Sunday, September 25, 2011

Suzan and Joe


I saw a posting on evilliz talking about how close Suzan Struthers LaBerge and BF Joe Dorgan lived to the Waverly Place address.

I have been to both. In fact could walk to both from where I am typing at this moment.

I never believed that Suzan had her parents killed. "Forgiving" Tex is a sure sign of deep mental instablity, yes. But she didn't order the hit, so to speak.

But let's speculate, shall we, on what might be possible.

These clowns, according to one story, tortured and killed Gary Hinman because someone said he had inherited a pile of dough.

IF Dorgan was a Straight Satan...IF he knew Tex...If IF IF...

Did Dorgan hang at the ranch and make mention that "I'm fucking this young chick, she lives next door to your boy Harold True, and her father is a piggy asshole but BOY is he loaded."?

Remember, Tex was the kill crazy one. EVERY version of the story has Charlie tying Leno and Rosemary up and then saying " DON'T DO WHAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY."

What if Tate was about a drug burn and getting money back?
What if LaBianca was about money?
Hinman easily could be about money.
Crowe was about money.

Motive wise, money makes relatable sense.

I can't establish any of this, but it starts to add up, doesn't it?

101 comments:

La-de-la said...

lol

louis365 said...

You pickin fun at pedo Polanski?

St. Circumstance said...

I like this idea as well Col...

very minimalist lol

under-spoken as well- not your usual tact

:)

St. Circumstance said...

sorry commented before this post was complete...

not sure of the idea- maybe??

Jean Harlow said...

Colonel,I am confused. Are you saying that Charlie was telling not to kill anyone at the Labianca house - and that it was a mistake to kill the people at Cielo?

Jean Harlow said...

sorry meant to say - Charlie did not want Tex to kill anyone at the Polanski home?

ColScott said...

Again we only have the stories that have been handed down to us.

Charlie says "Go with Tex and do what he says and leave something witchy" re Tate.

He says " Don't make it like last night" at LaBianca.

beauders said...

has it ever been researched enough to figure out if dorgan was even a straight satan? my research says he was a biker, but it was never established what group he belonged to. suzan didn't have anything to do with labianca murder she is just a crazy born again christian who feels she has to forgive her born again brother. atkins was not born again she was a catholic, the rest are affiliated as far as i know with no religion.

Streetwalkin said...

Was it Charlie who advised he ran with Dorgan.
So did we all just presumed he was a Straight Satan?
Is there anywhere else with some history about the Straight Satan’s? Did they merge into another group?

starship said...

Tate could be about money too...one story that Tex was to go to Tate and then the next house and the next house until they had a certain amount of $$$...

Charlie wondered what they were doing home so early when they returned to Spahn...

adam said...

Blogger ColScott said...

Again we only have the stories that have been handed down to us.

Charlie says "Go with Tex and do what he says and leave something witchy" re Tate.

He says " Don't make it like last night" at LaBianca.

Isn't that open to interptation as to it's meaning? Don't most accounts imply that Charlie meant not to panic the LaBiancia's. And why did he entrust a loony like Tex to commit the robbery? After the night before, I wouldn't trust Tex to make me a half decent cup of coffee.

rfoster1 said...

Money is a universal motivator.

St. Circumstance said...

Money also make sense even to those who feel

no sense makes sense

Luigi said...

"Money also make sense even to those who feel

no sense makes sense"

Good point.


I’ve been folowing this blog for a while now, and I’m glad I can post a comment myself, and I think this is a good opportunity to begin.

I think the money motive makes sense, mixed with drugs, of course. Tate: drugs, possibly money, a vendetta, or a warning to Melcher, perhaps. La Bianca: it reeks of money. Leno had a supermarket chain…



On another note, has anybody ever seriously ask Charles why the fuck did they do what they did?

Having read so much about this case, it makes me wonder whether the most simple of questions, to the most likely of candidates capable of answering it, has ever been uttered.

Thanks for the space.

St. Circumstance said...

Hello Luigi!!

Good question- I am going out there myself next Spring, and would love to be able to stop by and ask Charlie some point blank questions...

I would spend the dough to get into see him if it were possible

but I dont think it is...

I am also starting to wonder why Marlin or AC or anyone else who is in touch with him never asks or gives an answer if they have asked these type of questions???

does/did this man not ever have one serious moment or conversation in the last 40 years with anyone??

This more than any other thing makes me question any motive I come up with or read anywhere...

Maybe the guy talks so much shit because he REALLY HAS NO GOOD ANSWER???

But if you ask him why he committed any of the other crimes he did over the years you get the same answer...

pimp- money
credit card fraud/theft- money
steal- money

you get " good reasons" why he needed the money- but always money at the heart...

So maybe if nothing else fits...

money does

adam said...

I do wonder if AC has ever just asked Charlie "What the fuck really happened and why?" on one of her visits to him. If I was sitting at a table with the man himself I wouldn't be able to avoid asking.

St. Circumstance said...

There are several people on these sites who claim to know Charlie or those associated with other real players involved with the family...

Some cases- that may actually be so

but never once has anyone ever given anything but cryptic answers to these questions, and little inside comments that I guess only a few people are supposed to understand- or something lol

but nothing that ever made me feel like any of them actually know for sure what the straight answers are..

which leads me back to square one

either they dont know/didn't get the real answers, or there are no real answers to know...

a couple of very bizarre and dangerous people went on a rampage over two nights at places they were familiar with for one reason or the other...

Charlie had nothing to do with it

This is what this group of people would have me believe?

Well if Charlie after 40 years has never given anyone one other single reason- and nobody else after 40 years can come up with one better reason and pin it to Charlie...

