Sunday, March 16, 2008

Barker News


In something out of the TWILIGHT ZONE a living blue whale was located at Barker Ranch in Death Valley.



____________

Graves Possibly Found on Manson Ranch

JULIANA BARBASSA,Associated Press,
AP
Posted: 2008-03-16 19:18:38
Filed Under: Crime News
DEATH VALLEY NATIONAL PARK, Calif. (March 16) -- Bone-white stretches of salt, leached up from the lifeless soil, lay like a shroud over the high desert where a paranoid Charles Manson holed up after an orgy of murder nearly four decades ago.

Now, as then, few venture into this alkaline wilderness -- gold-diggers, outlaws, loners content to live and let live.

But a determined group of outsiders recently made the trek. They were leading forensic investigators searching for new evidence of death -- clues pointing to possible decades-old clandestine graves.

And the results of just-completed followup tests suggest bodies could indeed be lying beneath the parched ground. The test findings -- described in detail to The Associated Press, which had accompanied the site search -- conclude there are two likely clandestine grave sites at Barker Ranch, and one additional site that merits further investigation.

Next step, the ad hoc investigators urge: Dig.

For years, rumors have swirled about other possible Manson family victims -- hitchhikers who visited them at the ranch and were not seen again, runaways who drifted into the camp then fell out of favor.

The same jailhouse confessions that helped investigators initially connect the band of misfits living in the Panamint Mountains to the gruesome killings that terrorized Los Angeles hinted at other deaths. Manson follower Susan Atkins boasted to her cell mate on November 1, 1969, that there were "three people out in the desert that they done in." Other stories surfaced. In the absence of bodies, they were forgotten.

"We prosecuted Manson and the family for all the murders we could prove. But you know, could he have killed someone else? Possibly. Could another member of the family have killed someone? Sure," said Steve Kay, a former deputy district attorney.

Last month, equipped with cutting-edge forensic technology, the investigators assembled in the ghost town of Ballarat for a 20-mile ride in all-terrain vehicles to the ranch.

The team included two national lab researchers carrying instruments to detect chemical markers of human decomposition, a police investigator with a cadaver-seeking dog, and an anthropologist armed with a magnetic resonance reader.

Also in the group were a woman whose life was forever marked by the cult's brutal murder of her pregnant sister, and a gold prospector who was once Manson's closest neighbor and remains intimate with the sharp creases of the Panamints.

An Old Hand Helps Out

Prospector Emmett Harder guided the expedition.

He had a claim on Manley peak, one of the jagged points looming over Barker Ranch, while the Manson family camped out there in the late 1960s. He shared dinner with the band at times, and gave the men work.

During one of these visits he heard Manson say, "We're not hippies; we're here to get away from the troubles of the world."

Later, Harder would learn more about the cult leader's belief that the end of the world, which he called "Helter Skelter," was near -- and Manson's conviction that through murder, he had a role to play in accelerating that chaotic time.

For the last 5 miles of the rugged gravel road from Ballarat, the route tilts sharply upward as it enters narrow Goler Wash.

"The family's plan was to make this impassable -- you can see how you could do that here," said Sgt. Paul Dostie, a police detective and dog handler from the town of Mammoth Lakes, pointing to the boulders that protrude like bones from the canyon walls. Any of them could be rolled into the wash, blocking passage.

Barker Ranch was one of several hide-outs used by Manson and his followers.

The killings that launched the cult onto national newspapers had been orchestrated from Spahn Ranch, a former Western movie set that served as backdrop to episodes of "Bonanza" and "The Lone Ranger."

It was to Spahn that the killers initially retreated after the 1969 murders of Gary Hinman on July 31; Sharon Tate, Jay Sebring, Voytek Frykowski, Abigail Folger and Steven Parent on August 9; Leno and Rosemary LaBianca on August 10.

This was to signal the start of the apocalyptic race war that Manson told his followers would pit blacks against whites. He preached that they would emerge from the desert at the end and rule over the survivors.

But a daybreak raid on Spahn Ranch on August 16 by Los Angeles sheriff's deputies looking for car thieves netted 26 arrests. All were released a few days later on a technicality -- a misdated warrant -- but Spahn was no longer safe.

Barker Ranch was where Manson withdrew in those last, frenzied days.

Tate's Family Never the Same

Retracing his steps nearly four decades later, the search group stopped at the dilapidated house. From the porch, the view was clear for miles, broken only by the long twisted stems of creosote bushes and knee-high bunches of desert rabbitbrush.

"After the murder, my mom became a shell of herself," said Debra Tate, who was 17 when her sister, actress Sharon Tate, was killed. Her younger sister Patti was 11. "I filled in at home, as best I could."

Debra Tate's mother, Doris Tate, emerged from years of depression when she heard that a Manson family member was seeking parole.

She gathered 350,000 signatures, helping keep the murderer in prison. She also lobbied successfully to change state law to ensure the rights of victims' family members to make statements during sentencing and parole hearings.

Doris Tate died in 1992. Her youngest daughter Patti followed in 2000. Now Debra Tate, 10 years younger than the glamorous, doe-eyed Sharon, whom she grew up admiring, attends the parole hearings alone.

"My mother specifically asked me to carry on," she said, adding, "It's my life."

She has given herself two tasks, she said: making sure her sister's killers never go free, and helping other families find the peace that has eluded her.

"If there are bodies here," she said at the ranch, "we need to find them and send them home."

About 100 yards behind the house, Dostie readied his trained dog, Buster, for the search.

"Go find Fred!" Dostie said, releasing the dog on the command that sends him searching for human remains.

