Saturday, March 10, 2012

Fighting Cretins with Soy Sauce













I was working on two pointed posts for you all

One was about Winifred Chapman. In the brilliant new book Restless Souls I learned she had been with Sharon and Roman before Cielo. It got me thinking how terrible that morning must have been for her.

The second was a work of art called "The Ballad of NotSharon", about a member of the Tate Family who wanted attention that went to her much more beautiful sister.

Then Robin Olsen, maybe acting on behalf of Debra Tate (maybe not, I had heard that Debra had wised up to Robin's craziness) started posting releases on the bullshit website that only her dogs read.

This is gonna take all weekend, fixing her lies and bullshit. Shit and I had a Mani/Pedi all set.

But for now, while you try to wade through this, use logic

-Debra Tate was disowned by her Family
-Patti Tate's legal wishes were for her children to be raised by Alisa Statman, NOT her own sister.
- Gruff Paul Tate was happy for his grandchildren to be raised by Alisa Statman
- Paul Tate didn't want his daughter to get any family items so he sold the Family home to ALisa Statman.
- Patti's own daughter is stating that she doesn't know her aunt AT ALL.

Use logic. This is insanity from Olsen with attention seeking from Debra. Nothing more. The book remains amazingly moving.

Robin and friends (if any)- You have declared war. That's fine. Nelson did that and he was ruined and died alone.

Here's what's next for Robin /Deb- if you don't know what I mean dear readers, they do-

-- The full report made by Debra and Robin to Paul to try to get Alisa removed from the Family. A more hateful work of homophobia have I never seen. It is subhuman. Both ladies are scum.
-- The permission from Roman Polanski TO Alisa Statman allowing Patti's Burial at Holy Cross
--The history of Robin Olsen's stalking of Paul Tate and attempts to attack ALisa.
-- News of pending litigation to remove Debra's false filings claiming ANY ownership of her sister, along with research into possible criminal allegations
--Revelation that Paul Tate wanted Statman to speak in his place at the Parole Hearings- NOT his daughter.

It's all coming Robin /Deb. You had to attack a very good book that really did honor your family because they refused to force you into it somehow. Have fun with your lifelong "trough" pass to Hometown Buffet. We are gonna fill you not with buttermilk but with truth. We will answer your "lie detector test" questions and present a bunch of questions we have for you to answer.

Ready. Set. Here we come Orca.



----------------
Vera Dreiser is Robin Olsen. Robin Olsen is a cunt. A liar. Psycho. A filthmonger. And she makes bad sandwiches. Now the Bible says something about Cunts- I am not sure what. Over here , cunts may still post but under their real names. So Vera may either use the handle Robin Olsen, or just plain Cunt. Anything posted under Vera Dreiser will be deleted or ignored. I am asking the support of the evilliz people, which has turned into a fine place to go, and I know I have Cats' support. The inbreds at Lynyrd Skynyrd are too inebriated to follow this shit anyway.

Act unconcerned Robin Olsen, your shit has real world consequences.

188 comments:

Matt said...

I just knew that MSG was at the root of all of this!

LisaRoweSocio said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Panamint Patty said...

Vera, you crack Patty up when you start talking censorship. Like, you don't have a voice? Like it is being suppressed somehow? In this highly electronic age, nothing could be further from the truth. Eviliz does not censor, we edit. LOL

Go get 'em, Col.

leary7 said...

I;ve always been intrigued by Vera. Sorry the comment got deleted. But we all know the Col is Limbaughesque in his intolerance of dissenting opinions. It is part of his charm.
Fairness has never been a big part of the Manson story, even on the blogs.

ColScott said...

Leary
My other readers would disagree. I could give a fuck that anyone agrees with me.
Vera Dreiser is Robin Olsen and she is saying criminal stuff I intend to work on making her one of the homeless. Since she has an agenda her right to anonymity is surrendered. She can post anything as Robin Olsen. Vera Dreiser is PNG.

leary7 said...

sorry Col, I believe you when you say you don't give a crap if someone agrees with you - but you do come across as a warrior who takes unbrage with those who hold what amount to "idiot views" in you eyes. I have nothing but respect for that and enjoy it immensely when you go to town on such fools, even when said fool is myself.
If Vera is Robin and you are exposing truth may the winds be with you.

leary7 said...

umbrage

leary7 said...

Well, I find Manson somewhat charming too, so don't go by me.
I just have a weak spot for obnoxious zealots I suppose.

Cheap shot at Lynyrd's crew, Col. As I said, you just seem hellbent on offending for offending sake sometimes. Really tiresome. Not part of the charm.

leary7 said...

As a relative newcomer to the Manson blogs (a couple of years) I am curious about where allot of the old time posters have gone to. I went back and read the archives and there were allot of interesting folk not just on this blog but on others as well who seem to have disappeared. Sorry Vera, but your conclusion that folk just got tired of the one-sidedness of the blog ruler doesn't seem to explain it fully. Maybe interest in TLB has just run its course. Maybe everything that can be said has been said so all we have left is idiot nonsense like this Alisa/Debra spat.
And that, Vera, is why I do appreciate the Col even if I disagree with his sense of ettiguite at times. He does keep things lively.

leary7 said...

ettiquite

leary7 said...

damn it....etiquette

ColScott said...

leary
Lyn appears to be the only place on the web to pick up those bullshit press releases. The only place.

So I was saying they was inbred and drunk.

Otherwise they are dangerously stupid.

Panamint Patty said...

Yo, Colonel, Sir. With the utmost respect, Patty must assert that everybody's got a right. Yours may not be the right forum, but that is your choice and the choice of your readers. This freedom of expression is what (still) makes America great. Peace.

Matt said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
leary7 said...

It seems like such a Twilight Zone request....the one made by Manson bloggers that we all exercise civility.
But weirdly enough, in watching Manson tapes on youtube it does seem he exercises his own brand of civility. But then that is insane, assigning civility to man who ordered at least nine murders.
Anyways, it seems to me the Col is for the most part widely respected for his knowledge and zeal. His propensity for uncivil comments however does both detract and distract.
Some documented proof please, Col, that Vera is this Robin person. She has asserted point blank that she is not. Let's put this matter to rest once and for all.

Magpie said...

Why do people insist on issuing "lie detector challenges", and moreover why do they claim some sort of moral victory if the challangee declines? Everyone knows that lie detectors are bullshit--Christ, even the courts stopped accepting them years ago. Refusing to take a lie detector doesn't have to mean anything other than the person not wanting to waste an entire day on complete bullshit.

Matt said...

Vera Dreiser said...

I'm talking to you, Matt, and you, Patty. Cowards.
Leary, he'll never prove I'm Robin -- nor allow my challenges to him to try to remain up here -- because he knows good and goddamn well I'm not.


You have never been censored because of the substance of your comments. You were censored in the past because of your tone. I'd think after a while you'd pick up on that but you haven't.

These days you are deleted on site because of your inability to comment in a civil tone.

Oh, and on a personal note, fuck you.

leary7 said...

yeah, that's it for me. And I wonder why Saint and others have fled the scene! calling others inbreds and drunks and cowards is just such juvenile crapola. And your explanation is beyond lame Col. Of course Lynyrd had to post Debra's statement. IT IS NEWS and he would have been ridiculously remiss not to share it with his readers.
I suppose it is silly and naive of me not to expect absurdly combative personalities on the Manson blogs, but it still sucks.

Panamint Patty said...

Patty read a book. Patty liked the book. Patty gets kicked in the cunt for saying so. Patty gets accused of taking sides, of being a nazi, a sheep, a coward. Patty tries to keep the peace but it seems nobody wants that, they want war!

Panamint Patty said...

Yeah, fuck all y'all. Patty's gonna go hang out in the cemetery with people who have learned how much their opinions matter.