Do I not take them a little more seriously??

adam said...

Word is he doesn't snitch. Would quite happily die then squeal on others. Misguided honour. If innocent, I would not throw my life away on a cunt such as Tex.

ACFisherAldag said...

Actually, I have answered those questions seriously, from what Charles seems to know about the unfortunate incidents.... which really is not much.

Either been ignored, or sneered at, or blown off.

St. Circumstance said...

Hello AC :)

I certainly never heard you respond to any of this specifically on behalf of Charlie

but-

You sort of are making my point to a degree...

even here you basically are stating he wasn't very involved, nor does he know much about why those things happened those two nights..

and for a long time I thought that idea was absurd...

my point here today is that he wont say anything specific anyone can make sense of, and nobody can come forward and definitively point to him saying anything that makes sense...

One reason for this COULD be that he really didn't know

So many people ( including me) think he did know and had something to do with it and the planning of it- but it AMAZES me that he has never said one serious thing about the subject after all this time to anyone at all- or that no one has ever gotten a straight answer about it

it makes me wonder if I just dont want to hear the truth...

cant accept the fact that just maybe-

He cant answer- because he Really doesn't know???

I think at the end of the day- he does know...

but very strange nobody can ever get to the bottom of it for sure after all this time...

He is in the twilight of his life. this would be the time for him to be reflective...

Someone needs to have the conversation with him that he has never allowed to happen

He needs to be told from the first words- that nobody gives a fuck how hard he had it as a kid, and save the ATWA stuff for the people who want to help with that cause..

Be a man and talk straight about what happened those nights, and if he is who he says he ism and has any pride- there are buttons which could be pushed, and questions that could be asked which would tell us if he has any idea, or if he is just a rambling old man who is broken down, and living as much off an old legend as the prosecutor who helped him create it...

I think too many people fall under the spell of who they are talking to, and are so captivated by actually listening to him in person after all they have heard/read...

someone needs to try and relate to him on the level of - you dont impress me and I am not interested in all of your extra-curricular nonsense...

But he would have no reason to talk to anyone who treats him like that- because that would only come from a guy with a big mouth who is desperate for someone to take him serious and talk to him...

Charlie still has too many people to kiss his ass and tell him how great his every idea is...

he doesn't need people who would treat him straight and force him to be honest to get the attention he CRAVES..

So he wont- and we will be forced to take the words of his admirers and friends for his own...

and that just will never be enough for me personally...

But AC I respect you for answering me at all..

Shimmy said...

The Satins morphed into Angels. We are burying one of the last this weekend. He had alot of things to say about the ranch, Charlie and Danny, but it was like pulling teeth. Took me years to get it all.

Shimmy said...

The Satins morphed into Angels. We are burying one of the last this weekend. He had alot of things to say about the ranch, Charlie and Danny, but it was like pulling teeth. Took me years to get it all.

Vera Dreiser said...

How would it be snitching by Charlie explaining, for instance, why he went to LaBiancas'? He knew True didn't live next door anymore and when Linda asked if he was going to True's he said "no" and walked up to LaBiancas'. AC, why not ask Charlie why he chose that house? Seems he could answer without being a snitch, no?

starship said...

Do you mean Satans as in the Straight Satans?

Angels as in Hell's Angels?

Which chapter?

Luigi said...

Hello, St. Circumstance, everyone...

Could it be some mafia related stuff? After all, didn't he meet some heavyweights in prison?

Still, drugs and money seem very fair motives (and we can throw in lots of things here too: rituals, orgies, and the like... it was part of the times, wasn't it?).


Anyways, what if the intention was not to kill them? That murder was, say, an unavoidable consequence.

How come Garretson was left alive?


There's a story I never quite believed: the fact that Charlie went to Tate to check on the scene after they were butchered... that surely makes no sense.


Has anyone ever checked for a possible link between the LaBiancas and Polanski? Everyone seems centered on the victims, but perhaps the troll himself had some shit going on we do not know about.

And those tapes Stovitz talked about?

We could speculate forever, I suppose.

Vera Dreiser said...

Leno got his hair cut at Jay's. That's never been reported before, but Vera is sharing it now.

louis365 said...

Helter Skelter baby

melee1969 said...

Vera: "Leno got his hair cut at Jay's. That's never been reported before, but Vera is sharing it now.

____________________

If that's even true, so what?

Vera Dreiser said...

The Bug makes quite a to-do about there being no connection between the two nights' victims.
It opens up a world of possibilities re: motive. Perhaps Jay and Leno (and Rostau?) were engaged in extra-curricular biz activities. It's more interesting that the Bug concealed it because, believe me, he knew.

Shimmy said...

I never asked which chapter, so many things i wish i would have. He grew up next door to Danny. Nothing good to say there. He had said Charlie wasn't a bad guy, that those on the ranch were so out of it half the time and believed the girls were not brainwashed. Had a huge scar on his head, i guess when everything came down they rounded up EVERYONE cops got a few of the club members down in venice and his skull was cracked. Never left the area, has lived here in Simi for years. He really was one of a kind lol, everything was a conspiracy.

melee1969 said...

Vera, there is no evidence that Leno was taking drugs.

Nothing. Nada. Look again. No connection.

melee1969 said...

Say again how Leno was involed with Jay. Leno didn't take drugs.

I get soooo tired of you people who try to say there was a connection to Cielo Drive

You're all worthless.

Try it again.....

Vera Dreiser said...

When the Hell did I say Leno took drugs?! I said he may have been involved in (shady) business ventures with Jay. They were both in very bad financial shape and engaged in questionable business endeavors (Jay dealing drugs, Leno spiraling in debt after being caught embezzeling from the family biz and being forced to pay it back). Maybe they, uh, "ventured" together in something a little over their heads.

