We get questions and we give answers when we feel like it
1- Listen yeah sure whatever how can you call the Helter Skelter theory insane?
A- Because it didn't even exist except in the masturbatory fantasies of BUG. It isn't a real thing. They didn't try to link it to Blacks. Not a single cop ever thought it was Blacks. It just wasn't real. I could talk to your 20 friends and take snippets of bullshit you said when you were high and state that you enjoyed armadillo sex and wanted to take over Navajo Territory but that don't make it sane or true. I have talked to the attorneys who were in charge before Bug wandered in. This theory was invented by the BUG. As he points out in the novel, he didn't HAVE to prove motive but it would be easier to get a conviction if he did. HE WANTED CHARLIE. Think about it- without Charlie some drug addled hippies killed some famous people. But with HS, we have a demonic guru. Spare me.
2- Hey why you be hating on Debra Tate? Didn't she suffer enough?
Debra Tate did in fact suffer and I believe the suffering put her off the rails. She always suffered from middle child syndrome (see: Jan Brady) and was never going to be as pretty as Patti or god help us Sharon. She was never going to be famous, Oui pull out or not. We all suffer in our own ways. Debra's way was to act out, against the world, against the family. It is very Miss Haversham. I am sure she talks to Sharon regularly and maybe even tries on parts of her clothing (she couldn't fit in a dress). Debra is to be pitied. EXCEPT
She illegally operates as if she owns Sharon when in fact legally those rights were left to others.
She continues to do interviews full of lies, muddying the waters for the truth.
She continues to wrongly hold her father's ashes hostage from his burial place next to his wife and daughters.
She is friends with Robin Olsen.
All of this makes her someone to be exposed, mocked and avoided.
3- How could Alisa Statman sully the Tate Family Legacy?
Did you read the book, bitches? No one has written anything that comes close to revealing the heartache they suffered and their reactions. Alisa didn't include Debra because she hadn't been part of the Tates for years.
4- Why did Charlie get a 15 year denial?
Cause homey don't give a shit.
5- What happened to my House Painter?
I don't know.
6- I thought you were getting profiled by some lady from the Chicago Sun-Times. What happened?
I really don't know. I took a long time, I gathered a friend, and gave her the tour of a lifetime. But no article.
75 comments:
The most important issue here to me..
aside from the fact that the the book was excellent....
is that someone find your house painter
Please also let us know if you find the house painter...
It's Friday! A new post!
The Chicago Sun Times lady probably dumped the piece because of your denial in the existence of Helter Skelter as a concept. Denying it as a motive is one thing...hell I do it myself...but denying the concept of it - that it did exist as a Mansonian affectation of sorts at the least - makes you look kind of bat shit crazy. Like a lot of the other folks in the milieu.
Ok, fire when ready. I probably won't be able to respond until next week anyway.
starship said...
"......Like a lot of the other folks in the milieu."
Where have I seen the word "milieu" used lately? I recently just read it on a blog somewhere, it's French. Hmmm...not a common choice in word. I'll figure it out.
Heres my problem I've NEVER bought the 'helter skelter' crap charles believed his own hype of being god jesus satan all in. 1 my belief is this Roman made Rosmarys baby and in his whacked mind he saw that Sharon was prego and he wacked totally out with him being god and his other personalities he I believe that's what he thoughth e seesSharons. Prego then u have Rosemarys baby and it set him off and over the total edgehes far from crazy nuts insanity his IQ is high he's like me in the 1% w talke in riddles without m meaning to do it. Just my theory
Charles was handed fifteen years by the BPH because the number of years between parole hearings was recently increased by CA law, from a minimum of one, increments of five, to a maximum of fifteen years.
The maximum between parole hearings used to be five years.
It was the parole board's way of saying that they're not intending to grant parole, ever.
Kinda cruel, dangling the possibility of parole, only to yank it away.
Charles isn't playing their game, which is why he didn't show up.
Got a couple of things, which just may get me kicked off this blog because for some reason, the Col. thinks that I am some JimNy person, which I am not.
First of all, who are these people addressing Manson as if they are personal friends of his? "Charles" this and "Charles" that...kind of creepy and freaky, especially since at least one of them seems to be a supporter of sorts. Hmmmm...
Secondly, I have to agree with Starship on this one. Helter Skelter was a theory used by Bugliosi and there is evidence of it all over the place from many different sources who corroborated the theory separately from each other during different interrogations. Bugliosi just put all of the pieces of the puzzle that he was handed together. Sorry Col. but that can't be disputed.
Theories are not always put into practice. They're just that...theories.
P.S. Why the horrid hate-on for Bugliosi? Did he do something to you personally? Seriously....because unless a person is totally deranged, it's very difficult to hate someone that you don't know. But that's just a theory I guess.
Hi
I read this post 2 times. It is very useful.
Pls try to keep posting.
Let me show other source that may be good for community.
Source: Police captain interview questions
Best regards
Jonathan.
In my humble opinion :)
Paul Watkins had as much to do with growing the legend of H/S as anyone...
