he had any money, he'd have given it up by now...

Gary had actually been good to the members of the family... I honestly don't think Bobby wanted to kill him...

So, either Susan's lying or she wasn't aware of a drug burn...

Dok said...

Maybe I over used the word choice in my last post LOL.

60skid said...

Deb B
I just read that parole hearing too . Yes one is lying. You know who my guess is.
I have also read Susan was the real killer of Hidman or she told a cell mate she was.
In her last parole hearing ..she kept correcting how you said BeauSoleil. it seem to be important to her you said his name right.
Why does Susan lie about everything .Why would you tell everyone you killed people .then 30 years later change your story.
Because you want parole.

60skid said...

Dr.
You post was right and I agree about raising a family. that is the No 1 thing you can do if you have children .

Heaven said...

60skid,

You got it, because she wants parole...

=)

Salem said...

Gary had actually been good to the members of the family... I honestly don't think Bobby wanted to kill him...

yes
Some of the people at the ranch lived with Hinman.. He was friends and a drug source.

Salem said...

If Susan feels she's being held longer than she should or that she didn't get a fair trial, how come she isn't asking for a new one...

ummmmm
She did ask, she even went on the premise of being a political prisoner. lol.

Heaven said...

Salem,

I understand that...

I used a wrong choice of words...

Susan had her day in court, a chance to tell the truth and she decided not too.

Heaven said...

I keep meaning to point something out but I keep forgetting...

Susan didn't start recanting her story until 1991... She had already been in prison 22 years...

I wonder if the 22 years had anything to do with her changing her story. Cause we sure know it wasn't her becoming a Christian that did it....

What Susan was suing Gov Davis was that he was opposing parole for all murderers.. She asked for 1 million in damages. Her case was thrown out..

But, I don't recall her ever asking for a new trial...

Dok said...

I think Linda Kassabian made me say "choice" too many times!!

Heaven said...

Damn that Linda, she's such a trouble maker lol

=)

60skid said...

Does any one think maybe Susan is trying to play the lead roll in The Linda Kassabian story ?
It worked for Linda so try it 22
years later for your self

Dr I know Linda made you say choice.
Linda is the reason I can not feel sorry for Susan.
If you have a problem safe bet Linda caused it.

60skid said...

Salem , I love your picture.

Heaven I believe it is Linda fault you are not a lawyer yet LOL

Heaven said...

My take on the whole Linda story is that was Manson's thing... I think he told the girls to try and pin it on Linda to take the blame off him..

He had these girls so wrapped, they did everything he told them to do..

If I remember correctly, Manson used to meet with the girls and tell them what he wanted done.. He told them that he had to get out of prison so he could continue working on "helter skelter".. So, they concocted the whole "Linda did it all" thing, so save their beloved leader...

That's what I say Manson threw these kids away. He was playing the saving-my-own-ass game...

That's what also surprises me about Lynette and Sandra... Why would they still care about a man who only loved himself..

In 37 years, what could he possibly have done for Lynette and Sandra to keep them so devoted?

In another point... Why are murderers on trial allowed to meet with one another in closed sessions? Had these girls been kept away from Manson during the trial, some of the outcomes might have been different...

I remember Leslie being offended that Manson still denies his involvement, even to this day.

I believe Patricia. Nothing was ever done without the expressed permission of Manson.

Heaven said...

UGH... Prooofreading is fundamental lol

agnostic monk said...

If justice reached as far as it should, all the Family girls who got on the stand and tried to pin it on Linda Kasabian should have faced charges themselves. I don't know what the statute of limitations is on perjury but even Gypsy now admits all that blame Linda crap was a LIE to save Manson.

Around the time Susan Atkins recanted and there was talk in the air of Linda receiving an immunity deal, Gypsy was insinuating herself into the daily meetings between Linda and her attorney Gary Fleishman while Linda was in jail. Gypsy was trying to convince Linda to lie, say she never went out those nights, that she was back at the waterfall with Gypsy. "I'll back you up," Gypsy told her. She also told her that if she didn't, there would be hell to pay. This was all in the presence of Gary Fleishman, who eventually refused to allow Gypsy to attend the meetings with his client.

Then came the death threats. Strange cryptic letters passed from Sandra Good and from Manson to Linda (all of which she handed over to Bug). Then came the "Linda did it" bullshit.

