Sunday, January 27, 2008

Other Groups and The Col


The Col doesn't play well with others. I admit that. All my report cards always would say that. Why? Well that should be obvious. Most people aren't worth playing with. They are willfully ignorant, lazy, or just biologically stupid.

When I started on my quest for the truth of TLB eleven years ago, it was a different world. The only site was Nellie's unless you counted ATWA which I didn't. ATWA spent pages telling me Charlie was not five feet two. And he is. Soon after Nellie spewed his puke into the ether the Ronson board appeared. FULL of pretenders to being in "The Family." The only "real" person was Karen Mccoy Montecillo who claimed to be a girlfriend of Steven Parent. She was a girl who was his friend, but him being gay, not his girlfriend. And she is now dead. Ronson eventually was revealed as phony with a Neve Campbell obsession. Nellie was outed by ATWA as a multiple count child molester. As was Larry Melton, the asshole known as White Rabbitt. Charlie made Blue shut ATWA down and I think that was the beginning of the end of her obsessions with him.

After that implosion around the turn of the century, the only place left was the YAHOO Group Killed the Sixties. On several occasions the Col saw that there were people there that knew what they were doing. The Col would join up there and get chased out because he had no time for small talk. He wanted to know what they knew. The Col must have been chucked out AT LEAST 25 times. Finally, he arranged to stay and mostly watch. Mostly.

Mark Turner had had his site, and occasionally updated it. No real firsthand research. Not often enough. It was a good site to have. Then he started a message board and banned people who told him he was delusional. This made him evil. He then started defending and promoting Dennis Rice, even trying to sell a (fraudulent) vest for the guy who left his children behind to be molested by Clem and others.

Somewhere in there I saw the Candygramma group and found something interesting in there. This has led to the biggest time suck of the last two years as the Col fought with stupid trailer park housewives who look like shit and know shit. I would get sidetracked by Jim, the delusional obsessed fan from, Staten Island who used to post here as "Savage". Then delete every post for no reason at all. What a mess. But he does understand much of the case, even if he believes a hardened, remorseless old lady should be freed. And Aaron over there always got it, but chose to stay with the biddies anyway. I left last week, and despite some illiterate, retarded emails from Candyass and Cuntyl who got their own bad selves moderated at KTS, I am done with it.

This leaves Bret's site. I don't know where the hell he came from, but some dude in Iceland has put me, AesNihil, Scramblhed, Turner, and any researcher in to the case to shame. He doesn't show his opinion often and when he does I tend to disagree. But his site is THE site out there now.

THIS place is a site of my opinions, thoughts and references as I look for the truth. People who are not wankers are welcome to post THEIR thoughts and opinions. This is not an intramural baseball game. If people want to attack and mock us, good. We have been here for years and yo can find more truth here than anywhere but Bret's. By discussing the idiocy of CG we give her power when she deserves none because, well she is an idiot.

If it isn't a reliable, primary source it doesn't deserve our attention. I mean, weeks spent dealing with Melton, who is a sad excuse for a human? No more.

Forward for the truth. It is out there.

76 comments:

FrankM said...

Col, this was one of your best ever posts. Say I.

One query - why are you so sure CM was a 5' 2" shortass (not that it matters) - when so many documents exist showing him to be 5' 6" or 5' 7"?

I know it's not important but you are usually good on detail.

Oh, and Bret's email seems to show him as being in Iceland, but his youtube page refers to Denmark.

Guess that doesn't really matter either.

But I did enjoy this post

Frank

Brian Davis said...

Col, THANK YOU for this post !

I have been sitting back hoping you would address this little issue.

I have been hoping you wouldn't let
that other group derail the program here.

For whatever it is worth, I could care less what they are posting about this case or this group over there and certainly dont want to see it copied and pasted in here.

We are better and above that.

I love this place and despite my novice level of expertise I am honored to be part of such an esteemed group of people on this subject.

Frank, I realize you asked the Col but if I may say too, I have seen a pic of Manson being booked and he is standing up against a height ruler and he looks to come up right at 5'2". Just sayin.

Thanks All ! And Thanks Col !

augusteigth1969 said...
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agnostic monk said...

don't forget catscradles's amazing site, which includes material you simply can't find anywhere else.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Blog Wars, da da da Blog Wars...

Alrighty, this missive is addressed to the general population of the Yahoo list called "Charles Manson and Family"... 'cuz I know you're reading this.

Jim from NY: If you don't like what is written herein, then WHY, pray tell, do you continue to torture yourself by reading it? IF you're gonna support someone who is on the inside, then you'd best grow yourself a much thicker skin, or you're gonna break down in tears or something, and be totally useless to your loved one behind the walls. ***YES*** you are supposed to just ignore it, for pitysake!!! Go send her a card from Inside Outz, or do something else worthwhile.

Raven: What were you doing in 1975? If you are who I think you are, you are 10 years younger than Ruth Ann, and you are five inches taller. Still on that "vegan diet"? If my no-will-power lazy a$$ can kick it, then you certainly can too.

