Thursday, January 31, 2008

Mark Turner Is Desperate












Mark Turner has a big announcement for January 31- Today!


Wait for it.

Hear it comes.

There have been rumors of dead bodies buried at Barker Ranch. And so for most of 2007 some fools, I mean people, have been out there with dogs looking. And they let little Markie come along.

Excuse me I am going to vomit.

Bleeechhh. Thank you.

Okay. So here is where he explains his big announcement.

A first year philosophy student can explain his logical syllogisms. The other team of dogs failed to find any bodies not because of the damn humidity but because there aren't any. He also blames that asshole Melton for the lack of funding. But then these are people that listened to the asshole in the first damn place. They are not smart. Debra Tate was at the ranch with the dogs- either she thought she might get to eat one or she was snorkeling for truffles. What a crock of shit!

And he loves that MOST EVIL show wherein the senile psychologist believes the lies of Gypsy Share.

Bleeech! Excuse me.

Here is an interview with a cop with too much time of his hands. He cites Ed Sanders, the same unreliable hippie loon who used asshole Melton as a source for his books. THAT'S good cop work!

Then he goes on to explain why a dog with the name BUSTER might have smelled a 500 year old Indian grave. Public Funds being wasted as I type.

Here he says " I spoke to a source who interviewed Manson around year 2000. Manson had a handler who is another inmate, who is a "jailhouse lawyer."" - and a friend of a friend of mine can fly without a plane.

There is no way to tell without digging if they are Native Americans, old prospectors, Manson Family Victims, or if the dogs made a mistake. Or just wishful lunacy.

BUT The BUG is very supportive. And he loves Latin Music Cds.

Debra Tate would like funding for the dogs. And a dozen large pizzas.

Cyber Detective Mark Turner has helped.???

BLECCH.... excuse me.

What did Mark do again? Ask Barbara Hoyt to make up more fucking bullshit lies?

Grave Sites? or maybe just a nice place to piss?

Somebody else
talks about toilet paper and mob hits.

So what is the big news? Mark spent most of 2007 feeding Babs Hoyt and Debra Tate truffles and took fifteen cars and dogs out to Barker Ranch and found nothing.? White Rabbitt Mach 2.

To repeat the big announcement using their own useless words as they wonder about bullshit funding...
There is no way to tell without digging if they are Native Americans, old prospectors, Manson Family Victims, or if the dogs made a mistake.

My big announcement? I chew gum sometimes!

PS- that noise you hear is Bill Nelson rolling in his grave.

88 comments:

FrankM said...

A friend of mine in the UK saw Most Evil last night. His verdict: shallow, nothing new, many inaccuracies and very forgiving of LVH. And the Hoyt an assault on the eyesight, a miserable fraud purporting to be affected by her own lies.

JM: Manson was alleged to have flown the bus by his own mystical powers, not with the help of a Californian freight company.

Monk: I hate run ons too.

AC: I am in favor of scrap yards and yes they are a form of recycling. I’ve left a few vehicles of my own in such places. But surely the difference is that Charles stole cars and he stole engines (I’m sure you know you can drop a VW flat-four in a matter of minutes), reassembling the bits to avoid detection.

I drove buggies when I was young – they have a very low centre of gravity, are very light and enormous fun. Specially when you pump up the tire pressures and take to the dunes. Even more specially when you drop a Porsche engine in.

But I acquired mine legally, whole and used thm for sports purposes. I didn’t mount a bayonet in a scabbard beside me, and I wasn’t building up a whole collection of them waiting for Armageddon.

Frank

Brian Davis said...

"There is no way to tell without digging if they are Native Americans, old prospectors, Manson Family Victims, or if the dogs made a mistake. Or just wishful lunacy."

Wow ! Very interesting. Could be a wild goose chase and a waste OR as highlighted in bold above, they could be on the fringe of solving MURDERS !
Is it worth running the gauntlet for the possibility of solving a couple murders from the late 60's ?

I say HELL YES ! (Sorry, Col)

Interesting interview with the cop:

Q - "Do you have feelings or information about who these victims might include?"

Cop - "I think that there are two stories that fit the best.

First is the girl that Charlie and Tex took for a walk and came back without.

The other is the boy who was backpacking the length of Death Valley and stopped at the Barker Ranch for a few nights and disappeared leaving all his gear behind.

When a family member asked Clem Grogan where the boy was, Clem is reported to have said, "He got homesick".


That's good enough for me to dig.

I do think Debra Tate needs to stay out of it. Sorry but it really isn't any of her business.

The best part about this, to me, is if they find victims there is possibility of new trials as murder has no statute of limitations in Cali.
I know I am wayyyyyyy ahead of myself, but, if they do find evidence for new trials and somehow connect Manson and convict him there too.
And since the death penalty is now active in Cali and may have been at the time of the possible murders, then it may be death for Mr. Manson and others.
And Manson won't care, he's been dead for years, according to him.

Clem, you are one lucky S.O.B !

FrankM said...

A first year philosophy student can explain his logical syllogisms.

Er, excuse me, Col, but where are the syllogisms? And do you want the student to refute them or explain them?

OK, you got mighty angry there, but I don't see in principle why there might not be dead bodies out there. And I don't see any harm in looking as long as I'm not paying for it.

But please, keep Debra Tate and that beached whale Hoyt out of it - they both put me off my dinner.

[Just to show that we do challenge Col when we feel like it]

Frank

techie123 said...

The cop says he thinks Nelson might have been duped by Melton and he thinks Melton is a fraud. I thought everybody, except a few people at that yahoo group I won't name, knew Melton was a fraud. The Col has been telling people that for years. There might be bodies out there. There might be bodies in my back yard. Hopefully the ones of you who live in California won't have to foot the bill for this.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Now, now, Colonel, sit back and drink some nice peppermint tea, have a ginger cookie, both will settle the stomach.

I bet I know who that "jailhouse lawyer" is, and I bet that Deadwood does, too! (Pause for a moment, as that word "handler" is just BEGGING for a crude, juvenile play on words... and when I tell him, he's gonna bust a vein!)

Okay, so the sixty million dollar question is: If the local sheriff's department suspected a murder vic was buried beneath the hardpan, no matter how old, why didn't they order an exhumation? If there was sufficient evidence, they likely would've found the funding and ordered a forensic team to bust out the shovels. Yet they likely fear digging up some Native burial mound, and getting their a$$es sued into oblivion by the BIA. Because rumor, innuendo, and conjecture does not constitute reliable evidence.

Frank said: (continuing the argument from a previous post) "But surely the difference is that Charles stole cars and he stole engines (I’m sure you know you can drop a VW flat-four in a matter of minutes), reassembling the bits to avoid detection."

Frank, you wound me, law-abiding citizen that I am. And Armageddon has been postponed until further notice.

FrankM said...

Come on, AC, you're not that easily wounded.