(_*_)

leary7 said...

I have always wondered, Patty, if getting kicked there hurts as much for women as it does for me. Now that is a subject worth debating.

Vera Dreiser said...

Oh, "the tone." Like I, Vera, "the cunt...liar...psycho" set the tone on this site.
I challenge you, Matt, to find and repost those first-ever comments I posted on Evil Liz's site last week asking Alisa questions about her book and her commentary on the site and let your readers decide whether my "tone" was inappropriate. And my tone, if you hadn't noticed, only became one of outrage when my voice was silenced. I've never cared about being called names by a bully like the Col, or being told by the tone-police (Matt) "fuck you." I've always known that when people resort to vulgarities and personal attacks it's because you've caught them in their lies and errors.
So yeah, preach about "tone" and civility on Col. Scott's site, Matt. Makes loads of sense.
As I said, the hypocrisy is amazing.
Oh, and Patty, maybe I shouldn't have lumped you in w/ Matt. I just was disappointed that someone as obviously bright as you overlooked the stifling of free speech that occurs here and at Liz's forum. But whatever, people do what they gotta do. (and, sure, I know it's not "free" because it belongs to the Col here, but it should be free when the Col pretends to claim to be searching for the truth but blocks any truths that don't jibe with his).
Love and adios for a long, long time,
Vera

One World Pope said...

Vera Dreiser said...

>>>Leary, he'll never prove I'm Robin -- nor allow my challenges to him to try to remain up here -- because he knows good and goddamn well I'm not.<<<

Colscott won't have to prove anything because "Freaknasty" will :-)

Never say Never when it comes the Colonel.

katie8753 said...
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Louise said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
starship said...

Oh man, first my weight, and now I'm an inbred drunk. My self esteem is indeed at a new low.

starship said...

Oh, and I guess I'm too stupid that I didn't even mention...that I'm stupid.

starship said...

Ok, so back on subject:

I'm not done with the book yet, I'm so stupid I guess I read too slowly, so I want to reserve comment for now other than to say there are indeed some issues which are problematic. Again, to be addressed after I finish it and reflect for a bit.

But it is absolutely shocking, that the Col, who is widely respected for his encyclopedic knowledge of this case, that he would not have known before he read this book that Winifred Chapman had worked for Sharon and Roman before Cielo...that really isn't a fact which entails too much effort to uncover. So I wonder if it has any further significance. And, yes, discovering the bodies must not be any fun, but I bet she was treated more like The Help than as a family member. Seems to me Roman treated almost everyone as The Help.

bobby said...

Matt...Thelma and Louise was taken down about 10 days ago or so. I took it down. Funny you say you're suing me,

So sorry to hers this Louise. Why in the world would you be sued by Matt ?

Starship said "Oh man, first my weight, and now I'm an inbred drunk. My self esteem is indeed at a new low."

As one of the very first memebers I take it as a real red badge of courage. Inbred & drunk & a Member of LSB3, time to get a tat.

bobby said...

Suze said: "The inbreds at Lynyrd Skynyrd are too inebriated to follow this shit anyway."

"Bwaahahahahahahaa!!!!!"

I am so glad you you enjoy my red badge of courage. We can all be Suze, look so good and be so smart and ci=ontribut so musch ne & exciting research as you do Suze. LOFLAACFDS>

LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...

Leary, Starship and Bob... you guys are the best.

There's just no other way to say it.

Your Inbred... Dangerously Stupid... Leader,
Lynyrd

One bourbon, one scotch, and one beer for everyone!

: )

Janson2112 said...

Not sure WTH Leary7 is talking about, but then again I dont think he does either. I know I am new to the Col blog, but from what I have seen he DOES post dissenting ideas and posts, but he also points out how and why he feels they are wrong. I very much enjoy these post, Unlike yours Leary7 that tend to be long winded without any real information or thoughts to share. But then again I will follow the Col's advice and not read your boring post anymore.

Matt is that your real Pic? swear I know you from somewhere.

Louise said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Janson2112 said...

matt said;
You have never been censored because of the substance of your comments. You were censored in the past because of your tone. I'd think after a while you'd pick up on that but you haven't.

These days you are deleted on site because of your inability to comment in a civil tone.

Oh, and on a personal note, fuck you.

HAHAHAHAHHAHAAHA, damn I missed all the fun, teach me not work so many hours!
Ya know I am mainly interested in the truth on this case, but it is fun sometimes to read postings by crazy people to relieve the monotonamy, Yup Im talking about you Vera, Leary7, Mr. Poirot.

Janson2112 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Panamint Patty said...

Pass the soy sauce, please!

prefeteria said...

Dear Col Scott,

If you were in Debra Tate's shoes, and your little sister was being seduced by someone who had previously lived at the Cielo Drive guest house and associated with Bill Nelson, would you not be just a teeny bit suspicious? Regardless of whether that person was a man or a woman?

Pref

starship said...

Perhaps you think I selected my picture of the back of my head as my avatar because I don't want anyone to know who I really am? Well, sort of. I was very proud of my ponytail and wanted to show it off. Also, if you saw my face you would have absolutely no doubt about how inbred I am indeed.

But all of us could truly be as beautiful as Suze if we really wanted. All we have to do is right click.

ColScott said...

Prefeteria

I haven't been able to do full posting yet. Chemo is like that. Suffice to say yes I agree with you, I THOUGHT THAT when I met Alisa.

But you know what - LIFE is weird. Alisa could have been "into" the case like I am. She joins with Nelson (a lot of people joined with him at first, including Doris and BUG remember) but like everyone heads for the hills after a few meetings. She has the "liberated" pictures (you cannot steal stolen goods by definition) and wants to give them back TO THE PARENTS. Patti is a chance meeting- and here is the billion dollar question which for me ends the subject- how the hell would Statman know that Patti was gay, or at least bi? Married with a trio of kids. Very beautiful. Seriously, Lisa is magnetic and fun and smart but there is no way should could think to herself "I am god's gift to Lesbians so I am going to turn this innocent woman and she will be mine." Nonsense. She never would have thought for a minute that Patti was interested because Patti wasn't.

Also, Debra Tate only wanted to get her mother and sister's jewels, she never once gave shit about Patti.

Dickhead said...

Neck beards. More brilliant research at Eviliz. What is Alisa thinking?

Suze said...

Your Avatar has a neck beard and is shaped like a penis. Oh, and your name is repulsive. Brilliant.

leary7 said...

you know, you're not liking my posts, Janson, is like me not liking your shoes. Who gives a crap.
I have been upfront since I started posting here that I am a freshman in terms of TLB knowledge. I post because I like conversation and I have become fond of many of the regulars like Liz, Matt and Patty and over on the other team Lynyrd, Katie, MattP etc. I even like and enjoy those who I have argued with, folk like the Saint and the Col and Dickhead etc.
Clearly you suffer from anti-social tendencies and apparently get your jollies demeaning and belittling others. I know I should not be surprised to find angry, rightous anti-social idiots on a Manson blog, it just makes me sad to think someone's life is so miserable they have to insult others in order to feel good about themselves.

Matt said...

Yes, Janson it's my real pic.

And Suze, NO FIGHTING with Dickhead. LOL.

Proteus said...

So many people posting nowadays who have no knowledge of anything. Col knows (as I do) that Vera Dreiser is Tom O'Neill, he whose book seems destined never to appear. Why Col accuses Vera of being Robyn Olsen is beyond me. What Tom's game is is equally obscure.

Hope the Chemo works for you, Col. I'm beyond that now.

P

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

I'm confused, and no, I've yet to get my hands on the book, so please, give me the Cliff Notes version.

I take it that Alisa and Patty were married (or would've been, darn CA laws) and Alisa had custody of Patty's children and administered her estate?