White Rabbitt: My Davey would like to cordially invite you to this year's Hogg Bash in Bangor MI. However, I would like to make a serious attempt to talk you out of it. P.S. Still ridin' b*tch?

Now for my esteemed colleagues posting on this blog:

August: You made your point. Please give it a rest.

Frank: You done rattled the cage now.

Col: Good things come in small packages!

Brian Davis said...

You are definitely correct there Agnostic !

Cats has an incredible site !

Between the Col, Cats and Brett including their respective YouTube pages, it's all I need.

From here on out it is all a matter of catching up and then catching up again and again until we find out the truth or it finally comes out on it's own.

In the meantime, I am still going back and reading the Col's previous posts here trying to catch up.
I pick up things here I dont get anywhere else. For example. I never knew Steven Parent was gay. Irrelevant but somewhat interesting because I have not heard that anywhere else.

Also Col, am I (we) to understand that Sandy Good has completely denounced Charlie ? "...Charlie made Blue shut ATWA down and I think that was the beginning of the end of her obsessions with him."

What other factors were there that led to Sandy doing this besides having to shut down the ATWA site ?

And Col, Sir, Do you know the story behind that ? Why did Manson want her to shut it down ? Was he getting heat from the inside for it ?

Who runs that ATWA-Manson Direct site now ?

deadwoodhbo said...

Col for what its worth
YOU!!!!!!! ROCK!!!!!!!!!

Pristash said...

brian davis: Even Bugliosi's book mentions the psychological report on SP which mentioned that he had homosexual tendencies, so that possibility has been floated all along. The Col didn't invent it.

FrankM said...

August

Maybe now enough is enough?

Frank

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Mr. Davis:

"Manson Direct" is run by a friend of Charles's. It is different than the original ATWA.org site, which is available in archives. The ATWA site was hijacked and used to display a grisly picture of the Tate murder, which was neither authorized nor approved.

(Note to the Tate Family -- Peter Wentworth is the current owner of the ATWA site. A lawsuit might be needed to shut this crap down. Willing to join forces w/ "the enemy"? Hurtin' us as bad as it's hurtin' you...!)

The "Manson Direct" site is a valuable resource in that it focuses on the environment, prisoners' rights, and news of Charles Manson's life. The other sites mainly concentrate on the case, parole hearings, etc. Both are needed to maintain truth.

Col.: The reason for quibbling over Charles's height, patronymn, and so forth is to illustrate that lies have been told about him by the popular press. Charles's driver license lists him as 5'6', and his birth certificate lists his father as William Manson. The scanned documents are available on Manson Direct. If the press is lying about things that are a matter of public record, what else are they lying about?

augusteigth1969 said...
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augusteigth1969 said...
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Brian Davis said...

Pristash, You are right there, bud !
I don't think the great Col made that up. That was part of my point...I get things here that I dint get anywhere else about the case. The Parent-gay thing was a sincere example of that.

AC, thanks for answering about the Manson Direct, and I agree with you, it is a needed and valuable site for this case as well.

FrankM said...

August

There's something wrong with your logic here. What you are posting is all the crap off that website that Col left because he couldn't take any more.

And what you are doing is telling us all the vile things that are being said about Col.

If he wanted to see this he would presumably have stayed on the discussion list.

You're right, this is Col's blog, but do you really think he wants to hear in every other post you make what a shit he is?

If you are obsessed about keeping him informed, then just mail him off list. Otherwise it looks very much like you yourself agree with the CG posts and are rubbling Col's nose in them.

And yes, as a blog member I do have a right to make my voice heard, as much as you do.

Thank you.

Frank

FrankM said...

AC

you seem to know a lot about certain things, and I (and I am sure others) respect your knowledge.

What do you know about the Rainbow Order? Was it just set up with Red and Blue? Did others join/get appointed later? How many colours were there and how 'valid' was the contribution/membership of all of these?

Sure would like to know.

Frank

augusteigth1969 said...
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Heaven said...

Ahhhh the old days when the Col and I had a love/hate relationship.. I'm glad those days are behind us and that we're friends..

Keep up the good work here Col!!

Frank, knowing Col Scott as I do I'd say yes, he wants to see what is said about him..

I also know that when he wants it stopped, he'll see to it that it is.. Until then those of us that aren't interested should probably just ignore it...

Least that's my opinion..

Have a great day and stay warm! It's freezing here!!!

=)

Brian Davis said...

Frank,

I dig your inquiry about the Rainbow Order and can't wait for A.C. or maybe someone else who may know to answer. Thanks !

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

augusteigth1969 said...

"Forhavensake says you don't have friends Kernel, you have stooges."

Ooooh! I get to be Curly!!! Any candidates for Moe and Shemp?

Nyuck nyuck nyuck!

Brian Davis said...
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deadwoodhbo said...

ok that is not my deleted Comment i own up if it is:P:P:P:P:P.have a great day heaven

Heaven said...

LOL AC!!

You have a great day as well Becca!

=)

Brian Davis said...

I apologize about the delete comment as I am trying to post the addy to the pic I was referring to about Manson's height - I hope it is ok to post this I just wanted to shed some light on Manson's true height.