THELMA AND LOUISE said...

Shimmy said...

I never asked which chapter, so many things i wish i would have. He grew up next door to Danny. Nothing good to say there. He had said Charlie wasn't a bad guy, that those on the ranch were so out of it half the time and believed the girls were not brainwashed. Had a huge scar on his head, i guess when everything came down they rounded up EVERYONE cops got a few of the club members down in venice and his skull was cracked. Never left the area, has lived here in Simi for years. He really was one of a kind lol, everything was a conspiracy.

agreed!
Both nights at Sharons and leno's were about drugs.
Thelma

THELMA AND LOUISE said...

leno didnt take drugs but Rosemary had some hid that night in a very personal place.

T

melee1969 said...

First of all, Leno's hair sucked. There's no way that Jay styled it. Secondly, even if Leno had ventured into Jay's salon and someone else cut his hair, to even consider that they "struck up a conversation" to relieve themselves of enormous debt is ludicrous.

I don't know why people have this "mind fart" that these people all knew each other somehow and they've solved the case.

You might as well just say "Oh Jay went grocery shopping at Gateway one day, and that's how it all went down". Stupid.

starship said...

I'm fairly certain that Leno's embezzlement wasn't discovered until after the murders.

Also, the physical evidence at Tate strongly suggests that others unknown tampered with the crime scene after the hit squad left. Charlie has admitted at least twice to going back there so it is not at all far fetched. And if not him, then who?

starship said...

And Leno, an Italian - American who, by all accounts, a man's man...well, if he didn't go to a regular barber to get his hair cut then I'll eat my hat...

starship said...

or at least cut my ponytail off...

St. Circumstance said...

Weird timing - reading through the Huffington post catalog and came across a story about a guy who tried to have a straight Q/A with Manson about Baseball of all things... tried to visit- sent a letter when he found out Charlie had no lawyer...

fits the topic of trying to get anything straight out of him....

and of course- one of his outside minions was the one to reply to this guy- not Charlie himself..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-macaray/charles-manson-and-me_b_994638.html

Panamint Patty said...

Shimmy, tell us more!

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Actually, St. Circumstance, most people who visit with Charles don't care about a few celebrities using drugs and blowing off paying their debts forty years ago, getting punished. Yet we DO care about ATWA, music and other subjects. We do not care about some idiots using illegal substances, not ponying up the cash they owe, and getting blown away in Detroit or Chicago or Compton or Miami, either. We are more concerned about undrinkable water, unbreathable air, and whole species of animals going extinct.

Very few people "kiss ass" with Charles. We tell him when we disagree with him... and then sometimes have to eat crow when he is proven right.

As I've said before, Charles's involvement with the killings was knowing some people from prison who had been or were at the time, involved with organized crime. He put them together with various people to do some enforcements, including Tex, who badly wanted to be part of a motorcycle club. As you've prolly read in the mainstream media, initiations into some clubs involve doing a crime with others present. They did what enforcers do. They did what 1% bike clubs do. Which happens every day in every major city in America.

So yes, Charles had some foreknowledge, and some after the fact. Yet not all enforcements end in death. Mostly because not all enforcements are carried out by idiots ramped up on speed who are trying to impress women they'd foolishly dragged along. Charles could not possibly have predicted that the enforcements would end in death, including that of bystanders. He should've gotten 18 years for knowledge before and after the fact.

The only way to stop the drug trade and subsequent loss of life is to completely cease the flow of illegal drugs and guns into this country from Mexico. A nice big tall thick wall would do the trick.

The accounts of Susan Atkins showing up saying, "Look what I did for you!" and Charles groaning "Oh, no, now we're all in trouble" (paraphrased) are in all likelihood true.

Mr. Bugliosi offered Charles a deal of 18 months with time served if he would rat out the people behind the enforcement. He refused.

Polanski, Frykowski and LaBianca were involved in all kinds of illegal activities, including drugs, child porn, illegal gambling. Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.

The music, the occult / magick, the protests, the communal lifestyle, the petty crime, the environmental protests, and everything else were peripheral to the involvement of organized crime.

There you have it. Pretty boring, actually.

Vera Dreiser said...

(Deep breath). Okay, AC, you never answered my question about "Charles" selecting the LaBianca house, except to say they were involved in "all kinds of illegal activities, including drugs, child porn, illegal gambling."
Why don't you give us an example of just one illegal activity the LaBs were involved in (besides Leno's embezzlement of his own company; and his gambling seems to have been carried out only in legal venues, by the way).
Or, just how and why Charles took them to the LaBs and left them there, after tying the couple up.
I'm thinking you don't have a clue why and would never ask.
Finally, re your comment, "Very few people "kiss ass" with Charles. We tell him when we disagree with him... and then sometimes have to eat crow when he is proven right."
I'm curious, what happens when YOU'RE proven right and Charles wrong? Weird how you don't even allow for that possibility in your soliloquy.

FrankM said...

AC - your versions get slicker and slicker.

I almost feel sorry for CM, who seems merely to have been in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time.

An honourable man , who was loyal to his friends and would not rat on them.

Unlike Polanski, Frykowski and LaBianca, 'who were involved in all kinds of illegal activities''.

Thanks for straightening us out on this.

FrankM

brownrice said...

AC's post actually sounds a lot more believable than most of the other bullshit that gets flung around.

I don't think she's trying to portray Charlie as a squeaky clean victim. She says-
"He should've gotten 18 years for knowledge before and after the fact."
Which sounds about right to me.

About the only thing I find unbelievable is...
"The only way to stop the drug trade and subsequent loss of life is to completely cease the flow of illegal drugs and guns into this country from Mexico. A nice big tall thick wall would do the trick."