He sort of led Bugs down the road in my opinion, or at least hand fed him the phrase...
Bugs did not totally invent this - but he took one of a few phrases Charlie tossed around and chose that one as the main tool to create the ( and his own)legend that followed...
Bugs made it what is is- but he didn't invent it...
in my opinion
And Maria.... with all due respect
the problem with Bugs blowing the H/S smoke up everyone who will listens ass..
is that for 40 years everyone takes it as fact and it hampers anyone who has the means and reasons to get to the bottom of what really went down...
and the truth behind why those nights really happened is what keeps many of us here and interested in this case...
his constant lying and self aggrandizing is getting in the way of us ever being able to figure out why the hell any of that had to go down...
Not a reason to hate anyone for sure....
Debra Tate, Bugs- under the same umbrella to me...
they use this case as a means to keep themselves relevant and there faces in the public eye...
No matter if they know what they are talking about or not..
any publicity is good publicity to them and they obviously love to see themselves on TV and hear the sound of there own voices...
No reason to hate for sure- but it is also really hard to respect people like this either sometimes...
some people chose to word this politely
and some do not.
Finally Maria- alas Charlie does have some supporters and friends who visit different rooms from time to time..
It is everyone right to chose there own beliefs and friends....
It is amazing to me that this is the case, and that anyone would chose to have these people in there lives- especially AFTER KNOWING what has already happened...
But they do- and that is not my choice to make...
we debate hard, and you can learn some things from these pees as well once in awhile...
eventually we disagree- because we must lol
but I am glad that all types of people with all types of views come here to play and fight with me...
it is the best way to gather all the information and hear all the angles....
So in the end we can make our own best informed opinions about what we read and hear...
Balance is nice in moderation...
as long as at the end of the day-I always get to be right :)
ditani esmism
you can learn some things from PEEPS like this not pees lol sorry
Maria, several people on this blog, including myself and the gent who calls himself "old JC" actually ARE friends of Manson.
I support Charles Manson because I believe that he is not guilty of first degree murder, and that he's served adequate time for being an accessory after the fact.
Further, I support his ATWA philosophy.
If you find that creepy, well, there isn't anything I can say to alleviate your response... what I find creepy is lies and pollution, and the average American's acceptance of either.
I agree with AC ...
Charlie gets way too much credit for the TLB murders...
He didn't personally Kill any of those people on that night...
Nor do I hold him responsible for anything Tex Watson did...
and there in lies the main problem with Bugs...
He has rewritten History, and as long as the boggie man is locked up- they can lay it to rest, and try to move on...
Charlie wont go to parole hearings, and he wont do any interview that can mean anything...
But he loves to rant...
So in my estimation- one of the ways we can still possibly unlock a couple of doors to the remaining unknowns-
is if he talks to the few poeple he has left he trusts..
and maybe we someday get something new which opens one more door- which answers something inadvertently - that leads to solving something else...
Cant really figure out at this point as they are starting to die off of many other ways we ever get anything NEW to work with
Society in general seems to be willing to accept Bugs version and assume that the Bad guys are all locked away forever....
I guess it makes it much easier that way...
So much bad shit goes on - it is hard to blame people for not wanting to worry about scary shit that happened so long ago- when there can be so much to deal with right in front of us...
But I cant get passed it...
I really want to know the truth
Thanks for all of the responses.
I do agree that both Debra and Bugliosi are able to keep their names in the news thanks to these crimes. And yes, Bugliosi did make and continues to make copious amounts of money from these crimes.
I also agree with AC about wanting what is best for our planet that we have ruined in the name of advancement and technology. I support that completely. What I don't support is Charlie's affiliation with it.
People can think what they want, as ST. said, and as individuals, we are free to be friendly with who we want, where we want, whenever we want...that is the beauty of living in a democracy. I guess I just don't understand why anyone would want to be friends with the likes of Charlie. Personally, affiliated with the crimes or not, I think he's kind of a slimy low-life.
As far as the HS theory goes...it was presented to Bugliosi, and he used it to convict some very dangerous individuals. It's true that Charlie wasn't at the scene of the Tate murders, but he was at Labianca and went in first to tie them up so that there wouldn't be the chaos of the night before. He knew damn well what his minions were going to do. In my opinion, he would have loved to participate in those murders, but he didn't have the balls.
As far as Tex and the ladies (and I use that term loosely), they acted of their own volition on both of those nights. They have something in them that separates them from the rest of us -- the ability to slaughter innocent people.
As far as the reasons go...I too would love to hear what they may be. It's interesting though that each and every one of them behind bars, including the late Ms. Atkins, independent of each other, continued to espouse the oh-so-famous HS theory that seems to be the source of so much debate.
I find that interesting...so many different individuals affiliated with the family said the same thing about Charlie and Helter Skelter...can't blame Bugliosi for going with it as motive.
Now here is my question...why did so many individuals come forth with this same theory, over and over again, with nothing to gain? We can't debate whether or not they did...it's fact...