Isn't it a matter of record that Manson and those close to him were involved in the theft of vehicles and vehicle parts? Lived off stolen credit cards? Scavenged, panhandled, and ripped off what they could when and where they could?

Or does this come as news to you?

And Armageddon may well be round the corner for all of us if Pakistan gets a particular election result. Forget guns and sharp swords in the hands of young children - it'll be WOMD in the hands of trained bin Laden terrorists, and make TLB seem like a Chimpanzee's tea party.

Have a nice day

Frank

ColScott said...

People can always disagree with me. I never have said they couldn't. I would only get upset if someone took a bullshit opinion without evidence to support it- and even then I wouldn't boot you. Only one person ever got booted and that was because she took it upon herself to make a posting.

As far as anything else goes- they are no bodies there. These idiots are listening to Hoyt and Tate and Turner. They will never find a damn thing because it don't exist. These people BOASTED of their crimes and didn't cover them up well.

"Kay" said...

BrianDavis says:
"And since the death penalty is now active in Cali and may have been at the time of the possible murders, then it may be death for Mr. Manson and others."


In all due respect, Brian...As slow as it takes TPTB to carry out a death sentence, Manson would die in prison before an execution would be carried out.

IMO, since Manson and the rest of them were sentenced to death originally, that is what should have happened after the DP was reinstated in California.

Kay

agnostic monk said...

hey if the Col isn't gonna kick off a Kasabian sympathizer, who WOULD he kick off? This monk feels like living proof that blog posters are not lock steppers and don't have to be.

So anyway, Frank, don't most of the convicted killers admit that they lived off a combination of theft and the kindness of strangers? Even LVH admits that, along with Family members, she creepy-crawled her own father's house.

Are we to believe that Manson, a career criminal who knew the ins-and-outs of robbery, etc. had no part in and no knowledge of these thefts? I would sooner believe he actually did reattach Clem's severed manhood.

Your post reminded me of riding buggies over the dunes of the oregon coast, some of the most fun I've ever had. But like you, we didn't steal them.

And I wanna take Buster home with me!

Heaven said...

KAY!!!

Welcome to the blog girl!! It's great to have you here!

=)

agnostic monk said...

welcome Kay, and while we might get occasionally bitchy with each other, we don't throw things, lol. Good point about Manson and the DP, but I wonder about the others, like Tex, Bruce, and maybe even Susan and Pat. If (of course a gigantic "if") any of them could be found guilty of newly discovered murders, they are probably young enough for the DP to apply. But they most likely would just plead out for a lesser sentence since they know they aren't going anywhere. All hypothetical, of course, since this digging could simply lead to nothing.

"Kay" said...

Heaven...

Thank you so much. I'm feeling my way around slowly. Don't want to mess up twice in one day. lol

Monk...

Thank you for the welcome and it's good to know I'm safe from flying objects. :)

You wrote:

"Good point about Manson and the DP, but I wonder about the others, like Tex, Bruce, and maybe even Susan and Pat. If (of course a gigantic "if") any of them could be found guilty of newly discovered murders, they are probably young enough for the DP to apply. But they most likely would just plead out for a lesser sentence since they know they aren't going anywhere. All hypothetical, of course, since this digging could simply lead to nothing."

I don't recall the ages of Tex & Bruce off the top of my head but I know Susan and Pat are at least 60 or pretty close to it. Do you really think our judicial system would carry out the DP in a timely manner? Nope... Even if sentenced to death again, they'd be good for at least 10 - 20 years to continue to breath.

Personally, I think it would be a waste of time and tax payers money. Between the expense for the digging, the use of the dogs and the cost of another trial, what would be the point? I don't think any of them will ever be paroled as it stands right now.

I hope I live to see the day when they're all ready for their dirt nap. :(

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Beating the horse once again: Stealing credit cards and borrowing car parts is not equal to capital murder.

I'd like to welcome Kay! Dunno if you saw my peals of laughter over your previous post. Although I profoundly disagree with some of your statements.

Tex, Bruce and Sadie dropping the cap... sure. Katie and Leslie gaining parole. Charles -- 75% of time served. Enough is enough.

Regarding the current post: Since I'm the proud owner of a failed "sniffy dog" (oh, the irony, a drug dog residing at le Manse de Aldag) I've been giving this issue some thought. She brings me bones from cows who inhabited the farm that was on this property 35 years ago. So howcome the elite cadaver dogs, who are trained to find graves which are 100 years old, weren't leaping up and down, baying their heads off, if they really truly sounded on something?

Darn, Colonel, all that sucking up for nothing. We are chagrinned. Oh well. You rock anyway.

"Kay" said...

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...


"I'd like to welcome Kay! Dunno if you saw my peals of laughter over your previous post. Although I profoundly disagree with some of your statements."

Thank you again for the welcome. I did respond to your other message previously. Would you care to expound on what you profoundly disagree with?

"Tex, Bruce and Sadie dropping the cap... sure. Katie and Leslie gaining parole. Charles -- 75% of time served. Enough is enough."

I don't want to misread your message here, AC. Am I understanding this correctly that you feel the above have served sufficient time for the vicious and brutal murders of 8+ people and one completely innocent child who never even had a chance to live?

"She brings me bones from cows who inhabited the farm that was on this property 35 years ago. So howcome the elite cadaver dogs, who are trained to find graves which are 100 years old, weren't leaping up and down, baying their heads off, if they really truly sounded on something?"

I was wondering the same thing. If the dogs really found something, why isn't the place staked off right now and a digging party out there hard at work? There was a lot in that story that doesn't gel for me.

techie123 said...

Kay and AC I agree about the dogs. If they are so sure about the location why not dig it up on their own. If, and that's a great big if, the stories are true, the graves were dug by two or three people with shovels. Get some inmates from the county jail out there and let them start digging. If they find one piece of human remains, stop and call in the pros.
The second part to this is if they find something out there who do they blame it on? Are you going to be able to pinpoint that the person died before the ones in prison were arrested?
Do they even have names for the people they think might be buried there? All I read was a guy with a backpack and a girl who didn't fit in.

FrankM said...

Do they even have names for the people they think might be buried there? All I read was a guy with a backpack and a girl who didn't fit in

I don't know, but if you go by all those cold case/forensic shows on late night cable they can probably find out - dental records, scraps of clothing, maybe even personal effects.

To an extent I like Col's idea - that they were so untogether and talkative about the ones they did kill that it is unlikely that there would be other hidden murders.

But I wonder. It is suggested that 'surely Sadie, Katie, Lulu etc. would have known' [about other deaths]. i think a lot was kept quiet even among long-term members of the ranch(es). Remember how long Kitty took to find out what was happening with Bobbie? Shorty was not exactly despatched in public, and the circumstances were certainly not widely known - most everyome believed in the dismemberment and decapitation.