Anyone should be able to copy and paste the link below in their browser and see for themselves how tall Manson is or was in 69'.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2319/2226731932_4c8bc154bf.jpg?v=0

It appears he might barely tip 5'3".

Heaven said...

He's a short little guy.. I'm 6 ft tall so I could have used him as a coffee table lol

=)

Brian Davis said...

LOL Heaven !

I'm only 5ft 9" and I'D tower over him. LOL !

Brian Davis said...
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FrankM said...

I accept the evidence of the photo Brian posted, but I'm wondering why he had a California Driving license and charge sheets (see Helter Skelter) both showing his height as 5' 7"?

Maybe he just lied, but you'd think they would have checked.

Frank

Brian Davis said...

Sorry about the delete again, somehow that last comment got posted twice.

I'm having a bad posting day.

Brian Davis said...

For whatever this is worth, I knew a guy that actually did lie on his drivers license and apparently got by with it.
We used to laugh because he added about 2 inches and 10 pounds to himself.
I don't know how common of a practice that is as that guy I knew was the only one I have ever known to do that.
So I guess Manson giving false information is a possiblilty.

Heaven said...

No problem Brian.. We all have days like those! lol

=)

Pristash said...

Wait a second here! You mean I could possibly add some inches officially on my drivers license? How about lose some weight? That would be mad cool. The spouse might dig that too.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

It's possible he's slouching... current records list him as 5'4'; loss of height can be attributed to age. A Ferrari, not a Cadillac, LOL!

Okay, about the Order of the Rainbow / ATWA: Hey, more license to prosthelytize! Gotta love it!

(A disclaimer etched in an enormous slab of basalt with industrial acid...) This is what I understood of what I interpreted of what I deciphered of what I was told. And I don't always "get" everything... not even close.)

The whole environmental movement wasn't just something that one person thought up overnight. It goes back quite some ways... Charles noticed that the WPA dams on the rivers in the Ohio Valley were killing the fish. He realized that spraying pesticides in prison killed not only bugs and spiders, but the birds that ate them. So as he became more aware of the environment, he began to change his behavior. Stopped eating meat. Stopped using bactericides. Began talking about it with the other residents of the so-called "hippy" scene.

At the Ranch, the folks would sit and discuss environmental issues under the pommegranate tree in the front yard, or so I am told. Watching sunsets, listening to the birds. Yes, they really did try to change behaviors that adversely impacted the natural world. Not using soap to wash clothes in the streams. Using rain water to irrigate plants. Natural medicine. Recycling. It was a gradual, yet conscious decision. Charles figured out that things like refrigerants were harmful long before others came to that realization. That pesticides went into the air, and rained down into the aquafier, and from there, it had to go SOMEwhere. Like, into the animals, and if we eat the animals, into our bodies.

During the womens' vigil on the corner, I am told, they had plenty of time to continue the discussion. My guesstimate that the acronymn ATWA came about as early as 1971. Lynette is credited with Air, Trees, Water, Animals; Charles with All the Way Alive. The Order of the Rainbow came about a bit later... but to someone who hasn't much conception of linear time, this is sketchy.

Each lady = a color = a concept of preservation; for instance, Red = Redwood trees. I don't believe Charles came up with this philosophy on his own... it was a construct. He still talks about Red, Blue, Yellow, Green, Gold and Silver. Don't know if there are / were others from the original ladies. Some, like Heather Murphy, came along after the convictions. If they wish to make themselves known, they will. I think dressing in the colors may have been their idea.

As for being "appointed" -- didn't happen. Everything is /was strictly mutual & voluntary. Membership? Giggle. Like, with a sorority pin and dues and everything? I'm sorry, I'm making fun of you. That aspect is totally media-invented. So is being "ordered" to do anything. It's never happened to me, and I seriously doubt anyone else received any "orders" either. Nice polite requests, yes; suggestions, yes; threats of total biospheric extinction, sure... but ordered? No way.

Charles still speaks about "redeeming the planet". How everything green has intrinsic value, including algae, which produces something like 1/3 of all the world's oxygen. Air = God, because without air, we can't exist. How we need nature, but nature doesn't really need US.

And how can we judge validity of a contribution? If someone chooses to write a letter to a corporation, or perform a very theatrical protest... can we count one or the other as being more valid? Others believe that chaining themselves to the fence of the nuke plant is effective. I find that litigation is more effective. (And fun!) The folks putting information out there online about factory farms, are just as valid and effective as those who march carrying signs outside of said farm.

I first heard about "The Rainbow Society" in 1975, in my then-hometown, K'zoo. Some people were protesting the Upjohn Company, which is now Pfizer, for airborne pollutants and animal testing. They spoke about Manson's philosophy. Some of them had color names. Whether or not they were actually associated with The Order of the Rainbow is anyone's guess... but some of the ladies sent & received letters to & from Charles. Same handwriting, same literary style. Some of them claimed to have known him. They were also associated with the nice folks who later sponsored the Rainbow Family Gatherings, and various motorcycle enthusiasts, and, um, purveyors of activities involving the sale of certain tax-free merchandise. There is some debate about whether or not these people really were involved with Charles, or if they were later adherants, or if they were full of BS. He seems to recognize some of their names. Several of them wore the X, as did I, and well, people don't really do that unless they mean business.