And people wonder why Linda Kasabian has had a troubled post-trial life.

nellieoleson said...

linda was no innocent little hippy chick liked the bug made her look like
linda knew what she was doing

Heaven said...

Monk,

I'll be honest with you... Linda had a lot of balls to testify against these people. I'm rather surprised she even survived the trial.

It's said that Gypsy is writing a book... Seems she's been writing it now for quite a few years...

I wish Patricia would put out a book. I'll bet it would be the most truthful version printed...

PS.. I sent you an email last night... Didga get it?

=)

agnostic monk said...

nellie I never said Linda was an angel. but there was a huge contrast between her and the others, which can be summed up in one word; remorse. Bugliosi never called her an angel either, he called her a strange girl with a sad fatalism who would never be the same.

I believe her remorse and feelings of guilt for ever being involved in this thing was 100% genuine, and that remorse ruined her life and had a devasating effect on the lives of her children.

agnostic monk said...

hi heaven yes I got your email, I plan on responding asap. I agree with you about Patricia. I think she would be very truthful. She was a tiny bit evasive with Diane Sawyer (I have a hard time believing that she really doesn't remember exactly the words she wrote in Leno's blood. Sawyer had to repeat them back to her. How could you forget something like that?)

But I'd imagine in the ensuing years there must be some kind of defense mechanism at work in her psychology. How could there not? She wrote in the man's blood!

It is definitely interesting to me that Patricia A) has owned up B) knows it's not getting her out, and C) hasn't played the Born Again game.

I also would love to read Gypsy's book. I'd also like for Sandra Good to finally explain why she thinks it was A-OK what her friends did back in 1969. I've never heard a satisfactory response beyond her usual third-grade rationalizations.

Basically, I'd like to talk to all of these people and see where they are in their heads these days.

Heaven said...

Patricia should remember, she doodled "Healter Skelter" while she was sitting at the trial.. Mis spelling and all...

Maybe she's trying to block it out now... I feel the most sorry for her.. They say Leslie was the most likely to be led by Manson. I greatly disagree. I think it would have been Patricia...

Leslie was beautiful, and she knew it.. She'd been told all her life... Patricia was at the shallow end of the gene pool...

All the men wanted to have sex with Leslie, that's why Manson moved her to the front lines, to entice men to join the family. No one but Manson would have sex with Patricia...

Being young had nothing to do with it, there's only two years difference between Leslie and Patricia.. If age was the reason people killed for Manson, then Diane Lake would have been there. She was the youngest of them all...

60skid said...

I agree with Heaven ..Patricia was one of the ones most led by Charlie.
She was not very good looking and had that hair all over her body.
She left her job.. her car and
last paycheck to join with Manson

He used her looks to control her. In some ways I think her looks are still working againist her today.

People still think of Leslie as cute and lots of people think Susan was cute. Both women still play that up to this day.

Patricia does admit doing the murders ..unlike Leslie and now Susan.

I think Patricia is a reserved women ..and is remorseful.
She never married or played Born Again to help her get parole.

Heaven said...

Audio,

I completely agree with you. What Patricia did was terrible and I don't advocate for her parole.

I will NEVER be on the side of the killers and forget the victims. It saddens me to see so many people here and elsewhere rally for the release of these people.

It's almost as though they care more about the injustices they feel are being done towards the killers than the horrible slaughter of the victims...

I personally hope they keep Susan locked up until the day she dies.

For 22 years she carried her story on how much she enjoyed killing Sharon... I hope her "lies" were worth it...

Heaven said...

60skid,

I agree with you too...

Did you happen to see one of the TV specials that had Manson looking at a television interview with Patricia, some 30 + years after the crime...

The person talking to him asked what he thought and he replied "she got old on me"..

Does Manson think he's young? He's aged worse than any of them.. But being 10 to 15 years older then them, he would...

Heaven said...

Ya know, if we give Susan a few more years, I betcha she'll say that none of them were ever there and the victims all committed suicide.

nellieoleson said...

explain this in mexico there is a pro wresler named charly manson doing a manson gimmick, why is mexican wrestling makeing a big deal about charlie
http://www.thecubsfan.com/lucha/index.php?title=Charly_Manson

60skid said...

