You know I was reading one of the recent articles, maybe one of the ones I posted ( not going to go back and look, doesn't matter) and they referred to Cielo Drive as a HOME INVASION. Now true this was 1969 and I am not sure when I first heard the term but it was more likely than not the 90s so this is retrofitting of course.
But what word do we normally hear after "Home Invasion"? ROBBERY, right? I never heard of a Home Invasion Race War Startup, have you?
It was a robbery or drug deal burn or both. There IS a meaning to it I know there is.
Here's an idea- Tex still has hope, it hasn't been crushed. Let's get Sequiera and tell him to make a deal. Prosecute him for Shorty Shea's murder. Clem and Bruce will gladly throw him under the bus and Orcette Hoyt can misremember shit for her testimony. The charges can stick. Then offer a trade- Bug is a goner soon, tell us what really was the reasoning behind all this. If so we give you a walk on Shorty.
Guy can't live without hope and this sure would crush it.
I'd say the same thing on Davis on Gaul but I don't think he'd do it.
Any takers?
64 comments:
The person to talk to, in my opinion, would be Clem.
Remember him? The only one to be parolled. How nice.
What exactly did Clem give up for his release, besides Shorty's location? Does anyone know for sure what he said?
Tex is liar and he's still using Jesus as a human shield. Cocksucker allowed Susan to absorb all the notoriety that so rightfully belonged to him.
Clem is the guy. That's how i see it. He was on the scene at Nader and he can probably say alot about that.
Find him.
But he's gone man. Gone.
Col,
Are you saying that Clem is dead as in no longer with us? or just went underground again?
We know his alias. If he's alive, he has to be somewhere.
If he's dead, this is the first that i'm hearing of this.
He's gone man- he ain't stopping to chat with nobody.
I get it-
Clem is out and free and will never say another word...
why would he need to??
I like Bruce better than Tex to give us the remaining answers...
I think Bruce may have been more in the know then Tex was about things....
But I totally agree and have said before...
one of those two may be the last chance we ever have to know and more of the REAL truth....
and making a deal to get out may be closer to " acceptable" for Bruce who has already got votes- and was not culpable in TLB cases which really are the ones people are so outraged about publicly anyway..
Says here- Tex might hold the some answers- but is such a spineless gutless man- he probably would have talked by now if he had any inkling it might help...
Bruce might be the best last hope of ever getting any more specifics that make any sense
And it is worth pointing out again...
Clem really wasn't the idiot everyone thought he was ....
which in my opinion- makes him a much scarier cat than anyone ever gave him credit for...
Apparently not "Totally Gone" in the Beat sense of the term, as Sanders reported in agreement with Bugliosi's assessment.
He knows a lot, as do Brenda, Squeaky and Gypsy, and I don't expect any of them to ever tell us about it.
I also believe that Pat Krenwinkel knows some things.
I was referring to the people who aren't in jail... but as long as they are still alive the ones in jail could theoretically solve this thing.
Bobby got arrested first and missed a lot.
Tex of course knows perfectly well what his reasons were and could probably put this baby to rest if he wanted to. But will we ever believe anything he says? He would have to admit he was lying about a lot in order to tell the truth now. Nothing much to lose and nothing much to gain.
Bruce knows just about everything... I don't think anyone except Manson knows everything he himself was up to. I think he gains very little by talking and he could potentially lose a chance for freedom.
I am guessing Pat & Leslie know the least. They may have had their own personal motivations for participating which may not be in accord with Tex's motivations. They may not have direct knowledge, just conclusions drawn from an understanding of how the people in the family system operated in general.
Charlie knows what everyone was up to, and he was at the center of everything. He has probably told us as much as he is willing to in his obscure manner of explaining things. Maybe the passing of certain individuals would make him more free to talk. But honestly, why should he give a shit at this point?
"I also believe that Pat Krenwinkel knows some things."
Like what ? Imo, PK knows nothing except what happened during those two nights.
Charlie didn't even like her too much from what I can gather.
Her main responsibilities were dealing with the children mostly.
I don't see Charlie telling PK any inside that would be useful for why TLB really happened.
PK bought the HS theory and acted upon it. That is all she knows, I believe.
I don't think any of the killers knew or knows why TLB happened.
