July 4, 1969
Kasabian meets Gypsy and Tex.
Tex gives Kasabian a super orgasm which he calls ego death.
Linda tells Tex about Melton and his $5k.
She agrees to steal it and does on the 5th.
Charlie approves of Linda's legs.
Linda moves in with Tex.
(Of course we have only the self serving, Bug designed testimony for a true timeline. But even from day one Linda feels more like TEX'S Girl. Seems more likely that Tex wanted her there not Charlie. And you can scream you didn't know what was going to happen all you fucking like, a definite clue was Tex climbing up the phone pole. An incontrovertible clue is Tex shooting and slashing Parent. I mean at that point, self delusion or not I am running down Cielo Drive as fast as I can. Not Linda.)
Independence Day for Linda from her husband and Happy Day to all of us!
39 comments:
Bro make any comment you want.
Sadie and Pat were never offered a walk.
That's right, and not only didn't she run and scream out of there, she got back in the car and went along for part two the next night...knowing exactly what was going to happen. And a few days later when she finally did leave, she left her child with those freaked out maniac killers.
Excellent Post Colonel - I highly approve.
Yes, it was certainly was independence day for Linda K. in more ways than one.
The Salindar Nader side trip was more like the Battle of New Orleans while Tex fought the War of 1812 in the LaBianca Residence.
One thing about history Colonel is that it always seems to repeat itself even if its only a day or so later.
So i see that the Bug is ill. Should i pop the champagne corks now or should i wait for the coroners office to sound the trumpets?
Karma baby - gets you every time.
If there's any justice in this case to be had, it should be when Bugliosi gets to the pearly gates and sees that Susan is the one who's holding the gate open for him to enter into.
As for Orca and Babs - Satan himself will be ringing "Hells Bells" when that pair shows up for eternal lodging. It will be August 9th every day for eternity for those two.
As for July 4th - "Up The Rebels; Down The British" !
Kermit you sound like JimNY- because you probably are.
I do not intend to celebrate the Bug's illness or misfortune or death. What he did was despicable and whatever the after world holds is his destiny.
On the other hand after his death we can dig in some areas and do better research without worrying about his bullshit possible lawsuits.
I think Linda should have received some jail time. Sure give her a good deal for testifying, but since she climbed into the murder mobile again the secong night as she drooled over stabby Tex, she should of had to pay for her action.
Karma is alive and well in the world, but The BUG getting sick 40+ years later is not karma, its called getting old.
Glad you are back posting Col, hope all is well in your life and health.
Jessee2112
>>>Jesse2112 said...
Karma is alive and well in the world, but The BUG getting sick 40+ years later is not karma, its called getting old.<<<<<
Karma was when ordinary people started to find holes in Vince's theory for motive for the murders. This threatened Vince's legacy and it's the main reason why you'll find Vince escorting Linda Kasabian anywhere she goes. I wonder why Vince feels the need to do that?
Secondly, Susan went to her grave with a chain of lies that she forged in life at a time when she was NOT mentally competant to give testimony. By her own her admission, she had stated that "She wanted the whole world to know about "M" - referring to Charles Manson so what you got for testimony was a story that was fabricated and sensationalized similar to the story of Shorty Shea being cut up into 9 pieces and buried in seperate graves somewhere on the Spahn Ranch property.
This chain of lies allowed this woman, Susan, to be villified by every self righteous housewife in America who drank the daily koolaid that the Geraldo's and other talk show junkies would spoon out while the most notorious murderer in American History, Charles Tex Watson, remained obscured from view. Satan himself was permitted to run his own ministry and to use God as a human shield while Susan had been thrown under the bus.
It didn't even matter that Tex wasn't at the original trial so that everyone could become familiar with what really happened. We certainly couldn't have anyone connecting the dots and coming to the conclusion that maybe Charles Manson wasn't in charge of everything that happened at that ranch.
Vince has much to atone for and I hope that he takes this time to seriously consider saving his soul as opposed to protecting his legacy; a legacy that was based on lies and deception.
Karma will be in watching this man's legacy unravel because he fought so hard to promote the lie. He's a modern day Joseph Goebbels and an ego maniac.
Vince may be old, but his time appears to be up and Charles Manson will be the last man standing when this is all said and done.
Vince refers to Charles Manson as the "One of the most notorious murderers in American history"; a man who NEVER killed anyone, but yet won't apply this very same label on the man who actually DID the killings; Tex Watson.
Vince will go around stalking milkmen and beating up his mistress but God himself is gonna bitchslap this guy when Vince finally gets called up to that big office in the sky and you'll hear the sounds of Susan giggling from down the hallway.
