Wednesday, April 21, 2010

What Did Bruce Know and When Did He Know It?














In the comments one of our esteemed regulars pointed out that Bruce might be the last to know what really happened with some of the more prominent events. That got me wondering what he might actually, really know.

Before we posit, we need to reflect upon what his relationship was with Charlie. If Watkins was the puppy dog, and Watson the pit bull, that makes Bobby the rival and Bruce the confidant and right hand, with Clem the court jester.

Bruce, when his actions can be tracked at all, is always at Charlie's right hand.

He arrives with Charlie at Hinman for the ear lopping.
He is right there in the fray with Shea.
He is convicted in both.
Upon Charlie's orders, he vanishes in the sewers.
Upon Charlie's orders, he gives himself up, never to be a free man again.

So we know he's close. If there was an actual NUMBER TWO then that would be Brucie.

So what does Bruce know, for sure?

--> How Hinman went down, and why. I mean what were they talking about in the 35 minute drive over there?
--> Who else was involve in the Shea Murder and cleanup (Gypsy?)?
--> Who killed Doreen Gaul? (I think he did)
--> What happened and why at Cielo (I believe he went there hours later with Charlie)
--> Why was LaBianca targeted? ( He knew True )

Any one of these answers would change the study of this case forever.

So yes, I would love to see Bruce answer them.

But he won't.

And therefore he should not be freed. Which I don't think he will be anyway. Bobby has only half the murder convictions that Bruce has and he's stuck too.

22 comments:

St. Circumstance said...

Questions for the ages. I think you hit it right on Col. I love the analogy about Charlies posse as well.

Marliese said...

Does anyone have any news over the years about Nancy Pitman?

~Marliese

Pristash said...

Yeah, but the rest of the world doesn't care what all else he knows...Clem probably knows more too, and he's out there someplace already. I bet he walks.

St. Circumstance said...

Well the rest of the world may not care what he knows- but if its the truth about TLB- I care :)

Pristash said...

Me too...but so far it seems no one is listening. You'd think that some young intrepid real life investigative journalist would take something like this on...

Someone should try to get a guy like Dave Cullen interested...he wrote COLUMBINE, which is the single best work on that subject.

St. Circumstance said...

Well.. Maybe that is where the host from Manson Family today has been lately lol Out there chasing Clem to get us the truth....

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Dear Bruce Davis:

Isn't it true that you were the "criminal mastermind" of the so-called family, not Charlie?

Weren't you a relatively big-time drug dealer and involved with a large-ish bike club, as well as a mid-level organized crime group? Weren't you their "enforcer"? Didn't you kill a bunch of other people, too; murders for which you never got busted? What was the motivation? All them folks couldn't possibly have owed your people money.

Here's my theory: You were too creepy to attract many young women, so you used Charles and his amusing patter to bring in the girls.

You were too cocky to get along with many young men, so you handed out dope like it was candy, and ingratiated yourself with the powerful.

Then you got really out of control, started to enjoy killing just for the pleasure of the deed, not as a simple business arrangement any longer. Your people realized that you were going off the reservation, and cut your sorry a$$ loose.

Toward the end, you seemed to be getting a bit psychotic. Maybe it was the drugs. You became awfully sloppy with subsequent crimes. Not to mention your escape then surrender -- likely when the buzz finally wore off. What the heck were you thinking, dude?

And now you're getting out of prison. That Christian schtick really worked for you. At least you don't lay all the blame for your behavior at Charles's doorstep. Which is grand -- he is still under the impression that you are his friend.

My advice for when you parole: Fade into the woodwork, as did Mr. Grogan. The Feds are waiting, and the statute of limitations has yet to run out.

Pristash said...

Ah, AC, good points! But the parole board obviously doesn't see him the same way you or I or the even the Col does...

St. Circumstance said...

Some of the points were good, but anyone who thinks Bruce was the leader over Charlie has been looking at different information than me all of these years. He was creepy, and definitely knows more than he lets on- but lets not give him too much credit. He was a little older and smarter than the others ( outside of Charlie) but he was just as much a wannabe as Tex, Clem, T.J. and the others... .

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

In an interview, Robert BeauSoleil says that he influenced Charles Manson, not the other way around.

Andromeda74 said...

I bow to thee, AC. Great post !

St. Circumstance said...

I know the Col is a Bobby fan, but lets be honest- he changed his story at least thee times by his own admission of his crime, and he still to this day has a very glorified view of himself. But do you really think that Bobby, or Bruce had more influence over that group than Charlie? how many of them sat vigil at bobby trial? how many of them lied and basically volunteered for the death penalty to get bobby off? For charlie these people gave up there possessions, they gave up there life's, They sold out and ripped off there own families for him, they followed him back and forth to the dessert with no food, and very little clothes in terrible climates, and ultimately some will die in prison for Charlie. He was alot older than Bobby, and alot wiser to the ways of the world. After reading and studying this " family" for twenty years I am only completely sure of one thing- Charlie was the leader of this pack.