I gather that Debra was upset about that arrangement?

And THIS is why Debra's making a stink about Alisa's book?

And Robin is Debra's representative, or used to be?

Explain it to me, please; I'm slow.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Vera, you've attacked me, and others, viciously and without reason. So yes, I see why others are editing your comments. Disagreeing is one thing, name calling quite another... you've dished it out, and now you're getting a helping back.

prefeteria said...

It seems that the blog and forum hosts, and the regular contributors all have their own hidden agendas which those of us not in one of the cliques can only guess. Is there a future history of the Manson saga yet to be written? Are we goiing to be a part of it?

Or are things still being obscured today on purpose?

These crimes were committed for some reason. Is it dangerous to get too close to the truth?

bobby said...

Explain it to me, please; I'm slow

I think you summed it up pretty good AC

After Lynyrd posted Debra/Olsen response the Col called him and his blog members drunken inbred idiots.

some others agreed with him and piled on a little.

Some members of lynryds blog made lokes about themselves.

I think the Col. should be more confident that people can hear two sides and decide for themselves. As wrong as he beleives Debra & Olsen to be they are pertinant to the issue.

bobby said...

Col, Sorry to bother you with questions. However.

Do you know why Bobby & Barbara eliminated all the correspondance on their web site ?

Have you heard anything new from Bobby ?

Thank you for considering these questions.

bobby said...

I feel obligated to say hey, anyone who would like to comment here please just ignore my two post and move please & thanks.

James said...

I have always wondered what Debra did that could have caused Paul and Doris and Patty to disown her, although I have saw the Picture of Doris with President George Bush Sr and Deb was there. I have also wondered by Paul is not buried with Sharon and his wife and daughter.

Panamint Patty said...

Yo Colonel, a post a day keeps the Dr. away. Where you at?

maria said...

Ok, I loved Restless Souls, but I'm wondering if there is anyone else out there who is noticing some real discrepancies in it.

No sides being taken here, as there now seem to be two camps with two different versions of this story, but both Patti and Doris (1990 Watson Parole Hearing) have gone on record numerous times stating that Sharon was 8 months pregnant at the time of her murder. Even Roman has done so.

So, where is Alisa getting her information that Sharon wasn't due until end of September, beginning of October? She says that she has Sharon's medical files...

I just assumed that a husband, mother and sister would be credible sources for information like this.

Marliese said...

A healthy pregnancy being 40 weeks, i don't think it makes a difference if Sharon was 34, 36, 37 weeks or whatever...the baby was near term, and suffered an agonizing death when his mother was brutally murdered by Tex Watson and Susan Atkins.

I read that Alisa said the family had gotten into the habit of simply repeating what was frequently being reported...eight months.

We'd have a better estimate of the baby's gestational age if the coroner had included specifics about his size in the autopsy report, such as his weight and length. A healthy fetus puts on significant growth in the last few weeks of a pregnancy, especially the last two weeks.

Maybe Noguchi did report his specific size... I just don't remember ever reading anything more than 'healthy near term baby boy' or words to that effect...

All things considered, i don't think it's a credibility issue ...not at all.

St. Circumstance said...

Well if you ask me...

lol

Martha Marcy May Marlene - or whatever it was called -

Was a very good movie...

Still not sure why everyone cares who everyone else is... So sad to decide to take a peak back in this world and see the same old nonsense.

fighting, attacking and whose who...


Sigh lol maybe just a little- I missed it :)

Anyway-

Happy anniversary to the drunks over at L/S

Miss you much Liz/Patty Matt

Marliese ;)

Keep stirring the pot Col- and I will keep coming back for a whiff of whats brewing....

"Absence weakens mediocre passions and increases great ones, as the wind blows out candles and kindles fires."

St. Circumstance

St. Circumstance said...

By the way...

there are many unimaginable things one could do to offend me or my senses...

but please

at the very least....

make me a decent sandwich lol

( Where does he come up with this stuff?)

Matt said...

Hey St, good to see you.

bobby said...

Hey St, good to see you

Dittos St.

Marliese said...

Saint! Where ever you've been, i hope you've been having a good time!

Come back soon and chat.

Uncle Gilly said...

Are there any pictures of Patricia Tate and her girlfriend getting uh well you know, close ? I'm just saying, you know for the sake of the investigation, don't leave any stone unturned.... so to speak!

Suze said...

You're disgusting.

Proteus said...

Gilly, you are everything that is wrong with the Internet.

Ps

Uncle Gilly said...

There is something wrong with the internet? lets see, you can talk about who polanski had sex with, bad mouth Sharon Tates sister, oogle ( where did she get that word ?) pictures of an 8 and 1/2 month pregnant woman ripped open and lying in so much blood, yet I am disgusting? hmm a little self knowledge goes a long way kids.

Uncle Gilly said...

I believe GNOTIS TE AUTON is the phrase I would use.....

Proteus said...

γνῶθι σεαυτόν (or nosce te ipsum) is a Delphic reminder to hold to your own views and not be influenced by others. Quite appropriate for this blog. But this is a forum for discussing what went down in the Manson-related killings in 1969, and lascivious and prurient comments on the activities of other people - including those alive and posting on this forum - are not really appropriate here.

I would go further, and sy that none of the things you mention are appropriate here, but this may be my sensitivity.

P....s

Uncle Gilly said...

@proteus Actually as to my comments not being appropriate on this particular post, yeah I am inclined to agree. trying to inject a little humor to a humorless crowd i suppose ,guilty !But i call you on the other comments I have left, here on at least 3 posts they are relevant and actually ask questions no one has answered ! show me their irrelevance, I am calling you on it !

Uncle Gilly said...

@ suze hi suze, any skunks get under your trailer this year? oops not relevant !

melee1969 said...

Hey Uncle Gilly. You rub me right. What say we have a night under the silvery moon? Just, you, me and Flipper?

Uncle Gilly said...

thanks alot Melee ,I am an expert swimmer and an ace knocking holes in the bottom of boats! your offer is intriguing, uh wait which one are you in the picture sonny or Cher?

louis365 said...

lol Melee

melee1969 said...

I'm not Sonny or Cher, I'm their pet Plesiosaurus.

Speaking of knocking holes in boats, have you heard of the Titanic? Who do you think felled that scow?

Yup....longevity is on my side.

Uncle Gilly said...

It wasn't me I have an alibi! but find who offed JF K and you got the guy who sunk the titanic boy!~ Hell to read some of the flakes on this blog maybe Manson had a hand in it ! cher is part pteradactyl isn't she?

Uncle Gilly said...

Oh by the way my definition of Pterodactyl for Cher is from the urban dictionary THAT type of pterodactyl!

melee1969 said...

I was talking about ME sinking the Titanic. Boy are you dumb.

You've killed my buzz......

melee1969 said...

I thought you were the big bad creature from the black lagoon, but you're nothing but a wounded crustacean.

Hisssssssssssssssssssss.

You hear that? It's the air going out of your tires.

Suze said...

Me, Myself & Irene strikes again.

Uncle Gilly said...

Hmmm gee cher me basically saying you would suck a long one yet I am deflated? re read if you can lol

Uncle Gilly said...

Hi Suze great hair, how many times do you have to be told don't sleep under your trailer!! still representimg Skanks for serial killers? or was it white trash welfare recipients for Manson? can never keep those clear !!

Janson2112 said...

Ok this has been entertaining, but now yall are in the way of my finding the truth, especially now that I see St C maybe back. So no one can post except
the Col, AC, St C, Liz or Patty,until I see the answers I need! maybe Matt too cause I'm pretty sure I know him, just need some more clues.

Uncle Gilly said...