As to why they don't just dig: maybe they can't. Because they might be tribal issues - a sensitive issue for the Timbisha/Shoshone? Because if you suspect a body you may need a a coroner's court order or exhumation order ? I'm guessing here, but they're educated guesses (he blushes).

But I do think that if they seriously believe there may be victims they will proceed - police records tend to stay open, and this was not exactly a routine case.

Time will tell.

Frank

ColScott said...

that's right- IF somebody responsible (like someone who doesn't listen to stupid Mark) thought there were victims there they would be digging already not pleading for funding.

agnostic monk said...

Did anyone watch Most Evil last night? It had it's interesting moments, but also had plenty of flaws.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

I don't watch that kind of stuff, Agnostic... it gives me heartburn.

Kay: Charles was never there at any of the murder scenes, never murdered anyone; there is no hard evidence linking him to any crime, only conflicting testimony... He freely admits to accessory after the fact. Thus, he was thrown down for conspiracy, which apparently = capital murder in CA. 35+ years for conspiracy to commit or accessory after is just plain ridiculous.

Frank wrote: "It is suggested that 'surely Sadie, Katie, Lulu etc. would have known' [about other deaths]. i think a lot was kept quiet even among long-term members of the ranch(es)."

Yeah, kinda blows the conspiracy theory all to heck, doesn't it? One blown dope deal: Bobby; two loose cannons: Bruce and Tex; & several foolish girls. One found she had a taste for killing... Sadie. One who'd do whatever she was told: Patty. One who got caught up in the moment: Leslie. If it was a big planned conspiracy, howcome everyone didn't know everything? Howcome testimony didn't match, or changed, or was downright wrong... the allegation of beheading & dismemberment, for example?

Oh Great and Mighty Colonel: What happened to the briefly posted message about Mr. Bugliosi? Noticed it for a minute last night, was gonna give it a proper perusal today... and poof, it's gone. Copyright issues? DARN it!

agnostic monk said...

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...
>>>>Yeah, kinda blows the conspiracy theory all to heck, doesn't it?

actually, not really. the charge of conspiracy doesn't necessarily require that all members of the conspiracy know all the specifics or even most of them. they don't even need to know each other's full identities. there is quite a bit of legal leeway when it comes to conspiracy charges and convictions whether it's about murder or not. one can argue the merits of the law itself, however.

the key question comes down to whether or not charles manson had a conversation with tex watson, prior to the cielo murders, wherein some details of the plan were discussed and/or advice or guidance was given. I am inclined (though I try to "incline" with a mind open to alternative possibilities) to believe that such a conversation did take place. As far as the next night, it's pretty much a done deal and quite obvious, IMHO.

happy weekend to all!!!!

jm30 said...

AC: I asked you yesterday what your "position on Charlie" was. Touche. I shouldn't have played into the sophomoric play on words. I should have asked whether or not you are sympathetic to Charlie, the whole Family vibe, etc.

Okay..at your invitation, I went back to October 2007 and looked over your first-ever posts here. You told me I would get my answers there. To be totally honest, I cannot tell what the hell you are saying most of the time. I am not trying to be offensive, believe me.

I am a blunt person. I like blunt statements that don't beat around bushes. That's why I became a reader of this blog. I find the Col a breath of fresh air among the stuffed shirts I see on TV talking about this shit.

When I post to say that Charlie was a first class HUSTLER using environmentalism as his latest lure to snare insecure and vulnerable pukes like Sadie Mae, Babs Hoyt, and Horseface VanHouten, it would be fun to engage in direct, and civil, discussions that do not force me to read between lines or decipher posts that are six months old.

If I come off as being in a bad mood, well, I am. Long week with little sleep. And the students are really pissing me off at this point, even though it's early in the semester.

Now, back to the show.

FrankM said...

Horseface VanHouten ??

Nah, for me she was quite pretty. Even today she's, what's that condesending expression, 'well preserved'. Well she's my age - maybe that has something to do with it!!

Maybe the odd photo catches her in a bad light? Or maybe you DID have a bad week, JM!!

If so .. please don't take it out on your students as well as on AC and LVH. AC can handle herself with her Smith and Wesson arsenal, LVH is in chokey but your students are in your tutelage, and they are vulnerable. [Or get another job?]

Light a joint, chill a while and lighten up for Monday.

Frank

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Agnostic: It seems that Mr. Bugliosi's definition of conspiracy is "inhabiting the same plat of real estate for a period of months".

JM 30: No offense right back atcha, but I thought it was darnwell *blantantly obvious* that I support Charles Manson! He is my messianic mystagogue#, and I am his Ace in the Hole. Geez. Am I under oath, or something, when one must compose a suitable reply in words of one syllable, slowly, in deference to the court clerk's reptillian typing speed?

Sadie and Leslie were never really scions of the environmental movement. Leslie was the Frenchman's groupie. And Sadie was, well, anybody's. Their colours would've been bubblegum pink and rustoleum primer grey, respectively.

JM further wrote: "...Charlie was a first class HUSTLER using environmentalism as his latest lure" Yeah, that's the way to pick up pretty young middle-class girls... reckon music and motorcycles aren't quite incentive enough, so lecturing them about American Culture drowning in its own pollution will make them hot. Okay, okay, so the hustle worked on ME... But I've never before been accused of being "vulnerable" nor "insecure". Usually it's "egotistical", "meglomaniacal", and that one word that starts with B and rhymes with stitch...

Hey Frank, you've given me yet another brilliant idea! The Manson Family Synchronized Dance Troupe isn't going so well, because it's difficult to clog to "The Center of Our Minds"; sooo, how'bout the Manson Family Target Shooting Range !? There might be a wee licensure problem, an even greater insurance issue... but whatd'ya think? Come along if you care, come along if you dare!

#Mystagogue: How's THAT for a great five-dollar vocabulary? http://wordsmith.org

FrankM said...

[JM talking about AC}

To be totally honest, I cannot tell what the hell you are saying most of the time.

I hadn't imagined myself springing to AC's defense - and I disageee with most everything she posts - but I do have to say that I think she writes very elegantly.

What's not to understand, JM? Or do you limit your reading to Wheatie packets while pissing in them?

AC is a free spirit and writes like one. You're coming on like Mr Jones in Dylan's song ("Something is happening here and you don't know what it is ..")

Try being a tad more understanding, a tad more tolerant, a tad more creative. Or at least roll a joint (another joint, even) and chill.

AC: just keep on doing your own inimitable stuff.

Frank

FrankM said...

Hey, AC - maybe this was the mystagogue you were looking for


Frank

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

That was precious, Frank. I tried to read it to the Sniffy, but she was far more interested in the joint you keep offering to JM 30.

Hey, maybe Buster needs his own blog. "Today i went to this old decrepit ranch. My policeman got very excited when i sounded on that dead gopher. Ms. Tate would not share any of her food with me. Don't tell her that i licked all the salt off the pretzels. When Mr. Melton wasn't looking, i took a dump in his sleeping bag. Then i humped Ms. Hoyt's leg, and she said it reminded her of the old days with the bike club. Didn't actually find any cadavers, but i got my picture in the newspaper anyway. Because i am a GOOD dog."