Please...no conspiracy theories....it wasn't to frame Charlie...
Waiting on responses...
Ill give a response...
Who ever put forth the theory besides Bugs Maria?
what other individuals said that was the motive?
Certainly Charlie mentioned it. It was on a door recovered from the ranch...
Obviously he used the phrase and they all were aware of it...
but do you feel that makes it the reason for everything that happened?
Paul Watkins went back and forth between both Bugs and the family and he was the one who first put it out there, and then Bugs got a few people to agree that Charlie talked about it... and the rest is history in my estimation.... he took what he needed and ran with it
but connecting that with any other single piece of proof that Tex went over and did what he did to start a race war for Charlie is something I have not been able to do...
nor anyone else to my satisfaction
Definitely Paul Watkins...but so did Danny DeCarlo...Juan Flynn...and even cukoo-bananas Sandy went on record on some talk show a number of years ago to say that Helter Skelter was what was going down..that they were "at war"...which is ironically close to ATWA...
Charlie shot his mouth off about Helter Skelter..no one disputes that they used to sit around the campfire and read the Book of Revelation and listen to the White Album and...and...and...this happened...each and every one of Charlie's "followers" if you will, when interrogated spewed the same story. The whole thing about the bottomless pit...blah blah blah...
Honestly, can't blame the prosecutory team for taking this as theory..
As an added P.S...Charlie had a rap-sheet the length of my 5'8" body prior to Tate/Labianca...guy is scum regardless..criminal, criminal, criminal who begged to not be released from prison in
1967. He was getting three squares a day, was able to play his guitar...again..blah blah blah...
So, now shit Sherlock that he doesn't show up for his parole hearings in present day..he lives in protective custody..no more risk of Hare Krishnas with lighters...he has three squares a day...the dude is old now...he probably sleeps the better part of his day away..can't say I'm shocked...
I like it here...some real debates going on with intelligent people who seem to be able to agree to disagree with no hard feelings...that's good. Not like some other forums which shall remain nameless...lol
I agree with much of what your saying...
I have made some of those points myself, and AC knows I think Charlie did plenty to deserve to be right where he is...
I just think that Charlie said many things and gave many speeches, and Bugs took one of the many things he told them that worked best to what else he had working for him, and made it to be much more than it was...
do not think Tex did what he did to spark H/S...
But I have been wrong before :)
Could not agree more about Tex...that dude is one sick fuck..talk about being able to manipulate the facts AND the system to his advantage...
However, in my opinion...(I'm learning to use this catchphrase..lol)...I honestly believe that there were far too many fingers pointing in the direction of the Helter Skelter theory for Bugliosi to even have fabricated on iota of this notion.
Too many individuals on too many different occasions...all saying the same thing...
Really doesn't matter shit if it was true or not, or if it was the real reason behind those two nights of terror...I go back to the too many people saying the same thing on too many different occasions "theory"...leads me to believe that there was some creedence to the idea.
Now...is this what Charlie believed? We will never know unless he decides to stop speaking in his ridiculous riddles while doing his insane Ninja moves and has an honest to goodness sit-down with someone besides the likes of Geraldo.
Bottom line is this one...there were 7 innocent people slaughtered on those two nights back in August 1969...and without the modern testing done at the crime scenes (not to mention the HUGE LAPD fuck-ups), with the completely bizarre nature of these murders, and with the testimony of all those either involved with the crimes or close to the "Family"...it's very difficult to come up with any other theories.
P.S.
ST...I'm having a couple of beers..would be great to sit down and have a few with you and debate...lol...disadvantage of these blogs and boards...nothing like a face-to-face amongst friends.
indeed it would...
but I'm having beers myself so the next one is for you
:)
maria said...
>>>Got a couple of things, which just may get me kicked off this blog because for some reason, the Col. thinks that I am some JimNy person, which I am not.<<<
I find it almost comical at times to read through these moronic postings only to find people coming to the conclusions that i had laid out at their feet years ago. Maybe that's a sign that people are finally starting to think "Outside" of the box as opposed to drinking up the Bugliosi Koolaid.
You are most certainly NOT the great "JimNy" because that man is an HTLB Legend !
He's the only blogger in the HTLB Universe who grabbed ColScott by the testicles, "Quentin Tarantino Style", and made him squeal like a little piggie when he took down the Don Murphy Message Board one late evening many yarins ago in a frantic attempt to cover up his nefarious trail.
Unlike all of the other parasites that feed off of Manson and Company, for their own personal gain, JimNy never made a penny or sold anything to anyone for money in connection to this case.
JimNy isn't writing books, and isn't looking for his 2 seconds of fame, and isn't looking to be anything more than an anonymous ship that sailed through some troubled waters in the middle of the night.
All the "Friends" of Manson are selling off what's left of his legacy for a few dimes and nickles that won't get them anywhere in life.
I don't make money on the blood or from the suffering of others. That's what sets JimNy apart from the rest of the characters that make up the HTLB Universe.
