Sunday, February 11, 2007

Mother is Only Half a Word


Whenever the Col goes off against Linda Kasabian there is always someone who says, "Hey, she testified, she is a hero." Or some such bullshit.

If Kasabian were a hero, she would have woken up on August 9, 1969 and called the police. She would have said "I am trapped with some freaks. They had me drive them to a house last night but I had no idea what was gonna happen. While there, they slaughtered five strangers. Please come to Spahn Ranch and rescue me."

That would have been heroic.

Instead, Linda Kasabian drove to the Tate house on August 8. NOT because she had a valid license- I don't know WHY but that reason is bullshit since Tex drove part of the time. She stood lookout. She watched the slaughter. She went home. She went to sleep. The next night she drove to Los Feliz. She waited outside the LaBianca house. She knew what was happening.

She drove with Charlie and Killer Sadie. She CLAIMS she misdirected them from a planned victim. She claims a lot of things happened that night. The church, the car they pulled next to. Things NO ONE else has ever confirmed or said in books or at trial.

Then she went bacl to the Family. To the people who killed nine people. Hell, how many times did she screw killer Tex afterwards? She claimed that she stayed because of her daughter. That she was such a good mother she didn't want to leave Tanya at risk.

That is what the jury was sold by BUG. It is also a CROCK.

Because of course, Linda Kasabian only gave a crap about herself. ONLY AFTER she was arrested in New Hampshire, having fled there, did she "turn herself in". Oh sure, her attorney purportedly claimed that she was going to testify with or without immunity. But the only reference for that we have is Bug's novel. The book that makes Linda the heroine.

She's arrested and comes to LA and sees that Sadie screwed up her deal and voila, what would you like me to say Bug? That's what the Col believes happened.

Okay, so Linda grabbed a straw, sold out her friends and got a walk as an accomplice to NINE freaking murders. That only makes her smart. And everyone else stupid for letting BUG play them. If I were in that same insane situation, I guess I would do the same. Doesn't mean that you should let me do it though.

Now, this was posted on the news site of Man of the Year Bret:

CLAIMS TO BE LINDA KASABIAN'S 'DAUGTHER'

I was contacted earlier this week by a woman who claims to be looking for her mother. She claims to be the first child of Linda Kasabian. She recently released a book with her life story and can be bought online through Trafford Publishing.

ISBN 1-4120-0110-2.

She claims to have been born before Tanya and that Linda left her with her father who was a big time dope dealer in the 60's and 70's. She claims she was told at age 21 that her real mother is Linda Kasabian and she is now on a journey to find her.

I have never seen any record of Linda having any children before Tanya. Whether she is Kasabian's daughter or just another Rosie Tate Polanski, remains to be seen.

I am always sceptical about these things, especially with this case. In this case there have been many bizarre claims to kinship. In the 70's, there was a woman who claimed she was carrying Manson's child, despite the fact she had never met him. There was also this guy who had an imaginary relationship with Leslie Van Houten. In the 80's, there was a Kevin Taylor who claimed he was engaged to Patricia Krenwinkel. There was the drag queen Julian who said on Current Affair that he was the child of Paul Watkins and Ruth Ann Moorehouse. In the 90's, a woman conned Bill Nelson and others that she was Ruth Ann Moorehouse.

The best of all and most outrageous was Rosie Tate Polanski. She claimed she was the child of Sharon Tate's and she had survived the killings but it was covered up. Oddly, she struck up a friendship with William Garretson, the only survivor of the Tate massacre. Where do these people come from?

For more information on Gina's book, Click Here!

Just for the record; this woman could be telling the truth. I am certainly not calling her a liar.

Wowsa. Do we have more frauds like the crazy Ruth impersonator that Candygramma lunatic coddled last year?


Maybe not- here is a subsequent Bret Post--


CLAIM TO KINSHIP UPDATE

It Turns out that the woman who claims to Kasabian's daughter and wrote the book 'In My Mother's Closet' could be telling the truth. It was actually Vincent Bugliosi who encouraged her to write the book. He did not know where Linda Kasabian is and hasn't seen her since 1971.

In court transcripts, Irving Kanerak asks Linda how many children she has and the question is immediately overruled by Bugliosi and the subject was never brought up again.

For more information on Gina's book, Click Here!

Let's make a note of that last bit shall we? Did BUG know that Linda had other children from her first marriage? He must have. The marriage is confirmed on Shitapedia and on the Manson Girl's Resource site.

Did BUG not want the earlier children brought up because Linda had abandoned them? Left them behind on her narcissistic sixties journey to find Jesus? Because then of course her picture as a great mom is nonsense. And she didn't stay at the ranch to protect Tanya but because she did not think what they did was that big of a deal. Which is my read of it.

But let's go ORDER THE BOOK shall we? (maybe we will get it unlike the Manson2Jesus book)--



here is what it says

IN MY MOTHER'S CLOSET is the story of my life, raised in poverty, a drug dealer's daughter and a possible Charles Manson connection.

My brothers and I were raised by our father after our mother had left to find herself and explore the "Hippie" movement. Meanwhile, our father was exploring his own hippie movement. In the late 60s, he became one of the biggest drug dealers in L.A. county. Then, in the late 70s, we moved to the hills of San Diego county, where we lived in a plywood shack and grew marijuana. He then became a very well known drug dealer again.