The dog bounded away, zigzagging over the terrain. Then he lay down in a depression in the ground, quivering, ears upright. Buster looked at his trainer and emitted a high-pitched whine.

"He's alerting," Dostie said, throwing the dog his reward and planting a flag on the site.

Searchers Bring in Equipment

Meanwhile, Arpad Vass and Marc Wise, senior researchers from Tennessee's Oak Ridge National Laboratory, were readying the first of the instruments they'd brought, capable of chemically detecting evidence of decades-old human bodies. It was a hand-held device shaped like a gun.

"It's a crude sniffer," said Vass. "It gives us a quick indication of areas we want to come back to."

The machine detects fluorinated hydrocarbon compounds, one of the approximately 400 types of volatile organic compounds emitted by human bodies during decomposition. Focusing on these compounds is important because Vass believes they're formed as the fluoride added to urban drinking water is released after death.

Their presence helps differentiate a human bone from bones from wild animals, explained Vass, who has spent years developing a decomposition odor database using bodies donated to the Oak Ridge lab.

The instrument beeped at regular intervals. As it approached the ground, the beeping accelerated until it was a steady stream of sound.

"That's impressive," said Wise, a senior researcher at Oak Ridge specializing in environmental analytical chemistry. Vass agreed.

Using a thin, 3-foot long probe, Vass tested the soil in the area. It slid into the ground without much effort.

"Undisturbed soil isn't this easy to probe," he said.

"The loose soil area is roughly like this," he said, using the tip of the instrument to draw a long oval on the ground. "It's about three feet deep."

"We need to do an IR," he said, turning to Wise.

He was calling for the next piece of machinery -- larger and heavier, but more specific. It could be calibrated to detect different compounds, using technology known as infrared spectroscopy to "read" a particular molecule's profile.

"We're getting the highest hits here, where the ground is soft," said Wise. "There's definitely something down there," he said. "We just can't know yet exactly what until we dig."

"Or who," said Vass.

The men crouched close to the ground, gathering three samples of dirt from each area of interest for further analysis using more finely tuned lab equipment that could not be brought into the field.

The group broke for lunch. Dostie shared bread and cold cuts in front of the ranch house where Manson was finally arrested, in October 1969, after being found crammed in a bathroom cabinet.

Afterward, Daniel Larson took up his part of the investigation. The head of the archaeology department at California State University, Long Beach, Larson has used Ground Penetrating Radar and a magnetometer -- an instrument that can peer 12 feet into the ground -- in archaeological work and to help find mass graves.

At Barker Ranch, he took 2,025 readings of the ground at the suspect site, stopping every four inches within a 26-by-20-foot grid, looking for discrepancies that indicated earth had been moved.

"What I'm looking for is the pit, not the bones," he explained.

He'll have to return later to use the Ground Penetrating Radar. The soil still held some moisture from recent storms, and that could disturb the results.

Prospector Recalls Runaways

Watching the scientists do their work, Harder spoke of his memories of the Manson clan -- the churlish, armed young men, the pretty girls with blank, doll-like expressions.

"I didn't feel real easy around them," he said. "They picked up all kinds of people -- hitchhikers and stuff."

He particularly remembers two teenage runaways who escaped the ranch, then stopped at a nearby mining camp for food. They had enough fear in them to make it out of the rugged mountains barefoot, said Harder.

They turned themselves in to the California Highway Patrol at the mouth of Anvil Springs Canyon -- booked as Stephanie Jean Schram, 17, a runaway from Anaheim, and Kathryn Rene Lutesinger, 17, runaway from Los Angeles, on October 10, 1969.

"Both females stated that they were attempting to run away from 'Charlie' the leader of the 'family' and that they were afraid of their lives," read the CHP report.

Their fear was well-founded. Following the police raid on Spahn Ranch in August, Manson and the family killed ranch hand Donald "Shorty" Shea for "snitching" and buried him out there.

That body wasn't found until more than eight years later.

"I dug it up myself," about a quarter mile behind the ranch house, said Sgt. Bill Gleason, a now-retired homicide investigator with the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department.

"There were rumors of other deaths, minors killed out in Death Valley," said Gleason, who took part in the original Spahn Ranch raid. "We just didn't have anything concrete to link to the Manson family."

The runaway girls didn't know how close they'd come to becoming another one of these rumors.

The day the runaways turned themselves in, CHP officers headed to Barker Ranch for the first of what would be two car theft raids.

On their way, they arrested two men -- booked as Gary Milton Tufts and Randy J. Mourglea -- whom they found asleep at the mouth of Goler Wash, a sawed-off shotgun between them. They were from Barker Ranch, CHP said.

When told of the arrests, both girls told officers they believed the armed men were sent "to stop them from walking away," according to CHP's report.

Were others less lucky when they tried to escape?

Searchers Want to Dig Deeper

Vass said that, considering the quantity and the types of markers of human decomposition found, the cadaver dog's response, and the probing exercise, he found enough evidence to warrant further testing at a deeper level and a full scale excavation at Barker Ranch, according to the report he issued to law enforcement.

"I'd recommend a dig, excavate the sites," said Dostie, who reviewed the report.

But if a body is found on the Barker Ranch, then what?

The likelihood of a new prosecution appears slim. Locating remains would just be the first step, said Patrick Sequeira, the Los Angeles County deputy district attorney who has been in charge of the Manson family parole hearings since Kay's retirement.

"You have to tie them to someone who has disappeared, and there were a lot of people floating in and out of the family environment who were runaways, or hiding out," he said.