Brenda/Nancy ? Yes. I do believe Charlie confided in her about certain things. Maybe even took her back to Cielo with him.
I wish she would speak out.
I agree, Brian. Harold True said Katie was as dumb as a bag of rocks, that probably reflects the general consensus. Her special talent seemed to be being the most whacked out on Charlie-ism.
I think we all have come to realize that Susan didn't know much either, at least not much we don't already know.
Home Invasion... I used to think that. Now I think the gang might have been invited in as per the drug deal theory. Knowing how the Cielo house operated I bet the front door wasn't even locked, so why would Tex go through all of this slitting screens and climbing through windows stuff and then go open the door from the inside? You would be damn sure to make some obvious signs of breaking in after the fact if someone ended up dead while you were trying to conduct business.
Home invasion differs from burglary or robbery in having VIOLENT INTENT. So I guess Home invasion is a good phrase to use for these killers as i think they certainly had violent intent!
what if the motive was that simple...
home robbery ( drugs or money at Cielo and money at Waverly)
it would make the motive so simple and actually not even original. They had already done the same thing to Gary, and to an extent Crowe ( hear me out)
they were trying to get money to go to the desert... they ripped off the dealer ( crowe) and when threatened- Charlie let him have it...
they went to Gary's cause they thought he had money to help them get to the desert- when they didn't get what they wanted and they felt threatened ( he would call the cops)
they let him have it...
we all know there are some connections between Charlie and both houses- but we may never prove to what extent they were or through exactly who...
but maybe we cant ever find them because they were very minor and distant???
if the poeple who knew them and spent time with them wouldn't talk about them after the murders....
Can you imagine being the one who comes forward and says to anyone-
" Yeah I knew them, and told them there was this or that at one of the houses cause I heard it from..."
never happen will it?
what if the connection was as simple as that - he heard through the grapevine for whatever reason in both the Cielo and Waverly houses- for whatever reasons in either case- there was money and or drugs in the homes???? maybe he heard all the same rumors we do about what was going down in the house and figured it had to be a jackpot- rich people who party like animals. wouldn't that be enough reason if he was desperate?
he could have sent people to two separate houses- who had no connection to each other- but some parallel distant connection to him- for the same reasons he sent people to Gary's and had Tex rip off Crowe...
for money/drugs
and that is really going to make this boring- but...
its plausible isn't it?
The rest of it is typical young wasted kid mumbo jumbo that grew over the years around the campfire- and Bugs took the ones who would talk and built their stories into legends.... then sanders came along and connected them to every dark person who ever walked in California in the 60"s.
but we know for sure that almost every single one of them were into a few things and STEALING was a major one of them...
So maybe after all the hocus pocus and black magic- their is no dark revealed secret motive...
they heard through some common associates where some money might be- so they went and tried to get it, and they left such a mess the first time- that Charlie wanted to make sure it didn't get that out of control the second time...
wouldn't that be a bitch...
" What did you assholes do up there last night it is all over the news. I told you to get the money, not cut everybody up. you didnt get shit. tonight we try again, and this time I will go with you and show you how its done"....
he tied them up and left thinking - how could they possibly fuck it up again????
but Tex had them take Rosmarie into another room, and she got free and he had to go back and forth again- and we know how he handles that kind of pressure...
The most Evil man alive who is credited for doing all this- would have actually been pissed off that it happened the way it did, and would have actually not wanted it that way....
it would even make some of his gibberish make a little sense...
This not new-
but the more time that passes- the more I am less likely to learn anything which makes me think I can ever learn anything which proves any of the more wackier/darker theories have merit...
this is at least something I can wrap my arms around...
common petty thiefs and crooks
I can believe that because before and after those two nights- it is exactly what 80% of the family really were....
of course the connections to Cielo would have been forged in Laurel Canyon...
made through Mama Cass Elliot....
which is important because it was my original theory and it would make me right :)
I just have a hard time wrapping my mind around it being a simple robbery .... By their accounts, they were able to slip in undetected and could have wiped out half the house without the victims noticing ... but no they left all the valuable stuff (except the Folger money)
They could have kept hidden in the bushes as Parent left ... but Tex jumped out and killed him.
These people were skilled at creepy crawling and ripping people off .... why sneak into a house and then alert everyone they they were there?