At the age of twenty-one, I was told that my mother was Lynda Kasabian of the Charles Manson Murders. I had some memories of her, but they were not good ones. I was often told that my mother was dead or in a mental institution. I was also told that she had a criminal history and that she was a bad person. I knew that she had married another man and had other children.

Since her departure, my life has never been what one would expect. Our mother has lived a separate life with her other childern having no knowledge of us. This was the biggest secret to us and I'm am sure the biggest secret to them. Everything has been hushed up and covered up over the years.

All of what I was told and the way I grew up made finding out about my mother more painful than anyone could ever imagine. But it also made me more curious as to what was really hidden. It's time that someone opens that closet and starts to clean it out. There is a lot to understand.

Okay. She can't spell Linda but that's okay. She seems sincere. She might be real. Like I said earlier, I found the real daughter of Paul Watkins last week- wasn't even looking. I want to read the book and I will report back to you guys. It is self-published so I do not expect much.

But Gina- Linda Kasabian was a lying piece of shit who sold out everything to save her hide.

And what did she do with that hide? As Bill Nelson (Nellie) uncovered in 2000, she continued her life of crime. And the precious children raised by this devoted mother? Tanya and her brother Angel have been in and out of jail all of their lives.

That's the Star Witness the BUG shoved over on history.

Here is the best part of Nellie's report reprinted here-
When I was in New Hampshire, I learned of a strange occurrence involving Kasabian. Responding to a disturbing the peace situation, the officers rolled up on a bazaar scene. There in full view, for anyone to see, was the California State’s star witness. Kasabian had been a shinning example of Bugliosi’s redemptive eyewitness who escaped life in prison for her active participation on the two nights of mayhem and murder. Her hands stretched out over her head, face turned up with mouth open, Kasabian was drinking the blood of a chicken with it's head cut off! Repulsion and disgust was the response of the officers. It all happened in a nearby town known for ill repute and criminal behavior that resulted in the police being called often.



Bug must be so proud.

Dear readers, there are a lot of links in this posting. READ EVERYTHING. You need to learn everything you can about Linda before you criticize my position.

And Gina- here is what Nellie found in 2000-

"Linda Kasabian, aka Linda Chiochios of Tacoma
Sister: Jade Byson of Nashua,
four brothers: Randy Byrd, and Steve Drouin, both of Nashua;
Dennis Byrd of Tacoma;
Wayne Drouin of Washington, D.C.;
J.M. "Jake" Byrd of Milford and Joyce Taylor of Englewood, FL.
Thomas Kenneth Bryd, 34
of 241 Nashua St. Milford, died August 22, 1992
in Nashua Memorial hospital after a lengthy illness. DOB: 2-21-58
Maternal grandparents:
Theodore and Dorothy Taylor of DeLeon Springs, Florida; several nieces and nephews.
Smith & Heald Funeral Home, 63 Elm St. Milford."

If you find her you owe me one- I'd like to interview her just to see if she still even remembers the lies.












Linda Kasabian- Star Bullshitter for the Prosecution.

129 comments:

angeLos said...

The Col said :

If Kasabian were a hero, she would have woken up on August 9, 1969 and called the police. She would have said "I am trapped with some freaks. They had me drive them to a house last night but I had no idea what was gonna happen. While there, they slaughtered five strangers. Please come to Spahn Ranch and rescue me."

or, she could even have run to the near Kott's house yelling to please send the police right away because some "friends" of her were putting to death their neighbours.... but she did not do that...why ?

For someone who only stayed for 2-3 weeks (correct me if I'm wrong) with " the Family" she did not have the time to be " convinced by the CM philosophy"
but she still went the second night ! strange ...

Heaven said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Pristash said...

Mother is only half of the word I'm thinking of when I think of LK...but she really was all VB had, if he could have proved more then we would know the real deal and not just the Helter Skelter BS.

angeLos said...

VB had also TW and PK finger prints at CD and SA hair in the shirts found later...

jempud said...

Come to think of it, when she was at Cielo Drive and the others were committing mayhem she could have quietly slipped away (in or without the car) and brought back the LAPD).

Or maybe she was so doped up that any option seemed as good as another .. and if she was getting good sex and good dope why mess about with the supply?

So, a few peole get offed, who cares - these are cool people, let's just smoke a joint and get balling ...

But then again, I wasn't there

Jem

Pristash said...

Not talking about physical evidence, Angelos, but rather the true motives behind the murders....

Lawyers say that they need to have a story to tell the jury...take them on the journey so they can see what happened and why. VB had plenty of physical evidence against most of the murderers, but not a thing against Manson...who could only be convicted of conspiracy since he wasn't even present while the murders were committed. Motive became a big hang up on VB's case. Since he couldn't prove anything else, hence we have Helter Skelter.

And I've long been fond of saying that if you believe that those seven people were murdered on those two nights because Manson truly thought the Beatles were sending him messages telling him to start a race war, then I'd love to sell you that proverbial swampland in Florida...

Peace!

Heaven said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jempud said...