Then investigators would have to find out who killed them, where, and who could testify, he said.

The Manson family members currently in prison are already serving life sentences -- the maximum penalty allowed at the time the crimes were committed.

Still, Sequeira did not discourage the efforts of the crime scene re-investigators. "I'd love to see them put something together," he said.

102 comments:

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Yellow journalism at its most jaundiced. "Bone white, lifeless, shrouded"... jeeesh.

This piece deserves the "It was a dark and stormy night" award for the most wretchedly tortured metaphors ever utilized in a supposedly non-fiction article.

But it certainly has infused the psyche of Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Public. Today, my business partners intercepted me outside my store, and gently informed me that the authorities had actually *found* numerous bodies buried at Barker... and that Charles had confessed to five additional murders. This is apparently how the televised reports made it sound! Influential, and inaccurate! Caused me a few breathless moments, 'til Dave looked up the story online... and discovered the cheesy pseudo-factual story posted herin. How irresponsible to present such blantant speculation as fact!

Must have been a slow news day at FOX television. Save your money, don't pay the cable bill, rent a video game instead. It's certainly much more reality based than this so-called "news" report.

deadwoodhbo said...

AWESOME!!!! Col thank you

Pristash said...

It's not called "Faux News" for nothin....

LilMagil said...

It must be true... TMZ is runnig with it!

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

An impassioned plea: Anyone else who writes to Charles (this includes our gentle readers who do not actually participate in this discussion) PLEASE politely remind him that any statement he makes about anything can be cut, pasted, edited, twisted, and taken out of context, and used to incriminate. "No comment" is best, yet helpful reminders concerning ATWA would be cool, as well. Perhaps he can implore Katie Couric to stop using bleach.

I am writing as well, yet my letters are apparently being perused for up to four weeks by Our Friends in Law Enforcement, specifically the Investigative Services Unit, who seem so very impressed by my writing style, that they are holding my mail for intense scrutiny. While I find this quite flattering, it doesn't help me to convey urgent messages in a timely manner. Carrier pigeons would be faster. Thank you so much, in advance!

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Don't shoot the messenger.

NOTE: Could you please pass this post onto ColScott because this is something that might be of interest. Thanks.

Legal Question for ColScott ....

The "White Rabbitt" claims to have been "On the Scene" when at least one of these murders took place and personally witnessed the murders; an incident involving 3 teens (2 guys and 1 girl). He also claims to have helped "Dig the hole" in which the bodies were burried along with a little help from his friends, Bruce Davis and Susan Atkins. He also claims to have personally "Carried" the bodies that were dropped into the hole and then "Covered" the bodies with dirt. In other words, the White Rabbitt was up to his neck in blood and is an accessory to murder.

My question is "Is the immunity agreement that the White Rabbitt signed still valid?".

Being that the dig that took place in 1998 turned up empty because Larry "Deliberately" took the Inyo County Sherrifs Department personnel to the "Wrong" location, my feeling is that this immunity agreement may no longer be binding.

If Buster and the other fart sniffing, I mean Cadaver sniffing dogs, actually do turn up a hole that contains the bodies of 2 teen guys and 1 teen girl, I wouldn't want to be in the shoes of the White Rabbitt because he openly confessed to participating in a murder and his words are on record. He may very well be facing charges in connection with these murders.

blipcrotch said...

I would note that the progression of this story is as follows: KNBC television news in Los Angeles ==> a month of silence ==> BIG AP NEWSWIRE STORY ==> Every Local Paper in the US, Yahoo News, the internet in general ==> Cable TV.

This is typical, and showcases the awesome power of the full AP treatment in the creation of "national news". The cable networks are usually at the end of the chain, and represent the final breakout of a story. They don't want to waste scarce resources on untested stories.

LilMagil said...

I know this wasn't asked of me but I thought I would give my two cents....As for the immunity agreement, it would depend largely on the wording of said legal document...Also, it could be argued that he was mistaken as to the exact spot of the burial. Actually finding bodies might infact validate WB's claims...

Heaven said...

Why is Debra even there? Any bodies that they find (if they ever do) aren't going to have anything to do with her.

=)

FrankM said...

Heaven

Debra is there because it is her mission to keep all people remotely connected with TLB locked away as long as possible and do everything in her power to find more reasons to keep them there. It’s probably what keeps her alive and gives her life meaning.

She has made an advocacy out of this and is IMHO subverting the legal system by coercing the public into signing petitions and supporting campaigns in which they are presented with 'facts' that are at best loaded and at worst a travesty of the truth.

And apparently she is allowed to do this since her mother caused changes in California State law. To my mind her actions undermine due process - not because I want any of the murderers released but because I believe that the law should not be persuaded by public opinion - which can be so easily molded by demagogues like Debra (remember Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar: Friends, Romans, Countrymen …I come to bury Caesar not to praise him .. ).

For me the rot set in with the beginnings of victims’ rights – no doubt well-intentioned but this has brought about many unforeseen circumstances. The relationship of victims’ rights to justice is now somewhat akin to that of Wikipedia to academe – justice (or knowledge) by consensus.

And I opt out. And I think I’ll go and sit on a hilltop somewhere for a few hours to cool down.

Frank

angeLos said...

The connection is TEX WATSON, he killed her sister with a little help from his friend CHARLES MANSON, and she has all the right in the world to be up there and try to investigate/understand and show the world how much this "family" was a phony family and perpetual selfish liars.
They both probably tortured and killed other peoples in the Panamints Mountains, people like SS who were just in their ways...and strange that Stef. S. took off scared to death with KL from the desert and alerted the police... could it be that CM was not such a nice man ?