As for how many colors, I don't know, there could've been thousands more... or none, or those people were making it all up. For instance, I've never heard of an "Orange". I was "Shadoe" because it's the absence of color. (Inside joke.) There was a girl called Turquoise, supposed to preserve the Great Lakes. A woman called Violet. This is in ONE state out of 50. Why K'zoo Michigan? My theory now is that it's the "mainline" between Detroit and Chicago. However the Rainbow Gatherings / Rainbow Family was nationwide, and remains so.

Disclaimer #2 -- the last two paragraphs are derived from the memory of a 13 - 15 year old girl who consumed a LOT of mind-altering substances, some of them interveinously. And the theory & conjecture of a middle-aged hedge witch who can't balance her own checkbook. As I say when performing tarot readings, "For entertainment purposes only" !!!

agnostic monk said...

Does the DMV even measure one's height during the license application process? I don't recall ever being measured, just filling out the form. I had mine renewed recently and there was no measuring. Maybe it depends on the state, and also Charlie got his license a million years ago so maybe it was different back then.

FrankM said...

Thanks, AC - good of you to do that. Fascinating reading, and I think I may owe you an apology.

And yes, I take your point about sorority pins.

August - do what you have to do - I'm just sorry you feel you have to do it. I feel it lowers the tone of what is fast becoming a very civilized, erudite and unusually well-behaved moment in the history of this blog (I too have read back in the annals).

Frank

agnostic monk said...

*sigh*

I've said this before and I'll say it again (and this is nothing personal against AC at all): Charles Manson had nothing to do with the origins of environmentalism. The "movement" can be traced back to long before Manson. The granddaddies of the modern-day movement (people like Henry David Thoreau and John Muir) would roll over in their graves at the thought of Manson being assigned credit for awareness of environmental destruction.

People like Rachel Carlson (Carson?) were talking about pollutants and pesticides while Charlie was still honing mind games and guitar styles in prison - prior to Spahn Ranch. The issues that some people want to give Manson credit for "realizing" or "discovering" are issues that were brought into the public sphere by others BEFORE Manson and friends sat underneath trees and watched birds. For god's sake the Sierra Club was founded in like the 1800's or something.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, AC, but this kind of romanticism and revisionism of Charlie's ingenuity and impact makes me laugh.

Oh and the Rainbow Gatherings, which have grown and continue to this day, have absolutely nothing to do with Charles Manson, even if some quirky, well-intentioned hippies in Michigan were wearing X's on their forehead back in 1975.

jm30 said...

As a new participant, I have decided I would like to stay out of the line of fire and focus solely on TLB. However, the environmentalism thing does amuse me. I agree with one of the Col's recent posts where he suggested that this ATWA shit was just another flavor of the month for these people.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Hey, JM 30, they done ASKED me. X:-) Give 'em something new to chew on over to CM&F.

Agnostic: Not implying that Charles was the first, or that he originated the environmental movement; just that he was aware before the remainder of mainstream society. Who were still using flurocarbons to spray scented antibacteriants into their armpits, and freon gas to cool their factory-farm produced food, in the late sixties. Nowadays, when we have green products on the shelves of WalMart, recycle bins on our curbside, and tofu sandwiches at Burger King, it's easy to forget how rare were earth-friendly practice, back in the day.

Didja know Thoreau and Emmerson had ladies come out to Walden, to clean and cook for them? Some things never change.

Frank: Apology for what? If you send us a picture of you in pigtails, we'll call it good, hee hee.

agnostic monk said...

And that made him different from the thousands of other "back-to-the-land" hippie types, exactly how?

In 1967, you could throw a rock in California and hit any number of commune-ish groups who were doing the same things (and that includes women cooking and cleaning for the group). Manson globbed onto ideas that were generated by others, and sort of regurgitated the kinds of things that his younger, disaffected friends wanted to hear. His role in bringing awareness of the issues to the public was nil. When he gave his testimony at the TLB trial in 1970, the concept of pollution = bad was not revolutionary or new.

Rachel Carson and other biologists started studying the harmful effects of pesticides and other chemicals back in the 40's, when Manson was committing armed robbery.

I'm not even trying to bash Manson (and certainly not you, AC). I just find it humorous when people suggest that he was some kind of revolutionary thinker or that this ATWA stuff was unique to the times. It wasn't. Sandra Good was educated and even studied botany. So why did/does she insist on promoting Manson as some kind of eco-savior?

agnostic monk said...

(ooops, cont..)

I may be misreading you, but the way you worded your above post seemed to suggest that these ideas were originally his.

i.e. statements such as "Charles figured out that things like refrigerants were harmful long before others came to that realization. That pesticides went into the air, and rained down into the aquafier, and from there, it had to go SOMEwhere. Like, into the animals, and if we eat the animals, into our bodies."