All that about drinking chicken blood comes up in Emmons’ book

Here’s an extract:

Several weeks before we decided to come south [to LA], I met a lady in Frisco. She was a trippy broad, about forty-five years old, who experimented with everything. When I met her, she was pumped up about devil worship and other satanic activities. I didn’t attend a lot of the places she invited me to, but we often discussed the good and bad sides of different beliefs. As a result of our acquaintance, she had given me a standing invitation to visit her home in Topanga Canyon [LA]. I was in LA waiting for some action on a recording session. We needed a place to park the bus for a while so we went looking for her house. Taking Topanga Canyon Boulevard, we came to a two-story house with a peculiar winding staircase, which one of the girls quickly dubbed the "Spiral Staircase." […]

Normally, I am a person who picks up on vibes. Acquaintances, decisions, the songs I write and the music I play are all reflections of the vibes I feel. Though I was welcomed to the house by hearty hugs, good music, and passionate kisses, I had bad vibes about being there and staying longer. Yet I stayed. And though I would leave in the weeks to come, I would also return.

Each time I returned, I would observe and listen to all of the practices and rituals of the different groups that visited the place. I’m not into sacrificing some animal or drinking its blood to get a better charge out of sex. Nor am I into chaining someone and whipping them to get my kicks like some of those people were. Still, through the drugs and listening to the ways a particular leader or guru maneuvered his people, some of their rap may have become embedded in my subconscious. Planting fear in their people is the way a lot of leaders keep control. At the time, love and doing our own thing was what held us together and that’s the way I wanted everything to be, but at a later date, the things I was exposed to at the Staircase may have come back to me.


Taken from Emmons N (1986), Manson: In His Own Words (pp 122-123)

And what was the Spiral Staircase? Aanother extract from Salvador Astucia's book Rethinking John Lennon’s Assasination:

The Spiral Staircase has all the signs of an intelligence operation, a hippie front for an FBI operation designed to discredit rock. It was probably infested with informants who practiced a Satanic form of witchcraft that, according to Manson, included a high degree of LSD use, free sex, orgies, whipping sexual partners with chains, animal sacrifices and drinking animal blood for sexual gratification.

Apparently sex gets better if you drink animal blood shortly before coupling. What would I know?

All this from http://www.jfkmontreal.com/john_lennon/ contents.htm. Comments?

Jem

Pristash said...

Jempud said: "Apparently sex gets better if you drink animal blood shortly before coupling. What would I know?"

Thankfully I have no idea...except for an occasional piece of rare beef or a steak I suppose...Hmmm, now that I think about it, maybe they were on to something....

Heaven said...

This was just posted on KTS and I thought I'd share...

Linda Kasabian MySpace

I didn't read the whole thing, I just skimmed it cause it's just way too busy.. I highly doubt it's really Linda, but anything's possible...

=)

jempud said...

Heaven dice...

I highly doubt it's really Linda, but anything's possible...

Most of the text comes from http://charliesfamily.tripod.com/linda.html, with a few pronouns changed (e.g. 'she' --> 'I', 'herself' --> 'myself').

And some of the photos are from various manson movies - the courtroom scenes are an actress.

Crazy site - crazy like the chicken blood drinkers. What a day.

Jem

angeLos said...

Yes..., Pristash...the motives...!

HS was, for the young gullible "friends", to give them a reason to give CM their lives...

I never thought CM was as nut as that, no, he was much more perverse ...
...and I guess the only question I would like to be answered is ...did CM knew when he sent TW on CD that STP would be there and pregnant. I think... yes he did , he knew exactly what he was doing......jealousy..... like LLB with whom he had an argument in 1968 ...the worst possible motives...

Peace !

Salem said...

angelos
and I guess the only question I would like to be answered is ...did CM knew when he sent TW on CD that STP would be there and pregnant. I think... yes he did ,

WELL HE DID NOT!

IF LINDA WOULD TELL THE TRUTH OR TEX ... BUT HELL NOOOOOOO
THEY HAVE TO STICK TO THE LIES!
MAYBE THAT FAKE KASABIAN CHILD IS BUGGIES LOVE CHILD AND CAN HE MAKE CASH OFF OF HER.
WHAT A MESS.....

Salem said...

For someone who only stayed for 2-3 weeks (correct me if I'm wrong) with " the Family" she did not have the time to be " convinced by the CM philosophy"
angelos

LK had been in and out of communes. she had been to harold trues and to tates home way before The so called family was there.

jempud said...

Salem dice...

LK had been in and out of communes. she had been to harold trues and to tates home way before The so called family was there.

Dianne

if you are going to tell us things like this it really would be helpful to provide some supporting evidence.

How can you be sure that LK was at Harold True's before?

How can you be sure that she was at Cielo DRive before?

You complain that no one believes you but you have to give us reasons to want to believe you.

A friendly 'please' from

Jem

Pristash said...

Angelos,

Help me out...the argument you refer to with Leno is when they were partying at Harold True's house and he came out and told Manson to quiet down?

Also, do you think Manson wanted Sharon dead because of the confrontation with the photographer the March before?

Please let me know what you're referring to if not these.

Also, it's even Bug's book that Kasabian had been to True's house independent of the Family, is it not?

Salem said...

Also, do you think Manson wanted Sharon dead because of the confrontation with the photographer the March before?

says Pristash

hi
Charlie didnt want Sharon dead.
I dont think even Tex knew who all was in the home, he was there for VF and Abby. The others were just horrible tragic victims of a madman that got burned on a drug deal.

Salem said...

How can you be sure that LK was at Harold True's before?