Brian Davis said...

Hello All ! Hope everyone is good !

AC: Did all the players involved in the murders have to be in on the real motive for it to be a conspiracy ?

I like the way the Agnostic Monk put it, "the key question comes down to whether or not charles manson had a conversation with tex watson, prior to the cielo murders, wherein some details of the plan were discussed and/or advice or guidance was given.

I too believe such conversation took place.
If so, then GUILTY as charged.

Did Manson get a fair trial ? No, I don't think he did. But I do believe he is guilty of conspiracy as defined by California state law.

Also, AC, in reference to Shorty Shea you said in part, "...most everyone believed in the dismemberment and decapitation."

Correct me where I am wrong anyone, sincerely, wasnt it Charlie Manson himself that started that dismemberment and deacap thing to begin with ?

Further, if anyone other than Charlie killed Shorty, wouldnt they be able to say "No, Shorty was not dismembered"?

Who actually did kill Shorty Shea ?

I realize Clem went down for it and maybe rightfully so, but, who actually killed Shea ?

When Clem led the authorities to the body, did Clem already inform them the body was intact ? Or was Clem as surprised as everyone else ?

During one of the trials or hearings, didn't Charlie admit to one of the lawyers that he killed Shorty and cut him in pieces and decapped him ?

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Mr. Davis: I believe it was the other Mr. Davis who was the perpetrator of the Shea murder. Clem likely manned the shovel. Charles M. stating that Shea was chopped into itsy bitsy pieces was very likely sarcasm, along the lines of "If I started killing people, you'd all be dead". The real killer would've known that Shea was still in one piece.

I define a conspiracy as clearly delineating duties and expectations related to the perpetration of a crime... "Ted, you shoot the victim. Sally, you dispose of the body. Lisa, you steal the money. Raul, you tell the cops we are all at your house playing poker. I'll be the mastermind." THAT'S a conspiracy. Not:

Charles W.: "I'm fixing to go shake down the good people who live at Melcher's old place. Can I please have some gas money?"

jm30 said...

OK gang....I re-read everything after a good night's rest. I do not possess any illegal substances, so sleep and some relaxing liquor helped.

Wow, I seemed a little nasty. My apologies.

Now...back to the show.

P.S.: Will never get another job. I like this one that affords me 4 months a year off!

Pristash said...

Unfortunately for you, AC, the law defines conspiracy a bit differently. If only you had been one of our founding fathers (sexist, I know). or you could always try to get on the Supreme Court!

FrankM said...

Sleep and relaxing liquor sounds good, unless it's Senokot or Milk of Magnesia. But glad you're back with us, JM

AC: dealing dope to Sniffy is probably going to get you in trouble with the Canine Defense League, not to mention a waste of a good stash.

And now I want to know more about Ted, Sally, Lisa and Raul … sounds like a movie with Natalie Wood. What the World ...Needs Now .... Is Love Sweet Love

I'd better go

Frank

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Frank: That's it! Buster found a roach that someone dropped into the sagebrush, forty years ago.

Pristash: Five minutes after Armageddon, the Supreme Court will be abolished. Start your watch.

JM 30: It helps if you stand on your head, cross your eyes and then read it. After drinking some absinthe.

Looking up the legal definition of "conspiracy". Now, the CDCR has secret rules written in invisible ink in the back of the Title 15 book, which are applicable just to Manson... perhaps the criminal code does as well?

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

And here it is...

California Penal Code

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=99819928086+1+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

182. (a) If two or more persons conspire:
(1) To commit any crime.
5) To commit any act injurious to the public health, to public
morals, or to pervert or obstruct justice, or the due administration
of the laws.

They are punishable as follows:

When they conspire to commit any other felony, they shall be
punishable in the same manner and to the same extent as is provided
for the punishment of that felony. If the felony is one for which different punishments are prescribed for different degrees, the jury or court which finds the defendant guilty thereof shall determine the degree of the felony the defendant conspired to commit. If the degree is not so determined, the punishment for conspiracy to commit the felony shall be that prescribed for the lesser degree, except in the case of conspiracy to commit murder, in which case the punishment shall be that prescribed for murder in the first degree.
If the felony is conspiracy to commit two or more felonies which
have different punishments and the commission of those felonies
constitute but one offense of conspiracy, the penalty shall be that prescribed for the felony which has the greater maximum term.

184. No agreement amounts to a conspiracy, unless some act, beside
such agreement, be done within this state to effect the object
thereof, by one or more of the parties to such agreement and the
trial of cases of conspiracy may be had in any county in which any
such act be done.

***

You'll notice that it never exactly defines just what a conspiracy is. Talking about a murder? Theorizing that one may take place? Having knowledge after the fact? Offering your car to someone who commits murder?

Why, oh why, wasn't the incompetent nincompoop public defender all over that?

Marliese said...

Brian Davis said...

Also, AC, in reference to Shorty Shea you said in part, "...most everyone believed in the dismemberment and decapitation."

Correct me where I am wrong anyone, sincerely, wasnt it Charlie Manson himself that started that dismemberment and deacap thing to begin with ?

Who actually did kill Shorty Shea ?

When Clem led the authorities to the body, did Clem already inform them the body was intact ? Or was Clem as surprised as everyone else ?



Hi Brian,

In his parole hearing, Clem says he was in the backseat of a car driven by Shorty. Tex was also in the car. Tex had earlier given Clem a pipe or wrench and told him when he signaled to hit Shorty from behind. Tex told Shorty to pull over because he wanted to check on something off the road, Tex got out, gave the signal, Clem hit Shorty, Shorty either fell or tried to get out of the passenger side of the car, Clem leaned over the seat and stopped the still running car.

Clem says when he got out of the car, Shorty was on the ground and that he may have been stabbed or sliced and CM was there with Bruce...said he doesn't know or recall how CM and Bruce got there...Clem says he was handed a knife and told to stab Shorty, Clem said he stabbed him twice in the heart.

You're correct about CM starting the story about Shorty being cut in pieces...Clem said CM told everyone to say Shorty had been cut up because that's what happens to snitches. So he knew the body was intact.

At least that's what Clem said in his parole hearing. :)

agnostic monk said...

AC (and I'm saying this rather good-naturedly, not attacking), the state of california is not interested in how you define conspiracy. If charles manson had a conversation with tex prior to the killings, suggested a house to hit, and suggested or instructed that he make sure all occupants are dead, that is a conspiracy. Roles do not have to be clearly delineated. And the next night is quite obvious. Driving around, looking for victims and houses, dropping off two already admitted killers at a residence. Everyone in that car tells basically the same story. I don't buy for a second that they're all lying and only Charlie is telling the truth.