The change of clothes they took the first night means more than robbery to me ... creepy crawling/robbing would require they wear the dark clothes when they left the ranch but they brought a change of clothes because they knew they would get bloody.
"Leave a sign ... something witchy" doesnt scream robbery to me
IMO they had violent intent before they got there ... the col is spot on in the Home Invasion wording
but they had a gun...
That's my one hang up...
if they had violent intent why the need for rope??? why the need to split them up and move them all around??
why not just shoot them all right away or attack them when they were split up or in Voyteks case sleeping??
they must have needed them for something....
Maybe when Jay forced a change of plans- that was no longer as important as shutting them all up...
Parent would have had no value-
he also didn't get stabbed 50 or 60 times... he was eliminated quickly...
he sent one guy and three women to hang someone???
is that really what the rope was for??? Clem or Bruce wouldn't have been better for that?
or tie them up and make them watch each other get tortured until the give up what we want??? one guy with a gun would have been enough for that....
again- until Jay changed all that- and then it became a free for all...
still violent intent I guess
But tie them up and scare them or tie them up and rough em up till they give us what we want is different from one or two of them getting free or fighting back and a free for all ensuing...
IF that was what it was, and how it went down...
I am not sold either way- jsut thinking aloud really
Well St Circum ... you just through a wrench in my thought process .... good point
But the Parent thing still bugs me because he was eliminated so quickly BUT he didnt need to be eliminated at all if it was a robbery ... why not just let him drive on by while they were hid in the bushes? Why take the chance of firing the gun outside and alerting others.
I guess violent intent is the case no matter how you slice it and why they were there...
they didn't go over for a joint and a swim not matter how you slice it...
They were going to force their will in some manner no matter how it went down
but violent intent may still have been go get money or drugs at any cost...
which would still be a motive
I think he tried to stab him first a couple of times- but the kid started screaming and he did it to keep those inside the house from hearing him...
it would explain why he both stabbed and shot him...
I guess part of the reason for the interest in the case is because it really doesnt make sense .... But IMO Charly was probably just as shocked as we are that they actually caused that much of a mess ... C probably thought to himself ... Damn those crazy mofockers actually did it .... whoaaaa I AM powerful!
maybe the no connection is the connection robbery/drug burn idea doesn't work either...
but its another thought
Sweet....
I agree with you about that- I think he had no idea it would work out the way it did that first night, and I am still not sure if it made him happy or scared him shitless....
at least at the level to which they took it....
Good point
Parent makes it impossible to argue they didnt' go with violent intent...
unless he saw Tex before Tex had a chance to do anything about it- they could have hid and let him slip out- or unless they were unsure if he saw them or might return?
but whatever the motive actually was- him being in the wrong place at the wrong time was probably what did him in regardless...
They were invited in per the drug deal theory? Invited by whom? Voytek was asleep on the couch and, when awoken, didn't seem to know who they were.
Drug burn/deal or money theft possibly- but drug party?
I never bought that
Still dont...
again- if they were invited- why have to shoot parent at all?
why go in through a window?
among the many other questions it would pose...
nianslid21
If you take the view that it happened as per the trial, with Parent just leaving as the Family was creeping in, then I agree that shows that they went in there with the intent to kill. That is what VB was trying to prove at the trial, and the Susan Atkins story supported that.
I am going with the speculation that that was not the case, that Parent either saw Jay and Sharon being led out of the house at gunpoint, or saw them fighting with Tex and then being killed. He was then killed as he tried to get the hell out of there. This theory allows for the possibility that the intent was not necessarily murder.
Tex, the big liar, has alwayys denied any knowledge of the rope. If they had all of this freaking rope, why tie people up with towels and the like? I am guessing there was no rope until Charlie showed up later.
Oh, and the blood evidence at the scene really seems to support the notion of Jay and Sharon being killed on the front steps, and moved back into the house later. That makes it possible for Parent to have seen something without actually being in the house.