How can you be sure that she was at Cielo DRive before?

well Jem
everyone is dead and they cant speak, Linda knows but she isnt talking and her ex hubby isnt either, so who does that leave you with. Charlie.
He said LK took THEM to Trues home to party several times.
Its well known LK was a heavy drug user and as for Cielo, she would have to tell you that, I cant. there were alot of origies there at Romans LOVE NEST.
Mama Cass knew, Charlies knows, hopefully you will hear it from HIM soon.
mansonspeaks.com

angeLos said...

Pristash a dit...

Angelos,

Help me out...the argument you refer to with Leno is when they wealtwere partying at Harold True's house and he came out and told Manson to quiet down?

Also, do you think Manson wanted Sharon dead because of the confrontation with the photographer the March before?

Yes I do...perfectly 100%...

those were, of course for me and my understanding of the "Manson mind" and psychology, the 2 persons he resented the most in LA...and who said "no" to him...

The 23 March 1969 he met briefly STP and Hatami was "rude to him" at CD...he probably saw that day the most beautiful woman in the world in the most beautiful place and house(City and State if you ask me...)in the world.... he new right then what in the future could be done to reach ..."stardom" ...as sad as it may be...just wipe out beauty and wealth and not feeling one bit guilty about it...When CM told TW to go to where TM used to live... the stupid TW did not know STP was to be there... well... CM knew it... and he probably hesitaded a fraction of a second thinking how much of a j**k he really was...

Pristash said...

Ok, Angelos...and thank you for elaborating....now for the Million Dollar question....and I won't even lead you, I'll just ask you: What role did William Garrettson play in the events at Cielo Drive?

Heaven said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
angeLos said...

Pristash a dit...

What role did William Garrettson play in the events at Cielo Drive?


WG had the back luck to hitchike in the wrong place at the wrong time...
when Rudy Altobelli picked him up and offered him a job...at CD...

WG probably heard the shots and screams and must have been stoned and scared to death...luckily for him it was not TW who checked the back house... he would have been probably the tenth victim of those two summer nights.

Salem said...

charles Manson did not know who was there that night.

Tex did. He knew who he had to get the money back from or the drugs.

as from *the grave*, will it not be errie to hear Manson talk beyond the grave.
charles didnt kill anyone nor did he order killings. ( he says so himself)

jempud said...

Salem dice


charles didnt kill anyone nor did he order killings. ( he says so himself)

Well, I’ve recently been re-reading Manson: In His Own Words by N. Emmons – which claims to be based on interviews in prison with CM. Guess most of you know it and maybe have read it too.

In this book Manson admits to certain things:

He says he knew the "kids" were going to commit murder at CD in order to get Bobby Beausoleil released from police custody and admits to being guilty of not trying to prevent the murders.

He admits he helped cover up the crime by going back to the crime scene—assisted by an unnamed accomplice—and wiping everyone’s fingerprints.

He admits going inside the LaBiancas’ house, giving the orders to kill them, and leaving before they were murdered.

He says there were all up on LSD at the time – which is hardly a reason for offing anyone.

This is what CM says (more properly, what Emmons says CM says). Told by a con to a con. Guess they have plenty of time for talking ...

What do you guys think of these claims (and for that matter of Emmons’ book)?

Reference
Emmons, Nuel. Manson in His Own Words: The Shocking Confessions of "The Most Dangerous Man Alive." New York: Grove Press, 1986

Jem.

Pristash said...

Ok, now...a couple of things....

Angelos' scenario has Charlie ordering the murders because of anger over how he was treated....interesting...Salem is purporting the Tex and Linda drug burn angle, which I have always thought of as a fairly realistic possibility, although Manson must have been involved somehow as well. What bothers me though is the incredible coincidences that needed to occur for this to work if Manson didn't have anything to do with it as Salem claims: Kasabian partied at Harold True's house, just like Manson, but long before she even met Manson...Tex and Kasabian get burned by drug dealers (Abby and Fry) who just happen to be living in Terry Melcher's old house, where Manson had been to before...

I think Garrettson had to have played some kind of a role...Ed Sander's claimed that Sharon Tate's mother even thought that he was some sort of a lookout who tipped off the killers when to come...he may have thought Sharon wouldn't be there because her car was in the shop, etc.

Salem said...

JEM
What do you guys think of these claims (and for that matter of Emmons’ book)?

its filled with lies. charlie was pissed at nuel some for the things he wrote. CM trusted the dude, and the guy lied.
cm worked on nuels truck for free, and expected the truth to be told, but this time it will be, as you will hear cm talk with his own voice. no translated crap!

Salem said...

BUGGIE HAS HIS LIL MURDERS UNDER A UMBRELLA AND AS LONG AS THEY STAY THERE AND KEEP TO THE STORY HE ( BUGGY) FABRICTAED ALL WILL BE WELL!

WHAT BS!

CM HAS SAID THAT IF THERE WAS ANY HOPE OF THE TRUTH BEING SAID LESLIE MAYBE THE FISRT TO SPIT IT OUT.

Salem said...

He admits he helped cover up the crime by going back to the crime scene—assisted by an unnamed accomplice—and wiping everyone’s fingerprints.

DAMN RIGHT
CM DIDNT WANNA GO BACK TO PRISON!
AND HE WASNT A SNITCH.

Heaven said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Heaven said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jempud said...