Charles Manson is alot like a fighter named Ruben Hurricane Carter which a guy named Bob Dylan once sang about. The story is quite similar and Manson is NOT what Bugliosi claimed he was.
I believe that time will prove this out. All one had to do was to look at the Lottsapoppa incident. Charlie saved the life of Tex's girlfriend by getting personally involved in something that had nothing to do with him. Charlie put his own ass on the line for those people he considered his friends. I believe you'll find that this is the theme here especially in regards to the Tate residence.
Lottsapoppa and Tate were both masterminded by Tex Watson who was essentially running his own little drug enterprise independant of Manson.
You remember that you heard that from JimNy and NOT ColScott.
Hey Kermit...
Statler and Waldorf are heckling you off the stage...
according to hendrickson, both watkins and flynn were dismissed from going vietnam for their helter skelter testimony. that is big incentive to lie.
i do believe manson was teaching his folowers his helter skelter theology and believed it himself. that is not the true motive for the murders except for krenwinkel who truly believed everything manson said and was his strongest disciple.
what mainly sets Jim from NY apart from the rest of us is that he is a very disturbed bastid...
he actually tried to date LULU
and that speaks for his lunacy in itself on a much more grand scale than anything I could ever say...
The lunatic actually wanted to date one of them ... fell in love with one of them...
now we debate the motivation to be FRIENDS with any of them...
This guy decided that someone who was locked away for life for murdering innocent people in there homes was the very best person for him to spend his life with...
That should say everything you need to know about his options and his life...
unfortunately- when I know that this is true of a person...
I just cant take anything else they say seriously, and they have forfeited the right to be taken seriously in any way...
Many people come here with much to offer
some people come here with little to offer but are trying to learn
others come here for entertainment
and guys like that come to act like know it all smart asses- and insult everyone else...
I could care less really why people come- unless they just get in the way and discourage others from participating....
NOBODY BLOGGING ON THIS POST KNOWS 100% FOR SURE WHAT WENT DOWN
AS long as we all keep that in mind and respect each other...
there ought to be room for all of us
as well- Jim likes to spew old news and act like he it is the first time anyone ever heard it...
Tex sold drugs?
Bobby knew Anger?
Thanks Buddie for the breaking news lol
stick to LULU she is more your speed :)
Nobody here needs your smart ass reviews of TLB history...
What would be interesting as hell is if you sent Col a few of LULUS letters blowing you off to print...
inside the minds of two mentally impaired dingbats- would be must read in my opinion...
and when you consider you couldn't even get LULU when she had ZERO options...
well you must be something really special...
lol it must really suck to be like that....
You wonder what type of losers would have been attracted to those dirty- diseased filled little sluts who fucked any biker or hairless/toothless dirt bag that came there way....
and I give you JIm from NY...
LOVE IT!!!!
And you are very right indeed, ST.
No one knows for sure what went down those two nights because apart from the Ninja rantings of Charlie and the overdone words of the "ladies" and Tex...no one is talking.
I would be interested to hear what Clem has to say if anything. I wonder if part of the deal of him being paroled was that he shut his mouth. He was portrayed as almost "retarded" in his youth, yet here he is a seemingly successful musician in the free world.
I also believe that Bruce Davis holds some information that he has yet to share.
As far as people on this blog..agree again with ST...we all bring something different here..we all have our theories and ideas.
i meant posten, not flynn. yes flynn did serve in vietnam.
Man, the Saint is on his game. Great words. And Bobby and Starship and Maria too.
What IS INSANE is taking a phrase that was written on a door at Spahn and written in blood at the LaBiancas (not to mention Watkins, DeCarlos and countless others references and testimony) and claiming that the whole thing was a Bug fantasy.
The Col is a very smart and fascinating guy, but his hatred of the Bug has his perspective so skewed he is like one of those JFK conspiracy nuts who is convinced the Dallas Cowboys were behind the assassination.
Maria, "Helter Skelter" was Susan's invention, the White Album was hers, she came up with most of the rhetoric about it.
As for others testifying, I think there was a great deal of "leading the witness" on Mr. Bugliosi's part.
Kermit, Jim, or whoever you are, any money that I've collected in Charles's name has gone to ATWA projects, and that is true of several of Charles's friends.
Don't intend to speak ill of the dead...well, actually I do...but Susan wasn't nearly smart enough to come up with the HS theory. She would have had trouble doing a connect the dot by the number from a toddler's coloring book.
I say give credit where credit is due...Charlie is a lot of bad things, but he is by all accounts, even Bugliosi's, an extremely intelligent guy. Sorry AC, but this whole notion seems to have Charlie's fingerprint all over it.
In my opinion, the dude took a book and a record and spun this incredible story together...
Have you ever read "Helter Skelter"? I go back to my too many different people, at different times, telling the same story under different circumstances...
when a story is corroborated, over and over again by different people without changing one single piece of information (and there were tons of minute details that no one could have known unless they were all hearing it from the same source), it has to have some credibility. That's just plain logical.