Vincent Bugliosi will get disbarred on the other side where guys like him are held accountable for their actions. There are no cover ups in God's courtroom and Vince will go on trial for his crimes where he will be judged accordingly.
I found it rather touching when Vince was in favor of Susan's compassionate release when Debra Tate wanted to her cut her heart out and put it next to her fathers funeral ashes.
Guilty Conscience Vince?
bobby said...
>>>@ Kermit, Sorry I just think your wrong. Put yourself in Bugs place & the case is yours. Tell me how you play it out.<<<
Vincent Bugliosi was hand picked for this case by his superiors probably because they Vince could magically fit square pegs into round holes.
The objective always was to "Convict Charles Manson" for these murders and it didn't matter what lengths that Vince or the LAPD had to go to in order to accomplish that.
Look at this way, these guys were willing to grant immunity from Prosecution to Susan Atkins and even Leslie Van Houten for testimony that would incriminate Manson enough to secure a conviction.
As we all now, Linda Kasabian took that deal and covered her own posterior in the process.
We know that Vincent Bugliosi went to great extremes to get people to testify even going as far as making personal threats against some family associates.
The objective of the Prosecution was to "Convict Charles Manson" at all costs.
Charles Manson was the perfect patsy. He had a long criminal rap sheet and he was poster child for those who wanted to crush the hippie movement. He was portrayed as a "Failed Musician" although i personally believe that Manson was very much ahead of his time when it came to writing songs that would last forever because they were timeless in their message.
The question that you should be asking yourself Bobby is why is Vincent Bugliosi protecting Linda Kasabian and watching over her like a guardian angel? Can it be that he's afraid that Linda might sing "off key" and reveal something that perhaps could tarnish his legacy?
Why is the Salindar Nader event, which took place on the very night as the LaBianca murder, played down as if it never took place because nobody was killed. Who was in that car? Linda Kasabian, wasn't she? She wasn't back at the LaBianca residence because there was never any intention to use her there. Tex had that one under control. So why kill Nader? Who wanted him dead and why? Think about that one.
As for the Defense, if one can call it that, where was it?
Why was it that Paul Fitzgerald was the only attorney there who had any murder trial experience?
Why was Charles Manson not permitted to speak on the witness stand, in front of a jury, when he made his speech to Judge Older?
Did Vince really believe that Manson's hypnotic powers would influence the jury into finding him innocent?
Why was Judge Older allowed to preside over the case when his own daughter knew Patricia Krenwinkel?
It's been said that Judge Olders daughter had even waved to Patricia during the trial.
The trial was a pig circus. Forget about justice. All they did was draw a bullseye on the head of Charles Manson and they handed the legal weapon to Bugliosi.
If i remember correctly, didn't Vincent Bugliosi leave out the fact that Linda Kasabian only came to Spahn Ranch because she was seeking sanctuary for having stolen $5000 from her ex-husband's roommate?
Do you see a trend here? - "Watson, Kasabian".
Keep in mind that the only reason that Charles Manson had his infamous showdown with Bernard Crowe was because of something that Tex Watson had done all on his own. Charlie got sucked into that one and it had a bad ending that he got tagged for but the reality was that Manson basically saved the life of Tex Watson's girlfriend whom he had left as collateral for the money he had ripped off from Crowe and i believe this event took place sometime in late April. Maybe the Colonel can timeline that one for me but this happened well before Linda Kasabian was even on the scene.
This is the kind of guy that Tex Watson was/is. He has no conscience and he admitted that he had sexual hangups that he accredited the girls as having him gotten over.
Tex Watson, in my opinion, is like the Mr Rusk character from Hitchcock's movie called "Frenzy" and you have Charles Manson cast as Ian Blaney - the fall guy.
Kermit said>>>>>This chain of lies allowed this woman, Susan, to be villified by every self righteous housewife in America who drank the daily koolaid that the Geraldo's and other talk show junkies would spoon out while the most notorious murderer in American History, Charles Tex Watson, remained obscured from view.<<<<<<
Susan was vilified because she held a knife on an eight month pregnant woman and told her 'i don't care you're gonna have a baby, you're gonna die and you better be ready.' She was vilified because she compared Sharon Tate begging for her baby's life to a whining IBM machine. She was vilified for saying the high she got killing Sharon Tate was better than the best orgasm she ever had, for admitting that she thought about cutting the baby out of dead Sharon and for writing pig on the front door in Sharon's blood, for laughing in front of Sharon's father about the unspeakable suffering she inflicted on his daughter and grandson and on and on and on...