AC, they've been trying stuff like that since at least NIxon and it's only made things worse.

In my opinion, the only way to sort out society's problematic relationship with drugs is to legalise them, tax them and educate people in a non-hysterical, truthful, informed way about the effects of different drugs. It'd take about a generation to sort itself out but we've already screwed up several generations with the "just say no" approach.

But that's really a whole other discussion best suited for a different blog...

Shimmy said...

Ok... AC

I have been reading your responses for years, and somehow have always pictured you baking brownies, and replying in between bites. You can say all you want, lets not bullshit about what they were. Regardless of what you thin your beloved "Charles" has to say about it. No matter what the VICTIMS did with their lives, nothing can compare to the shit that was going on up in the pass, or everywhere else they were for that matter.

I am sure you are a very sweet lady.. but awful glad your not 17.and this isn't 1969.

crash said...

My thoughts have always been..
Bikers come down on them for bad dope they got from hinman. They go to hinman, a friend, who insists it was okay and things go bad and they kill him. They later find out, through a biker friend, that the dope wasnt bad but they were set up by a competing dealer(frykowski, sebring) who were now working with the bikers. They lose it, their friend is dead because of a lie from people. They send tex and he freaks out and kills everyone. Joe is the one who fills them in on it being the dealers and bikers screwing them so they "owe him one heart". So they do the favor he asks the next night.
Everyone paid up.

Luigi said...

This has nothing to do with TLB, but for fuck's sake!: it's not about legalizing drugs or building a friggin wall on the border - it's a) about the US government policies on Latin American countries, and b) about the US government stop claiming to be fighting drug-dealing and stop dealing drugs itself!

Arms and drugs deals are profitable source of income, tax-free.

Luigi said...

What if Polanski was the real target that night?

Otherwise, a warning to him? If you're going to kill someone, isn't it much better to go after his/her loved ones instead?

Make him/her die slowly...


There's a lot of people who know a lot more than they've told, and we probably won't know because they will never come clean about it all.

Brian Davis said...

Hell to yhe YES it does !

louis365 said...

I have always been very suspicious of Suzan LaBerge's "take" to Tex

"Go with Tex and do what ever he tells you to do ...ok?..now is the time...Helter Skelter

Shimmy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shimmy said...

Patty


In 08, over the course of a few a weeks,i was spending alot of time at my friends house (we are related by marriage). He never would just come out and talk about those days, so i spent alot of time just going over and gently proddig. I had to take mental notes, go home and write them down. Thankfully, i had sent them all to a dear friend who was over at KTS with me, and she saved them! I will break some down and post.

Shimmy

katie8753 said...

Hi Brian! Long time no see. I heard your broadcast tonight on Stephanie Schram. Good to see you. Come visit us at LSB3.com. We'd love to have you!

St. Circumstance said...

AC...

Thanks for putting that out there and addressing my questions...

I dont want to argue about your facts being right or wrong-

I just want to know what Charlie says about the facts- and only when he says them in a coherent and placid mood...

I do not believe some of things to be true- but I am very interested to know if Charlie says they are to his friends, or if his friends just put this out there for him??

We both blame Tex for these murders more so than Charlie- but I have never read a word anywhere else in twenty years of looking at this stuff which says Tex wanted to be a 1% biker

But That doesn't mean it isn't so..

Chose your fiends wisely AC...

I leave you with this :)

Be careful the environment you choose for it will shape you; be careful the friends you choose for you will become like them.
W. Clement Stone


Support your friends – even in their mistakes. But be clear, however, that it is the friend and not the mistake you are supporting.
Hugh Prather

Panamint Patty said...

Thank you Shimmy, good stuff!rophoo

ACFisherAldag said...

Vera, it was illegal gambling debts, and no, I've not asked all the gory details, because I truly do not care. Charles did not "select" the LaBiancas, whoever the shot-caller was did so. The mechanic fixes the bikes, he does not set policy.

Charles maintains that he was not at the LaBianca house... he states that he received a traffic ticket, that night, miles away, and several people have checked on that... the ticket is missing, and there are a few numbers that aren't in the sequence. If he'd received a ticket, there should be a copy with all the other traffic citations that still exist from that time period.

Also, I still believe that it wasn't possible to cram eight adult people into one car.

We should put Evil Liz and Matt and company on it. They can find anything! Find the traffic ticket issued to Charles!

Vera asked what happens when I'm proven right... I do a very mature and sophisticated "Toldja so" dance. It involves drums, fifes and a lively jig.

Perhaps, Frank, I'm getting "slicker" over the years as I'm getting more information or as I'm told, "Yeah, that was pretty much it". There are several quite similar versions of what I've been saying all along, told by various friends of Charles's, in Marlin's book. Note: I made many of these comments prior to the book's release. Not derivative, parallel.

Brownrice, we've never tried a wall across the Mexican border. With gun turrets and snipers. Legalizing and taxing, fine... how are people gonna pay the taxes when they are too wasted to work? And education about drugs ain't gonna solve the problem... these young people see friends, parents, family members wobbling around on crack, jumpin and tweakin on meth, and it doesn't induce abstinence, so how to you suppose a lecture and book learning would help?

Shimmy, I do not blame the poor young women who were caught in the crossfire, including Sharon Tate. However, I doubly blame the menfolk who were dealing, and thus responsible for getting their loved ones killed. Nearly all of H'wood was involved in illicit activities. Drugs, sex with minors, all kinds of crap. Sooner or later, somebody was gonna get nailed for it.

Crash, that sounds plausible.