I wasn't even born until 1969 so I wasn't there, but even cursory understanding of history makes it clear that Charles did **not** figure these things out or come to these conclusions on his own or before others any more than Madonna invented sex.

(sorry everyone, I can't help myself)

FrankM said...

A potted history of environmental awareness up to the 70s

In 1739 Benjamin Franklin and others petitioned the Pennsylvania Assembly to stop waste dumping and remove tanneries from Philadelphia's commercial district.

In the 1800s individuals such as John Muir and Henry David Thoreau made key philosophical contributions.

In 1916 the National Park Service was founded by President Woodrow Wilson.

In 1949 A Sand County Almanac by Aldo Leopold was published.

In 1962, Houghton Mifflin published Silent Spring by American biologist Rachel Carson.

Public concern lead to the creation of the United States Environmental Protection Agency in 1970

The agricultural use of DDT was banned in the US in 1972.

In the 1970s the Chipko movement was formed in India; influenced by Mahatma Gandhi

The Back-to-the-land movement started in the mid-1970s along with more radical environmental theories such as deep ecology.

The Endangered Species Act was signed in 1973.

CITES was formed in 1975.

In 1979 James Lovelock published Gaia: A new look at life on Earth, which put forth the Gaia Hypothesis.

All this from an online encyclopedia, which curiously does not mention Charles Manson.

Frank

FrankM said...

AC

Apologies were for underestimating your involvement in commune life at an early age. You wee clearly 'conscious' at an earlier period than I had calculated.

Take care

Frank

Heaven said...
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Heaven said...

I have to agree with Monk here. commune life in the 60's was quite common all over the country...

Charlie was merely following a way of life that had already been established by many others while he was serving time in prison.. The 60's were already well defined by the time he was released...

Saying that Manson invented commune life, or any part of it, is like saying Elvis invented music and black leather..

Sorry for the delete, bad grammar this morning lol

Hope everyone has a great day!!

=)

FrankM said...

Saying that Manson invented commune life, or any part of it, is like saying Elvis invented music and black leather..

Ok, OK, but no one did what Elvis did for music and black leather ...

I'm not gay, but ...

Frank

Heaven said...

Frank that was SO funny!!!

You gave me a great laugh and for that I thank you!!

Elvis was a total hottie, no arguments from me! lol

=)

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Frank said: "All this from an online encyclopedia, which curiously does not mention Charles Manson."

Nor do several musical artists, who've 'borrowed' his song lyrics and tunes... without paying him. Notoriety often has that effect.

Mr. Bugliosi only mentions the environmental aspect AND the music in the most cursory manner. Perhaps because he was trying to push his HS motive. Perhaps because he was being coerced into using Manson as a poster child for wiping out the hippy culture. Including the anti-war and environmental movements. (How does this all relate to TLB, JM 30? There ya have it.)

I'm not implying that Charles invented the environemtnal movement. He put it into practice, raised consciousness, at a time when most folks across this fair nation hadn't a clue. He didn't invent "free love" or commune life, either. Yet when I mention Emma Goldman to my young and impressionable darlings, they go "Who?" like so many little owlets.

MY memories of the seventies include people using chlordane to kill rodents, people opening the back door and chucking their garbage down the hill into Lake Michigan, mutant pheasants walking on top of the floating chemical waste in the papermill leach field, garbage scows towing boxcar-sized loads of garbage into the middle of the lake and dumping it, the county road commission spreading used motor oil on dirt roads to lay the dust, farmers spraying DDT *on* their chickens to remove birdlice, and the K'zoo River being so polluted that the city officials warned people not to touch it, let alone fish in it.

Communes? Hah! Red meat, apple pie, Nixon, Reagan, God and country, and if you longhaired punks don't like it, then move to Russia! The peace symbol is a chicken track. Church and holy matrimony... which didn't prevent 'em from paying myself and my colleagues for certain, um, shall we say, extracurricular recreational services. Hypocrites.

Not sure where ya'all were living, that recycling and earth-friendly practices were automatically implemented at the turn of the septa-decade, cuz, we're still having to fight for the environment here and now. One small step at a time.

Charles hasn't given up the crusade. Viva la Pocket Gophers! And persuading The Treasure of My Heart to stop using airbourne mist hair spray in her salon... that alone should clear the air for several thousand people!

FrankM said...

Communes? Hah! Red meat, apple pie, Nixon, Reagan, God and country, and if you longhaired punks don't like it, then move to Russia! The peace symbol is a chicken track.

Well, AC, I beg to differ, at least with regard to my personal experience.

I lived on a commune for a few years, including 1969 (I choose the year for obvious reasons), and visited others. Ours was a food cooperative (with retail outlet), we all ate macrobiotic food, composted, made our own clothes, grew organic food, recycled lots of stuff, etc. We bartered for what we needed as much as possible (unlike Manson and his coterie we didn’t use Mummy and Daddy’s credit cards). Oh yes - we did eat apple pie - it fitted nicely into a macrobiotic diet. Nixon wasn't flavor of the month and we had a few refuseniks in our community. Dope and sex were open but not the be all and end all. Sex was mostly a private thing, not organized or orchestrated.