Heaven ,
It's almost as though they care more about the injustices they feel are being done towards the killers than the horrible slaughter of the victims.

I was thinking the same thing. I notice not too many want to see Tex or Patricia get out.
I always feel every one defends Leslie amd Susan on their looks. Not to many people complain for Patricia.
I read a interview that Patricia & Leslie are still friends ..but neither one wants any thing to do with Susan.. Wonder WHY ? LOL

Yes I seen where Manson said Patricia got old on him ..I thought .. yea look at you.

Ya know, if we give Susan a few more years, I betcha she'll say that none of them were ever there and the victims all committed suicide.

Yes your right .. she will try that one next.


People get so mad at me ..because I want to see the killers stay locked up.

How any one buys all of Susan ..ever changing stories and lie's .I will never understand.

agnostic monk said...

LOL, Heaven, that was Diane Sawyer that Manson made the "she got old on me" comment to regarding Patricia Krenwinkle. Sawyer was showing him clips of her interviews with the Pat and Leslie.

He also said in that same interview, when she confornted him with the women's claims that he used them as semi-prostitutes to lure men into the group, "Isn't that what women's for?"

I could almost feel Diane Sawyer having to restrain herself from reaching out and smacking the shit out of the little demented elf.

Heaven said...

LOL!! Elf LOL

I like that lol

Yes, thank you. I couldn't remember who was doing the interview. I have it on VHS, but haven't watched it in a while....

60skid said...

He also said in that same interview, when she confornted him with the women's claims that he used them as semi-prostitutes to lure men into the group, "Isn't that what women's for?"

I could almost feel Diane Sawyer having to restrain herself from reaching out and smacking the shit out of the little demented elf.I


I wish Diane would have smacked the shit out of elf boy .. TV highlight for ever.

I like the new nick name Elf Boy

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Heaven said...

if there were lots of guys having sex with her, how is it that she managed not to get pregnant?

Divine Intervention perhaps...

Savage, not all the girls had babies, There were only 3 born during the "family" days...

Thankfully, pregnancies just weren't happening.

Heaven said...
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Heaven said...

This is why i find it within myself not to be so unforgiving of Susan. Manson used these girls and he prayed on their fears.

I agree with you completely that he used them. But, they allowed themselves to be used.

Some people didn't want to be controlled by him and they left...
Susan had the same option.

Go read some of her parole hearings, especially the ones from the 80's.. Ya know, before she began recanting her story.

She stayed because she enjoyed the lifestyle. Being degraded didn't seem to offend her.

60skid said...

Savage,
You can tell me over and over, how good Susan. But I am not buying it.
She was so controled by Manson .. you say..The family diet was all Vegetarian .. Susan would sneak away and go have a steak.If she was so under Manson spell .she would have never done that.

Like the col says in a earlier blog. All of them blame Charlie.No one of them blames their self.

You say Susan was Brianwashed .. Well now I am brianwashed ..22 years of hearing Susan tell the world she did it.I now believe it.
Just once before I die..I want to hear the true story.. from Susan.

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nellieoleson said...

there is a pro wresler named charly manson
http://www.thecubsfan.com/lucha/index.php?title=Charly_Manson

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Heaven said...

Savage,

Go back and read the 10 million books on this case...

Sandy, Mary and Susan were the only girls to give birth during the the time family was together..

Kitty had her baby after the arrests, Linda had her baby during the trial, Ruth Ann had her baby after the arrests..

Giving birth after the trials is not while the family was together. By that time the family was scattered everywhere.

Linda came to the family already pregnant. The father was her husband Robert. She gave birth to her son in March. She she got pregnant in June 1969, she didn't arrive to the ranch until July.. She was already pregnant and has said the father was her husband. Go look it up. It's only in all those 10 million books lol

There were only 3 children born while the family was together.

Heaven said...

Yes Savage,

Manson has fathered every child on this planet.. And Linda is the case of all death and destruction everywhere lol

Oh, and your thing about Linda telling Manson she didn't know who the father was.. That was in the Helter Skelter TV remake, that was so inaccurate it was almost funny. Don't use that stupid pathetic movie as your basis for facts..

If you thought Bugliosi's book was bad, his TV remake was even worse.

Heaven said...

Lets clear something else up..