Heaven said...

I have no problem with her being up there if that's what she wants to do.. I was just curious as to why..

=)

deadwoodhbo said...

Oh think twice, its just another day for you,
You and me in paradise

Heaven said...

Great!

Now that song will stick with me all day LOL

How you doing Becca? I hope all is well with you..

Is that you in your avatar?

=)

augusteigth1969 said...
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Heaven said...
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FrankM said...

Awesome post, August.

You have a way with words, a charitable outlook and a real concern for the human condition.

I am impressed.

Frank

augusteigth1969 said...
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FrankM said...

My mother would wash your mouth out with soap, August. I myself would merely comment that foul language is no substitute for reasoned argument.

This blog has been a pleaseant place for quite a few months now, and the only outbursts have been yours. Go figure.

Have a good day.

Frank

augusteigth1969 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
FrankM said...

OK, August, you win. Clearly blog members prefer your style of contributions to mine. I'll take my ball and play elsewhere.

Sorry to the rest of you for starting a flame war - the best way I know to kill it is to chill.

I'll leave you to August the sockpuppet's edifying comments. Maybe you'll enjoy his contributions more than me. But it's not really my scene.

Frank

LilMagil said...

Q: Shut your festering gob, Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, coffee-nosed, maloderous, pervert!!!
M: Look, I CAME HERE FOR AN ARGUMENT, I'm not going to just stand...!!
Q: OH, oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse.
M: Oh, I see, well, that explains it.
Q: Ah yes, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor.
M: Oh, Thank you very much. Sorry.

Heaven said...

Frank, you really should learn to ignore the stuff that doesn't appeal to you...

Col Scott allows freedom of speech here and you have to take the good with what you consider the bad..

It's not like August posts here on a daily basis.. So his posts shouldn't really be all that difficult for you to skip over.. I could understand your frustration if he was flooding every topic with his kind of posts but they are very far and few between..

Just my opinion.. Have a good evening!

=)

augusteigth1969 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Marliese said...

Frank, what's up with you? You're all wound up about victim rights and then another, isn't this the third? announcement that you're picking up your toys and leaving.

Censoring August on a blog that doesn't belong to you doesn't really fit with "i disagree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it"...

FrankM said...

Heaven says:

Col Scott allows freedom of speech here and you have to take the good with what you consider the bad..

I agree. But think this through, Heaven. If August has the right to say what he wants then I, Frank, have a right to be heard too, without being called a 'whining bitch'? If August finds my posts distasteful then he should skip them, right, rather than having a temper tantrum? The difference is that I express my views quietly while August sounds off like he sat on a lighted firecracker.

But is there not more at stake here? Assuming that we are all adults on this blog (I sometimes wonder) can we not be expected to behave as adults. Read back through the flame wars when Salem, Savage et al and their multiple sockpuppets were wreaking so much havoc – you were part of the receiving end and were insulted worse than most, online and offline. And the consequence was that Col had to control membership and effectively curtail freedom of speech. I think you’ll agree it was not pleasant. Are you suggesting a return to that would be desirable?

So let’s not go there again, right. And my call for us to be civil to each other is hardly radical, is it? I’ll go further than that, I suggest that I am not the only one to feel that posts that gratuitously describe people as: big fat slob … fat cow … nasty fucking cunts ... serve no useful purpose, while attacks on named people because of their appearance such as … fat bitches of the world ... their life sucks being that fat … no one loves them … they should strangle themselves now … are not just hurtful but abusive, and would constitute grounds for reprimand in most social contexts. I wouldn’t accept that in my real life – why do I have to accept it here.

Frank

deadwoodhbo said...

Hello Heaven ,yes the picture is me i did those glamour shots LOL ,i dont look like that 99% of the time.I hope your doing well and i also hope Frank stays with us,i forgot all about augest however i must state at this time im one of those fat bitches of the world and plenty of people love me i dont think i will strangle myself just yet lol.

FrankM said...

I love you too, Becca - fat or thin. And I'm not going anywhere, not for the moment. Thanks for caring.

Heaven said...

Frank,

Yes you have just as much right to be heard. Personally I find the whole thing with August and "various others" quite entertaining. It's really funny to know that people are still obsessing about stuff that the rest of us involved have moved on from..

So why don't we just forget about this latest flare up and give them the attention they deserve... Zero lol

Becca that is a gorgeous picture! You are a very beautiful girl!

Fat or thin, I like ya just the way you are... Rock on girlfriend!!

Hiya Marliese, how ya been?

Have a great day all!!

=)

FrankM said...

Thanks, Heaven. You're a good 'balance' to have around and I value you for that.

No nice words about my pic though - think I'll go back to the last one.

Love and kisses

Frank

FrankM said...

Marliese said...

Censoring August on a blog that doesn't belong to you doesn't really fit with "i disagree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it"

In my defence, Marliese, I will say the following:

Firstly, I was not censoring August. What I was saying that his message – such as it was – didn’t need to be expressed in such an offensive way. This is not censorship, which would be blocking or attempting to block his message; merely a request for respect for the rest of us who don’t especially enjoy such abusive language. Within the realms of what is lawful, August has as much right as any and all of us to say what he wants. Whether what he has to say is of interest is for each of us to decide.

Secondly, when quoting Voltaire I was supplying the source of what AC had semi-quoted. I personally do not agree with this pov - I would not, for example, lay down my life to defend freedom of speech for supporters of Al Qaeda who attempt to recruit young men and women to be suicide bombers for their cause. Nor, I submit, would most of us here.