@Janson Rush album .Hey. what truth are you after? oh if you notice an unholy stink in here it's just suze, and her welfare trailer park stench .Once she leaves crank a window and air the place out will ya? now lets talk Tate LaBianca!

Panamint Patty said...

S.O.S.

Suze said...

You are a lonely, pitiful man no matter which avatar or name you use. I don't hate you even though you are ruining multiple blogs. I feel sorry for you. I will no longer address you directly or indirectly but I hope you get help and find validation somewhere.

St. Circumstance said...

Sorry to interrupt the love lol

Here is something that was news to me..

a New Greek Tragedy themed novel about the Manson Case...

" Color of Night"


small except of above article :

To recast the bloody and sordid story of the Manson Family as a Greek myth featuring Dionysus, the Maenads and Orpheus — as Madison Smartt Bell does in his maddening new novel "The Color of Night" — is to make a daring and unsettling choice. To throw in 9/11 and a bizarre climax at ground zero in which the heroine, a Manson hanger-on and semi-mythical huntress named Mae Chorea, breaks into the site and soaks in the accumulated suffering the way a gourmand savors the aromas of a bakery, is to err on the far side of tastelessness.

The massively talented Bell has had anything but a conventional career; his works include a biography of the chemist Lavoisier, a book-length account of a long stroll up Baltimore's Charles Street; three volumes of fiction about the Haitian revolution; and his last novel, a not unadmiring fictionalization of the early career of Nathan Bedford Forrest, the Civil War's most bloodthirsty general and the father of the Ku Klux Klan.

It's not hard to see what drew Bell to the Manson story; he's always had a keen interest in atmospheres of mayhem and anarchy and the predators who flourish within them. "All Souls Rising," the first volume of the Haitian trilogy and a work of near-Tolstoyan sweep and comprehension, features many unforgettable scenes of sickening violence.

Read more: "Color of Night" recasts Manson Family as Greek myth - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/rss/ci_20285371?source=rss#ixzz1quO41b3k
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

St. Circumstance said...

Many of the events in the novel closely parallel the story of the Manson Family and will be familiar to anyone who remembers "Helter Skelter." The Family "creepy-crawlies" through the houses of the rich, spying on them while they are sleeping and rearranging their belongings. O___, the singer, is a stand-in for Dennis Wilson of the Beach Boys, who befriended Manson; instead of a Squeaky there is a Chunky and a Creamy. As in the Manson Family, there is much "free love," most of it coerced.

It was a commonplace at the time that the Manson Family represented the dark side of the '60s ideal of unlimited freedom. It is here that Bell finds a persuasive link between the bacchanalia, the orgiastic, female-led rites of the followers of Dionysus that often ended in savage violence, and this dark underside. In the '60s, the cult of Dionysus was portrayed as something unequivocally positive and liberating. The Manson murders, whose enormous cultural impact at the time is hard to overemphasize today, put an end to that.

As the tale progresses, the characters shed their human faces and show the masks beneath. Bell has always had a deeply pessimistic view of what motivates humans. Love and compassion are weak; the desire to hurt, dominate and humiliate are paramount. The murders, when they do occur, are powerfully evoked because they are described in such an offhand, prehuman way: "the knife hammed in her fist like a long bloody tooth and the singleness of purpose of a hunting animal." For the killers, there is nothing more than the relationship of the predators to their prey.

starship said...

Hey, St. Not to brag but....

http://www.lsb3.com/search/label/Color%20of%20Night%20by%20Madison%20Smartt%20Bell

St. Circumstance said...

lol- Well if it comes to a book on the subject- I should have known you had read it :)

I just came across this- didn't realize it had been around that long...

I will read your review...

St. Circumstance said...

by the way- both of my posts were from the review in the Denver newspaper- I pasted the link at the bottom of the wrong post....

it is not my review of the book- I have not read it yet- but Starship did and liked it- which is good enough for me

bobby said...

Thank you to St & Starship for providing substance to an otherwise wasteland.

starship said...

Yes, I too wish the Col would return. He said he was working on two posts, but then digressed. I was hoping there would be more meaty things to discuss.

Uncle Gilly said...

@ St circumstance One of the things so appealing about this case ( cases) is the EErie quality which lends itself to tibutary ways of thinking. like the occult connections, Sharon Tates alleged ghost sightings, Anton Lavey /Kenneth Anger connection et al !

St. Circumstance said...

I dont know if I ( personally) would use the word appealing... about these cases

in my case its more of a morbid fascination of the crimes combined with an intrigue of the times during which they occurred...

but it does interest me, so if interesting to me and appealing to me are the same thing- I wont argue semantics

Agreed though- all of those things add to the overall...

appeal... or whatever lol

there are many many fascinating intersections of many of the people involved....

As I have been out of the loop for a bit- I am just now getting to this new book- and I am sure I will come across some new things I was unaware of- which will only add to this sentiment...

bobby said...

Love you St.

Hope all is well with Lynryd , of course I'm sure it is.

St. Circumstance said...

So I started Restless Souls last night...

really this is my first flirtation with any information from people on the other side of this tragedy.

I have spent years listening to, and reading about the Dark people in this case who I dont understand or respect.

I have never taken the time to listen, or get to know - really anyone who was close to Sharon- other than Roman- whom I have no respect for at all... and Debra- but at the very least- she has had her own agenda in all of this. As much as she was doing any good for others- she seems to be just as interested in doing good for herself...

But I have never given much thought or time to Sharon's real inner circle before...

And for that I should be ashamed

I am happy and excited to go on with this book and remedy that now.

Marliese said...

Your compassionate perspective has been missed, St. Circumstance. Good to see you back on the blog again.

St. Circumstance said...

;) Marliese Thank you

Marliese said...

St. Circumstance, did you see Debra's rebuttal to the book? Reads like a foot stomping temper tantrum. I think anyway.

Marliese said...

Col, be well.

St. Circumstance said...

I have not....

St. Circumstance said...

I can imagine how it must be for her to know that anything about her family was put out without her participation... especially if some of us are right that she has enormous personal attention needs...

I haven't had much time lately to go back and catch up on posts...

So I am not sure if you have all tackled this stuff already- but I will read the book and Debras stuff and get caught up lol

COL- I have seen the last few posts and read the Cancer words- and seen Marlieses' comment to " be well"...

if any illness or bad health has hit your anyone you care about- I am very sorry to hear, and hope that everything turns out as well as absolutely possible..

The Tomball Three said...

O.M.G.

I am so happy to hear this. When I was a kid, I saw a preview for the Helter Skelter movie and I mean "Helter Skelter" -- it sounded like something fun to a kid! So I asked my mom about it and she said no, it wasn't fun at all. She told me all about Sharon Tate and how she wasn't allowed to have her baby and it stuck with me.

So years later, I am just .. I don't know trolling around the internet (it was new) and I ran into something called "Robin's Web" ... and I looked around for awhile. Some chick extolling her virtues on her baking and Maryland crabs. Then she mentioned Patti Tate and I found out Patti had just died. She had an entie page devoted to her - because they were friends ... I commented on it, just like here ... and you won't even BELIEVE the stuff she came back at me about. She callled me a loser and asked me why I spent my entire work day searching the internet about murdered actresses and didn't I have anything better to do. There was MUCH back and forth and I remember walking away from that feeling like I had done something wrong and I didn't even know what it was and I don't remember now what set her off.

But as years passed and I got older and wiser, and I remembered being schooled for the very first time online - I remembered her and googled her and WOW-EE the stuff that came up. Turns out years later SHE is the nutbag and the Tate Cyberstalker. HEY at least I didn't go out of my way to meet and befriend her dying sister.

and it CRACKS ME UP that now she's the one online - trolling around --- and she can't even use her REAL NAME.

St. Circumstance said...

Hey all...