It seems you are willing to go to the outer reaches of space to distance manson from these crimes and from the perpetrators. It's not that easy. Gas money? I'm waiting for you to start suggesting that manson had never even met anyone on the murder squad.

This reminds me a little of Susan Atkins. At each parole hearing, her involvement seems to get more and more diminished (by her). I think by her next hearing she'll be claiming that she never entered the Tate house and spent the entire time in the car listening to the radio with Linda (I borrowed that from someone else on here, I think).

jm30 said...

AM: I'm totally with you as far as some of the reaches AC seems to take. I don't get the motivation. Charlie has already admitted most of this stuff in interviews off and on through the years. "Leave something witchy..."

The LaB night is especially obvious. Go in, tie them up, and pretend that those naive kids weren't really supposed to do THAT!!" Get real.

AC: How did your sympathies originate? Seriously. If given the choice, which color would you have wanted in the "rainbow"? What's driving your devotion? I am curious to hear from a bonafide acolyte.

FrankM said...

JM

No wish to cast doubts on your erudition but I should have thought 'acolyte' was the last word to use to describe AC, self-declared 'pagan priestess' that she is :-)

Or do you too think that Charlie was Jesus Christ?

Personally, I think Charlie was perfectly able to be in two places at the same time, while being in neither. Looked at that way it all makes sense.

Frank

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

We seem to be conviently ignoring all the interviews and testimony wherin Charles proclaimed that he never killed anyone, aren't we?

Agnostic: The great State of California might be interested in how a competent attorney with a substantial legal defense fund at his disposal describes "conspiracy", especially when it becomes a First Amendment issue and thusly, a point of law. Hundreds of people have gone down for this badly-delineated "crime", while actual perps cop a plea and walk. Making it retroactive is the tricky part.

JM: Devotion? Acolyte? (rude nasal noise) Do I have to kiss a ring, what? Sorry, but that sounds like something out of a press release to a 1970's-era supermarket tabloid. I'm for ATWA because I'm fond of breathing.

Frank wrote: "Personally, I think Charlie was perfectly able to be in two places at the same time, while being in neither. Looked at that way it all makes sense."

According to Clem, reliable witness that he is, Charles was able to teleport to a crime scene, and then teleport the body back to the ranch for burial. Were any blood samples found in said car? And boyfriend can't tell the difference between a pipe and a wrench?

Brian Davis said...

Marliese,

Hello ! Thanks for shedding some light on that !

FrankM said...

Hey AC, here's a query for you.

Most of the lyrics of Charlie's songs are on the Internet (see for example Lie at http://leeaaron.tripod.com/manson-lyrics.html).

If Charlie was really so into ATWA and all that environmental stuff, wouldn't you expect some of his songs to reflect that?

Go on, have a look? I can't find anything remotely environmental - except maybe Garbage Dump:

You could feed the world with my garbage dump
That sums it up in one big lump


Well, maybe not one of his best songs.

What you think, AC?

Frank

Marliese said...

A.C. Fisher Aldag said... According to Clem, reliable witness that he is, Charles was able to teleport to a crime scene, and then teleport the body back to the ranch for burial. Were any blood samples found in said car? And boyfriend can't tell the difference between a pipe and a wrench



What teleporting? They were only a few winding turns in the road away from the ranch. Across the creek behind the ranch. It wasn't miles away. No need to teleport Shorty's body. He was buried down the canyon not far from where he was murdered. That's where he was found anyway.

I apologize for being vague about about pipe or wrench or pipe wrench ~ read the transcript several months ago. Point being he admitted to hitting him from behind in the car and stabbing him twice in the chest outside of the car. Would there necessarily have been blood in the car from the hit from behind?

My question is by the time Shorty was down off the road, was it CM that handed Clem the knife and told him to stab him...

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Re: The music. Frank wrote: "If Charlie was really so into ATWA and all that environmental stuff, wouldn't you expect some of his songs to reflect that?"

Well, y'know how in most conventional western literature, the plot always shakes down to man versus man, man vs. his environment, man vs. "the system", man vs. himself... ??

Take a look at those song lyrics again. Give 'em a serious listen (and realize that Charles has recorded several more albums besides _Lie_, which contrary to Lee Aaron's website, wasn't performed by him at all; also, there were several errors in the lyrics which I noticed... anyway). Listen to the music. Listen to the lyrics. Some of the songs reflect the usual western literary plot... man versus. Yet most of Charles's music exemplifies man in relationship *to* or *with*... Man in conjunction with. Man relative to man, to nature, to himself. Man and his relationship to cosmology. Thematically, it's very Eastern or Native American, for the most part.

Okay, there's a few twangs and trains and prison laments of country / blues, and a few of the love-songs and parties typical of rock'n roll. But most of the music is about exploring ones intrinsic worlds, and the relationship to the extrinsic realms.

"'You could feed the world with my garbage dump
'That sums it up in one big lump

"Well, maybe not one of his best songs.

"What you think, AC?"

I think neither of us should quit our day jobs, because _Rolling Stone_ has quite enough music critics on staff already. x:-)

FrankM said...

Sorry, AC, but I think we've not been reading the same lyrics or listening to the same music.

You say:

most of Charles's music exemplifies man in relationship *to* or *with*... Man in conjunction with. Man relative to man, to nature, to himself. Man and his relationship to cosmology.

I'm tempted to ask for examples, although other blog members may not thank me …

Thematically, it's very Eastern or Native American, for the most part.

This Manson gets around. A while back you had him born a Maddawg (Maddox) and immersed in all things Celtic: a shaman, a dream-talker, a spirit-traveler, in Cymraeg a Gwyddon.

Now he's all wrapped up in either Eastern or Native American myticism. I have to wonder how long it'll take you to link him to Neferkaptah and the Book of Thoth? [But please don't feel obliged].

Frank


[BTW, and just FYI, I have long worked in journalism, albeit not for RS. Before that I was a teacher so I've done a JM in reverse].

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

And don't forget those Buddhist and Scientologist influences. Pretty good for a guy who purportedly can't read.

Sometime I will bore you to tears with the Celtic / Vedic connection... Kali / Morrighu, Herne / Pashnupati, Danu the Celtic Earth Goddess / Danu the Hindu River Goddess.

techie123 said...

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

We seem to be conviently ignoring all the interviews and testimony wherin Charles proclaimed that he never killed anyone, aren't we?

Actually AC we thought that was some of the Manson sarcasm you keep referring to.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Here's the sarcasm (for those of you ignoring the Super Bowl, as am I):

"I've never killed anybody. If I started killing people, you'd all be dead!"

Heaven said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
techie123 said...

AC
That was a little sarcasm on my part in case you couldn't tell. I am watching the game but being from the Southern US, I don't have a dog in the fight as they say.

Heaven
I agree with you. Both Manson and TJ thought Crowe was dead.

agnostic monk said...