As for taking my toys elsewhere, this is my prerogative. If I am with my family in a public place when one of the people present waxes lyrical about nasty fucking cunts I would almost certainly move out of hearing, but it does not mean I would never go back to that place. I would just wait until I felt comfortable returning.

We might like to ask August just why he feels the need to write like this. I remember from my schooldays the bullyboys who would cover ignorance with aggression, confuse strength with power and lash out blindly at what they saw as ‘weak’ (crying in his mommys lap), ‘different’ (you are the only one whining about it), resorting to taunts about mothers (does your mum .. ?) or replying to what they are simply unable to understand with inappropriate generic mantras like bitch, which, stripped of context, are wholly ineffectual and therefore have little or no perlocutionary force. Perhaps August simply hasn't grown up?

And now back to work.

Frank

augusteigth1969 said...
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augusteigth1969 said...
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Heaven said...
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Heaven said...
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blipcrotch said...

OK people, AP is still hitting this story hard: now we actually have some new information, at least new to me:

The story

Dostie is now claiming that he believes former Inyo sheriff Gardiner, was told by Dianne Lake about bodies at Barker. The reporter actually made a half arsed attempt to contact her by phone to confirm. The story also states that there were other experiments done last month indicating the presence of graves. Is it just me or is the AP agitating hard for a new dig?

blipcrotch said...

Oh, and BTW it looks like they are re-opening the Tennerelli suicide case:

"Fillippo Tennerelli was found dead in a motel room there on Oct. 1, 1969. At the time, the death was ruled a suicide, but at the behest of Dostie and a relative of one of Manson's victims, police are now reviewing the case to find out whether he really killed himself."

Looks like Debra is claiming that she was told there was a drug dealing link between him and the Family...

Just reading in between the lines and all, I would say Debra has been busy. Maybe she's worried someone is going to walk unless the pot gets stirred.

LilMagil said...

Well katie's parole hearing is scheduled April-June-ish.. so she may be gearing up. Loading up her arsenal (so to speak)... time will tell.

Marliese said...

Hiya Marliese, how ya been?

Have a great day all!!

=)



Hi Heaven!

Thanks for asking. Been busy!
In and out of town, home now through, April I hope.

And you?
Happy Easter Heaven, and everyone.

~Marliese

Marliese said...

FrankM said...

Secondly, when quoting Voltaire I was supplying the source of what AC had semi-quoted. I personally do not agree with this pov - I would not, for example, lay down my life to defend freedom of speech for supporters of Al Qaeda who attempt to recruit young men and women to be suicide bombers for their cause. Nor, I submit, would most of us here.


~ Well Frank...I was just wondering because you used the "I don't agree with what you say but will defend your right to say it" phrase long before the recent credit to Voltaire as the author...back when you first came to the blog, I think in response to something AC said. So of course it's selective... ~

As for taking my toys elsewhere, this is my prerogative. If I am with my family in a public place when one of the people present waxes lyrical about nasty fucking cunts I would almost certainly move out of hearing, but it does not mean I would never go back to that place. I would just wait until I felt comfortable returning.

~ Of course it's your perogative. Point was I find it silly when people announce that they're leaving...a blog. ~

We might like to ask August just why he feels the need to write like this.

~ We might? Not me. This reminds me of the conversation we had not long ago when delete delete went after you elsewhere and you came here with civility reminders ...supposedly for August, but at the time August hadn't been here in weeks.

So yes...back to work. And Happy Easter Frank.

Marliese said...

August, awesome post and thank you for understanding.


~Marliese

Marliese said...

'he drove past spahn ranch once'...


Priceless. LOL.

augusteigth1969 said...
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A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Now the authorities will try to pin every unsolved murder in CA during the period from 1967 to 1972 on "The Family"! And the news media will lap it up like dogs after vomit (sorry, another canine metaphor).

FrankM said...

Just out of interest, does anyone know how many people were ever up at Barker/Myers at any given time. I know people dropped by Spahn all the time and it was a magnet for runaways but Barker is not exactly on the beaten track.

These 'hitchhikers' - I can't see they were hitching up Goler Wash. Were they picked up in Ballarat? Cos there wasn't much traffic passing Barker.

So, are we talking about a family ocupation of any meaningful period of time or just a few days here and there with a scattering of 'resident minders' to keep an eye on the place?

Maybe someone knows ?

Frank

Heaven said...

Happy Easter to you as well Marliese!!

Hiya to Monk too if he's hiding in the shadows.. I miss ya!

=)

Heaven

deadwoodhbo said...

FrankM said...
Just out of interest, does anyone know how many people were ever up at Barker/Myers at any given time. I know people dropped by Spahn all the time and it was a magnet for runaways but Barker is not exactly on the beaten track.
What a great point and question Frank.

augusteigth1969 said...
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FrankM said...

Atmospheric quote from Lyn's Journal (1969):

We are at Barker's now, sneaked in at dusk. It feels good here all in one room, all in one circle. We're dusty brown and smoothly tough, with cactus cut hands of lizard scale and sun. The feeling is animal, of wind and rough ground under our feet, and real. We can't stay here at Barker's. There's too many of us. We are hunted. So tonight we dig."

Dig? Well seems they dug two 'caves' into the side of the hill that faces Barker. Photos of these show wood and camoflage tarps hung over the outside. All gone now, unless Buster finds them too.