Salem dice

CM HAS SAID THAT IF THERE WAS ANY HOPE OF THE TRUTH BEING SAID LESLIE MAYBE THE FISRT TO SPIT IT OUT

And don't you think LVH would have worked out that telling the truth might have been her best strategy to get released.

But as she's in prison, maybe you (Dianne) can tell us what that truth is?

AS for the www.mansonspeaks.com website, tell us something about it. Are you involved? Why is it so quiet? Usually a website which is going to be set up wants promotion, wants people to know about it.

And my final question: how is CM going to speak on it? I can understand that he speaks to you (well I can't understand, but I accept you believe that) but if he's going to speak to us as well (through manson.com) why do we have to wait. He's not getting any younger, and he's not about to be released.

Peace

Jem

Heaven said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Salem said...

And my final question: how is CM going to speak on it? I can understand that he speaks to you (well I can't understand, but I accept you believe that) but if he's going to speak to us as well (through manson.com) why do we have to wait. He's not getting any younger, and he's not about to be released.

Peace

Jem

BECUZ THE SITE IS STILL IN THE WORKS.
NOT MANSON.COM
MANSONSPEAKS.COM
U CANT UNDERSTAND HOW HE SPEAKS . THR COLLECT CALLS AT 40 BUCKS A POP!

Salem said...

AS for the www.mansonspeaks.com website, tell us something about it

ok Heaven

the title speaks for itself:)
peace

Salem said...

as for manson sending TEX
omg
LOL
thats insane. he would ask Bruce before anyone to helphim...Tex was a *uck up!
If manson killed everyone who screamed at him or snubbed him off, there would be alot of dead people.
and no
Labianca wasnt becuz of his rants.
it wasnt cus phil K use to live around there either.
like the other murders it was TEX!

Skyhook said...

Domain Name: MANSONSPEAKS.COM
Registrar: PRIMUS TELCO PTY LTD DBA PRIMUSDOMAIN/PLANETDOMAIN
Whois Server: whois.planetdomain.com
Referral URL: http://www.planetdomain.com
Name Server: NS293.HOSTGATOR.COM
Name Server: NS294.HOSTGATOR.COM
Status: ok
Updated Date: 25-aug-2006
Creation Date: 22-aug-2006
Expiration Date: 22-aug-2007


Domain Name: MANSONSPEAKS.COM
Reseller..............: CheapDomainGroup
Created on............: 23 Aug 2006 05:22:26 EST
Expires on............: 23 Aug 2007 05:22:34 EST
Record last updated on: 23 Aug 2006 05:22:26 EST
Status................: ACTIVE


Owner, Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Billing Contact:
Frip Rafus (ID00263802)
401 King Ave
Corcoran, CA 93212
United States
Phone: +1.8005551212
Email: atwanews@yahoo.com

Heaven said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
angeLos said...

Pristash a dit...


Angelos' scenario has Charlie ordering the murders because of anger over how he was treated....interesting...

Not quite Pristash...I rather say CM had suggested the murders in a perverse way and not of anger of how he was treated, but what he needed the most was to be heard and noticed by the world...stardom, fame,... he found out his goals in life (fame,sex,power, wealth...) could not be reached working, as a musician or else...
...would Miss Smith, even pregnant, have been murdered with her friends, nobody would have talked about CM...

...CM wanted STP to be killed on CD...unfortunately...

... about TW and a possible drug burn ...you do not do what they did for that motive...

Salem said...

CM wanted STP to be killed on CD...unfortunately...

... about TW and a possible drug burn ...you do not do what they did for that motive...


thats ludicrous!!!!!!
CM did not want sharon nor abby or anyone killed.
MY GOD, he was friends with Abby!
when atkins got back that night bragging about her murdering spree, even CM said then,*YOU STUPID BITCH YOU HAVE SENT ME BACK TO PRISON!

Heaven said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ColScott said...

Stop kicking Salem what is the point?

jempud said...

ColScott dice

Stop kicking Salem what is the point?

In the absence of the disambiguating comma, I have to ask whether this is a request to Salem to stop kicking or a request to the rest of us to leave Salem alone.

The latter perhaps seems more likely, but if so I think it's reasonable that Salem at least be given a chance to clarify/expand on what she posts. It would be better if she were a little less parsimonious with her offerings but that's another matter.

Incidentally Skyhook (Captain Morgan?) - the address at 401 King Ave Corcoran, CA 93212 seems to be that of the place where Manson is incarcerated. Dunno who Frip Rafus is though - perhaps Salem can enlighten us?

Jem

Salem said...

Manson drove the car . so what.. Linda drove the car also.
That didnt make CM a killer.
as for who is Frip Rafus /
If you dont know, then you arent meant to know. The so called family knows him.
Thats all that matters.

Skyhook said...

Jempud said: "Incidentally Skyhook (Captain Morgan?) - the address at 401 King Ave Corcoran, CA 93212 seems to be that of the place where Manson is incarcerated."

Yes. Intriguing. That's why I posted it.

Frip Rafus? Doesn't Manson mention "him" in connection with the games Manson used to play with Clem? It's in the Tom Snyder interview I think.

jempud said...

Salem dice

as for who is Frip Rafus /
If you dont know, then you arent meant to know.


Well that's a wonderful philosopy. As a teacher I must remember that one.

Sorry for thinking that the purposes of discussion blogs like this was to exchange ideas and information.