Luigi, not all drugs are coming from South America. Black tar heroin comes to Mexico from Afghanistan, for example.

Charles wouldn't know all the reasons and motivations. He simply knows that he's doing a friend a favor, putting him together with a guy who's supposed to be muscle. Charles isn't gonna know deep dark secrets of any organization, since he was just the wrench. Do you entrust your auto mechanic with all the details of your business?

ACFisherAldag said...

St. Circumstance, Tex was a dope dealer, which has been established. The issue with Crowe was all about a drug debt. TJ was in a bike club, went along with Tex to Crowe's. Tex was very likely a "prospect" or "probate" which means, like, an apprentice, at this time. Charles was also in this bike club as the mechanic. You look at some of the interviews, including in Marlin's book, where Charles calls Tex a "soldier". Listen to interviews where Charles talks about the Crowe incident. Charles believes that Tex "owed" for TJ and Charles going to rescue that young lady from the dope dealers. He screwed up that particular operation, so he had to make up for it.

I think all of this business had been percolating for a while. It's pretty much established that Crowe and Hinman had something to do with the drug trade. There were fights about people owing each other money. Fights about bad drugs. It seems as though it was all coming to a head. It wasn't random.

You ask if Charles puts this out there, yes, some of it... and much of it is in old-fashioned slang, prison language, and metaphor. It's not at all linear narrative. Some of it, people ask questions... like a game of hot and cold. And some of it he's not gonna say anything about, because he believes it might incriminate people. And some of it gets so boring, like, war stories told by an elderly uncle, that I needed to change the subject and talk about ATWA, or something more worthwhile.

TomG said...

Some kids got into a scuffle with a few big shots down in LA. In hindsight, it probably could have been handled better. Tex Watson was a jerk off from day one.

The prohibition of drugs seems to be following the course of the prohibition of alcohol. Fail.

crash said...

Thanks AC,
I always felt it was obvious that the person who set up hinman and bobby were the targets of tex and company. If they found out one friend was dead and one in prison over a lie told by rival drug dealers through bikers in order to ruin them they would go bonkers. And tex did.
The "get every house on the street" probably only really meant get sebring after you get frykowski. They got them both together by luck, so they didnt do the next house which probably meant sebrings house. 'Next' meaning, on the list, not on the street. But it served the women well to be able to say that they were supposed to get every house on the street, making it appear totally random.
Labiancas were probably a favor for a tip, they were money laundering, or they were directly involved somehow.
It was revenge for the himman/bobby set up. And they WERE MAD.

St. Circumstance said...

Thank you- again- AC for your very direct answers to my questions...

:)

katie8753 said...

>>>AC said: TJ was in a bike club, went along with Tex to Crowe's.>>>

No he didn't.

>>>Tex was very likely a "prospect" or "probate" which means, like, an apprentice, at this time.>>>

No he wasn't.

>>>Charles believes that Tex "owed" for TJ and Charles going to rescue that young lady from the dope dealers. He screwed up that particular operation, so he had to make up for it.>>>

So THAT'S why he ordered Tex to murder at TLB. HA HA.

>>>It's pretty much established that Crowe and Hinman had something to do with the drug trade. There were fights about people owing each other money. Fights about bad drugs.>>>

No there weren't. No one was complaining about bad drugs, with either Hinman or Crowe. Hinman's murder was because Charlie told Bobby that Hinman had inherited money and he wanted it.

>>>You ask if Charles puts this out there, yes, some of it... and much of it is in old-fashioned slang, prison language, and metaphor....

His usual gobbly-gook. No sense makes sense...right AC??? HA HA.

>>And some of it he's not gonna say anything about, because he believes it might incriminate people.>>>

Now ain't that Swwwweeeeeeetttt!!!! He's just like a little-old butterfly. It's okay to kill folks, but don't snitch!! HA HA.

La-de-la said...

"Toldja so" dances are a sign of an insecure, small mind and even smaller heart.

Shimmy said...

I couldn't take notes because I was trying to act like I was more interested in the whole 60's vibe.. He said it made him uncomfortable because he hadn't spoken of it in 40 years.. I said I understood. It's funny, we were sitting outside, staring up at the Santa Susanna mountains and so I started by asking about Danny. He talked a little about Danny's mom and sister and I said, don't you think its sad that all this time went by and no one ever saw him again? He said "the program" He said that actually Danny was a really smart, and good guy.. He said that Danny hung out with 2 brothers they grew up with, Joe and John Schumaker (I think that was the last name, no notes) I guess Joe was one mean SOB and Danny was dragging all of them to the ranch, I said because of the drugs? and Steve said, and the girls.

Vera Dreiser said...

AC, If you caught Charles in a Big Lie would you maybe be less, uh, blindly devoted?
If I produced a copy of the ticket would you eat crow and admit that he'd been lying to you and so many others all along? I've seen the ticket. I know where it is and, given some time, can get back to it and make a photocopy and then publish it on here (thru the help of Dear Colonel, if he'd be so kind) and then maybe all you blindly believing beezlebubs could finely stop harping about the ticket as the alibi!
The ticket was issued to the Chuckster on THURSDAY, August 7, 1969, in Oceanside at 6:15 PM -- more than 24 hours before the Tate slayings, and, of course, two days before LaBianca.
Oh, and if Charlie drove directly to Spahn from Oceanside after getting the ticket Thursday evening he woulda made in time -- 2 hours driving straight up the coast -- for a good dumpster dinner if the kids sat down for grub at 8:15 PM. The NIGHT BEFORE THE FIRST MURDERS.
Whadda ya say, AC, we on?

Vera Dreiser said...