I promised myself I would read the whole book and then read Debra's statements and then make judgment..

but after three chapters

I am feeling more than ever that Charles Watson and Roman Polanski deserve just as much attention as far as being the face of evil as Charlie does...
But He doesn't get a pass either...

Debra makes some points in her argument that register with me- but I am so immersed in this story right now, and so completely absorbed- that I will address that at a later time....

I not only want to finish- but NEED to finish this book and then try to figure out who is telling the truth about what....

This is a story that I feel in ways I am hearing for the very first time
....

I am sorry I waited to investigate this point of view...

but in fairness- these poeple were mostly gone when I came across the case- and it is very hard to know who you can trust and believe- when all of these people who were so close to it- disagree so strongly with each other...

it can be very confusing at times

and yet always it remains such a tragic and compelling story...

I want to understand

starship said...

So, it's Friday afternoon here in the east. I was hoping for a new post from the Col...to no avail.

102 comments though on a blog not very active Since March 10th. Pretty good.

St. Circumstance said...

Well - I have finished the book, and I just have to say this was an incredible read.... Incredible!

" Conjugal visits my ass" lol

Doris is my hero....

Patti sitting in Susan's parole hearing daydreaming about Sharon made my eyes misty..

This answered a-lot of questions for me...

and it also raised a few new ones...

But I am sure Col will address those shortly...

For now -my only comment on the state of the Tate family is that it is a very sad situation all the way around... and that is too bad- because EVERY one of them is a hero to me....

Obviously none of them asked for what happened to them, and the stress and pressures will affect people differently... It is terrible that after the great loss they suffered that the family obviously fractured in some instances as well..

I could not imagine to being put in the position Doris, The Col, Patti, Debra, Brie or any of them had to live through- and I wish that whatever remains of that family can someday find some way to have some kind of peace with each other- as they are all they have left...

and God knows- they deserve some peace

This book was really incredible, and I admire these people greatly...

I have debated so many times with so many people here that NONE of those involved should ever be released...

And this book so eloquently made the points I tried lamely to express..

you can see what these Killers really are about and have been about, and why it makes me sick that people want to claim they know them/defend them - meet them, and write to them, and in some really extreme WACKA-DOOO instances even marry them... sigh...


If this book cant make you understand in totality what these idiots really did, and how big of ABSOLUTE SCUMBAGS the " Family" really were....

You will always be on the other side of the fence from SAINTS like me :)

The only person in this whole case who hasn't gotten what he deserves is Roman...

His childhood is no excuse - they went too easy on him. I cant be so kind. Doris mentioned in one of her memoirs that she and watson were both from Texas and he should have known it was a Man's job to defend a woman at all costs...

Roman should have known this as well, and could have done a better job....

Panamint Patty said...

Saint said "he should have known it was a Man's job to defend a woman at all costs."

O really?

St. Circumstance said...

St. was quoting Doris...

But- agrees completely...

at the very least Roman could have not let his very pregnant wife sail across the ocean alone...

Not jerked the cops off and played around during his lie detector test- pretty serious matter at hand no?

He has said in several places he didn't trust Voytek or his friends- yet he let his very pregnant wife go back to to live around them without him???

Even if he had no obligation to be chivalrous- how about some common concern for your wife and unborn child???

He had no care about those things- he stayed behind to self-gratify while she went through the dirty work of having a child- because that was too boring and he had better things to do...

He should have done a better job of defending her in my opinion

:)

any real man I know would have done much better...

St. Circumstance said...

That guy has come here and treated our women like toys and possessions seve3ral times- and every time there is heat to pay for it he splits and all these " artistic" Hollywood jackasses come to his defense...

it makes zero sense to me...

They had him, and they let him go???

He should rot besides Charlie and should have been there a long time ago...

What he did to that girl at Nicholson's house was no different from what Charlie did to plenty of other young teenage girls..

whats the difference???

Scum is Scum....

That was the one and only mistake Sharon ever made in my opinion....

she shouldn't have had to pay as much a price as she did....

St. Circumstance said...

well maybe that is a bit strong
(I dont know her whole life)-

but it was in my opinion the most important mistake she ever made ....

I am a bit wound up lol

This story hit home with me

St. Circumstance said...

Calling out everybody- and you know who you are...

Those who visit LULU in the clink...

Those who spend endless nights defending Charlie....

Those who think ANY of them EVER deserve to breathe the same fresh air as you and I....

Those who went out and married any of these losers....

Those who claim to be part of or friendly with any left over remenance of this group of sub-human garbage...

.... and this includes any guitar playing fat old child molesters too...


You really ought to take a hard look at this book and give some thought to the pain, and suffering put upon very good people for absolutely no reason...

Think about it...

They didn't start a race war-

They didn't get any real money, or anything that helped them in the long or short term

They didn't exact any revenge on anyone who had specifically hurt any of them...

Didn't improve there lives or situation in any significant way..

They did not do one goddamn thing except cause serious torture and pain to people and a lifetime of suffering for those who loved them....

and for what?????

it was senseless!!!

If you support any of them or what they did than you should at least be honest with yourself about what you stand for...

Saying that this was o.k. for any reason is nonsense- making any excuses why anyone who was involved with them is no good...

making excuses for anyone who stayed or supported them after KNOWING what they did- should be criminal....

saying any of them should ever be allowed out is nonsense- I am not one for an eye for an eye- I am not a believer in killing others - not even as a matter of law- but if someone else says it should be so- I wouldn't argue. But I would lock them all up and keep them away from the rest of us for all eternity, and that was BEFORE I really understood just how badly I felt for the families...

and lastly - I hope that there is a very special place reserved in hell for Charles Watson, and Roman Polanski...

They will take separate roads to get there, but they will unite at some point in the future- I am sure of it...

Charles Watson will get the first chair for being among the most heinous and scary bastids that ever walked the face of the Earth...

There is so many excuses you could make for why so many of the people around Charlie could have wound up so dangerous... Tex can use NONE of them...

Roman Polanski will get the second chair for being among the most sneaky and scary bastids who ever walked the face of the Earth...

Like Watson- he probably didnt seem like the kind of person you had to worry about- or fear much to the outside world- but when you are willing to disregard any and everything to make sure your own selfish needs are put before anything else- no matter what the price..... and you disregard the feelings/saftey/and care of those who trust you when confronted with choices about there safety versus your own personal gratification-

your just as dangerous- and just as responsible in my book...

but there time shall come

It almost makes me want to stop being such a Saint and get myself thrown down there to watch....

Alas- too many angels wait for me- and I never put down the needs of those who love me for my own selfish pleasure...


lol Saint is back and refreshed and ready...


got the Tate family on my mind

Come get some !!!

ST. Circumstance said...

Going forward I have decided to change my pseudonym to ST. Circumstance..

both letters in ST will forever be capitalized when I speak about this subject in honor of Sharon Tate

its my own little personal tribute

:)

Ya do what you can lol

louis365 said...

St. Circumstance said...

Those who think ANY of them EVER deserve to breathe the same fresh air as you and I....

ST...there ain't no fresh air anymore...pollutants are everywhere ;)

ST. Circumstance said...

lol O.K. you got me there...

maria said...

Indeed. This book really shows how these crimes, committed over 40 years ago have continued to impact the generation of the Tate family that wasn't even around in 1969.

All of the Tate women who survived Sharon, and Alisa S. have done a wonderful job in demonstrating the trickle down effect that these murders had and how that August night forever changed the direction of lives then, now, and to come.

ST. Circumstance said...

Well said!!

Uncle Gilly said...

@louis365 lol you got to be kidding? full of yourself ? it must be a light meal! stop sucking up to ST circunstance it sounds like he enjoys it!! you must find it difficult to breathe with your head up your ass louis, what with air being in short supply and all!!

Uncle Gilly said...