Kermit said >>>>>Look at this way, these guys were willing to grant immunity from Prosecution to Susan Atkins and even Leslie Van Houten for testimony that would incriminate Manson enough to secure a conviction.<<<<<<
Please. They were never going to grant immunity to Susan Atkins. The deal for Susan was going to be no death penalty.
Kermit said>>>>>Tex Watson, in my opinion, is like the Mr Rusk character from Hitchcock's movie called "Frenzy" and you have Charles Manson cast as Ian Blaney - the fall guy.<<<<<<<
Hard to paint Charlie Manson as the fall guy when Charlie walked into the Labianca house, tied up Leno and Rosemary and left them with killers.
Marliese said...
>>>
Please. They were never going to grant immunity to Susan Atkins. The deal for Susan was going to be no death penalty.<<<
You're right. I stand corrected.
>>>> Susan was vilified because she held a knife on an eight month pregnant woman and told her 'i don't care you're gonna have a baby, you're gonna die and you better be ready.' She was vilified because she compared Sharon Tate begging for her baby's life to a whining IBM machine. She was vilified for saying the high she got killing Sharon Tate was better than the best orgasm she ever had, for admitting that she thought about cutting the baby out of dead Sharon and for writing pig on the front door in Sharon's blood, for laughing in front of Sharon's father about the unspeakable suffering she inflicted on his daughter and grandson and on and on and on...<<<<
Susan's mental state was clearly questionable but alot of what she claimed was fabricated and simply not true.
As for the word "Pig" that was written on the "Outside" part of the front door - keep in mind that it was Tex Watson who told Susan as she was already half way down the driveway to go back and write something. If Tex Watson hadn't have said this, there would have been no writings in blood at the Tate residence at all. Quite contrary to what took place at the Hinman residence.
The Tate house, in no way, shape or form, was doctored up to look as if "Blacks" had done the deed.
The word "Pig" is used to describe a cop or an establishment person. The term is used by many ethnic groups and is clearly not something that one would associate solely with Blacks.
At the Hinman residence, you had a bloody black panther paw print that was left. This was unmistakable in its message.
The writing on the Tate door was done as an after thought in a failed attempt to hide the real purpose behind this particular murder scene.
The autopsy reports of Folger and Frykowksi clearly show that the violence was focused on these 2 individuals.
Again, you had Tex Watson climbing a telephone pole, in a commando fashion, in an attempt to isolate this house. Why? To Search it. Search it for what? Drugs? Cash? Video Tapes? Something that might connect the murderes to their victims?
In any event, we know that people did return to this residence to perform yet another search of the premises. Hopefully they didn't wake up Mr Garretson.
Kermit said>>>>>If i remember correctly, didn't Vincent Bugliosi leave out the fact that Linda Kasabian only came to Spahn Ranch because she was seeking sanctuary for having stolen $5000 from her ex-husband's roommate?<<<<<
No, you aren't remembering correctly. Kasabian did testify about the 5000.00 she stole.
Marliese said...
>>>>
Hard to paint Charlie Manson as the fall guy when Charlie walked into the Labianca house, tied up Leno and Rosemary and left them with killers.<<<<
I'm not saying that Manson was innocent.
LaBianca is a different matter. Someone knew that these people were away and they knew approximately as to when they'd be coming home. It has the appearance of a coordinated effort.
The killers knew they would be completely alone with their victims. Nobody stood guard because there was no reason to believe that they would be discovered by anyone. They ate some food, showered up and even changed their clothes. You'd think that the LaBianca residence was a Motel-6.
This one in particular was evil.
These people weren't just killed. They were mutilated. Leno even had a steak knife protruding through neck as if it was some kind of a Satanic calling card. Then again, Griffith Park wasn't that far away and was a nice playground for satanists to congregate. In fact, i believe that Leno even wrote to his ex wife about the goings on that took place in that park and he seemed quite concerned about it.
The hoods over the head, the knife through the neck ... has an almost ritualistic feel about it. After all, it was only the night before that Tex told Frykowski that he was here to do the devils business.
Very Strange indeed.
Okay - it's been fun.
Sorry to hear that Vince is in a hospital bed struggling to take his last breath.
I've got more important things to do like going over to Home Depot to pick up a few things.
And the love will shine .....
Peace.
@kermit the frog one annoying fucking muppet! are you off meds again? keep spewing , I love how many different ways angry nuts have, of convincing themselves how great life is on ice cream mountain! A nice change from the dwindling followers of history channels second favorite scruffy midget!, and the bored/boring under educated ,overwhelmed ,unemployed masses that team here. Speaking of which, hi maria !