Anyway, seems that that night at least there were quite a few people up there. I get a kick out of trying to reconstruct in my mind what life up at Barker was like for those guys. Spahn I can see my mind fairly clearly, and there would have been a fair amount of coming and going. But it really was pretty remote up in DV.

For what it's worth, local guide Steve G - who lives nearby and probably knows the area as well as any, and checked the whole ranch over closely with his father a couple of weeks after Charlie M was busted - thinks it's very unlikely that there are any bodies there.

Frank

LilMagil said...

I would like to read some of that journal. What is the source?

FrankM said...

To tell the truth, Lil, although I quoted from Lyn's Journal (you'll find the same quote on many Internet sites) I don't know where Lyn's journal is or even for sure that she kept one. So much about this case is hearsay.

You can use wayback to go through her old site (even find quotes from her book there and a few photos) but wayback is hard and time-consuming to use and may not have what you want anyway.

The site was at http://squeakyfromme.org - wayback access at http://www.archive.org/web/web.php

But I'll pass on this one. I quoted it because I liked the atmosphere - reminiscing about Barker always gives me something of a frissant.

Frank

Brian Davis said...

Hello ! Heaven, Marliese, Pristash, Jean Harlow, 60skid, Deadwoodhbo, FrankM, A.C.Fisher Aldag, Agnostic Monk, to all others who I dont directly know but have read your great posts, and, certainly not least, our truth pursuing host, The Col !

Its been a while for me. I hope all has been well with all of you !

I'm doing some backreading of the OTLM Blog here but this "Barker News" story is too interesting for me now than to wait until I catch up especially since the Col has posted about this twice now.

By the way, Col, thanks for posting this from the beginning because I know you think this story is pure crap yet you give us the opportunity to make up our own minds about it.

And by no means is this story legit now just because "BIG MEDIA" picked it up but it is cool that we here at the great Col's blog knew of this story way before FOX News ever did.

Speaking of which....
I may be in the minority here but, even if they cant pin any found remains on Manson and family, I just feel if there is any chance that there are bodies or remains of victims out there then that alone warrants a dig.
And I personally think based on what we know, there is reasonable possibility , arguably possible cause to dig.
Wasted tax money ? PUH-LEEEEZE !
We waste tax money everyday. Why single out a remote dig as "wasting tax dollars" ?

If not wasted tax money...then why not dig ?

And A.C. - Don't forget we have a bet running on this. I'll have to look back to see what we put up for grabs but I know we took it.

Thanks for the time and it's great to see everyone again, drama and all !
And as always, Thanks Col !

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FrankM said...

Aaay, August, so many sockpuppets around these Manson sites it makes my head hurt.

Not so sure no one can trace you though. Your IP can monitor your traffic for a start if inclined (or instructed) to do so. And law enforcement is getting quite sophisticated - assuming they have a reason to want to find someone.

But I'm sure none of us have got anything to worry about if we lead decent lives. And if we don't, hey, maybe we were asking for it anyway.

Happy Easter from someone who has only ever been

Frank

Heaven said...
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deadwoodhbo said...

Brian Davis said...
Hello ! Heaven, Marliese, Pristash, Jean Harlow, 60skid, Deadwoodhbo, FrankM, A.C.Fisher Aldag, Agnostic Monk, to all others who I dont directly know but have read your great posts, and, certainly not least, our truth pursuing host, The Col !

Happy to see you joined the crazy team.

FrankM said...

Hi Heaven

A bit of perspective (thanks to you) and I'm much better, thanks.

What I meant about the IP was that if someone knows who you really are, then they can trace your activity. Dunno about blogger/blogspot but some sites can reveal your DNS info when you have a dedicated IP. I know this because I used to have a dedicated IP and was 'traced' on IRC by someone through whois (long story, nothing I'm ashamed of, no repercussions).

I now have a dynamic IP number with a server in another country so would guess I'm pretty safe.

The other route is to do what AC does - admirable, really. And prolly better if you're packing (Hi AC).

Frank

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Heaven said...
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Heaven said...
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LilMagil said...

Wasn't there some discussion, a while back,that the bodies(if there are any) could also be from old Indian burial? Makes getting permission to dig quite complicated...

FrankM said...

It's actually possible to use something called 'forensic linguistics' which can do a stylistic analysis of texts and see if they are written by the same hand. You need quite a few texts to compare but the results are quite good. Isn't this how thay caught the Unabomber, Theodore Kaczynski (how do you spell that?)

Also on a blog people (like me, Marliese!) tend to get repetetive and forget what they've written. Or have the same pet peeves or passions (LVH could be either).

Maybe delete delete knows what he is doing ...

Frank

Marliese said...

Brian Davis said... Thanks for the time and it's great to see everyone again, drama and all !
And as always, Thanks Col !



Great to see you too Brian.

I wonder why it's taken so long for these questions about bodies at Barker? Back in 1970, wasn't Sadie blabbing her mouth about murders they'll never find?

If anything, maybe this renewed interest and even the remote possibility of other victims will keep the women from sympathy with their political prisoner lawsuits etc.

Marliese said...

FrankM said...
It's actually possible to use something called 'forensic linguistics' which can do a stylistic analysis of texts and see if they are written by the same hand. You need quite a few texts to compare but the results are quite good. Isn't this how thay caught the Unabomber, Theodore Kaczynski (how do you spell that?)

Also on a blog people (like me, Marliese!) tend to get repetetive and forget what they've written. Or have the same pet peeves or passions (LVH could be either).

Maybe delete delete knows what he is doing ...

Frank



Guess I have an acute visual learning style Frank, and your writing is so fluid with visual detail that it's very easy for me to retain what you say...even if I don't always understand.