As for the murders having effect on those later generations, after the passing of their mother, they have no personal experience of this tragedy! even Patricia Tate had trouble with actual memories of Sharon Tate ! Polanski said " Sharon seems like a long time ago" never mind what he has done in the interim he would know ! it sounds like some of you are looking for another excuse for slop sentimentality! I find this also gets in the way of some facts in the case ,as in some people refuse to believe Sharon was less than a saint or human in other words! and don't get me started on the fixation people have with Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring as if they were the only victims worth talking about!

Uncle Gilly said...

AAAh nothing like a good vent ! hey, waddya know you do serve some useful purpose louie! is the 365 for the amount of days in a year you have to take your foot out of your mouth?

Uncle Gilly said...

Oh sorry ST. i called you circunstance no dis intended, that's what happens when you type in an angry flurry with one finger !

ST. Circumstance said...

no problem....

I do like it when people agree to me and sucking up is bonus :)

Doesn't matter if Sharon and J were bad people any more than it matter if Gary Hinman sold drugs...

no excuse for one person to do those things to another...

and we cant judge the pain people feel when they see those they grow up with and admire suffer so greatly...

who knows how that would affect you or I????

Here is hoping neither one of us ever has to find out....


how badly I feel for these poeple had never and will never affect the way I look at the facts- one has nothing to do with the other...

in my opinion...

how badly it sucks for those who were affected- has no bearing to me on how or why it had to happen to them....

but it still sucks for them all the same...

Uncle Gilly said...

No, I agree it matters not what these humans did we all do things as the circumstances allow. From all the sifting of facts, Sharon Tate in addition to being one of the most stunning women of any decade, was a very nice girl it seems. So if she made love to several people on camera it matters not one iota to me. But I do see people who build up a fairy tale worthy of Hoffmann around these people and I find the truth interesting, for the most part !

ST. Circumstance said...

Yep we DO agree..

her sex life- albeit interesting-

matters not

ST. Circumstance said...

If anyone ever ends up proving Sharon's sex life had anything to do with what happened to her...

Ill be open to that line of discussion- and be willing to admit I was way off base all these years

until then-it is really not only inappropriate - but the type of thing only sub human moronic pond scum would really go into in a public forum...

people who have nothing to offer intellectually- so they rely on shock value to make there case in lack of any possible ability to voice any semblance of a rational valuable opinion....

People who dont really care about the reality of what happened back on Cielo- but are more interested in freak mongering and worshiping the dark side of life because they suffer so deeply inside from anxiety over there own personal inadequacies..

Ya know the type of douche bag I am talking about....

:) Don't ya?

you needn't look too far in here to find them

ST. Circumstance said...

I mean after all...

what in the world could be a more gutless and cowardly act than to attack a women???

let alone one who cant even defend herself???

Tex Watson is the person who comes to mind....

wanna be like him

Uncle Gilly said...

So how does one voice a" rational" "Valuable"( a subjective statement) opinion when until we know facts. verifiable scientific ( if you like) it is all conjecture and speculation. unless you for instance have facts we don't ! proof no Sharon Tates sex life did not bring about her murder, however this speculation puts us in touch with many shady characters that her life style actually puts her in touch with! also thoughts of this nature make this case more interesting, and is a good way to get at the truth !

Uncle Gilly said...

Also we all know what happened at CIELO Drive, we have all read the reports and seen the photos, it is WHY did this happen on CIELO DRIVE! and once again this forum is called TATE LaBianca, yet these people seem to be of secondary consideration. you ST said you wanted the S.T. in your handle to be for Sharon Tate .Why just her? apart from the obvious letter choice, why not L'L' or R'L' or A' F' or S'P' etc, my guess you are just as drawn to the sensationalism as you are any search for truth, and that's fine , but you cannot cluck your tongue and wag your finger at those who seem attracted to the less hmmm savory?? aspects of this case .Not the best word choice but you get my drift.

ST. Circumstance said...

When you put it exactly like that...

EXACTLY LIKE THAT

you are right- I do not know for sure it did not...

and if you approach the question with respect- It is fair to ask

but in light of the fact that the women was murdered in such a brutal way- in such a vulnerable situation...

I think it is tasteless to take lighthearted shots at her integrity when there has not been one remote piece of evidence to suggest she was at fault in her own slaughter in any way....

No????

ST. Circumstance said...

Nope I just wanted to make a point that me myself..

should start to spend some time getting to know those victimized as those who caused the whole mess...

I called myself out on that

your turn

Uncle Gilly said...

You see ST. i enjoy discussion of these things and not just sniping ( as I have done) at some of the hmmm "less savory " characters that post on these pages. Amen !!!

ST. Circumstance said...

and yes...

people who are attracted to this case for those reasons have to own that...

it is what it is... lol

and you are what you are...

may god help you- cause I dont want to

ST. Circumstance said...

well good luck

these are conversations I can live without

Uncle Gilly said...

Oh , I admit freely I am attracted to a lot of different aspects to the case, and as a kid was drawn to it for Sharon Tate and the why, why her feeling. But as we mature, hopefully we need more to get satisfaction and these once again unsavory aspects ,are valid. I first became aware of them through articles in the DISINFORMATION books and Gary Lachmans excellent " turn off your mind" and Adam Gorightly and the " Shadow over Santa Susana" still find them fascinating !we all know while good in many ways " Helter Skelter leaves lots to be desired in a study of the Manson murders !

Uncle Gilly said...

Sorry I wasn't aware this was such an homogenized blog, should we say a prayer to dear Jesus before discussions do you think?

ST. Circumstance said...

Well my strongest advice is to stop worrying about who Sharon slept with before her life was rudely taken from her as a starting place...

odds are she didn't plan it on herself while having sex...

maybe that's just me

Helter Skelter gives you all the facts of the case as put forth by the guy who tried it... its one of many books that still wont give someone who is a voyeur what they need

what you want is not going to be found in any book..

maybe the back room of an old porn shop in some small seedy town

sensationalism is what you seek...

lol

ST. Circumstance said...

But Hey brother...

I love you anyway....

Smooooch

Kumbayahhhhh

ST. Circumstance said...

Yes - of course any time lol

look to me for an inspiration for forgiveness...

I am a real Saint :)

Uncle Gilly said...

AAh yes and your conscience is as clear as a saints memory, let us bow our heads........ btw i mentioned books that do contain that information if your mom wont let you read that stuff ST, lock the bathroom door then hide it with your masturbatory material like your copy of " Lesbians in hard hats" ! Bahlasti Ompheda ! Ave Satanas!

ST. Circumstance said...

what do alpha omega and Santana have to do with anything?

ST. Circumstance said...

but you keep your bowed head away from me..

lesbians are o.k....

creeps who speak in tounges I can live without

Uncle Gilly said...

Lesbians are o k ? .... are you one? Gloria Patri amo te super omnia ST circumstance Benedicto Domine Satanas in Luciferi ecselsi Per Diabolus nostrum ave ave ave !

ST. Circumstance said...

no I am not a lesbian...

but if they find a way for a guy to become one...

I might consider it

ST. Circumstance said...

Hey we have a language in New Jersey where I come from as well...

some of my wisest and most successful friends growing up in Princeton were lesbians....

We call it

Suck my hinaleinous duchebag

its German for kiss my ass - I think..

not really sure - but it serves the purpose...

maria said...

Yes, this is the "Tate-Labianca" blog, but this thread was dedicated to discussing the book Restless Souls and Debra's response to it, hence the direction it took discussing Sharon.

I agree with ST and I stand by my original point. A family member's horrific death of any kind,let alone the nature of these murders and the continued interest in the case would definitely impact generations to come regardless of that family member was known to his/her relatives or not.