Kermit said >>>>>Susan's mental state was clearly questionable but alot of what she claimed was fabricated and simply not true.<<<<<<<
Long after the murders, Susan admitted telling Sharon "shut up you bitch. You're going to die." She also admitted that she got down on the floor next to Sharon, and feeling her warm blood had a strong urge to remove the baby, then dipped a towel in Sharon's blood and wrote pig with it on the door. That's her cleaned up version eight years later, when she wrote her book...trying to appear rehabilitated.
And nearly thirty years after the murders, she reluctantly admitted to the parole board that she told Sharon she had no mercy for her...
Kermit said >>>>>The autopsy reports of Folger and Frykowksi clearly show that the violence was focused on these 2 individuals.<<<<<<
Because they fought the hardest!
Steven was executed practically on sight. Jay protested and was instantly shot. Voytek and Abigail both had the strength to fight...Abigail even tried to run.
You have to go to Home Depot, who the hell cares.
Marliese said...
>>> Because they fought the hardest! <<<<
rofl - you're a trip, aren't you?
No matter what i say, you'd find a way to argue with me about it. That's your privilege.
Without looking it up, i'd have to say that Frykowski and Folger were stabbed at least 30 times each, possibly more, in addition to having either been shot or pummeled with the infamous buntline revolver. The colonel knows the numbers here, but it's irrelevant to the point that i'm trying to make.
I would conservatively estimate that both Frykowski and Folger would have died after the first dozen or so stab wounds and I believe the cause of death in Frykowski and Folger's case was the direct result of "Exsanguination" - otherwise known as extensive "Blood Loss" and that would be consistant in cases where the victims wounds were inflicted by sharp objects.
Sure, they fought back to some degree, but their assailant (Tex Watson) kept going at them even after they were already dead. Tex was a very angry fellow that evening and that anger translated into those autopsy figures.
No surprise there. No surprise to me either was the fact that MDA was present in their bloodstreams at the time of which the autopsy was performed.
>>>
You have to go to Home Depot, who the hell cares.<<<<
I care, that's who cares, and I got there an hour before closing time too. Everything worked out quite well. Hopefully Vince is still with us?
In any case, I merely stopped by because the colonel made a few observations about Linda K that were of interest to me. Again, no surprise there. Been down that road already.
You're free to view this case from whatever angle pleases you. It's of no matter to me. If you think Bugliosi was "Dead On" about Manson wanting to start a race war, then that's your thing.
People have made a ton of money from this fantasy trip called HTLB and, as Manson always says, "People just wanna ride", and that's pretty much all they do. They ride it, they find ways to exploit it and they know no boundaries. They milk it for all this cow will give them.
But watching Bugliosi die a slow and painful death, as much as i hate to admit it, doesn't phase me in the least. He's just another HTLB parasite on his way to collect his eternal reward for what he's done here on earth.
Susan can give him a big hug and take him to meet Jesus when he gets there.
Kermit said >>>>>>You're free to view this case from whatever angle pleases you. It's of no matter to me. If you think Bugliosi was "Dead On" about Manson wanting to start a race war, then that's your thing. <<<<<<<
Personally, i've never said i believed Bugliosi was "Dead On" about the motive and if i did believe that, i wouldn't be reading this blog.
You say "Charles Manson never killed anyone." He may not have shot or stabbed anyone at Cielo and Waverly, but that doesn't make him any less of a murderer.
How come you never mention Shorty?
bobby said...
>>>You Posted 12 times & never addressed My question. How about it ?<<<
You're asking me, from a prosecution standpoint, to define or describe how i can build a case against a man that would send him to prison for life and make it appear as if he was the architect of a multi-night murder rampage carried out by individuals who were apparently brain washed into believing that this man was Jesus Christ.
In the limited amount of time that Vincent Bugliosi had, one would come to the conclusion that his strategy would be to prove that this man had control over his followers and that they would willingly obey his commands, hence you prepare a cult-like prosecution.
This is exactly what Vincent Bugliosi did and is probably exactly what I would have done under the same circumstances. It was very fortunate for Vince that Paul Watkins supplied much of the armagheddon material that made Vince's claim sellable to a jury.
The problem is that you're asking me to prove Manson guilty, as Vincent Bugliosi was asked to, when I argue that all the defense had to do to aquit Manson was to prove "Reasonable Doubt".
Paul Fitzgerald, Patricia Krenwinkels attorney, was the only attorney present who had murder trial experience. Did the defense take the time to study both the Tate and LaBianca residences and how the murders took place at each location? If they had, they should come to the conclusion that both of these locations were handled in two entirely different manners and that the Tate residnce was NOT doctored up to look as if blacks had done the deed.