Jem

Salem said...

riff raff rukus was manson!
it was ONE of the games they played.
yes the the site is connected to the prison, how else could HE speak!

Salem said...

I KNOW WHO U ARE JEM
AND DOK ISNT IN CA EITHER.
WHY DONT WE ALL HAVE SOME TRUTH HERE.

jempud said...

Salem dice
I KNOW WHO U ARE JEM

Well, I know who I am, but as for you Salem I very much doubt you even know which continent I'm on.

WHY DONT WE ALL HAVE SOME TRUTH HERE.

Well yes, that would be nice. Remind me - have I ever lied on this blog?

Skyhook: Areithi Cymraeg? Bydew, hychydig ai peidio o gwbl?

Jem

Skyhook said...

Jempud wrote: "Skyhook: Areithi Cymraeg? Bydew, hychydig ai peidio o gwbl?"

Sorry I don't. I'm a foreigner here! ;)

jempud said...

Well, Skyhook, we're all foreigners somewhere. Some of us are foreigners everywhere.

It was a long shot ...

Jem

Skyhook said...

Well Jempud, I understand little and speak even less. Tho' I did get your "Man of the Sea" reference. :)

Salem said...

Col

The book is a rip off.

seems like a 5 year old wrote it. I think this girl is a FAKE!

Salem said...

Hello all
Thanks for your interest in Manson Speaks.
The site is not up yet, we are ironing out a few gliches, but it
should be up soon.
On the site you will be able to download his thoughts and
conversations (for a fee). The money raised from this would be used
for Charles needs (personal, quarterly packages, legal, etc.)
You can preview a conversation from Manson at www.mansonspeaks.com
where he talks about his upcoming parole hearing.
I am in constant contact w/ Charles. If you would like to donate any
monies now before the site is up,please contact Salem and she will
contact me.
For ATWA and Life,
Angel

Dok said...

Salem said...
I KNOW WHO U ARE JEM
AND DOK ISNT IN CA EITHER.
WHY DONT WE ALL HAVE SOME TRUTH HERE.

12:10 PM, February 23, 2007

Youre a complete nut job Salem. What would make you feel so comfortable with knowing me to presume to know my location? You are so far off base I feel bad for you.

Salem said...

cuz u say youre in Ca.I think NY is where u are.

jempud said...

Salem

Why is so important for you to know where people are? Or why they are not where you feel they should be?

This is a discussion blog. Half us us could be on the Moon or Mars. If I choose to move around between Nanaimo, New York or Mexico City - places I frequent fairly regularly - what is it to you?

And if you trace my IP and see I route my mails through my son-in-law's server somewhere else, what is that telling you? That a third party lives somewhere else?

Get a life, Enjoy the posts, and cut the "I know where you live" threats. You don't, and you can't. And you shouldn't.

All you need to know about me is that I'm a white duck with a fancy blue bonnet and I live in Westmoreland (see my pic). And that I have learned to be wary of foxes.

And please don't accuse me of lying.

Quack

Jem

Skyhook said...

Jempud:

I know where you live... but I'm not saying. :-)

I used to live there myself, but in another city.

jempud said...

Skyhook dice

Jempud:

I know where you live... but I'm not saying. :-)


Suddenly everyone seems to know where I live.

Maybe it's time to move to another pond. I've heard there's a quiet spot three-quarters of the way up the south-eastern slopes of Aran Mawddwy.

Then the buccaneer Skyhook can come and visit me in his galleon, a la FitzCarraldo..

But not, I fear, Salem, who has no sea-faring skills.

Quack Quack

Jem

Skyhook said...

Jempud said: I've heard there's a quiet spot three-quarters of the way up the south-eastern slopes of Aran Mawddwy.

Funny you should mention Aran Mawddwy. I have a photo of myself near just such a lake... altho' taken on the northern slopes.

http://www.ecrins.shacknet.nu/b2_belay01_pitch6.jpg

I agree with you though. These "i know where you live" threats are unfriendly. :-(

Salem said...

you all blow thigs out of proportion,
back up , if u scroll up, Jem , you said *nice air in NY.* to Dok.
He replied by called u Heaven.
go figure.
I could give a damn where any of u live, lying is another thing.
no threats here. I DONT GIVE A DAMN!

jempud said...

Salem

I find most of what you say incomprehensible, your last post especially so.

But I do understand you are continuing to accuse me of lying, and this is not a civilised thing to do.

If you seriously believe that I am Heaven (as your last post might be understood to say) a few moments study of our posts (Heaven's and mine) should convince you that we have totally different writing styles. Heaven sticks to English and doesn't quote philosophers, for a start - I have too much of the Dominie in me.

As for your accusations that I am lying (about what, I have no idea), please ratify or rectify.

Peace

Jem

Skyhook said...

Jempud

Now you are being a little irrational!

Given Salem's record do you really expect her to understand your last post?

Philosophers call it, "Induction". ;-)

Salem said...

LOL
HOW QUICK WE FORGET THE POSTS BEFORE.


SO WHERE IS THE PEACE HERE??? THERE IS NONE BECUZ YOU ALL RESORT TO SARCASTIC NAME CALLING.
YOURE LIKE A CAT CHASING HIS TAIL.
YOU WOULD NOT KNOW THE TRUTH IF IT POPPED UP AND SMACKED YOU IN THE DAMN FACE!