Well while we know that the participants are indeed a pack of liars .... the scenario of Jay and Sharon being killed on the porch and then moved and being seen by Parent presents the problem that all 4 liars would have to agree to not mention this ..... I dont see any reason for them to leave this out
Oh btw ... I have lurked here for a couple of years and have read every post made here and also read all of the Col's required books ... I finally decided to have a voice :)
Welcome Sweetstink. I agree, it has always bothered me about the liars all syncing up... but then I got turned on to the notion that the Susan Atkins confession was like a script that everyone followed... it was fully publicized before the trial even kicked off. The story worked for a number of different players for different reasons, so they all followed it for their own purposes. One of the reasons the killers get. so weird when they recollect (Watson is an excellent example of this) is that they are not really recalling things as they remember them but what they remember saying about what happened.
Welcome Sweetstink.
I have never beleived in the whole moving of the bodies theory. But I do think Charlie and friends did go to Cielo later that night, but I think they were there looking for something, and not so much there to tamper with the crime scene.
The blood map can be explained pretty easily. Think about it, Stabby Tex was in his shining glory stabbing everything that moved or didnt move, and was probably covered in the victims blood. As he is standing or walking by front door, blood would have been dripping off of him in large quantities. Also with his stabby friends. They would have all been blood soaked and dripping blood. Also do not forget about Susan dipping the towel in Sharons blood and writing on the door, this towel would also have been dripping blood. I never understood how this could be part of some unexplained bloodspots with all you Manson super sleuths tearing everything apart and lookin it over with a fine tooth comb, you missed the obvious in favor of unproved theories. There were blood spots, not streaks, and not large pools of blood not belonging to Voytek at the door area. It was spots here and there of Sharon and Jays blood. Could have been the inept LA police messing up the crime scene too, they didnt appear to be very good at their jobs back in the 60s
Welcome SweetStink :)
Hello Marliese!!
IF it was a robbery and Jay messed up the plan by fighting back- and then things went haywire...
Charlie may have went back looking for the intended booty??
again - and especially if they actually did go back ( not sure here) hard to explain leaving all the drugs if it were a drug thing...
So if it wasn't for revenge or Money- H/S makes as much sense as anything else...
and I have never believed in that
Jesse, I hear what you are saying. I'm no supersleuth with blood evidence, but I always wondered how the shrubbery got covered with splatters (not stains, pools or drops) of Jay and Sharons blood. The theory that they were killed on the porch near the door is more consistent with that evidence than the theory that the killers tracked their blood (how would it splatter? how did it get in the shrubs?) Same for the moving of the bodies from inside to outside to back in again.
The police reports had all of this, but Susan Atkins "confession" superseded all rational analysis of the evidence. I have seen, and been critical of some of the over analyzing that you are referring to, but I think that when you compare Susan's story with the evidence there are a lot of troubling inconsistencies for reasonable people to ponder.
I have never beleived in the whole moving of the bodies theory. But I do think Charlie and friends did go to Cielo later that night, but I think they were there looking for something, and not so much there to tamper with the crime scene.
this makes you different from the rest of us Super sleuths how???
lol :)
We are all in this boat together...
I dont have any theories of my own which are better than anyone else'...
but I still haven't heard any other theories which are better than my own either lol
we can all go over and over with a fine tooth comb...
we will probably never know...
but we will probably also keep trying....
as long as that o.k. with you???
So many people come here to participate and make this so much better for all of us...
So many others come with insults and sarcasm, and looking to make themselves look better at the expense of others...
let your own points, wit, and intellect make the case of who you are...
trying to prove yourself by attacking others is easy and cheap...
its easy to point out problems, and where others are wrong...
the tougher part is to put yourself out there and to show what may be right....
their are quite a few out there who do just that...
and a few others who seem to exist solely to make my ass itch..
But like always - I'll scratch it and move on :)
Im really tired of people who get there panties wadded up because someone else questions what was said. Next thing you know they will throw a tantrum like a little child and leave the discussion for awhile, BTW, St C, super sleuth was meant as compliment,it wasnt directed to you. Excuse me if I dont talk in a way that fits into your neat little idea of how things should be.
Now to continue, Blipcrotch, taking into acount that splatters, and say they were killed on the front porch, in the crime scene pics there is a large amount of pooled blood in living rooom by Sharon and Jay, how long would a body bleed after being killed? Also as I imagine it, Tex and friends would have been saturated in the victims blood, couldnt the blood splatters still have come from the killers as they moved about wildly?