We don't know how Patti's children were raised. We know nothing about her family life really...nor do we know much about the lives of Debra and Patti post August 1969. We were able to glean from Restless Souls and from her own account that Doris pretty much checked out of her family's life after the murders. She herself claimed to have been in a near catatonic state for at least three years after the murders and then she devoted herself almost entirely to the cause of POMC and keeping those animals behind bars.

Make no mistake, I don't judge Doris for the direction her life took, but a mom is the glue which holds a family together and with Doris being absentee, I'm certain those girls and PJ felt the loneliness.

We also need to look at what Doris' work did..she put into motion the legislation which now governs parole hearing with victim impact statements. She gave victims and their families a voice.

So, U.G., I respectfully disagree with you.

maria said...

Vicious crimes of any nature are capable of altering the lives of generations to come...both of the victims and of the felons.

ST. Circumstance said...

Maria- thanks for the breath of fresh air...

It is not a personal issue- it is a matter of wrong and right

god forbid any of us should have to hear that news about someone they care about or love...

I called out people who have debated me in the past- because I wanted to hear how they would feel after something so personal form the family came out...

Although I disagree- I respect some of those people...

I never meant it to be an invitation for any Johnny Come lately Jackass to insult the memory of a Lady who deserved much better than she got...

Thank you for REASON

Uncle Gilly said...

@ Maria I respectfully agree with your right Maria, seriously, I do feel or felt deeply for Mrs Tate when ever I see pictures of a very young Sharon, I always think Sex godess or no that was Mrs Tates baby her first born daughter ! And she must have been greatly anticipating the arrival of the baby her daughter carried . It doesn't have to happen to a celebrity to be heart breaking, but I still believe it is easy to feel sympathy for these strangers when someone can easily turn it off Steven Parent ( whose mother was devasted) and apply the sorrow to the 2 best looking victims as St circumvent does, thats all I meant.

Uncle Gilly said...

@ st circumnavigate the point ,where I come from ( and I have been to New Jersey they still talk about what you did with that frozen banana!) we have many Irish immigrants and we have a saying i will share with you , POGUE MAHONE it means simply kiss my ass and I'm sure given the chance you would !

ST. Circumstance said...

See the way you speak with Maria is very nice...

I knew you had it in you

:)

ST. Circumstance said...

And by The way

if you weren't a johnny come lately

you would know that I have made MUCH noise in the past in argument of Keeping bobby in the clink...

I did that because Gary was very good looking as well...

I just read the Tate book Jackass...

I mentioned several times that was why i have s bug up my ass about this...

but to know that would require the ability to read and pay attention

You have done neither...

But- I understand your ignorance- and again- am in a good mood...

So I will stop pissing all over you and give you a break...

I can be good like that

Uncle Gilly said...

@st happenstance " I knew you had it in you" funny, thats what they said in Jersey about you and the frozen banana!

ST. Circumstance said...

Yep...

you got it big shot lol

The frozen banana

good that when confronted with someone who can speak at all- that is what you came back with...

I will let everyone who reads this make there own decision about what your worth, and what level of seriousness to give you...

I have made my own- I gave you a chance...

You have nothing to offer

Uncle Gilly said...

Bobby beausoleil was a roomie /lover of Magician, Aleister Crowley disciple and film maker Kenneth Anger. Anger was part of a " Magick" ( Crowleys spelling) circle with among others Anton Szandor Lavey founder of the church of Satan. Lavey played organ for strippers in something called the topless witches revue one of his dancers was susan atkins you know her she stabbed sharon Tate, told her she was going to die, licked Tates blood off her hand ? See how these things are connected ?apodeictically ,synchronistically connected ? must be hard for you to realize you don't know it all? lol what a twat you are !

Uncle Gilly said...

The emperor and a rather flaccid one he is has no clothes no one dared tell you until I came along to show you are full of hot air among other things!

ST. Circumstance said...

Fuck the emperor...

I am the Saint...

if people looked as good as me- they would walk around nude all the time

Oh Susan and bobby and Charlie all were in San Fran in the 60's so therefore

Sharon had sex on film and deserved to die....

Yeah I did miss that connection

and I never knew any of that before..

Alister Crowley huh? Wow
Thanks much for clearing everything up

:)

ACFisherAldag said...

No, Sharon was not at fault for her own death. YES, Frykowski, Polanski and possibly Sebrig were at fault. Yes, they were, for attracting criminals to themselves, for dealing drugs and being involved in porn. Lay down with dogs, get up with fleas.

I find it very ironic that some folks here, who've admitted involvement with and use of illegal drugs and pornography, have the gall to criticize those of us who support people who are on the periphery of this crime.

How many people do you think YOUR dope dealer has killed? How many lives do you think YOUR pornographer has ruined?

Yeah, sure, consenting adults and it's all home-grown. Right. Keep rationalizing.

If you have used, or are currently using, illegal drugs, then you're at the periphery of violent crime, too. And just as responsible for it.

maria said...

Shame shame and tsk tsk U.G....why does this thread now have to sink to the lowest possible denominator?

Really?

And ST...I had a frozen banana dipped in chocolate at Disney World in 2008 and it was absolutely delish...xo

ST. Circumstance said...

Respect you much AC :)

That's the truth...

But- Using drugs is not really an open invitation for people to come in your house and rip your guts out all over house, and paint word with your blood...

there are just no excuses you can make for any of them to do what they did..

You may have noticed- I wont even get into Charlies culpability in this argument....

but Watson and the girls had no right to violate any of those peoples privacy and no right to make the decision if they should live or die, and how they should die....

The only human argument that can be made is that what happened is wrong...

if you cant see that - then you have to own what type of values you have and what your all about...

if you can close the eyes at night and sleep well.. that's all that matters...

I smoke a bowl before bed almost every night- and then I doze off with absolute clarity and ease...

If you do the same AC- we are on the same page- we just disagree on this...

ST. Circumstance said...

as far as sleeping with ease..

I know there is no bowl in your nightly routine...

I respect that as well...

but I would argue- hanging out with guys like Charle is probably just as much a health hazard as anything else....

ST. Circumstance said...

and lastly AC my friend...

You said yourself lay down with dos get up with fleas....

does this not assume they are ABLE to get up...

you want to arrest them for drugs,go for it...

but stabbing someone 40 something times for doing a line of blow is a tad much no????

Think about it....

the people who did this didnt lose there lives for murder...

So Jay and Voytek get death for doing drugs???

that make sense to you?

Marliese said...

Periphery? Really?
And was Charles on the periphery of the slaughter of Leno and Rosemary LaBianca? How about Shorty? Periphery again?

Marliese said...

St. Circumstance,
Welcome back! It is so good to see your posts again...

ST. Circumstance said...

Thanks Marliese :)

It is always such a pleasure to see you..

the room always brightens the moment you walk in....

Marliese said...

Periphery! This makes me nuts!

Marliese said...

Oh thanks St. Circumstance. I'm just so glad to see your posts again...

leary7 said...

funny, the Saint and I had some seriously nasty battles when I first came on to the TLB blogs (he was convinced I was Jim in disguise) but now I am a true fan. Great to have his insights and pontifications around again. I guess it just takes awhile for a Boston snob (not really) to warm up to the Joisey bravado.
What was this thread about again? Oh yeah, Restless Souls.
Aren't we all.

ST. Circumstance said...

Thanks...

I made a 100% fool out of myself about that...

a couple of people tried to warn me...

but sometimes I think I know more than everybody else and need to me reminded

that I Do not :)

This book really made me think about this case in ways I haven't in a long time...

to say I loved it would be an understatement...

Leary- you fought the good fight and are a very intelligent and well spoken dude...

I appreciate what you say- thanks much!! and Yes- we certainly are

Marliese said...

St. Circumstance, i feel the same...saying I loved it would be an understatement.