Vincent Bugliosi worked with what was available and, from the cult standpoint, there was more than enough there to put together a fairytale and make it appear as if Manson wanted to rule a post apocolyptic world.
My argument is that the Defense was unprepared, incompetant and not up to the challenge of disproving Vincent Bugliosi's claims.
@Bobby
Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that the Defense couldn't counter Vince's claims.
It makes me wonder what was "Kept Out" of the trial for reasons known to those involved.
The crimes scenes themselves were subject to items being removed by the LAPD. Some of these items may have been video tapes and may very well have shown a physical connection between those at Spahn Ranch and the folks at Cielo Drive.
The DA's office was under enormous pressure to secure a conviction of Manson that i argue that some witnesses were tampered with and allowed to provide testimony at a time when they were not mentally competant to do so.
All Vince had to do was show that Manson had the ability to get his people to follow his wishes and, sad to say, the activities that took place at the Hall of Justice in Los Angeles were all that wa needed to show that Manson could control his people to some degree.
Vince had a tough task but Manson and his people went to great extremes to make Vince's job easier.
Again, where was the Defense when all of this was going on?
It was like sending a pinch hitter to the plate and just watching him stand there taking 3 strikes without even bothering to swing the bat.
I will say this ........ Had i myself, knowing what i know right now, had gone up against Vincent Bugliosi as Defense Attorney, i would have beaten Vince and got an aquittal for Manson.
The motive for these murders was not "Helter Skelter" and I know damn well that Vince knows that.
I would have used the Lottsapoppa incident all by itself to PROVE that Charles Manson was NOT in control of the activities that went on within his communal setting and that some people were very much doing their own thing.
As you know, Charles Manson was drawn into the Bernard Crowe incident because of something that Tex Watson did. TJ Wallerman himself confirmed that Bernard Crowe physically contacted Spahn Ranch asking to speak to "Charlie" but in TJ's own words he said that he thought Crowe was asking for Manson because he knew Waston as "Tex". Hence the saga began.
I argue that Charles Manson actually saved the life of Tex Watson's girlfriend by getting personally involved. Had he not gotten involved, that girl would have been murdered.
There's NOTHING here about Charles Manson wanting to start a race war. The trend i see was Charles Manson getting pulled into situations that were the doing of his other memebers.
That would be the basis for my Defense of Charles Manson.
Eddy said...>>>>>>>
Makes you wish you could turn into Miss Piggy just long enough to kick his ass right off Sesame Street don't it Marliese!?<<<<<<<<<
'kick his ass right off Sesame Street don't it Marliese?' LOL!
Hi Eddy! That was so perfect...LOL
Eddy said...
>>>Makes you wish you could turn into Miss Piggy just long enough to kick his ass right off Sesame Street don't it Marliese!?<<<
She doesn't have to turn into Miss Piggy - She's already a Piggy.
Seasame St is a rough place these days. Even Big Bird thought he was a badass too until he crossed swords with me and realized that it's a real bad idea to fuck with the frog.
Even Oscar the Grouch knows to keep his mouth shut unless he wants his trash can creepy crawled.
And Forget about Mr Hooper. One day he may turn up like Shorty Shea.
Gotta pay tribute to Jim Henson and the old Muppet Ranch in the sky. He knew how to maintain order among the troops.
Everyone knew their place. Too many people getting mouthy these days disrespecting muppets.
Lawlessness will not be tolerated !
Very bad defense. Bug zoned in on the phase Helter Skelter and learning of it's interpretation decided that it was the motive for the murders. He never found one single solid thread of evidence to back up this claim, but lucky for him, the defense team were beyond useless.
Bug sunk his teeth into the phrase Helter Skelter and then found someone (Watkins) willing to get up on the stand and confirm that it was discussed at the ranch by Charlie and others.
And this confirmed what exactly? Absoulutely nothing other than that hippies will talk about shit when out of their minds on drugs.
It hardly qualfies as circumstantial evidence
Also why is it that even though EVERYONE agrees that Gary H was killed over money, yet more than a handful of people still believe that mere weeks later the same bunch of people were killing strangers to try start a race war? Lapsed logic or what?
If Bug had prosecuted at the Hinmann trial, would he have tried to press HS as the motive for this too? And would people still today be supporting his outlandish claims?
EXACTLY, adam. Couldn't have said it better myself.
So, what EXACTLY was burned in Hinman's fireplace? I've heard things like "documents that could tie The Family to Hinman", "left-wing political documents that would make the murder look political" (Political Piggy???). Does anyone know EXACTLY what was burned?