AC, If you caught Charles in a Big Lie would you maybe be less, uh, blindly devoted?
If I produced a copy of the ticket would you eat crow and admit that he'd been lying to you and so many others all along? I've seen the ticket. I know where it is and, given some time, can get back to it and make a photocopy and then publish it on here (thru the help of Dear Colonel, if he'd be so kind) and then maybe all you blindly believing beezlebubs could finely stop harping about the ticket as the alibi!
The ticket was issued to the Chuckster on THURSDAY, August 7, 1969, in Oceanside at 6:15 PM -- more than 24 hours before the Tate slayings, and, of course, two days before LaBianca.
Oh, and if Charlie drove directly to Spahn from Oceanside after getting the ticket Thursday evening he woulda made in time -- 2 hours driving straight up the coast -- for a good dumpster dinner if the kids sat down for grub at 8:15 PM. The NIGHT BEFORE THE FIRST MURDERS.
Whadda ya say, AC, we on?

Vera Dreiser said...

AC, If you caught Charles in a Big Lie would you maybe be less, uh, blindly devoted?
If I produced a copy of the ticket would you eat crow and admit that he'd been lying to you and so many others all along? I've seen the ticket. I know where it is and, given some time, can get back to it and make a photocopy and then publish it on here (thru the help of Dear Colonel, if he'd be so kind) and then maybe all you blindly believing beezlebubs could finely stop harping about the ticket as the alibi!
The ticket was issued to the Chuckster on THURSDAY, August 7, 1969, in Oceanside at 6:15 PM -- more than 24 hours before the Tate slayings, and, of course, two days before LaBianca.
Oh, and if Charlie drove directly to Spahn from Oceanside after getting the ticket Thursday evening he woulda made in time -- 2 hours driving straight up the coast -- for a good dumpster dinner if the kids sat down for grub at 8:15 PM. The NIGHT BEFORE THE FIRST MURDERS.
Whadda ya say, AC, we on?

beauders said...

i wonder has anyone looked at money laundering issues for the labianca murders?
money laundering is not rare. i know of a family that was totally torn apart by it. the man owned a used car lot in the bay area and laundered money for the oakland mob. he wanted out and they said, no, then his wife started getting phone calls saying we know where and when your kids get off the school bus, we're going to kill them then rape you etc. in the end the man went to jail lost everything financially and was divorced. the woman had to take the kids and move out of california.

melee1969 said...

Beauders, the man you're describing wasn't slashed to death with his wife, was he?

They didn't die. They moved. The LaBiancas didn't get that choice now did they?

So how does this compare to the LaBiancas?

beauders said...

i was just commenting that labianca may have been laundering money and laundering money is not that rare.

bobby said...

AC, I had never heard that Tex wanted in one of the biker gangs. However Bobby B. has stated in interviews & on his website that his actions with Hinman including the murder were to impress the bikers.

I agree your version sounds plausible but as Vera points out Charlie's lie about the date of the ticket discredits his story.

You have mentioned many times that Charlie was the biker gangs mechanic. I find that dubious. How reliable could he be serving in that capacity. He was busy with many other hobbies & travel during his short time out of prison. The mechanics work that he did with turning cars into dune buggies alone would seem to counter to biker mechanic.

with respect

Bobby

Shimmy said...

Bobby

Totally not true. Not one of those guys would have let Charlie or anyone else work on their bikes. As for Tex, ha! He was no biker, not with that crew....

ACFisherAldag said...

Shimmy, they let deCarlo in. The person vetting the prospects must've been asleep that day.

Vera Dreiser said...

(Sigh), another deafeningly silent response from AC to Vera's sincere challange.

FrankM said...

If CM was a bikers' mechanic, where did he work from? In 68 and 69 he was moving a lot between Spahn and Barker, and staying in a number of other residences. He was also off on other kinds of business, stuff we probably don't know the half of.

Now if I have a bike and it breaks down I need to know where my mechanic is. I'm not going to get a non-driving Harley up the Goler Wash in case he's there, or trudge around LA looking for where he might be.

And I don't think Charlie had/has the focus to stay with one thing very long. Tuning a bike is as much an art as a science, and needs love and dedication (I had a '47 Harley of my own once and know something about the matter).

He probably was a reasonable shade-tree mechanic, but hey, a lot of guys were back then. I learned to do a lot of stuff with bikes cos I couldn't afford to pay anyone else to do it. But I don't know that any serious biker who loved their hog was going to give it to Charlie to play with.

I never hung with biker gangs, although I did do a few runs. But I know people who did, and most serious bikers I knew in the 60s could strip and reassemble their own machines blindfold, and would never go to an outside mechanic who might change your parts or fuck up your tuning. Why would they? We're not talking weekend bikers here, rich bankers with a spanking new bike they keep in a locked garage and ride twice a month. We're talking bikers, guys who treat a bike with more respect than a woman and guard it in the same way.

So, AC, I don't really buy it, not that you'll care. But I would like you to reply to Vera's (three identical) post(s).

FrankM

katie8753 said...

We know Charlie was at Spahn's Ranch on August 8th. Everyone there has confirmed it. The girls all said that Charlie said "go with Tex and do whatever Tex says" and "leave something witchy". Stephanie has confirmed that he was there.

The ticket is not important.

AC, why do you listen to Charlie like it's the gospel truth? He's going to tell you what you want to hear, which has nothing to do with the truth.

I agree with Frank & Bobby. When in the hell did Charlie have time to open up a service garage for broken-down bikes?? He was flittin' all over the place looking for new recruits.

Marliese said...

Charlie the motorcycle mechanic. Pray tell...where did Charlie get his tools?

Ruby Pearl testified that she never saw Charlie do any work around the ranch, not ever.