Kitty did not get pregnant during her stay with the family. She was never really even a member of the family. She was just Bobbys girlfriend. Manson didn't like her and he didn't trust her. Bobby wasn't a member either, some people think he was, but he wasn't.. If you doubt me, ask Col Scott.

Kitty was just part of the package deal... Most of the girls didn't care for Kitty either. They were probably jealous cause Bobby was HOT!

Leslie was one of Bobby's girls, that's how she met Manson, through Bobby.. So.. that clears up Kitty..

Now Ouiche, Ruth Ann didn't have any children while the family was together (before the murders, before the arrests). She didn't get pregnant until April 1970, gave birth in December 1970. The killers were in prison and other family members were scattered. The baby you see her holding in the picture, wasn't hers.

The Manson family trial began June 15th 1970

The Hoyt/Hawaii/LSD thing happened in September 9 1970. She was pregnant yes, but it didn't happened until 4 months after the arrests... So I'm pretty sure Manson didn't father that one...

=)

60skid said...

Savage,

If you thought Bugliosi's book was bad, his TV remake was even worse.

Yes you agree the Bug book was made up ..and his TV Remake was a joke.

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Heaven said...

I think Bugliosi took the path of least resistance when it came to his case against the killers..

He had all these people giving him the Helter Skelter motive, so he took it and went...

The second Helter Skelter movie was terrible.. Totally inaccurate.. Manson whispered every time he talked.. Even the costumes were bogus...

After being stabbed 16 times, some directly to the heart, I highly doubt Sharon shared any words with Susan before she died. I think Sharon was already dead, or damn close, when Tex gave her 8 more stab wounds to the back...

The movie was more of a fairytale than the book..

Heaven said...

Savage,

For someone who says he knows so much about this case, you don't seem to know even simple facts...

Ruth Ann gave birth in December 1970, so please don't tell me she was pregnant for more than a year...

She was "with the group".... the handful that remained.. They spend their days out on the sidewalk outside the courthouse. But the family had already began to fall apart.

The baby was not concieved nor born during the time the whole family was together.

Again, only 3 babies were actually born to the family...

Go look it up...

Heaven said...

Also, how is that that Tex was able to give Kristin 4 kids but couldn't get one done when free love was the order of the day at Spahn?

Don't know, don't care...

For all we know, Kristin sought help elsewhere.. I doubt it, but anythings possible...

Heaven said...

Susan had a baby.. ZezoZose Zadfrack or whatever ta hell his name was

Mary had Manson's son Pooh Bear

Sandy had Sunstone Hawk.. Does he still go by that name?

It's actually a really nice name.. Better than the one Manson gave Susan's kid...

During the days of the family, there was a total of 8 children at the ranch.. Dennis Rice had 4, Sandy's son, Linda's daughter Tanya, Susan's son, Pooh Bear..

That's all there was, there wasn't anymore

=)

60skid said...

Savage, Susan claims her baby was from a non family member.

Heaven said...

Susan says she got pregnant before she even met Manson.. I think the guys name was Bob or Robert..

She said that Manson was upset that he wasn't the father...

She also says she was the second woman to give birth during the days with the family

Heaven said...

Savage,

I have seen many other people ask why more babies weren't born to the family, even Bugliosi wondered..

No one knows why... That's why I said divine intervention perhaps..

Could have been all the VD too.. No one knows, but I'm glad that more children weren't born into all of that..

Leslie might not have ever been able to make more kids.. Before she met Manson she had had an abortion.. I don't know how safe they were back in the mid 60's... She might have been fine.. I dunno...

=)

4Sharon said...

I think everyone should forget about the "family" and let them sit where they are for life. Just as Sharon and victims have been forgotten and only remembered as "the people that were slain by Manson". Good idea? LOL

Salem said...

satori
For the record: I have always believed that Manson did control certain members of his group, but I am only basing that on the reading sources that I have in my possession and the few documentary films that I have seen.

Your thoughts on this will be much appreciated.


I agree. Manson wasnt at the ranch that much anyways. He was always on the go. What irks me is people say HE kept people there for fear of thier lives. Well they could have left any time they wanted too.
People came and people went. I know people that went to the ranch for a couple of days or weeks, and never were threatened when they left.

Heaven said...

4Sharon,

I think that is an excellent idea...

=)

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