And AC, although I support and applaud your devotion to air, trees, water and whatever the last "A" stands for, the mere fact that prior to 1969, Charlie was a scumbag criminal, it would be great if the money you raised for your cause was actually donated to a real, bonafide, registered charity or group which fights for the environment. This whole ATWA thing, to me, seems like yet another scam. Sorry, but with the likes of Cukoo-Bananas Sandy spear-heading the whole thing...smells like a front to get money to pay Charlie's prison cell phone bill...lol
So now Susan invented Helter Skelter and copy cat?
Susan...yes, Susan...the mastermind of the whole thing.
LOL...
The "copy cat" idea was from a variety of people, Marliese. Not sure how that got read into my statement.
"Helter Skelter" and a lot of the doomsday stuff came from Susan. You must remember, a group of people were sitting around talking about things... not Charles lecturing everyone and them hanging on his every word.
Some of the young ladies, such as Brenda and Gypsy, were very revolutionary, talking about the downfall of society.
Charles came up with some of the race riot stuff, since prisoners of African descent were talking heavily about the "Black Power" movement of the time, and also due to the Crowe incident. At that time, many people believed there was gonna be a massive racial uprising... including members of the American government.
However, Charles isn't particularly racist... he was simply quoting what black prisoners had stated in his presence.
There wasn't any "mastermind". Just a few people with a very bad idea.
Maria, I'd think that if a prosecutor was trying to make a case, then wrote a book, of COURSE he'd have witnesses corroborating one another.
Bobby BeauSoleil states that much of "Helter Skelter" is untrue, and that Charles wasn't a mastermind of anything.
Also, Maria, recipients of phone calls have to pay the phone bills, not the prisoners themselves.
Money for ATWA causes -- the last A stands for "animals", by the way -- is going to create, manufacture and test an invention of Charles's, called the "Savior" which ejects seeds and a soil fixative into barren areas.
Which charity would you suggest instead? ...something like the Sierra Club, which earns money from calendars made from PAPER, and uses 60% of all money received to pay their "administrative costs"?
Hmmm, who do we think is calling the shots... a young man with an education, such as Tex Watson, or a former convict with a third grade education, such as Charles Manson?
Never said it came from you, AC.
Thank you for all of your responses AC....
As much as I would like to buy into what you are saying, well, I just can't.
I don't think education has anything to do with calling the shots. I know plenty of dumbass, stupid educated people.
I fear that you may be underestimating Charlie...the dude is a sociopath as far as I'm concerned. And he had a knack for attracting the psychopaths. Sociopaths don't like to get their hands dirty. They manipulate others to do their bidding. I'm a teacher...I see this behavior every day in even the very young.
My take is that Charlie was one frustrated little rock star poseur. He was promised the sun, the moon and the stars from a stoned out Dennis Wilson. Terry Melcher pissed on his parade and ended his dream. He always hated the "establishment". He wanted what everyone else had and worked hard for, only he wanted it handed to him.
When this didn't happen, he decided that it was time to do some payback, so he sent his minions up to Cielo Drive, ironically, the house where Melcher used to live.
There are just too many connections to the frustrated musician, The Beatles and The White Album...the Bible and Revelation 9...I'm not saying that Charlie EVER believed that he would be able to bring down Helter Skelter. In fact, I highly doubt that this notion was more than a fantasy in his mind. However, it is my belief that he used this fantasy in his fireside "chats" both pre and post drug-fueled orgies. He riled up his minions and sent them to wreak havoc and teach the entertainment industry and the establishment a lesson.
As far as ATWA, you got me there. I was being a smart-ass. I don't know who is who in the Save the Planet league. Personally, I don't donate to any of those causes. I just do my best to reduce, reuse and recycle, although I do drive an SUV.
P.S.
AC...I see that you are going to be featured on the air tonight.
I only wish I could get the broadcast. As much as I disagree with you, you have class.
"Helter Skelter" and a lot of the doomsday stuff came from Susan.>>>
No it didn't.
>>>You must remember, a group of people were sitting around talking about things... not Charles lecturing everyone and them hanging on his every word.>>>
Yes he was AC. Are you that brainwashed????
>>>>Some of the young ladies, such as Brenda and Gypsy, were very revolutionary, talking about the downfall of society.>>>
Because "Charles" told them that.
>>>>Charles came up with some of the race riot stuff, since prisoners of African descent were talking heavily about the "Black Power" movement of the time, and also due to the Crowe incident. At that time, many people believed there was gonna be a massive racial uprising... including members of the American government.>>>
Maybe that's why "Charles" told Linda to hide Rosemary's billfold in a "black" gas station.
>>>However, Charles isn't particularly racist... he was simply quoting what black prisoners had stated in his presence.>>>
AC this is the most ridiculous statemlent you've made. "Charles" hated black folks and he wanted them dead. i.e., Lottsapoppa.
Prove me wrong!!! Idiot.
That's why he hated that Shorty married a "nigger girl".
He hated Shorty for that. And you KNOW IT.
PLEASE STOP RE-WRITING THIS CRAP. IT IS WHAT IT IS.