I visited other communes, some on a trip to Europe - some were disorganized, some very together. All had differences, but most shared a similar ethos, and being close to the earth was very much part of it. Maybe we were tapping into the Amerindian thing? This was the time of Hair and I knew many of the early cast members. Maybe I was lucky in the communes I visited.

I'd say my experiences with communes in 1969 and thereabouts was fairly typical. I'd characterize our life as gentle, peaceful, idealist - but certainly we knew instinctively about looking after the environment. Chores were fairly divided, with no distinction between men and women – but accepting that certain members had skills others didn’t. We were also relatively tidy - unlike the photos I have seen of Spahn and Barker when the arrests took place, if they can be trusted as representative.

We, like hundreds of others, had got where we were in our relationship with the environment without Charlie’s help – thankfully, as it turned out. I don't think Charlie Manson could have lasted five minutes on a commune. He was too streetwise, too hungry, too much on the make. Charlie was an orchestrator, not a team player.

In short, AC, much as I admire your stamina and enjoy your postings, I think you’re on to a loser here if you continue to defend Charlie Manson as some kind of 60s/70s environmental guru. His thing was much more stealing flat-four VW engines to power his stolen dune buggies so he could raise hell around DV and scare the shit out of the Timbisha.

Frank

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Sounds idyllic, Frank.

By this comment "Communes? Hah! Red meat, apple pie, Nixon..."
I meant that neither communes NOR environmentally secure actions were the norm in Middle America in the 60s and 70s. The baseline was those who drove 8-cylander Oldsmobiles and wore Laura Ashley. Couldn't care less about the Earth. There are enough trees to last forever. We'll never run out of oil. Their closest encounter with the counter-culture was watching "Laugh-In".

The only successful commune I've personally seen is Lake Village Farm, based on Skinnerian philosophy. That includes our own wanna-be ffhaine. While we've yet to have anyone go nutz on speed and wantonly murder people... Dave says we need to re-read the Hippy Cult Leader Training Manual (tm) because he's paying all the bills. Aren't our slavish followers supposed to be waiting on us hand and foot?

About the mess at the Ranch -- I'll reiterate yet AGAIN: police aren't very careful with personal property when searching and seizing. I doubt "the Family" tossed their sofa upside down in the front yard. If you look at pre-incident photos of the kitchen, the common room, the exterior, you'll find a rustic but nicely clean place.

jm30 said...

OK, folks. As far as the environmental stuff goes, I think it's pretty damn simple.

Charlie was a HUSTLER. Period. When he got out of the joint and emerged in the new scene in San Francisco, he was looking for ways to fill his bus full of young girls. And, the environmental stuff was just another one of his hustler games. I don't think he ever gave environmentalism a dime's worth of thought, other than to see it, along with the rest of his incessant BS, as a means to an end....living an easy life and winding up kids to go out to steal credit cards and ransack dumpsters. Simply put, it was just another idea he pulled out of his ass to sell to these insecure kids who were eager to buy it.

deadwoodhbo said...

jm30 said...
it was just another idea he pulled out of his ass to sell to these insecure kids
those so called insecure kids where cold blooded murders.And what do you call bush?one BIG!!!!!! HUSTLER who pulled a war out of his ass causeing many inocent men to die.Manson ,Bush same shit different day or should i say year.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Bush? Manson? Nay, for we are all one in our relentless subserviant stooge-dom to the mighty Colonel Scott! You stroke his ego, I'll tell him only what he wants to hear, and the rest of youse can get terrorized and harrassed. For the Col. is our hippy cult leader, and we must obey him... and I'm sure he's much taller than 5'2" ...wait a minute, wrong dude. Um. Where was I? Yeah. We tremble in fear, lest we agitate the Col. by defending Linda K. or by suggesting that Leslie V.H. be parolled, or by arguing the validity of ATWA. For we must agree with EVERYthing the Col. says, not think for ourselves.

deadwoodhbo said...

C. Fisher Aldag said...
Bush? Manson? Nay, for we are all one in our relentless subserviant stooge-dom to the mighty Colonel Scott! You stroke his ego, I'll tell him only what he wants to hear, and the rest of youse can get terrorized and harrassed. For the Col. is our hippy cult leader, and we must obey him... and I'm sure he's much taller than 5'2" ...wait a minute, wrong dude. Um. Where was I? Yeah. We tremble in fear, lest we agitate the Col. by defending Linda K. or by suggesting that Leslie V.H. be parolled, or by arguing the validity of ATWA. For we must agree with EVERYthing the Col. says, not think for ourselves.

3:00 PM, January 29, 2008

BRILLIANT POST AC!!!!!!!!!!

techie123 said...

As they say in radio, long time listener, first time caller here. Thanks Col. I'll try not to make too big of a fool out of myself. I have no idea how tall Manson is. My drivers license says I weigh 185 lbs. Yeah maybe sometime before the turn of the century. Manson's height is important only in theory. After all it must have been mind control that allowed a 5'2" man to command men much larger than him to commit acts of violence. Remember it is all about feeding the masses.
As for the environment, I wonder what dune buggies and car parts scattered all around did for the desert environment.

angeLos said...