Didnt Tex do some cutting on Voytex while on the front porch? Would his arm violently stabbing account for 'blood splatters' if he is drenched in blood? If the bodies were moved wouldnt there have been a trail of blood from one spot to the other making it a obvious conclusion? Thanks for your comments Blip,ya gave me lots to ponder, I am just to unsure about the blood map.
And hello to you, St. C! I'm so glad you're here. :)
ST. Circumstance said...>>>>
I have never beleived in the whole moving of the bodies theory. But I do think Charlie and friends did go to Cielo later that night, but I think they were there looking for something, and not so much there to tamper with the crime scene.<<<<<
St. Circumstance, i never wanted to believe the bodies had been moved...the thought is so horrifying, until i saw the blood map. There is a lot of blood on the porch...Jay's and Sharon's.
Sharon's blood is pooled over the threshold on the left side, and again in a larger pool just outside of the threshold on the floor of the porch, with spatters on the door jam and splattered again on the stone wall of the house behind the pool of her blood on the outside left of the door.
Jay's blood is pooled on the right side, splattered behind it as well, and the bushes at the right side of the porch, at the pool of Jay's blood, are crushed...
Something happened on the porch...
Actually Marliese...
I didn't say that lol
Something did happen on the porch though- I agree...
according to a few of their own stories...
Tex ran in and out.... he was all over the place. He was in a panic and he was full of adrenaline and half out of his mind....
I am sure he caught up with a couple of them at a few places and tried to keep them quiet and from moving any longer... and he went around one last time at the end to make sure they were all done- which means to me they put up quite a struggle during the interim, and we know that a couple of them got out of the room, so who knows for sure exactly where any of them were at any given time Tex got back and forth between them????
aside from him being the devil or out to start a race war- that would also explain all the blood and stab wounds..
Actually Marliese...
I didn't say that lol
Something did happen on the porch though- I agree...
according to a few of their own stories...
Tex ran in and out.... he was all over the place. He was in a panic and he was full of adrenaline and half out of his mind....
I am sure he caught up with a couple of them at a few places and tried to keep them quiet and from moving any longer... and he went around one last time at the end to make sure they were all done- which means to me they put up quite a struggle during the interim, and we know that a couple of them got out of the room, so who knows for sure exactly where any of them were at any given time Tex got back and forth between them????
aside from him being the devil or out to start a race war- that would also explain all the blood and stab wounds..
double vision- or is that just me? lol
By the way Jesse...
I am sure you are a fine person...
also - i have been getting wasted since very early today...
so excuse me if i misunderstood your post...
" I never understood how this could be part of some unexplained bloodspots with all you Manson super sleuths tearing everything apart and lookin it over with a fine tooth comb, you missed the obvious in favor of unproved theories"
I guess I am too wasted to get this was a compliment to me or anyone...
Sorry :)
Tardville breaks out of the razor wire fence again. C'mon Lynyrd, put a better lock on the gate.
Not to add any gas to said fire but... that (Katie) is the reason I can't read that blog any longer. She comments almost maniacally, over and over & over. Too much to sift through and buries any descent commenters they have left. Plus, it gets more and more insane as the night wears on and the drunks get drunker.
Katie, someone once said that you lead with your chin. I agree.
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURP
ohhhh
sorry
Drunk driving on my way to the Florida keys....
Katie keep leaning with that chin and Ill do the same....
when we aren't spouting these sites sit quiet
because half the people have no ideas of there own...
and the other half are too afraid of the assholes to put them out there.
So a few of us with real ideas and thoughts ( right or wrong) continue to serve as the one and only chance some people have to make themselves sound witty...
It is so easy to second guess another - or point out flaws...
but the balls and nerve to venture your own personal thoughts- well that would require real courage and maybe even some trace of intelligence...
Katie has those things... you should all be so lucky
Did you happen to notice what she caught?? actually was able to pinpoint and bring out for us to ponder???
if you cant admit that was impressive- your not being real...
and I have been on many sites for many years, and love quite a few of them- but that was as good a find of information as I have seen anywhere...
Maybe some of you should start drinking more???
anyway- you can play with yourselves for a few days...
call me what you will...
blah blah blah...
but Katie did good and thats the fact Jack!