"Celtic / Vedic connection... Kali / Morrighu, Herne / Pashnupati, Danu the Celtic Earth Goddess / Danu the Hindu River Goddess."

all those subjects are pretty interesting on their own, but manson's connection to them, not so much IMO.

Personally, while many Family members seem to lack credibility with respect to their stories, I find manson to be one of the least believable. His story changes more than anyone else's.

"Did you go back to the Tate house after the murders?" "Yes." "No." "Were you involved with english satanic groups in topanga canyon?" "Yes." "No." "Yes." "No." "Yes." "No."......

He seems to enjoy being vague to keep people guessing, which is all fine and good, prisoners need hobbies to pass the time, but then folks can't be blamed for viewing EVERYTHING he says with doubt and suspicion.

angeLos said...

Hello "kay" and the new ones, welcome

About CM and the ATWA , it's like in 1969 he was interested in having instant sex and try to be recognised as a musician by the establishment and the world, for the preservation of nature, wich is of course an important issue, CM could not cared less and he would haved chopped all the trees in the world and drive forever the dunes boogies with his troops and show the world how to take care of the chaos had he just had a shot at music stardom.

Then after the murders , in jail and so on , and after no more "drugs" etc...they and he realised the mistakes and the emptyness of their lives and goals, they tried to make people aware of a more altruistic endavor and by doing so making something more worthwhile of their long lifes behind bars...-----> ATWA(R)...it is allright but please don't say thoses crimes were a message of awareness for the world against pollution...

For the NY song dedicated to the "Family" Revolution Blues, here are the last words, and Neil Young says one thing, and I think he is right ...they hate them worse than lepers ...etc...they were just jealous...the motive behind those murders is the worst one ...jealousy...probably, and you can hear the interviews, the Geraldo one for instance , CM seems to be the nicest dude in the world, he explain it all, he did not know STP was living there, it is all TW fault...etc he did not kill anyone...the problem is to trust him, I certainly would not...but who cares right ?
....
....
Well, I'm a barrel of laughs,
with my carbine on
I keep 'em hoppin',
till my ammunition's gone.
But I'm still not happy,
I feel like
there's something wrong.
I got the revolution blues,
I see bloody fountains,
And ten million dune buggies
comin' down the mountains.
Well, I hear that Laurel Canyon
is full of famous stars,
But I hate them worse than lepers
and I'll kill them
in their cars.

FrankM said...

If you guys want to see Buster in action, check out this at YouTube, courtesy of Bret.

Frank

Marliese said...

techie123 said...

Heaven
I agree with you. Both Manson and TJ thought Crowe was dead.


Yes he did, and didn't he also believe Crowe was connected to the panthers?

techie123 said...

FrankM said...
If you guys want to see Buster in action, check out this at YouTube, courtesy of Bret.

Frank

Bret also has a post about this on his website. He seems to have a little different take on this than Mark did. I do believe Brett is skeptical. LOL

FrankM said...

Forget the bodies, there could be tons of stuff buried there. Didn't Manson have a penchant for stashing stuff - gas, motor parts, food supplies - maybe dope even -all waiting for Judgment Day?

Think I read that somewhere. Maybe Buster and his canine cronies need retraining to sniff out other kinds of buried treasure?

Frank

agnostic monk said...

forget the bodies, find the weed!

; )

jm30 said...

Frank said: TW, and just FYI, I have long worked in journalism, albeit not for RS. Before that I was a teacher so I've done a JM in reverse]."

Now, that's funny. I only did a JM because I had to. You can't make any decent money in broadcast journalism.

Back to ATWA. Really, I am not trying to pick on you, AC. But, again, you point to ATWA as the reason you admire and support CM. Aren't there any environmentalists who are not insane cult leaders that you could channel that support to instead?

I like to breathe, too. But, that doesn't mean I am going to condone Sandy Good and Susan Murphy in sending death threats to CEO's. Likewise, I am not going to defend another historical environmentalist, the Unabomber.

To be honest, this forum has been the first and only place I have ever seen Charlie held in high esteem as a savior of the planet.

You mentioned that his environmental rants would not be a good pickup line for the young girls of Spahn. To the contrary, what I meant is that it was just another part of the "hipness" package he was selling. A con man like Charlie would have turned into an advocate of strip mining if that meant he could have gotten laid quicker.

Manson may not have committed any murders that we know of...or at least the Barker Ranch follies have found...and I will go along for a moment with the hyper-elastic stretch that he was unsure ahead of time of what carnage would take place on Cielo...but come on, only a complete Charlie apologist can overlook/excuse his August 10th behavior. He tied them up for God's sake. For what purpose?

Leave something witchy.....

He sure did.

agnostic monk said...

this forum has been the first and only place I have ever seen Charlie held in high esteem as a savior of the planet.

Hi Jim, oh man dig around a little online. there are plenty of manson devotees out there.

BTW, I thought your unibomber analogy was apt.

You mentioned that his environmental rants would not be a good pickup line for the young girls of Spahn. To the contrary, what I meant is that it was just another part of the "hipness" package he was selling.

And the proof, as they say, is in the pudding, aint it? No one can argue that those pickup lines weren't exceedingly effective.

jm30 said...

Agnostic: I've seen a lot of that ATWA/Charlie-worship out there. What I should have said, this is the first time I have had it articulated directly to me.

Pristash said...

Regarding the Barker Ranch cadaver dog thing: I think that anything that can generate some interest into this case is helpful in the search for truth. Some young, untainted investigative journalist willing to look with jaundiced eye on the official take on the case just may come along as a result. One can only hope.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

"Aren't there any environmentalists who are not insane cult leaders that you could channel that support to instead?" asked JM30.

"Would that be Al Gore?" asks Davey, reading over my shoulder. (You deserve a back rub, dear.)

More song lyrics: "The eagle flies into the sky, never ask why." That nature-oriented enough for ya, Frank? :-)

For AngeLos: I'm not saying that the *murders* were about ATWA... where did you get that notion? Framing Charles for murders committed by his associates was a method for "the establishment" to suppress the budding environmental movement. How many newspapers and magazines did Mr. Hearst sell, as a result of covering the trial? Let's see, Hearst bought up acres of forest cheaply, built paper mills, then hacked down the trees to make paper. Then Hearst helped outlaw marijuana, thus hemp was no longer used for making paper. Hmm, do we see a connection here?

Re: Neil Young... Yet more lyrics: "Hope Neil Young will remember, a Southern Man don't need him around anyhow!"

Pristash: When the dogs dig up a forty-years old gopher corpse, I am gonna laugh SO hard.

Standing wager: If and when the cadaver dog team ever gets the funding to dig at Barker Ranch, I bet anyone here they are not going to find any murder victims buried anywhere on the property. If I lose, I will pay $50 cash to the victims' restitution fund of the State of California. If you lose, you must put $50 on Charles's commissary book. Any takers?

deadwoodhbo said...

FrankM said...
Hey AC, here's a query for you.