Charles Manson is a cult-leading killer who was pissed off and ordered others to kill people he was mad at, that he considered "pigs".
Sharon Tate, et al.
The La Biancas.
Charlie was at the LaBianca house AC. I don't care how he tries to re-write history, he has already admitted he was there.
He can't take it back now.
So...SIT ON IT.
The source of the issue to me is parenting...
Charlie has a few causes he spouts about which do make sense.
He preaches to his friends about some virtues which are true and good...
and so when they quote him directly- they are making points which can be difficult to attack.
and as well- he can say- Accurately- that he didn't kill anyone during TLB...
( and although he broke many laws and did much harm to many people- this is sort of what made him famous)
So.... you can see - sort of - where they come from in his defense
But- BIG BUT - back to the original point...
Parenting.
We ought to do a better job of teaching our kids right from wrong and why people like this man are not someone you should aspire to be friends with, or someone you should seek out ways to identify with...
When a young person feels that people like these are their best options- or someone to be held up as an example- there parents failed...
in my opinion :)
They just dont understand the basic concept of right and wrong...
NOT GOOD VERSUS EVIL...
Charlie is not an Evil Monster
But he is a very bad guy
He hurt many people and used many people and not anyone who ever helped him could trust him...
Until he was put back in the can for good- with no hope of ever leaving...
now he is just a nice old man...
a Skinny Santa Claus lol
Just pray he never comes down your Chimney lol
And someone correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it Stovitz who actually pointed out the whole White Album thing to Bugliosi in the first place?
How soon will AC be on the radio archive?
I think AC was on last night...
heard she did real wells for herself :)
Katie, Catherine Share had a revolutionary background before ever meeting Manson, and Susan Atkins was involved with the very hedonistic Church of Satan. Tex Watson was involved in drugs and theft before ever being involved with Charles.
They got high, and talked each other into killing people. Nobody needed to coorce them.
Maria, if you're a teacher, you'll find that the instigators of bad behavior can't instigate with "good" kids. Tell a good kid to go steal the chalk, or whatever, he's gonna say no. The bad kids will do it anyway, instigated or not.
Personal responsibility.
Katie, Charles shot Crowe with a great deal of provocation, including threats to a girl that Crowe had kidnapped.
Charles has actually sponsored black inmates in prison with college programs and so forth.
Re Brian's radio interview...
Youse guys can play a drinking game.
Toss down a shot of whiskey each time I say "Uuuummm".
But that's exactly my point AC...
"Bad" kids instigate with other "bad" kids...hence Charlie being able to sniff out the evil lurking within Tex, Sadie, Pat, Leslie and the rest of them...
With all due respect, you negated your own theory here.
I would really like to hear your views on nature vs. nurture though. There is an intensive study that was just taking place at Columbia University in NYC,(my alma mater...)where the right frontal lobe in the brains of dead psychopaths are being analyzed. There is significant evidence that there is a deformity in this area of the brain which affects the ability of individuals to empathize, thus rendering them impossible of feeling for other...that is until they are "nurtured" in the right direction by parental love from an early age...
Any thoughts?
parental responsibility...
now there is a thought :)
I agree...it's all about parental responsibility in the end.
Any moron can father a child, and any idiot can become pregnant...it's raising that child that becomes a challenge which many individuals just end up leaving to the child itself...and this goes for the educated as well as the un.
It's just so easy to abstain from handing down consequences and following through when it comes to raising children, especially nowadays with the traditional family all but gone.
I could go on an on, but I won't. Being both a teacher and a parent I see this every day, only I'm a bit of a hard-ass on my kids. They know not to mess with Mom.
Yet when we look at Charlie and his minions...Charlie...well he had no chance from the time he hit the ground. Susan...well, she lost her mom at a crucial time in her life and had a father who all but ignored her..but the others who figured into Tate/Labianca...Tex seemed like the All-American..lettered in sports, parents still married...although I hear his mom was a piece of work which might have something to do with his hatred of women..(overkill on Abigail Folger...)
But both Pat and Leslie came from seemingly normal backgrounds. Go figure...
Maria, Charles was sitting at home at Spahn Ranch, minding his own beeswax, when the bad kids went out and committed murder.
You can't tell me that someone is capable of hypnotizing, or brainwashing, or coercing, or bullying, someone else into lawless actions when they're THREE COUNTIES away.
Gypsy Share continued illegal actions for years after Charles was imprisoned. Ditto Linda K. Drugs, credit card fraud, stealing guns. So, what, Charles was "influencing" them still? Com'on.
Personal responsibility. They perpetrated crimes because they WANTED to. Nobody twisting their arms.
How can nurture influence the size or shape of one's brain?
If that's true, parents with autistic children are somehow to "blame". Balderdash.
I understand when someone is too mentally challenged to not comprehend right from wrong.
Susan, Tex, Patricia, Leslie and Linda chose to commit murder. Nothing to do with their mommies. Nothing to do with any brainwashing from any guru. Personal choice.