In the words of The late Rodney King "can't we all just get along?".......all this bitterness, insults, and bullshit is so juvenile. If some of you don't like lynyrd's blog then don't go there. Same thing goes for those that don't like patty or Matt or Liz....personally I enjoy both sites and the Col's blog, but all this verbal masterbation is starting to get annoying. Let's get back to our quest for the truth
I hear that
What happened on those two nights in August 1969?
what in the world would make people do things like that???
Sigh
Such a great time and place. so much excitement and possibility. To live that life. To hang around and party and travel with those people. The music, the times, the sights and sounds of southern California in the 60:s . Like Christmas morning every single day. That type of joy to wake up each morning...
to have it taken in that manner, and to have to see the way the people responsible mocked and joked about the entire tragedy...
the brightest of colors in the sunniest days over the bluest skies... sitting across from the absolute blackness and emptiness waiting on the horizon
until they merged
why???
Here is hoping you all find your way back to the place where we used to work together trying to figure this out
So I retire from the Manson blog and many of you will think..good riddance
but for the few who matter:
I leave this world the way I came in- on Col's blog.
but here is a final message for Col. Liz/Matt/Patty Brain Davis Katt T/L and everyone one else....
this isnt about any of you
if the dozen or so of you wanted to sit around and argue among yourself- no need for all of this...
you all spent the time and effort to make sites. you must want to have members???
IF ALL OF YOU KEEP SCARING THE SHIT OUT OF PEOPLE- who is going to do anything other than sit on the outside and read??
Dont you want to encourage participation?
Isn't that the goal???
go back and look at the last few weeks...
Who the hell is going to want to get in the middle of all of this bullshit???
peoples personal information and their family life on the internet for adding an offending comment fto a blog??
maybe this isnt unusual- this is the only subject I have gotten involved in the internet with...
but it is unusual and scary to me...
and I bet a few others at least...
let that be my final word and legacy here...
Col I dont care who you really are and neither should anyone else
I have managed to have a fine time trying to solve this case for years anyway...
I also never found your missing house painter when I was in L.A....
I hope you'll forgive me my shortcomings..
I wanna thank you-
for a real good time!!
MLK?, JFK?, there has never been an orator like St. and we know he can afford the time and money to build his own memorial statue.
Saint
You said a mouthful and you said it well.
There is a bit of cognitive dissonance going on as you point out. Blogs want you to read 'em, participate, and engage. That is until you disagree with 'em. Then it is time to rip and reveal.
Although there is no formal standard of ethics for blog or website owners, those websites that engage in it eventually founder and die.
Best of luck Saint, and I hope to see you around.
PS Uncle Gilley, if you are out there give me a head nod some day.
Incredible Saint Circumstance! Very well said. I wish you well.
wait, i missed a lot, but is there some new information
St C. said "Did you happen to notice what she caught?? actually was able to pinpoint and bring out for us to ponder???
if you cant admit that was impressive- your not being real...
and I have been on many sites for many years, and love quite a few of them- but that was as good a find of information as I have seen anywhere..."
what did I miss?
Thank you...
St C, I hope you're enjoying yourself in some exotic place somewhere, and hope you'll come back one day...even if it's just to check in and say hi and let us know what's up. I get why you needed to leave...at one time or another, i think most of us have thrown our hands up in disgust, so i do understand, but I selfishly want you back with the perspective only you can put together.
I will always miss you on the blogs.
Best,
Marliese
johnnyseattle said...
Saint
You said a mouthful and you said it well.
Johnnyseattle said>>>>>>>There is a bit of cognitive dissonance going on as you point out. Blogs want you to read 'em, participate, and engage. That is until you disagree with 'em. Then it is time to rip and reveal.
Although there is no formal standard of ethics for blog or website owners, those websites that engage in it eventually founder and die.<<<<<<
Talk about saying it well! You're always spot on...
Rather than micro managing and arbitrarily approving and removing posts, or the 'rip and reveal' stuff...and I don't mean a funny pic of a fat slob stuffing her face with cookies, but the dangerous, gone too far scary stuff...i wish the powers that be for some of the blogs would put up the standard disclaimer...
"The blog invites comments, but please don't assume the blog endorses or agrees with any remark because it's allowed to stand."
Simple, right?
And might help with the frustration level...of everyone... blog owners, and readers and commenters too.
It's a sad thing though that someone like St. C...a friend to so many, throws up his hands and says i'm done.
Post a Comment