Hello techie123 and welcome

Heaven said...

Welcome Techie!!

Great to have you with us!!

=)

Marliese said...

Heaven said...

Charlie was merely following a way of life that had already been established by many others while he was serving time in prison.. The 60's were already well defined by the time he was released...


Agree with you, Heaven. I think the 60's had peaked by the time Charlie hit the scene...

Marliese said...

Love the picture and the timely stfu, Col. Great post, and the previous too re LVH, with the reminder that she has had her fair share of trials.

agnostic monk said...

by the way, Bret has posted the entire German documentary of charlie and the family in several parts. if you can stand the german dubbing, which you have to tune out mentally in order to hear the english that is being spoken by the interview subjects, it is quite interesting.

It's interesting that charlie says that the girls didn't kill anyone, that it was all tex. why would he say that when we all know it isn't true? he did most, but certainly not all.

Marliese said...

Welcome, Techie. I'm still new too, have you read the archives? Good stuff.

Agree with you about car parts etc left behind...

jm30 said...

deadwoodhbo: Who pissed in your Wheaties this morning? I wasn't defending the young men and women of Spahn. I was stating merely that they were insecure people who were ripe to be sold a line of BS from a hustler like MANSON. And yes, they are murderers. I think I've already gone on the record in a previous post that Sadie Mae can rot in hell for all I care. Same goes for Tex, Katie, Leslie, Bruce, et al.

As for AC: I am still trying to get used to the style of some of your prose, but did I read you to insinuate that somehow I was trying to kiss the Col's ass by agreeing with him in any way, shape, or form? If I agree, I will write as such. And, when I disagree, I will write as such.

P.S. to deadwoodhbo: What the hell does Bush have to do with all of this? Talk about your red herring!

jm30 said...

Techie123...welcome. I am relatively new myself.

Love the observation about the dune buggy parts. I also think driving a gas guzzling school bus up Golar Wash is mighty green, too.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Welcome, Techie; you've only been here for a matter of scant hours, and already I'm fixing to argue with you.

You said: "After all it must have been mind control that allowed a 5'2" man to command men much larger than him to commit acts of violence."

That issue is addressed on page 137 of the _Hippy Cult Leader Training Manual_ (c), "How to make your minions slavishly obey you". Let's try it, shall we?

"Go bring in wood."
"Just a minute."
"Sweep the kitchen floor."
"Just a minute."
"Run over to the neighbors', kill everyone, and write something witchy on the wall."
"Just a minute."

Must be a charisma thing.

You wrote: "As for the environment, I wonder what dune buggies and car parts scattered all around did for the desert environment."

Is your local car-parts scrapyard all nice and neat and orderly? Labeled and filed according to make, model and year? It's called "recycling". Better than letting it rust in the junkyard.

Okay, picked on Techie enough for now, so we turn to Agnostic Monk, who wrote, "It's interesting that charlie says that the girls didn't kill anyone, that it was all tex. why would he say that when we all know it isn't true?"

Um, because he wasn't there, and had no flamin' clue???

And now for August. I'm gonna be nice to you today, because I want something. :-) As you are still aware of the messages posted to the insane and unmentionable Yahoo list, perhaps you might slip me Jim NY's e-mail address. Or ask him to write to me. It concerns a few LVH-related issues, questions and commentary. Nothing mean, I promise. No ridicule, really, truly. Also I've got an URL he might be interested in checking out. Thank you in advance.

FrankM said...

JM

if you're gonna stick around you've got to get it right. Manson never drove any school bus up Goler - he flew it.

Most everyone knows that.

rank

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
FrankM said...

Frank: Charles is good, but not THAT good! :-)

Well, he did bring that bird back to life :-)

As for the school bus, Goler does change a lot from being an easy ride to almost impossible. But I think back in 69 it was particularly bad. A friend of mine who knows the Panamint area told me that there is a longer but easier back passage (if you'll pardon the expression), and that the bus probably went up that way.

But most people believe what they want to believe ..

Frank

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Wrote JM 30: "As for AC: ...did I read you to insinuate that somehow I was trying to kiss the Col's ass by agreeing with him in any way, shape, or form?"

If you ask the individuals over at the untenable Yahoo list, we are ALL the Colonel's sycophants, and shamelessly grovel before him. Reckon my sarcasm license needs a renewal.

"I also think driving a gas guzzling school bus up Golar Wash is mighty green, too."

Sorry, JM 30, it's just your turn today. One school bus uses much less gasoline than 15 POVs. Well, except motorcycles, but ya really can't haul band equipment with them. Nor use them as hotel space. And Frank is correct, the school bus was utilized BEFORE the sojourn at Spahn.

Frank: Charles is good, but not THAT good! :-)

Note to everyone, the delete was mine, something posted twice... so Frank's answer to my comment actually appears prior to the comment. Either that, or it's a time warp in the twilight zone.