AC those are great points- but what I ( at least me ) am saying is that maybe if they had better parents...
they would have made better personal choices...
and had Charlie had better parents- he wouldn't have been having sex, and giving drugs to underage girls... or shooting anyone in the belly for that matter...
although Tex had it made- so who knows lol
I guess aqll I can promise for sure is that I mostly liked my parents and I am not going to shoot anyone in the belly....
OK.....
no sex or drugs with underage girls either....
:)
Hey - everyone be good...
I am off on my own Manson Tour....
going back out to California for my Birthday for a couple of weeks to look for all the roaches and half full bottles Liz and Matt and Patty left at some of the scenes...
plus have a few friends to see of my own :)
Back soon and cant wait to revisit the Golden State for a closer look...
I give you all my word...
if absolutely nothing else...
I will find the Col's missing house painter....
;)
AC....the human brain is in a constant state of change. It can grow and change shape. All I am saying is that there is some evidence that with proper parenting and nurturing, the direction of a person's life can change, regardless of what that person's frontal lobe situation was. If Charlie had been given the opportunities that some of us have had, who knows how he would have turned out.
Unfortunately, history speaks for itself. Like ST. said, Charlie is not a good or nice person. He has wasted his life in prison because of the crimes he has committed. Whether he was an accessory to a murder or for passing bad cheques and pimping...he is still a criminal. Any potential he may have had has been completely wasted.
Even in prison, he is constantly written up for the poor choices he continues to make.
And, bottom line...he was at the Labianca house. He walked in and tied Leno and Rosemary up with leather thongs that he had been wearing.
Why would he have been there if he hadn't intended for some harm to be done? Why restrain them? Makes zero sense.
Please! He was not three counties away. Charlie Manson returned to Spahn's Ranch in the afternoon of Friday, August 8, 1969, with Stephanie Schram, in his Twinkie Truck...the same truck the girls used to drive to Sears later in the day...where they got themselves arrested for stealing.
When Charlie arrived at Spahn's Ranch that Friday afternoon, he was greeted with the news that Bobby had been arrested for Gary Hinman's murder.
Your innocent Charles was back to Spahn's Ranch in plenty of time for the Tate LaBianca murders.
Late Saturday night, he walked in the LaBianca house with Tex Watson and tied up Leno and Rosemary Labianca, then he walked out and left those people with Tex and the girls...killers he was aware had slaughtered five people the night before. Your innocent Charlie thought he was beating it by leaving before Leno and Rosemary were killed. He was wrong...too stupid to know the law. Please stop rewriting history.
He is where he belongs until the day he dies. The question is why...why did these people suffer and die this way?
If the traffic ticket was available, it would simply show he had plenty of time to be back at Spahn's Ranch on the afternoon of August 8. It's my understanding his copy of it was found tossed in the Twinkie truck when the girls were arrested that Friday night trying to get away from Sears after using stolen credit cards. I will get a source on that, not that it matters because you'll either spin it ridiculously or not address it at all...what you do when confronted with evidence you can't rewrite.
Regardless, a traffic ticket received a hundred miles away is not a three day alibi for Charlie Manson. He wasn't three counties away when seven people were butchered August 8-10, 1969 and he wasn't three counties away when Donald Shea was ambushed, beaten, and stabbed in the heart til he was dead, and he wasn't three counties away when he sliced up Gary Hinman's face and left him with Beausoleil, who ended up killing him.
He is not an innocent man...he is guilty as charged. The question is why.
How does Jefferey Dahmer fit in your parental guidance theory?
By all facts he had a great chidhood and was loved and nutured.
Same with Ted Bundy, also the same with BTK, The Green River Killer, Dean Corll and more I am sure.
Dont you know some people are just born evil, and all the guidance and love in the world won't change that.
I'm not disputing that some people are just born evil. I honestly believe that evil is evil is evil...I have seen evil in children and that is particularly scary. All I'm saying is that this study shows that proper parenting and nurturing MAY change the direction of someone's life.
And I have to agree with you Marliese.
I have said over and over that too many individuals, at different times, with different affiliations to Charlie have pointed the finger at him and given the same story...each and every one of them have corroborated each other and this is without any prior knowledge of each other, and without being "led" by Vince Bugliosi.
And Charlie himself being at the LaBianca scene...speaks volumes. He took off because he didn't want to get his own hands dirty. He led his stupid minions there and let them do all the butchery.
And what about when they were all on trial. He actually used to be able to meet with Susan, Pat and Leslie (never would be allowed now, nor would their press conferences)to discuss "strategies"...this is where he conned them into taking the entire blame for the murders...and where he got them all to perform their shenanigans during the trial.
And of course, my personal favorite....when the claimed that Linda was the mastermind...
Dear Sharon Tate Circumstance: Patty never leaves her bottles half empty, so you will just have to buy your own. More power to ya because Patty cannot afford Cakebread anyway. Have fun!
All due respect to AC, because she is always respectful and polite, but this is exactly what scares the living daylights out of me and I'm sure out of many others...