I never believed the whole "race war" theory myself, but I do think that there is some creedence to the idea that Tate/LaBianca was random.
@Bobby
Just to give you and idea of why i say that Charles Manson is the equivalent of Hitchcock's "Ian Blaney", here's a really good clip of how Ian Blaney gets put into situations where he's the target of someone else's criticism or mockery:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0
klp2PSF8g
Here's the ending scene where you find Ian Blaney at the scene of another murder where the Police Detective walks in on him thinking he committed the murder only to find out that Mr Rusk was bringing down a chest to stuff the body into.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=EBkEjMK8mKM
Only The Absolute Genious of Hitchcock could devise such a tale that mirrors Manson/Watson in so many ways in terms of where the initial blame gets laid out.
Here's another clip, after Ian Blaney was wrongly sentenced, where the Police Detective is sitting in an empty courtroom and recalling how Ian Blaney argued his innocense. Another Brilliant Hitchcock moment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=DiqWOrPIwfY
I watch these clips, from one of the true great masters of film, and I have to say to myself, "Where have I seen this before?".
The activities of a new Mr Rusk (Tex Watson) trap yet another man who had a long history of being down on his luck (Charles Manson) and we watch a new kind of cinematic Frenzy unfold in a tale called "Helter Skelter".
If you haven't seen this movie, it's a must see. It's a Great Film from a Great Director and boy does it really make you think.
What if?
"He's a modern day Joseph Goebbels"
Godwin's rule.
"Charles Manson was the perfect patsy...for those who wanted to crush the hippie movement."
Sorry, but that purported motive is even more insane than Helter Skelter.
"Why was Charles Manson not permitted to speak on the witness stand, in front of a jury, when he made his speech to Judge Older?"
There was a go-through, as it were, since the law doesn't usually allow humans to take the stand and testify in narrative form. Was decided by the judge that it was unworkable, which wouldn't have mattered anyway, since the report is that Manson himself told his co-defendants that he'd said what he had to say and there was no longer any reason for them to testify.
"This is the kind of guy that Tex Watson was/is. He has no conscience..."
So who made Tex Watson a hero here? He's going to die an inmate. Not Bugliosi's fault that the California Supreme Court struck down the death penalty. Bugliosi did rather well in convicting Tex, since unlike some others, Tex had the good sense to go with a diminished capacity defense. So you should be crediting Bugliosi for helping to ensure that Tex didn't avoid some responsibility by way of a claimed diminished capacity.
Oh, and when I said, fools, that is a yes and no re van Houten, since first time through a fool, but then on first and second retrials she too went with the diminished capacity defense. Hung jury first time then she lost. Kudos to Mr. Prosecuting Attorney.
Lastly, re "fall guy", you're in some serious need of a thought process upgrade (or malware removal), if you think that Manson was some fall guy here. He wants to save the gal that Tex abandoned then, fine, do what some others suggest that St. Linda should have done: go to the police. Then there's Hinman.
Does the whole Gary Hinman thing not strike you as simply insane? Either he has money or he does not, and I tend think that some meaningful and serious threats might have given some an idea of whether his denial was truthful or not. Instead, we had Charles performing in an early version of The Last Samurai. Such is pretty much the conclusive proof on how Charles is rather to blame here.
Oh, and if you're into the whole robbery meme and mode, the Last Samurai routine rather elevates the nature of the crime, and that's why Hinman was ultimately killed and an attempt made to blame someone else. In other words, with some now standing to go down for aggravated robbery owing to Manson's Last Samurai routine, you can't really exculpate yourself if you leave Hinman alive, so kill Hinman and blame it on the Panthers.
The Hinman affair is how we know that Charles didn't give a shit about any of them, since it was his Last Samurai routine that put him, Bobby, et. al., on the line for aggravated robbery, and quite possibly attempted murder. And so Hinman had to die, so he couldn't testify against them all.
To add to my last, rhere is no motive here other than mere murder. Robbery/burglary is out since at Cielo Drive there was no generalized search of the premises, cash was found lying about, and a watch worth $1,500 left on Sebring's one wrist, or so say the police reports. Covering for Beausoleil doesn't work either, since there's no reason to connect Hinman with Tate, etc. You see, unless you can connect Hinman with the Cielo Drive victims, all of the rest, the PIG, HEALTER SKELTER, RISE, etc., screams "copycat" (at best). Some who disbelieve the whole notion of Helter Skelter accordingly spare not expense by way of claiming that Mrs. LaBianca was some big-time drug dealer and was connected, somehow or other, with one or more of the Cielo Drive victims. So even those misguided folks know that it isn't writing on the wall, but connecting the victims that makes the case, as it were, and no one was ever going to connect Hinman with Tate/LaBianca because of writing on the wall. Drugs is pretty much out as well, since who enjoys drugs so much that they wish to go down for multiple counts of murder with special circumstance?