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

Asked St. Circumstance: "how many of them sat vigil at bobby trial? how many of them lied and basically volunteered for the death penalty to get bobby off?"

Um, didn't those guys write on the walls of two murder sites to copycat Bobby's crime? That's awfully intense loyalty, there.

St. Circumstance said...

With all due respect- because your entitled to your opinion A.C. and I respect it - They wrote on the walls because your boy Charlie told them too, and I think he wanted it done more for overall affect than it was for anything to do with Bobby. Even if it was a small side benefit- I find it really hard to believe you honestly think either he or Bruce were in control? Even if Charlie's importance is overrated- it was still the driving factor behind everything they did as a group...

Marliese said...

If Bruce was the criminal mastermind, enforcer for organized crime and loved killing...did he sub it out to Tex for two nights?

A.C. Fisher Aldag said...

So the functionally illiterate guy said, "Write 'political piggy' on the wall"? Cuz at the time, Charles could barely read and write.

Tex's initiation was a major fail. Needless to say, he did not gain his patch. Or even a rocker.

Bruce may have been responsible for other crimes. But we'll never know, because he wasn't as sloppy as Tex.

Marliese said...

Literacy wasn't necessary. Do you also deny his charisma?

St. Circumstance said...

A.C. that is a great point about Political Piggy! I never thought about that, and only can offer either it was a common militant phrase of the time used often
( Charlie was quite fond of repeating terms he overheard)or that maybe you are right in that Bobby could have generated it in that one case. But Marliese is right, and Charlie had all the cards- age, charisma, street smarts. Bruce was much more discreet than Tex, and Bruce did the best job of imitating Charlie- and probably acted the most like Charlie in his absence. However- only one person had the power to say who did what- who went where- and who stayed and who didn't- That person Was Charlie!! Bobby came and went at his own accord- and you can convince me possibly he was independent of Charlie, but Bruce was just as under his spell as the rest of them, and when Bobby chose to be around he fell in line as well. when things got to the point where Bobby didn't dig them- he split- and Bruce took of a couple of times as well. If either one of them were the " leader" they would have had things there way, and that never was the case in one single instance. Can anyone shoe me one printed item anywhere that reports anyone in the family ever telling of one instance where Bruce, or Bobby gave charlie an order, or made any rules? I fee like you think too much emphasis is put on Charlie A.C. and I agree there. Tex was the sickest puppie in this clan- no doubt. I dont think Charlie had it in him to stab 5 people. That is a very personal kill that requires a certain makeup in a person. Charlies one major attempt at murder was with a gun ( crowe) not as personal, and doesn't require as much guts.But it all started from a degenerating living scene that was created, enabled and ruled over by Chuckie. That is why he always will get all the credit.

Marliese said...

Amazing and interesting comments, St. Circumstance. Your posts are such a good read, I've learned a lot from your ideas...such as 'personal kill'. Is that why he left Waverly? He knew Tex had butchered five people the night before, he had to have known he would kill again.

~Marliese

St. Circumstance said...

That exactly why he left. It is also why in most accounts you read about all the other people he DIDNT kill driving around that night. According to the accounts in HS and The Family- he was going to go into a house , but " saw a pic of kids" - was " going to go into a church", but it was locked. He " pulled up the a car", but the light changed. Charlie didn't do much himself- because it takes a certain type of person to kill people slowly like that. It is very gruesome and very slow. Also very graphic and extreme as far as the visuals. You really have to be a certain type of criminal to be able to do that. You can have no value for life at all, and still not have the stomach to kill people in that manner. or in his case even watch. In this regard I can never agree that he is the most dangerous man that ever lived- because he didn't have that raw barbarianism himself. Had he lived in another time and place- say he stayed in Kentucky his whole life- he might have wound up a career serial petty criminal who nobody took seriously. I blame times and circumstances for what went down as much as any special mystical powers he had. He just found a group of people younger, more gullible, and ultimately in some cases with more severe behavioral disorders than he had, and- was able to use them to do things that he envisioned, but was not willing/able to carry out himself.

St. Circumstance said...

P.S. - Thanks Marliese :)

andy said...

i hate to say it but this is why the man you loved to hate, bill nelson is missed. He'd be in there finding some underhanded way of getting to davis. Or at least let the parole boardknow and therefore ask about things that are never mentioned (i.e. the Gaul murder)Nelson was so beyond obsessed and always got something interesting to write about.
Either that or he'd just talk about Davis being the Zodiac killer and be laughed out of the parole room