That people can be supportive of Charlie, in any way, is completely incomprehensible to me. Prior to Tate/LaBianca, the man was a criminal. Then came August 1969. Even in prison, he consistently gets himself in trouble with violations.
If we look at the various interviews with him over the past years, his stories change every time. He speaks in unintelligible riddles, does whatever Ninja moves come into his mind, and gives the crazy eyes stare.
Unfortunately, society has made him into the pop culture hero he is. No doubt the continuous interest in this case has fueled this fire, but not nearly as much as those individuals who regularly inflate Charlie's ego by supporting by writing letters to him, wearing T-shirts with his image on them, and supporting ATWA, his "brainchild".
I am in complete agreement that the environment and the air, and the trees, and the water, and the animals all need protection...but there are other, kinder, gentler souls without huge criminal records and who currently don't reside in prison who can be emulated in their devotion to this cause...i.e. The Canadian, David Suzuki...
And while I agree that all of these ATWA creatures need protection, I am first and foremost for the protection of human life. Who protected the victims of Tate/LaBianca on those nights in August 1969? Who protected Shorty Shea? Who protected Gary Hinman? (Didn't Charlie slice of his ear with a sword?????) Who protected any others out there who were victims of the "Family" led by Charlie?
The evidence speaks for itself. Charlie is not a nice guy. He's a violent offender, and regardless of his age and time served, and regardless of his devotion to ATWA and his intelligence...he was at two crime scenes where horrible murders were committed. He was on Sharon Tate's property several months prior to her murder. He knew the layout of Cielo as did Tex which is why he sent him there.
I will say it over and over again...there are just too many people telling the same story for any other theory to be remotely plausible.
Hi Bobby,
XOXOXO to you too.
Marliese wrote "Charlie Manson returned to Spahn's Ranch in the afternoon of Friday, August 8, 1969, with Stephanie Schram, in his Twinkie Truck...the same truck the girls used to drive to Sears later in the day...where they got themselves arrested for stealing.
When Charlie arrived at Spahn's Ranch that Friday afternoon, he was greeted with the news that Bobby had been arrested for Gary Hinman's murder." Fact.
Hi Marliese ! Hope all is well ! Great to see your posts again ! I think you are the only one I recognize from the old crowd,lol
Maria, I think the point that may elude you is, you have never met Charlie in person, right?? As we all know in his prime he was very charasmatic and had the ability to win people over. We have all read the stories of the numerous famous people he was able to charm. Does that mean he can charm anyone? probably not, but he did seem to have a uncanny ability to accomplish it most of the time. jus my 2 cents
Although I have never had the "pleasure" to meet Charlie, I do understand what a charismatic character he once was.
And I believe that this charisma is what helped make him into the master manipulator he is.
The most important issue here is, what is HomeTown Buffet ?
@maria master manipulator ha ha to an already damaged psyche i.m sure he could deliver the goods. If you think this con had charisma, i got a bridge by the Golden Gate i will sell you cheap! ever listen to this non sequitur spouting messiah speak? maybe he could answer one pressing question, what is HomeTown Buffet?
Ah, Uncle Gilly...you are back.
I said that I agree that Charlie was charismatic. He did manage to garner quite the "following" if you will, and amongst them, some of the rich, famous and talented of Hollywood.
I did not say that I found him charismatic. I find the wee creature quite repulsive actually.
Might I suggest some capitalization and punctuation, and might I suggest Golden Corral Buffet over Home Town Buffet?
@ maria, lack of punctuation does not invalidate my point( comma) but the fact that is your best rejoinder( comma) certainly invalidates yours! i don't expect you to add much more ( comma) not from your previous track record ( exclamation point)
@ maria: howz things love? answer me this maria, what is home town buffet?
Hello All. I'm new to this blog, and synchronistically just read something that speaks to the discussion you're having here.
Have any of you ever read the Susan Atkins' "Myth of Helter Skelter" section on her website? I think it was posted after her death, so may be new to some who have visited her website previously.
Obviously, it must be read with a discerning eye and a realization that there is likely some degree of "blame-shifting" happening, subconsciously at the least, on Susan's part or on her husband's part. It's an interesting read if you have the time (it's about 100 pages long). Here's where to go:
http://www.susanatkins.org/03-Stories.html
I'm of the belief that Rudi allowed William to stay in the guesthouse due to William's rumored large endowment. As a gay man myself, I can tell you for certain that Rudi was indeed playing on my team. William was not the brightest tool in the shed and after living in L.A for 20 yrs, I can attest to how easy it is for even the straightest of men to become "flexible" Bi-sexual or gay-for-the-right money. Hollywood is full of this duality. Furthermore I believe that William was involved with supplying or arranging for casual drug transactions. William saw and/heard what was happening that night. The lights to the guest house HAD to have been on, to say nothing about the loud music playing. It is not implausible to believe that William was tweaking or still under the influence of whatever during this time and either, turned out the lights and hid in the guest house or hid out behind it, in the bushes or hillside. There is much more to this story than we are being told. Reputations and careers were at stake.
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