Charlie has been described by people that actually knew him in those days as supremely lazy. He didn't work...he pimped, he cheated, he mooched, he helped himself, he stole, he encouraged others to steal for him.

He used, abused, and mistreated the environment, the property of others, and everything else he touched. He wasn't a motorcycle mechanic and it's highly unlikely he was a facilitator for some imaginary mob organization.

ACFisherAldag said...

Vera, I did answer you... you will notice that your comment posted three times, while mine seems to have disappeared. Google glitch.

I said: I wish to see the actual ticket or a really good scan, to see if it's been altered. A photocopy or photograph is too easy to change.

Good luck finding it, as journalists from the USA, the UK, Canada and Israel have not been able to produce it.

Vera Dreiser said...

Thatta girl, AC. I will obtain a crystal clear copy for you as soon as I can get to the receptacle where it is stored. It may take a month or even a little more, as I'm not allowed access without an administrator present, and it requires a trip from home, but I will obtain it for you and I do hope you will be reasonable in your reassessment of the case, and your friend, after examining it.

ACFisherAldag said...

The same tools and garage as used to work on the dune buggies. Like, hello.

Back in the day, a Harley and a Volksie only required a pair of pliers and a crescent wrench to fix. No "closed system" and no fancy metric tools.

Yet they still required parts... and I am willing to bet that the Ranch had lots of those. Most of 'em hotter than a coal hod in July.

Why'd you have to push the bike up the ravine? Wouldn't you put it on a pickup truck or trailer and drive it on over?

ACFisherAldag said...

Marliese, Charles also did work on the ranch such as caring for horses. In Marlin's book he describes a particularly ill-tempered horse.

ACFisherAldag said...

Vera, where is it (the citation) being held? Why is it not on file with the Oakland PD, where it is supposed to be? Why is the ticket not part of the trial's evidence? And why isn't a copy stored w/ said evidence? Why is there no microfilm copy of it anywhere?

Suppression of evidence? Ignoring a Public Information Act request?

Vera Dreiser said...

"Vera, where is it (the citation) being held?"

In an official repository of evidence on the case held by the City of Los Angeles.

"Why is it not on file with the Oakland PD, where it is supposed to be?"

Oceanside, not Oakland. And because it is the ticket Manson RECEIVED and left in the bakery truck. It was recovered from the truck by LASO after Brunner and Good's arrest in said truck on August 8; and then moved over to the evidence repository where it remains today. Why you think it was "lost" I'll never know.

"Why is the ticket not part of the trial's evidence? And why isn't a copy stored w/ said evidence? Why is there no microfilm copy of it anywhere?
Suppression of evidence? Ignoring a Public Information Act request?"

No, it IS w/ the evidence.

bobby said...

Sorry, But even back then a guy with a cresent wrench & pliers a bikers gang mechanic is not made.

I have a vintage Harley & the side cases's for the primary chain will require a special wrench.

The story is Tex was the dune buggy mechanic.

Ken619 said...

Vera,

I'd love to see the ticket. Not because I need proof, but it might give a better description of where it happened in Oceanside. I want to get an image of where it happened.

From what Schram said, they were heading south on the highway. That means they were pulled over by the Highway Patrol. The Highway Patrol are State Police. That means the records of it would not be in Oceanside. They would be held in the State records. If that is in Sacramento or Oakland, I don't know.

As for the ticket that CM held in his hands, you know more than I.

FrankM said...

AC says:

The same tools and garage as used to work on the dune buggies. Like, hello.

Back in the day, a Harley and a Volksie only required a pair of pliers and a crescent wrench to fix. No "closed system" and no fancy metric tools.


AC, if you're gonna like hello me, pray do tell me how with this minimalist tool kit you're gonna get a tire off, change plugs, calibrate gaps, adjust tappets and rocker head asemblies, change piston rings,.....

Oh, why do I bother? You have an answer for everything, except why you are so blind to reason.

FrankM<

candy and nuts said...

Im still curious how AC et al will say the tate/labianca killings were about some drug burn etc but RED and BLue have said many times about how "wasnt the killings of tate/ labianca enough to wake up the world about pollution?" wonder why the girls who were actually there at the ranch at the time who basically ran things say a much different version of the reasonings of the murders then AC does...just wondering

Marliese said...

Ken619 said...>>>>>

From what Schram said, they were heading south on the highway. That means they were pulled over by the Highway Patrol. The Highway Patrol are State Police. That means the records of it would not be in Oceanside. They would be held in the State records. If that is in Sacramento or Oakland, I don't know.<<<<<<<<<<<



I believe state records and state department of justice records are held in record repositories in Sacramento, but I don't believe routine traffic citations qualify for permanent retention status...per retention and disposition laws and guidelines for California public records.

Records that qualify for permanent retention include criminal records... felonies, certain high level misdemeanors and traffic crimes..as opposed to traffic infractions. Sex crimes, crimes involving violence, and countless other public records and documents qualify for permanent retention, while some other public records are retained only two, five, ten years etc etc.

An original citation for a traffic infraction wouldn't qualify for permanent retention, though I think the final disposition of it would be noted on the recipient's DMV record.

You'd think the state's original of this ticket would have been retained considering any purge cycle associated with it hadn't been reached by the time of the recipient's arrest for felony murder...still i don't think it's unreasonable to believe the original was eventually routinely purged...as opposed to some baseless conspiracy idea.

What Vera is talking about...the ticket handed to Charlie, discarded in the truck, and recovered by the LASO and retained as evidence in a criminal investigation..i'd love to see that too!

Marliese said...