And no one gets Charles off here, since not only does he go down for Hinman, but if the defense does as some desire, not only Tex, and not only St. Leslie on retrials, but St. Susan and St. Patricia as well, all of them claim diminished capacity and blame it on the LSD and Charles and his manipulation, with Beusoleil chiming in with, If only that son of an unwed mother hadn't went all Last Samurai then no need or reason to kill Hinman.
Almost forgot, but re Tex, he gets less notoriety as he isn't as schizophrenic as Manson (he isn't at all, just a sociopath, which isn't nearly as saleable). He also isn't a looker like some gals report re Beausoleil. Ditto van Houten and Atkins, with some sickos on Youtube commenting about how "hot" they are (the dirty, flea-infested, STD-ridden skanks, and St. Susan with her moustache). That's why it's played out as it has. And if Charles had learned to control himself, then he would have been a different man in the courtroom. Leaping across the table and then saying that the judge's head should be lopped off isn't exactly endearing, though it's highly saleable. But guilt or innocence wasn't the point for Charles, as he is satisfied that he got his message out to the world.
For yet one more, when any of the miscreants simply sends an anonymous money order to the victims' families by way of full or partial restitution of funeral expense(s), then I'll believe that some have even so much as merely begun to show remorse. And so one gets the point, at least two of the miscreants have written a book, which likely generated at least some income, so the least they could do is pony up for all or part of the funeral expense. St. Susan was once asked about that. Her response? I never thought about that. That's as far as her and their remorse goes, I never thought about that. At least St. Linda has lived a life that reflects the haunted soul that she claims to have become with the murders.
Oh, and Kermit, once you understand the nature of Charlie's schizophrenia, then you'll understand how entirely conceivable it is that he envisaged race war, what with the racial turmoil, etc., of the 60s. His schizophrenia also accords with his hearing the Beatles speaking to him and the world.
dinggo said...
>>>>
Lastly, re "fall guy", you're in some serious need of a thought process upgrade (or malware removal), if you think that Manson was some fall guy here. <<<<
I state for the record that Charles Manson was drawn into both the Bernard Crowe Incident and the Tate fiasco through circumstances that were not of his own doing and which were related to activities that were connected to Charles Tex Watson.
In an interview that Charles Manson did with Geraldo Rivera, Manson had said that when Susan had returned and told him about what had happened that his words were something along the line of "You dumb cunt, you just sent me back to prison". An admission that what happened up at that house was not what Charles Manson was led to believe would happen.
I believe that Charles Manson was being honest when he made that comment because, in his own way, he way trying to explain what had happened up there.
The second point that i wanted to make was that all of the people who went up to that house that night all had a close association to Linda Kasabian. Three chicks and a guy went up to that house to "Take care of business" and to isolate that house so that it could be searched for something. It was Larry Bailey, a family member who also liked Linda, who gave Linda his knife to use. Everything about this incident revolves around Linda.
Tex brought rope with him, just enough rope to string up 2 piggies in Frykowski and Folger.
It was more than obvious that Tex was expecting light resistance from the occupants.
On the surface, this has all of the ingrediants of a "Revenge" killing. Revenge for what? Revenge for something that happened to one of Tex Watson's associates which had resulted in a drug burn.
Linda Kasabian was told to stay outside. Isn't it odd that maybe Pat or Susan wasn't asked to do that instead? Why Linda?
Why did Linda later approach a dying Voyteck Frykowski and tell him that she's sorry? Sorry? As if she feels personally responsible for his condition. She later had a change of heart when it came to sparing the life of a guy named Salindar Nader who i consider to be the "Missing Link" of this case. The DA won't even talk about this only because there wasn't a dead body that could be linked to LaBianca. How convenient.
This had nothing to do with Charles Manson planning the deaths of these people at Cielo Drive. A planned operation wouldn't have been this messy and other people would have been used to carry out the deed.
This was another Tex Watson adventure that had gotten out of hand just as it had played out with Bernard Crowe. This was a spontaneous event that required a quick resolution and hence it was hastly constructed.
Charles Manson wasn't calling the shots. Tex was in charge of this incident. Manson didn't tell Watson to get bolt cutters and to climb the telephone poll and to cut the phone lines in order to isolate the house at the top of a dead end street.