Dok said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jempud said...

Salem

I think it might be a good idea if you were to take a break from this blog for a while. It's clearly winding you up and possibly endangering your health.

You have several times said that you were leaving - in your own interests I really think it might be a good idea for you to do so.

Try to relax, not think at all about this blog, Manson, or the other things that are taking over your life. There's so many good, simple things in life - a sunrise, a mountain view, even a cat chasing its tail - and maybe you need to make base with that simplicity and recharge your batteries.

In peace

Jem

Dok said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Skyhook said...

Dok said: You possible need professional help.

She may... and of course she may not. We can't possibly know for sure.

One odd thing about internet forums is that people can can act out some of their fantasies. Some clearly get "into it" more than others.

I don't believe acting out these fantasies is necessarily debilitating and may actually help to sustain the "real" part of ones life.

After all, here is the only place I can be an ugly nasty-looking pirate. Jem is not a blue-bonneted duck and you aren't a rooftop gymnast... at least I think that you probably aren't! :)

jempud said...

skyhook dice

Philosophers call it, "Induction". ;-)

Wasn’t it Hume who said the way many people think depended more on falling into the rut of everyday experience than a deductively valid argument? I believe that bread will sustain me not because I can deductively ‘prove’ it, rather because it always has in the past. (Hume’s ‘practical scepticism’ can’t have made him many friends).

Isn’t induction reaching a conclusion about something that has not been observed on the basis of what has been observed ?

And isn’t what Salem doing reaching a conclusion about something that has not been observed on the basis of what has not been observed either?

Hope your head isn’t spinning with this, but as a mountaineer you should be used to dizzy heights.

And by the way, how can you be sure that I’m not a broody duck in a smart blue poke bonnet? Will you prove it deductively or inductively?

Jem

Skyhook said...

Jempud said:

Isn’t induction reaching a conclusion about something that has not been observed on the basis of what has been observed ?

Yes, that's right.

And isn’t what Salem doing reaching a conclusion about something that has not been observed on the basis of what has not been observed either?

:-) Good one! :-)

Hume; As far as its utility in empirical thought, I think he held inductive reasoning in higher regard than deductive reasoning.

Skyhook said...

Jempud said: And by the way, how can you be sure that I’m not a broody duck in a smart blue poke bonnet? Will you prove it deductively or inductively?

I've seen and heard many, many ducks over many years.

Not one duck argued or even spoke to me.

You are arguing with me.

By induction I conclude that you are not a duck.

Salem said...

you re like pigs to the slaughter.
beleive everything you read.
You are clones of Buggie!
TAKE YOUR POWER BACK by letting him go! You'll feel so much stronger. when you feel stronger - work on developing your self esteem, so you won't be jealous and overprotective next time around. esp of people who do know the truth.

I trusted some of you and helped many of you.. that trust was betrayed, then you may feel jealous,*as Charlie says jealousy is like a snake.* but you also have to realize that they may not care enough to make it work, and let them go. There are other people who will care enough .
and that fits most of you.

Salem said...

"Whenever God Closes One Door He Always Opens Another, Even Though Sometimes......It's Hell in the Hallway"

Col Scott and others....
you know how to reach me.
Savage you were right on about some people here and you are truly a friend.
best of luck to you.
Dianne

Dok said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dok said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jempud said...

Skyhook dice

I've seen and heard many, many ducks over many years.

Not one duck argued or even spoke to me.

You are arguing with me.

By induction I conclude that you are not a duck.

Well, let’s see. All my dabbling in philosophy was a long time ago.

In formal logic an argument is considered valid if – and only if – there is no case such that the premises of the argument can be true and the conclusion false. [Agreed?]

By their nature inductive arguments have an infinite number of conclusions that can reasonably be related to the same set of premises. You can in fact obtain a true statement through inductive reasoning if - and only if - you know the conclusion. [With me?]

If you want - which you do - to make an adequate argument using inductive reasoning then your (known) conclusion must be able to be true if and only if an (unstated) external conclusion is also true, and if and only if that (unstated) external conclusion is built on the first conclusion and independently meets its own truth requirements. [You may want to reread that – I can think of no way of stating it more simply.]

If you then toggle between your known conclusion and your unstated conclusion you can use inductive reasoning to find out what evidence will be required for your unstated conclusion to be true. [If you’re still with me, try it]

If this evidence permits the new conclusion to be true then you have proved your case. But your argument by induction will fall to pieces if your unstated conclusion is false – this of course can only be proved by deductive reasoning. Ergo, pure inductive reasoning can not exist independently ….. Ergo, pure inductive reasoning does not exist ….. Ergo you have no case.

As for your faux syllogism:

No duck has ever argued or spoken to me.


You are arguing with me.


You are not a duck.


It falls flat on its face in the first premise; whereas it may be true of you and your experience with ducks, you are confusing the set of ducks you have met and the set of all ducks. In other words, you are limiting yourself to the experience of the ducks you have met. You have not previously met Jemima, who is a particularly garrulous and quarrelsome specimen.

Not only does it fail as a syllogism (the initial premise would have to read “No duck can speak or argue”), it also fails as an example of inductive reasoning. There may be good reasons why ducks have chosen not to speak or argue with you; they may have decided that good conversation would not have been forthcoming; you may have met the wrong ducks, etc.