ACFisherAldag said...
Vera, where is it (the citation) being held? Why is it not on file with the Oakland PD, where it is supposed to be? Why is the ticket not part of the trial's evidence? And why isn't a copy stored w/ said evidence? Why is there no microfilm copy of it anywhere?<<<<<<<<<<<<



No, it's not 'supposed to be' in the Oakland PD.

And as evidence of what? That he wasn't there? It's documented that he was there...by witnesses other than co-defendants.

The belief that Charlie hadn't returned to Spahn's Ranch on the afternoon of Friday, August 8, 1969 is a false belief.

There is no microfilm copy because laws of the State of California do not mandate permanent retention of low level traffic infractions...

Marliese said...

ACFisherAldag said...>>>>
Marliese, Charles also did work on the ranch such as caring for horses. In Marlin's book he describes a particularly ill-tempered horse.<<<<


He supposedly communicated with half dead birds too...

Whatever delusional nonsense he rambled on about to Marlin doesn't change the factual evidence that he did not work on the ranch...

FrankM said...

For AC to explain ...

Closing Argument, The State of California v. Charles Manson et al.
Delivered by Vincent Bugliosi , Los Angeles, California, January 15, 1971


Ruby Pearl testified that she has worked at Spahn Ranch for twenty years, and in recent years had been the manager of the ranch working for Mr. Spahn who is some eighty-three years old.
She first saw Manson in midsummer of 1968 when Manson came to the ranch with "one or two men and several girls." Some of the girls were Mary Brunner, Lynette "Squeaky" Fromme, Susan Atkins, Sandra Good, Ruth Morehouse, Helen Bailey, and Brenda McCann. She said the group called themselves the Family. In return for room and board, the girls in the Family cooked, cleaned, helped with the office work. The men took care of the trucks. They did not tend to the horses. Ranch hands working for Mr. Spahn did that. She said she never saw Charles Manson ever do any work at the ranch. She said Charles "Tex" Watson was always working on trucks and dune buggies, and was a good mechanic. She said the original group grew to between twenty and thirty. She recalls Leslie Van Houten started living there in the late summer of 1968.


My bold.

FrankM

Ken619 said...

Marliese,

Thanks for clearing that up.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Vera, when a police officer issues a citation, they keep a copy, and they give you a copy.

What you are talking about is the copy given to Charles, which is likely a carbon copy.

What I am talking about is the copy kept at the police station. It was supposed to have been kept, put on microfilm, perhaps, or stored in the original ticket book.

THAT is the one that is gone.

I am sure that the ticket that was given to Charles, then taken back as evidence, says whatever the prosecutor wanted it to say.

The original could not have been fudged. I wanna see the original police copy.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Frank, how the heck did they manage to tear apart Volkswagens and turn them into dune buggies?

I recall the VW company advertising that you could take the whole thing apart with a pair of pliers. Sure, it was an exaggeration, but cars and bikes were easier to work on. Or so I'm told, since I've never done so.

Charles had learned to work on vehicles in one of the boys' homes and one of the prison bids.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
katie8753 said...

What difference does it make where the ticket is?

Charles Manson was at Spahn's Ranch on August 8th, 1969. He ordered the murders at Cielo Drive. Period.

>>>Frank said: She said she (Ruby) never saw Charles Manson ever do any work at the ranch.>>>

'nuff said. The only thing Charlie was ever serious about, other than getting laid, lying, stealing, brainwashing, threatening, molesting, abusing and orchestrating drug orgies and murder was his stupid "music career", which didn't even exist.

Marliese said...

Ken, you're welcome. And thanks.

And sincere thanks to you for all the photos you've taken and posted on Liz's site.

Appreciate all the photos but especially your then and now photos....they remind me of a "place history perspective."

LSB3 had some awesome 'then' photos awhile back, the Spahn's Ranch mailbox of all things...sitting on its crooked little pole, and George's house...
And Col had an entire photo tour of tlb places here several weeks ago...some that haven't been seen before. Love all of it.

Anyway, thanks again...the time and effort you spend capturing all these photos is appreciated.

Ken619 said...

Marliese,

Thanks again. I'm glad someone enjoys the pictures.

I have a lot more to post. Some are Topanga Canyon locations that have never been seen before. Liz has been communicating with someone that was there and she is helping us with it. Neat stuff!

FrankM said...

AC asks

Frank, how the heck did they manage to tear apart Volkswagens and turn them into dune buggies?

I recall the VW company advertising that you could take the whole thing apart with a pair of pliers. Sure, it was an exaggeration, but cars and bikes were easier to work on. Or so I'm told, since I've never done so.

Charles had learned to work on vehicles in one of the boys' homes and one of the prison bids.

Well you probably can take the bodywork apart with a pair of strong pliers or cutters. And a buggy used the same chassis as a beetle, and the same flat-four engine from a VM (or Porsche in those days if you could steal one). So VW had a point.

But we were talking motorbikes as I remember, not cars. They have things like cams and cranks, transmissions, alternators, chains, suspension, you know the kind of thing (actually, I'm wondering if you do know). With just pliers and a crescent wrench you really wouldn’t get very far.

I do really find the idea of CM as a mechanic to a biker gang as laughable as your determination not to recognise some of his less charming aspects.

FrankM

George Vreeland Hill said...

Money was not the root of the murders.
Those victims were butchered to death by crazy people because of Manson.
He hated people who had more power than him.
Manson hated Melcher.
Manson hated people who had money.
Manson hated people who had fame.
Manson could not have any of that.
So he went and did it his way.
A few idiots were dumb enough to fall for Manson's bs.
The rest is history.

George Vreeland Hill

grimtraveller said...

Col Scott said...

I can't establish any of this
True.


but it starts to add up, doesn't it?
Not really. You said virtually the same thing not so long before this thread, about drugs.