Frank: My kids can both heal very sick / dying animals, too. It's a nice talent, but when they can predict the lottery numbers, THEN I'll turn cartwheels.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Frank, you have inspired me... to post a new profile picture.

Jack Daw / Bran / y cronnecddhu

There are pictures of Charles w/ his buddy "Black Devil" all over the internet.

agnostic monk said...

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...
>>>>Um, because he wasn't there, and had no flamin' clue???

Hi AC, I knew that's how you would respond. But he knew. Even if I were willing to go along with the idea that he didn't guide or give tips on where to go and how to kill (which, even as I try to keep an open mind, I am not willing to go along with as of yet), there is no way I buy that he didn't get debriefed on ALL the gory details after the fact.

Which is why it seems odd to me that he made that statement in the doc. It makes me think, along the lines of what the Col said earlier, that Charlie can't really be trusted when it comes to recall.

agnostic monk said...

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...
>>>Must be a charisma thing.

Actually, throw in massive quantities of LSD (plus a sprinkle of speed) and charisma could probably go a very long way towards seeming like magical powers - powers that one might bow down before, powers that make buses fly and dead birds do a Lazarus routine - especially if one is prone to mystical thinking and also sort of desperate and gullible.

(sorry I'm the king of the run-on sentence)

jm30 said...

Frank...
I loaned my copy of Sanders out so I don't have it here to reference, but I believe they did TRY to get the bus up Golar and probably ended up going the back route instead. Wasn't the airborne bus plan a fallback position in case of a sudden outbreak of H.S.?

AC: Since I am new here, can you give me a little background into your position on Charlie and TLB? I sense a little sympathy.

Still waiting to hear back from deadwood on what the hell Bush had to do with TLB...

techie123 said...

Thanks to all for the welcome.
A C we will have different opinions about a lot of things but we won't argue. No need to. The point about Manson's height was that it plays into the whole mind control thing. I don't care how tall he is and I don't think he controlled anybody's mind. That was the Bug's trip. My local junk yard as we call them here doesn't claim to be environmental. I guess at some point they were going to turn those dune buggies back into Volkswagens?

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Agnostic said: "Actually, throw in massive quantities of LSD (plus a sprinkle of speed) and charisma could probably go a very long way towards seeming like magical powers - powers that one might bow down before, powers that make buses fly and dead birds do a Lazarus routine - especially if one is prone to mystical thinking and also sort of desperate and gullible."

Unfortunately, the so-called "Age of Reason" knocked out much of our awe and joy in perfectly normal "magickal powers" that are accepted, even honored, by pre-industrial cultures. Go to your average Pagan festival, you can't throw a stale granola bar without whapping someone who can heal breast cancer, dowse for water, make the barren fertile, screw up electronic implements, predict the last frost, etc. Never seen any flying buses, though. That'd be a really nice talent, with today's petrol prices.

Wrote JM 30: "AC: Since I am new here, can you give me a little background into your position on Charlie and TLB? I sense a little sympathy."

Ha very ha. Please go read the archives from October '07 onward, then see if you've not been adequately answered. And working with young people as you do, you must realize that "position on Charlie" is just begging for a sophomoric, crude sexual joke a la Beavis and Butthead. "Heh heh heh, he said *position*, heh heh!"

Techie wrote: "I guess at some point they were going to turn those dune buggies back into Volkswagens?"

Nope, at some point they were likely going to use the metal to fabricate custom motorcycle parts. "Chopper" means the process of chopping up metal, making new stuff out of it, and applying it to another vehicle, also called a "chopper". Some of the pictures of the Ranch feature such fine metallic works of art.

"Kay" said...

FrankM said:

"Well, he did bring that bird back to life :-)"

That was nothing compared to what the Raving Rabbitt reports of Charlie's phenomenal powers... I quote:

"We had just had a family orgy, when Clem, who was cutting wax off of a candle with a razor blade, missed and sliced his dick off. There was blood everywhere and Clem's dick was on the mattress. Charlie then laid hands on Clem's head and said Heal and miraculously Clem's dick flew up and reattached itself. The blood disappeared. We got on our hands and knees and bowed our heads and said Praise God, our Father healed him. It was a sign that Jesus had returned."

So you see Frank, I'll see your bird and raise you a flying dick.

Now before you become all awe struck at this revelation, I must advise you that since the writings of the Raving Rabbitt were composed, he now claims all of it was purely fiction.

As you say... "Most people believe what they want to believe"....

This concludes my first venture at being a new poster. I have been a lurker for over a year now but recently was inducted into the fold of the Col.

Kay

PS...To anyone who receives this several times via email, I apologize. Obviously I didn't know what I was doing when trying to post it the first time. :(

PSS... Please don't throw rotten tomatoes. It was my first offense.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Hello, Kay, and welcome.

I thought that was Paul that happened to?

But still... Hahahahaha!

"Kay" said...

AC...

Thank you for the welcome. :)

Your comment:

"I thought that was Paul that happened to? But still... Hahahahaha!"

I have no idea. The first I heard about it was when reading the Rabid Rabbitt's riviting tale. lol

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