The Tate incident was like Lottsapoppa on Steroids only this time a muliple homicide was played out in a residence that Charles Manson could be connected to through his association with Terry Melcher. Toss in a dead aspiring film actress, which is the equivalent of a personal attack on hollywood, and Charles Manson becomes the #1 target of the DA's office.
Abilgail Folgers family was rumored to have paid a number of people not to discuss the circumstances that surrounded their daughters death. That's a pretty hideous thing to do, no? What were they afraid of? They obviously feared what might be brought up and perhaps revealed.
How does Bugliosi himself know about what was covered up and why does he continue to shadow Linda Kasabian 40 or so years after these events went down?
@dinggo
Charles Manson wanted to rule the world after a post apocolyptic race war? Say what?
Even if he had it, he'd only put order back into it so that ATWA could come to fruition.
This thing stinks like a rotten tuna sitting on a dock somewhere.
I'n not here to get into a pissing contest with anyone. If someone disagree's with my findings then so be it.
The pattern that i'm trying to show is one where Charles Manson gets drawn into situations that were not of his own doing.
Remember Gary Hinman? Wasn't that Bobby Beausoleil's failure? I believe that Charlie explained to Nicholas Schrek that the Frenchman has a problem that he was looking for Charlie to solve.
Again ....
@Dinggo
Watch the Alfred Hitchcock movie "Frenzy" and see if the name Marina Habe pops into your head anywhere along the way.
I don't know if Tex Watson ever wore ties, but i do know that he used to sell wigs.
Get my drift?
@Dinggo
This is what i call "Great Film" - Here's the original trailer to the Hitchcock movie - sheer genious:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=HuoBprPGpzA
Charlie defenitley sent out the murder mobile to Cielo. Tex was an easy read, and it would have been obvious that he would have no problems stabbing people. The only question is why. I do not think it is as lame as Charlie's ego for not getting a record contract and sending a message to Terry. Manson is F up in the head. There is no telling on how much of his BS he bought into himself after spewing it out so many times. Besides, Charlie had no qaums about killing anyone. But their are pieces to this story we will never know, like how many victims there really are? Who knew the real truth behind the murders and who was a mushroom.
I always wondered what the relationship was between Kasabian and the Bug. I got so sick and tired of hearing how sweet and innocent Linda was when reading Helter Skelter.
You are not running down Cielo Drive, because the guy you love has just turned psycho and still has agun in his hand, and you are not to know if he will shoot you down or not. Nobody has appeared at the sound of the gun, so no-one will hear you scream. you are a few feet away from a man on methamphetamine, who is also surging on killer adrenalin and who is splashed with blood. Ever seen someone on meth? Ever tried it? It's a terrible drug. It makes you look totally psycho. god Tex must have looked terrifying.
No. You are going to be in shock and do every single thing this maniac says and hope no bullets hit you.
Run where, exactly?
Helter Skelter or not, in Manson's mind, or in Tex's, it is clear that the girls, or at least Susan, believed it was one motive. In "The KillingOf Sharon Tate" the very earliest account, from Susan's own lips, she says: It was done to instil fear in Terry Melcher and to show the black man how to go about taking over the white man.
Don't forget that Katie actually wrote this at the scene. And how on earth did Charlie respond to that? If I'd been him, I'd have sent them right back to wash it off. It's his calling card! Half LA will go: My God, Charlie "Helter Skelter' Manson did this! So therefore I think Katie didn't tell him. That was an insane thing to write.
And why the police would choose that one for the polygraph key when it was obviously something special and likely to produce results...wow the cops were rubbish. Too much beating up hippies.
Anyway, the girls including Susan later said it was the copy cat motive. So we have Susan in her first book saying Helter Skelter and in her next, copycat and in the next, it is money for drugs, maybe, and copycat stuff...she probably didn't know. Susan also changed her story about why she blabbed;
first was "I wanted the world to know 'M'" and claimed to have killed Sharon for real;
next (in Child Of Satan) she said, it was her tendency to boast, not be able to keep her mouth shut, want to impress people, hence she exaggerated holding Sharon into killing her;
in her parole hearings, she said she was very afraid in jail and so decided to act crazy and boast of the killings to scare the inmates, that's why she called herself a killer;
and in her last book, she said it was to fend off unwanted homosexual advances from Ronnie and Virginia and they had embellished her story to get themselves out of jail.
What did poor insecure Sadie ever know? She also changed her family life stories, going from her father being indifferent to being actively abusive, and adding in her brother. All that is certain about her is she was about the most isolated person in the world.
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