Aside from learning styles, I remembered your response to AC because it was so...appropriate.


~Marliese

Marliese said...

FrankM said...
It's actually possible to use something called 'forensic linguistics' which can do a stylistic analysis of texts and see if they are written by the same hand. You need quite a few texts to compare but the results are quite good. Isn't this how thay caught the Unabomber, Theodore Kaczynski (how do you spell that?)



Haven't they tried to identify Zodiac that way also?

LilMagil said...

That's why, most likely, there aren't any bodies to be found. I'm certain the authorities would have taken this much more serious in the day had they believed there were. After what happened it was not out of the realm of possiblilites..that's for sure. My take; this drums up publicity and doubt for any upcoming parole hearings..but then again who knows.. never say never..

FrankM said...

Hi Marliese

I think with the Zodiac it was a little different. I seem to remember they had samples of handwriting and were trying to match the orthography.

What I mean is that on the one hand we can analyze the content (grammar, style, tendency to favor certain words, etc.) and on the other the actual handwriting (orthography). Certainly we can identify many people by their handwriting but I would have thought the Zodiac was too smart for that.

As for Bruce Davies being the Zodiac (I know no one brought this up but hey, why not, Bill Nelson was sold on it) one good reason it won't work is that any theory linking Bruce to the Zodiac murders would have to explain how he knew about (and used) radian angles.

Not many people know about the use of radians in angular measurement – at least before the Zodiac killer popularized them - they only occur in advanced Math and as far as I know neither Brucie nor any other of the Manson people had any knowledge of Higher Math.

If you have no idea what I'm babbling on about (and if it interests) check out http://www.mikecole.org/zodiac/two_theories/1.2/

Frank

Marliese said...

FrankM said... As for Bruce Davies being the Zodiac (I know no one brought this up but hey, why not, Bill Nelson was sold on it) one good reason it won't work is that any theory linking Bruce to the Zodiac murders would have to explain how he knew about (and used) radian angles



Regardless of circumstances, I don't know how anyone in their right mind could believe for a minute that Davis is Zodiac. He's too dumb to be Zodiac.

FrankM said...

Well there is that too :-)

Frank

Heaven said...

LOL Marliese, that's a very good point....

=)

LilMagil said...

I Know I asked this before...anybody oder Hendrickson's "Inside the Manson Gang" DVD...? Can't order it here in Canada.. Col, he's used your comments/critique on his site..any chance you can "swing" me a copy?'Lil..

Heaven said...

I have it and it is AWESOME!! Some of the best footage on the Manson family yet...

=)

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deadwoodhbo said...

Lordy Lordy Lordy i really hate the phase Charlies people Charlies family its most anoying:P:P:P:P.

Heaven said...

August, just ignore them..
They're not worth the aggravation..
Their combined IQ's must be a couple of points above a carrot...

Join in and discuss the happenings at Barker with us and forget all about them. Once you forget they exist, your life just feels so much cleaner lol....

Hey Marliese amd Frank, any thoughts who the Zodiac killer may have been?

Happy Easter all..

=)

Heaven said...

*and rather


=)

FrankM said...

HEAVEN:

Don't know enough about the Zodiac case, really. And just as Bugliosi and Sanders have obfuscated the evidence in the TBL case with rumour and conjecture a man called Robert Graysmith has done the same for the Zodiac case.

You'd have to go back to the evidence - much of which has not been released and seems impervious to FOI requests.

But it does seem the killer will have been someone with military (naval) connections, training in trigonometry and map-reading and knowledge of ciphers beyond the simple substitution type. The 340 code seems to have structure according to military cryptoanalysts yet nobody yet has been able to crack it. Why, even I tried :-)

Perhaps the most interesting question is why did the Zodiac killer stop. Conjecture is easy enough: personally I think probably he achieved his objective or realised he was unable to (but of course have no idea what the objective was).

But hey, this is a Manson blog.

BECCA:

I know that winds you up, sorry, just couldn't think of another way to say it. Perhaps I should have said 'the people around Manson in Spahn and Barker at that time' - would you accept that?

Frank

Heaven said...

You make a lot of good points Frank.. I really haven't read up on the Zodiac killer to even attempt to wager a guess on who it could be..

This seems to be a decent site
http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/

I have seem a few other places that rule Davis out as the killer. Any evidence to suggest Davis was the Zodiac killer is way too flimsy..

The killer had a crew cut during the time of the murders and Davis had long hair. They also checked the handwriting of the Zodiac to that of Davis and they weren't alike..

It seems there was a time when they blamed every murder on someone associated with Manson...

=)

deadwoodhbo said...

BECCA:

I know that winds you up, sorry, just couldn't think of another way to say it. Perhaps I should have said 'the people around Manson in Spahn and Barker at that time' - would you accept that?

Frank

7:36 AM, March 23, 2008

Frank silly i wasnt talking about you just so many sites on the net in general.When fomme shot ford she took any hope of freedom Charlie ever had away,NO!!!! He does not consider any one of those people His family

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FrankM said...

August

Yes, anyone can make a blog - and it's very simple. What's not so simple is to attract people to it LOL.

Stay with us, August, and forget these nasty people, whoever they are - they can't be doing your health much good and they're clearly not worth bothering about. You'll find ignoring them a far more powerful weapon than responding to their jibes and taunts.

Chill with us here about other stuf on a blog where we all try to be friendly and respectful. The Col is a cantankerous sob but has his good side and as you won't get flamed here you won't get so wound up.

In peace

Frank

Heaven said...
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FrankM said...