Most of the lyrics of Charlie's songs are on the Internet (see for example Lie at http://leeaaron.tripod.com/manson-lyrics.html).

If Charlie was really so into ATWA and all that environmental stuff, wouldn't you expect some of his songs to reflect that?

Go on, have a look? I can't find anything remotely environmental - except maybe Garbage Dump:

You could feed the world with my garbage dump
That sums it up in one big lump

Well, maybe not one of his best songs.

What you think, AC?

Frank Charlie is into ATWA 100% he has not eatern meat for more than 20 years ,He loves animals hates humans .Why should he have to sing about ATWA to prove his point?some of your posts are real anoying

deadwoodhbo said...

jm30 said... Back to ATWA. Really, I am not trying to pick on you, AC. But, again, you point to ATWA as the reason you admire and support CM. Aren't there any environmentalists who are not insane cult leaders that you could channel that support to instead?

jm Charlie is not insane but he sure did a good job makeing you think he was and is,for his real true friends who see the real him like AC they understand what i mean he is smart and loveing when he choose's to be,why should he show his real self to people like you ?.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Hi Becca!

There's something you and your man need to know about, please contact me off list.

deadwoodhbo said...

jm30 said To be honest, this forum has been the first and only place I have ever seen Charlie held in high esteem as a savior of the planet.
NOP there is only one savior and thats my homeboy Jesus not charles manson .right back to work peace all.

angeLos said...

AC said

For AngeLos: I'm not saying that the *murders* were about ATWA... where did you get that notion?

It is not here in this blog, but in words LF said in a interview on YT, I do not recall her exact words...I'll have to recheck...

FrankM said...

Frank Charlie is into ATWA 100% he has not eatern meat for more than 20 years ,He loves animals hates humans .Why should he have to sing about ATWA to prove his point?

As I remember, we were discussing CM's relationship to all things environmental back in the 1968-71 period - before the 'ATWA movement' started. My point was simply that his songs at this time did not show any commitment to or awareness of environmental issues, unlike, say, those of the Seeger family or Joni Mitchell.

I also don't think he was any great shakes as a lyricist, but that's just MHO.

some of your posts are real anoying

Welcome to democracy - would you rather live under a delusional autocrat who wouldn't let you think for yourself, so that you and his other 'constituents' became mindless, cloned slaves.

Live and let live, Becca - the joys of a blog are that people of widely differing views can express them. And that surely has to be better than world in which everyone toes the party line or live in fear of the consequences.

Frank

agnostic monk said...

"The eagle flies into the sky, never ask why."

I always liked that song. Charlie wrote some good ones.

Frank you're posts aren't annoying, I'm glad you're here. Becca's just being sassy, lol (winking at Becca).

AC I believe Sandra Good has said in interviews that the murders were, in part, related to ATWA (which wasn't ATWA at the time, though).

angeLos said...

jm30 said

He tied them up for God's sake. For what purpose?

CM did that in order to help his *friends* for what was comming, that is the torture and stabbing of a defensless couple.
The reason...?
Probably CM wanted LLB to pay for their meeting the year before when LLB was *rude* to him...

Pristash said...

And now some news from the outside world:

Maharishi Yogi is dead...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/06/world/asia/06maharishi-1.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Frank: Using the Seegers as an example -- "If I Had a Hammer" is not about the environment, either. Charles hasn't published many songs about making love; does that mean the subject wasn't fully explored in other ways? (pun intented) As for the lyrical merits of "Garbage Dump"... every artist had an off day. Even The Who, who were responsible for the excreble "Athena".

AngeLos: Charles was not there.

Agnostic: Quote, please?

JM 30: The entire "acolyte - devotee - savior - worship" vocabulary was a construct of the prosecution to establish that Charles had some sort of mental / emotional power over those individuals who perpetrated murder. The newspapers and television saw their opportunity and pounced. You have succumbed to the hustle of Hearst, the mind control of print media. It's apparent that I must return to my original "slavish cult follower" sarcasm, cuz you apparently missed it for the first couple of weeks.

"You better stop eatin' that flesh, woman, you're killing those animals..."
"Yup. I'll get right on that"
"That meat is bad for you, the chemicals in the ground get into the animals, then you eat 'em, the chemicals get into you!"
"Sure, yeah, uh-huh"
"You wouldn't eat your dog, would you?"
"Well, if I got hungry enough..."

(Now, if he told me that eating meat would make me as fat as Barbara Hoyt; guess it's all in the presentation.)

And speaking of dogs... Isn't anyone taking my bet? No bodies buried at Barker.

Brian Davis said...

AC, I'll take your bet just because I'm never afraid of losing and I just might win.

They may or may not be Family victims but I think it is within reason based on a cadavar dog that there may be remains and worth the digging.

Now I am still sketchy on the law..is it a native american burial ground there ? I admit I've only read the article twice. Feel free to help me out here.

If it is a burial ground then I guess all bets are off as no digging would nor probably should take place.

Also AC, just curious, do you think Charles went back to the Tate murder scene ?

Brian Davis said...

Also, does anyone know why the TLB trial did not get a change in venue ?

deadwoodhbo said...

I just wanted everyone to know what a awesome person AC is.She is best friends with charlie and cares very much.Thank you AC for all you have done for me in the past becca.

deadwoodhbo said...

FrankM said... Welcome to democracy - would you rather live under a delusional autocrat who wouldn't let you think for yourself, so that you and his other 'constituents' became mindless, cloned slaves.
Frank do you pay income tax?car insurance? gas and electric bills? internet hook up monthly fees.I think correct me if i am wrong are we not all mindles cloned slaves following the rules the goverment makes or are we all liveing under our own individal rules.
see Monk knows i am be sassy ,you take this blog way to serious

agnostic monk said...

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

that Charles had some sort of mental / emotional power over those individuals who perpetrated murder.

He did. Maybe "power" is too esoteric a word. Significant "Influence" might fit better. But I do agree that the media exaggerated it.

Agnostic: Quote, please?

I'll see if I can dig it up, I don't have everything filed in my brain. But I'm pretty sure she has said as much in interviews such as the Bertice Berry tv show and the radio interview she did in 1994. Not that I actually believe Sandra knows what she is talking about when it comes to the murders. I think she mostly has bent the purpose of the murders to fit her own agenda.

And speaking of dogs... Isn't anyone taking my bet? No bodies buried at Barker.

No bet here. Who the hell knows what's buried under there or not.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Okay, Brian, gotta modify the bet, if it's ancient Native American remains, no dice, if it's a 40-year-old cadaver, I'm paying the victims' fund, but if there's nada, then Charles is gonna have a really good day in the canteen!

And no, I don't think he went anywhere near the Tate crime scene. Supposedly he wiped away fingerprints... but there were fingerprints and footprints found.

Becca: Thank you! :-)

Brian Davis said...

Ok AC, you got a bet !

agnostic monk said...