And I haven't even read it cover to cover yet. I find the emotional wounds so raw, i can manage only a few pages a day...and i'm usually one to speed through a book in a few hours and then lose interest. Not so with this...my heart aches for them all. :)

I just want to throw up when I hear and read some of what's been said and written about these killers, as well as the idea that any of us opposed to parole, including compassionate release for one legged Susan Atkins are vengeful, unforgiving fools with no concept of atonement...

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

The person who sold the bowl you smoked before bed may've mowed down a bunch of kids outside a tenement with a machine gun over drug turf, or killed some border patrolmen when smuggling the dope into the country, or sold other substances that resulted in driving while impaired and a wreck, or an overdose, or a robbery for the dope fiend to have money to afford the drugs.

No, that doesn't make it right, but if you're involved with people who are dealing, you gotta expect that violence very well could be the result.

Charles Manson was on the periphery of Tex Watson's drug dealing. Makes him as culpable as your drug dealer's friends and family members. Sure, he knew it was happening. I bet your dope dealer's wife realizes where her fur coat and nice car comes from, too.

Frykowski put Sharon, Abigail and that poor young man in the car at risk with his drug dealing activities.

Leno put Rosemary at risk with his illegal gambling activities.

Hinman put himself at risk with his illegal drug sales.

Polanski put Sharon at risk with his illegal pornography.

The nice lady who wrote the book seems to think that there weren't really any drugs involved. Perhaps she is naive.

ST. Circumstance said...

AC-

You are being dramatic.

Nobody has any right to do violence to another for any reason...

" Expecting violence"

is accepting it... I Do Not!

None of those people had done anything to anyone which gave anyone the right to take there life...

period....


Nobody in my family would ever wear anything ever as tacky as a fur coat :)

besides we live in Florida- its warm here :)

Sunny-bright.... :)

Thats how I feel about the nice lady who wrote the book as well..

very positive and warm

ST. Circumstance said...

look AC- you have the right to support your friends and your opinions are as valid as my own...

We disagree on this for sure...

but I respect you anyway :)

your a great advocate for your causes- and a steady rock for your friends

I admire that

Streetwalkin said...

AC you wonderful Lady would it be safe to say to your knowledge the Cielo drive murders was just the result of a drug burn on Linda or some kind of turf war with Tex.
My Thoughts all lead to Tex and drug deals not sure on the whole Polanski porn!!
I need to be enlightened.
p.s Restless Souls is amazing read

Marliese said...

You forgot Donald Shea, AC.
And 'that poor young man in the car' had a name. As does the 'nice lady who wrote the book.'

St. Circumstance, you have the patience of a saint, and set a good example for responding to a dismissive attitude toward the victims.

ST. Circumstance said...

It is important that we have dialogue...

and that we all fight hard, but fair...

and most importantly...

lets let each other live to fight another day....


I am going to leave this post now and wait for the Col to bring us something new to debate and toss around...

But I will re-post something I put on L/S this morning - and will see you all soon...

Thanks to Uncle Gilly and AC and everyone who answered my call-

and Great Thanks as well to those who came to get on my side...

This was an awesome book, and if it touched even a few people as it did me...

it did the world some good..



( as posted on L/S)

a moment for the victims...

I personally have spent many years reading/listening/and watching the murderers trying to figure this whole thing out...

as well... many years fighting and arguing with others over -sometimes the most trivial of things really...

But today I take a moment out to think just about Sharon and Jay, and Gibby, and Voytek, and Steven, Leo and Rosie, Shorty, Gary....

all people like us-
some beautiful outside, others beautiful inside.. All flawed, and imperfect- yet just right to those who loved them.

people who all had some kind of life going, and they had the right to see it through for better or worse in my opinion...

some would say certain ones lived lives which made them easy targets...

Well if living behind a armed gate in Beverly Hills made them vulnerable- I guess maybe most of the rest of us shouldn't be sleeping so easy....

I grieve today for Sharon and her lost baby and the grandchild her parents never got to have, and the nephew her sisters never got to hold...

I fell badly for the families of all of these fellow human beings who were taken so brutally and suddenly...

That is all I got for today

Uncle Gilly said...

@ st cirque du soleil :You respect AC anyway?? you arrogant, pompous, self important product of diseased semen ! nice you let her comment and pass your censor you fucking weak willed wind bag! you don't support violence of any sort? sure Ghandi, spoken like some who has his battles fought for him at others expense I believe coward is the correct term !

Uncle Gilly said...

@ Maria yes but Maria my dear , you actually ate your frozen banana, st circumcision didn't! ask him if that is chocolate syrup smeared on his shorts? oops didn't mean to offend you...... Maria !

Uncle Gilly said...

@ st circumcursation Oh yeah now I see, you desperate lowbrow, you have no life. it is as obvious as the neurosis that makes you want everyone to think you have a clue! hmm I always thought you gay guys had intense social lives ?

bobby said...

Hi Gill, Your getting pretting good at telling us how F'd up everyone who posts is. how about you give some opinion of your own for us to consider. It cant be that your come back. There must be some personal opinions you would like to share with everyone. Whats it all about Gill. Whats right ? whats wrong ?

Marliese said...

AC, Donald Shea's risk factors?
You speak dismissively about the other victims...how they placed themselves or their friends and loved ones at risk for murder, so what about the cold blooded ambush, murder, and desecration of Donald Shea?

bobby said...

kind of like saying a car accident is 50% your fault because you got out of bed that morning.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

I maintain that Steve Grogan, Tex Watson and Bruce Davis were at fault for killing Donald Shea.

As for the car accident analogy... I'd compare this to someone who gets in the vehicle with a drunk driver.

Marliese said...

Of course you do, AC.

And you still haven't answered my question.

Uncle Gilly said...

@Bobby I have already done that, on this and several posts and I am not attempting to tell anyone other than those that seem to warrant it what is fucked up with them .I just made some points around some things I had read I found interesting and some others accused me of everything under the sun! from disrespecting Sharon Tates memory to slander and who knows perhaps I will be blamed for blowing up the hindenberg next !

Uncle Gilly said...

@ Bobby I will show I have no ill will and move to another post and discuss whatever that post warrants !

starship said...

I don't want to put words in AC s mouth and then argue with her, but I believe she would say after the drug thing with Sebring and Voytek, something about how Roman liked to have sex with underage girls ( I know, shocker ) and abuse them perhaps and that Manson was involved with procuring them for him and that also led to the murders at Cielo. Again, please remember all this talk about anything to do with orgies or whatever at Cielo really wouldn't have included the Polanskis, or if it did it must have been quick because both R,Oman and Sharon were gone to Europe in march and Sharon when she came back was 8 and a half months pregnant, unless Alisa Statman proves otherwise, and that Roman didn't return until after the murders. Something easily verifiable as true. No debate there.

Latisha Blacky said...

Hey check out Thelma & Louise

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Marliese, like Mr. Parent, I believe that Mr. Shea was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and I believe that Mr. Manson is not responsible for killing either one.

That would be Tex Watson for Mr. Parent, and Tex, Bruce and Steve for Mr. Shea.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

And Latisha, pantyhose are bad for the environment!

bobby said...

AC, I think a number of people place CM at Hinman, Shea & Labianca murders.

or is there another case I'm thinking of ?

maria said...

Way too many digressions on this thread as of late and on some of the latest threads as well...

And the needless insults and stupidity...feel like I'm dealing with a bunch of 7th graders.

Jesse2112 said...

A/C, so the Manson family were also as well known into drugs, selling and ingesting, So I am confused to your previous point??
Also, what was up with the "drug dealing wife" reference? I love the way you stick by your convictions, and will defend your point of views, this was the first time I seen you be malicious, or did I just read it wrong.