Hey, who took a bet on those human remains? AC, better start saving up your money ... looks like pay out time may be round the corner.

Or maybe it's Don Juan the Yaqui Indian who just lay down for a century or so ...?

I really don't know what to think now. You guys all still as cynical, or are the cracks of possibility now showing?

Frank

deadwoodhbo said...

What the hell will they all do when Charlie dies?????Lordy what will Debra tate waste the rest of her useless life on?.Oh and Emmett Harder same question what will you do when you cant ride the coat tails of charlie anymore ^*&*&&&)*& these people are total LOSERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!yes i am mad

Jean Harlow said...

happy easter to all ... special "hi"s to Monk, Becca, Heaven and Brian Davis.. and Frank too...

I wonder what people like Susan, Patricia, Leslie and Tex as well as Bruce and Steve Grogan think about this news story? Are they nervous or just rolling their eyes ;)

deadwoodhbo said...

good to see you jean.Talking of monk where did he go?

agnostic monk said...

hi everyone! *winks at deadwood* miss you guys, I haven't had a chance to catch up lately, but I wanted to drop in quickly and let you know that I just saw an ad on CNN for Nancy Grace's show tomorrow. Looks like she'll be devoting some time to the Death Valley dig story.

Ain't it funny seeing this pop up in the mainstream media when we've been rehashing every little detail about this case in our own little corner of the interwebs?

I'm gonna try to watch (I tend not to be able to stomach Nancy Grace for more than 5 minutes) but definitely wanted to pass the info along...

oh, p.s. Heaven and I are also the same person, in case you were wondering : )

Marliese said...

Hey Marliese amd Frank, any thoughts who the Zodiac killer may have been?


Hi Heaven, not really except I do believe some of the theory that maybe he had a split personality...the resentful killer personality needing fame and notoriety. And interesting that as brilliant as he was with the ciphers, he slipped up a few times with the crimes, left a partial print once or twice, got close to being caught after killing Paul Stine, left victims alive etc...

The split personality theory believes the healthy personality eventually emerged full time and suppressed the killer, horrified at what he'd done. I don't know.

I think Graysmith believed Zodiac was Arthur Allen, yet when they finally got dna, his didn't match.
Graysmith's books are unreadable though so I can't really remember if he still thinks so...

deadwoodhbo said...

I just watched entertainment tonight with mary hart,and they said the most ridiculous satement i quote "we have reports manson is getting beat up by other prisoners"NOW!!! if the media is saying crap like that what eles are they posioning our minds with??Charlie is not getting beat up,in fact most inmates in His unit look out for Him.
Its totally upsetting to me that these issue's at barker ranch are being brought up for the dam glory of debra tate{the ugly skank]and low down assholes like Emmett Harder who need this story to sell his useless book.
You all know on this site how i feel about Charlie and for the people that know the Charlie behind the media mask its upsetting to see these people still have to attack a 72 year old man for their own glory and 5 minutes of fame.
Thank you Col for doing the story on this blog about barker ranch.
And thank all you other team players for putting up with my outbursts:P:P:P:P:P.
WOO HOO Monk is back.

FrankM said...

Hi Jean - good to see you back. You too, Monk.

Take it easy, Becca - life is too short to burst a blood vessel every time a news program comes out with arrant nonsense. And you'll need to take it easy, as there's a lot more coming.

For example, Manson is inevitably referred to nowadays as a 'killer' - by Nancy Grace in that latest clip on Bret's site, for one.

So Becca, accept that the real world knows damn all about Manson and TBL, and be magnanimous - or you'll be having a rough few weeks! Pour a glass of red and chill (not the wine though).

Love and kisses to you all, and again Happy Easter

Frank

Pristash said...

Happy Easter to all from me too. I tried to post Saturday, but my internet signal was spotty.

deadwoodhbo said...

Frank you rock!!!!! .I wonder where AC is????? anyone heared from her?

Marliese said...

Becca, that happens with much of what the media reports, not just Manson. They take one incomplete thought and run with it as the subject for an entire story and then that one idea takes on a life of its own. Sometimes it's just bad reporting...not enough research, or taking study results out of context...and sometimes it's pure sensationalism of a groundless idea. And it's revolting that they're rarely held accountable.

We need to do our own factual research for a lot of what we hear on the tv and read in the papers whether it's about crime, politics, health etc etc

deadwoodhbo said...
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deadwoodhbo said...

Sorry Col it was me

Heaven said...

LOL Monk!!!

Ya gave away the secret!! Yup, Monk and I are one in the same LOL

Hiya Jean, good to see you posting again!

Thank you Marliese. I'm going to read up on Arthur Allen and see what I can find out...

=)

deadwoodhbo said...

dam i had to post to make it 100 posts:P

Marliese said...

Heaven...just a book recommendation, if you want to read up imo 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' is better than Graysmith's books. They're all pretty technical...with the ciphers and psych analysis, but Graysmith's books are much more tedious...i can't get through his writing style without losing interest, and Allen's finally been cleared as just a wannabe i think.

The suspect, supposedly from Eureka, Calif...an old man that hasn't been named yet, just a code name, looks really interesting. He bolsters up the zodiac is still alive but retired from killing theory. Also, the author of This is the Zodiac Speaking discredits a lot of Graysmith's stuff...he'll give a few words to something Graysmith spends an entire chapter talking about. With all of the books though, the detail about the murders is tough to hear...a lot like TLB that way.

Pristash said...

You can read the transcript of last night's Nancy Grace with Bugliosi and Debra Tate at cnn.com