Supposedly he wiped away fingerprints... but there were fingerprints and footprints found.

something like 1 or 2 fingerprints and 1 footprint found in or near the house (not counting those that were unidentifiable or could be matched to Cielo residents).

That's about 3 prints. 3 sloppy killers running around the house, in a fairly substantial struggle with the victims that lasted about 15-30 minutes or so. No gloves worn. Blood everywhere - weren't both pat and susan barefoot? - and only 3 prints?

and none on Steven's car? seems like *someone* went back and wiped things down fairly well, traipsing around the blood and human carnage. someone who had experience. hmmmm....

FrankM said...

I don't want to rehash all the old posts but doesn't the blood evidence make it quite clear that the bodies were moved after initial congealing of blood pools?

Quote from the first Homicide report (referring to SMT)

There was dried blood smeared over the entire body. It appeared to investigating officers that someone had handled the victim, as in moving her from one location to another and the blood from the stab wounds had been smeared over other parts of the body

Hasn't (don't have the source to hand) Manson himself said he returned to the crime scene, with 1 or 2 others, to "see what his children had done". Didn't he claim to have moved bodies, wiped surfaces of fingerprints (not very well obviously) and left just before daylight.

I think i also read that CM wanted to ‘bloody it up’ a bit, – and Sharon’s body had been ‘smeared’ over with blood that apparently did not all come from her wounds. Also to confuse things - hence the glasses.

Enough - it's all been said a million times.

Sorry - can't remember where I read all this - it may be BS, but I've read it lots of times.

Frank

Marliese said...

agnostic monk said...
A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Agnostic: Quote, please?

I'll see if I can dig it up, I don't have everything filed in my brain. But I'm pretty sure she has said as much in interviews such as the Bertice Berry tv show and the radio interview she did in 1994.


Hi Agnostic,

You said earlier that you believed SG has said the murders were in part due to air, trees, water etc...

In Sandra Good's 1990 call to Court TV, she says the murders were committed to get 'a brother, Bobby Beausoleil, out of prison and because they were young people that saw the need for social change and they were willing to go to war to make the changes to save the air, trees, water etc. and so they were all responsible etc.
Could that be one of the interviews where you heard her talk about atwa?

Also, there's another interview where she says it was a revolution and death happens in a revolution etc.

agnostic monk said...

You know what Frank, not to quibble but I don't think it's possible to bring it up too much, especially when people are praising Manson and downgrading his role in the murders.

As far as his admission of going to the Tate scene, Emmons quotes him as confirming that he went to Cielo, felt no compassion or remorse for the victims and was only worried about possible links to Spahn as well as making it look like a Panther thing. After doing damage control, he "lost the heart" to bloody up the scene. Now, we all know Emmons is at best a paraphrase of Manson's own words.

Paul Fitzgerald told Ed Sanders during the trial that Manson admitted to going back that night. I believe that is where the "my children" quote comes from.

But in subsequent interviews, I believe Manson has denied going back (yes. no. yes. no.) I cannot recall if it was brought up in the Diane Sawyer interview.

agnostic monk said...

thank you marliese, yes that is one of the interviews I had been thinking about, in addition to Bertice Berry and the radio program. It's hard to keep them all straight in one's head, lol.

The radio interview was WGR in Buffalo NY on August 30, 1990 which can be found on Turner's site. In that interview, Sandra deals out a laundry list of reasons for the murders, which she says "evolved out of our desire to change the system," Among these reasons, she says "they [the killers] wanted to stop pollution," and "the Tate and LaBianca houses were sort of a portent of where the country was going if we don't stop pollution and if we don't start showing our children models of real morality."

So, AC, there's your quote. Sandra's always been totally on board with the killings. She says Sharon Tate's baby died for ATWA.

(p.s. I must reiterate once again that I don't really think Sandra knows what she is talking about when it comes to the murders. She might be right to some degree, but her statements are more about her than anything else.)

Brian Davis said...

Agnostic Monk said, "...but I don't think it's possible to bring it up too much..."

Thanks for saying that Monk because being a novice on this case I will probably bring up things many times over that most of you have read, heard or discussed a million times.

So, I apologize in advance and thank you all for understanding.

And as always, Thanks Col !

Brian Davis said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Brian Davis said...

Sorry for the delete...my previous comment posted twice.

Marliese said...

agnostic monk said...

The radio interview was WGR in Buffalo NY on August 30, 1990 which can be found on Turner's site.
(p.s. I must reiterate once again that I don't really think Sandra knows what she is talking about when it comes to the murders. She might be right to some degree, but her statements are more about her than anything else.)



Thank you, Agnostic. Will look for that interview on Turner's site. Your mention of WGR tv was startling to me, happily so though. Having grown up on an island in the middle of the Niagara River, I have warm regards for Western NY's WGR...

Agree with you about SG...she doesn't know what she's talking about re the murders and it's more about herself.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Frank: I can envision a large young man who played football, and a strapping healthy girl who put up hay during teenage summers, actually muscling the bodies around. Not a small-statured guy who couldn't lift a Harley engine by himself.

Agnostic: If one wipes down surfaces of fingerprints, one does not leave smears or partials... or so I am told. And if one is wallowing in blood, wouldn't one leave ones own DNA behind?

Why would there be fingerprints on Mr. Parent's car? Wasn't he shot through the window?

I am informed that Mr. Emmons did more than paraphrase. He outright fabricated. Or in more rich and vivacious terminology, "A pack of F-ing lies!"

Marliese: I've heard that Court TV interview, it's the one where the commentator keeps calling her "Susan". It seemed that Sandra stated that the motivation for the killings was "helping out a brother", but when asked if she condoned the murders, Sandra made the remark about the revolution. Similar commentary appears on the old, archived ATWA website. Of course, I am encapsulating. A bit of a jump to say that the murders were committed for Alleviating Technological Warfare Anarchy. I believe the "we're all responsible" comment means that every American citizen is responsible for murder, but that is my interpretation.

Brian Davis: You realize that this investigation might take so long, they will be collecting the wager money from our estates!

agnostic monk said...

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Not a small-statured guy who couldn't lift a Harley engine by himself.

No one is suggesting he went back to Tate by himself.

one does not leave smears or partials... or so I am told. And if one is wallowing in blood, wouldn't one leave ones own DNA behind?

I'm no CSI, but it is my understanding that wiping down prints can and often does leave smudges and partials. Also, DNA would have been irrelevant as they didn't have the DNA technology we have now.

Why would there be fingerprints on Mr. Parent's car? Wasn't he shot through the window?

Yes, and then they pushed the car back several feet, without wearing any gloves, which would likely leave quite a few prints.

A bit of a jump to say that the murders were committed for Alleviating Technological Warfare Anarchy.

But that is exactly what SG has said, on several occasions. It's not a jump if you've followed enough of her interviews and statements. It's pretty much undeniable.