And it’s Saturday, and here we are discussing inductive reasoning. On a Manson Blog. About time to open that Rioja, methinks. But maybe not the Foie Gras tonight ..

Regards

Jem

Skyhook said...

Jempud said: It falls flat on its face in the first premise; whereas it may be true of you and your experience with ducks, you are confusing the set of ducks you have met and the set of all ducks. In other words, you are limiting yourself to the experience of the ducks you have met. You have not previously met Jemima, who is a particularly garrulous and quarrelsome specimen.

I am limiting myself (as you say) to my experience!

This is induction.

No duck can speak or argue

This follows from (1) by induction. I confess I should have made this clearer.

There may be good reasons why ducks have chosen not to speak or argue with you;

Conceivable but this is not my experience.

Remember, we are talking about induction.

But maybe not the Foie Gras tonight.

:-) Do they do that at Kentucky Fried Goose

Can you imagine? A Bucket Of Foie Gras?

jempud said...

angeLos dice

... about TW and a possible drug burn ...you do not do what they did for that motive...

I take your point but we're not really talking about 'normal' people here, are we.

It's amazing how impressionable people who live together and share new values, a new 'language', a new life style and a hell of a lot of drugs from what we hear can twist anything into a 'reason', perpeteate any kind of monstruous act ..

Do you not think ..?

Jem

angeLos said...

Yes, I agree Jem and I would be the first extremely surprised and shocked if the case was about a drug burn and CM, a very nice dude, victim of the system (VB)and his "friends", and TW,LK etc... huge liars...

I have read previous messages in this blog from 2005, and the Col seems to understand and know a lot about this case...so maby he can help us a little bit ?

jempud said...

Well the Col is certainly knowledgeable, if a little opinionated - but also I'm sure he's very busy with his business, his travels and servicing the needs of his supermodel wife! (Not dissing you Col, we all love and appreciate you).

Like you, I'd welcome his opinion.

I'd also like the skinny on who went back to CD, why, and what they did there. It's a weird and dangerous thing to do, and I'm sure there's a lot more to that than is generally known.

The blood evidence (like the blood) is all over the place - but one theory is that they (CM and Brenda ? CM and Clem?) intended to hang the bodies in the doorway but found they weren't strong enough and put the bodies (of Sharon and Jay) back where they were.

Also, Jay is said to have died of exsanguination - but where is all the blood? There's much more around Sharon - although I've also heard that the people who went back bloodied up Sharon a bit more, especially around the face and neck.

Col (or anyone else): any views ?

Jem

Salem said...

Sniper Madness


http://snipermadness.blogspot.com/2007/02/col-scotts-blog-sits-ribbits-like-frog.html

jempud said...

Salem dice

Sniper Madness

http://snipermadness.blogspot.com/2007/02/col-scotts-blog-sits-ribbits-like-frog.html


Now that's one blog I want to stay away from.

No point in answering me there, Salem: I've never been there before and I'm unlikely to go back

BTW: internal bleeding is not a consequence of exsanguination, which means 'bleeding out'. My concern is at the complete lack of blood when Jay's body was moved by the forensic team - see the photos of the floor after the bodies have been moved.

Jem

Skyhook said...

Salem said...

Sniper Madness
http://snipermadness.blogspot.com/2007/02/col-scotts-blog-sit



Friend of yours Salem?

jempud said...

I found the pic I was looking for, at http://crimeshots.com/BloodCielo.jpg . (Don't go there if you're especially sensitive).

This is where Jay's body had been lying after the bodies had been removed (at the top right) - see how there is much more blood from Sharon's body (lower down and to the left) than his.

Yet Jay's death certificate says he died of exsanguination. Y, .. ¿donde está la sangre ?.

Jem

Skyhook said...

Jempud said: Yet Jay's death certificate says he died of exsanguination.

Two things that I can think of:

The body was moved. This could have happened after injury and before death or of course after death. ( I would like to know the sources of the story that Manson and another visted Cielo Drive later that night. Is it something that was investigated at the time?)

'Exsanguination' can be used to mean loss of blood internally. (It would be interesting to know how the term was used here.)

Heaven said...

Salem said...
you all blow thigs out of proportion,
back up , if u scroll up, Jem , you said *nice air in NY.* to Dok.
He replied by called u Heaven.
go figure.
I could give a damn where any of u live, lying is another thing.
no threats here. I DONT GIVE A DAMN!

11:57 AM, February 24, 2007


How'd I get dragged into this? LOL

=)

jempud said...

Skyhook

It's mentioned in several places, in particular by Manson himself in the Emmons book. Much is made of the glasses he left behind to create a 'red herring' - probably Mary Brunner's as she had dozens of pairs, mostly broken. One of CM's foibles was he wouldn't let the girls wear glasses (go figure).

It's also said he went to wipe fingerprints - unsuccessfully as it happens - but how would he know where to wipe (I ask).

Maybe he wanted to see if it had been done right - to gloat - to control - to "see what his children had done" - who knows.

See JS's death Certificate at http://www.members.tripod.com/
~VanessaWest/sebringdeathcert.jpg;

In trial VB summed up that "Jay Sebring's cause of death was exsanguination due to multiple stab wounds. The doctor said by exsanguination that Jay Sebring simply bled to death" (see http://www.law.umkc.edu/
faculty/projects/ftrials/manson/
mansonsummation.html, a third of the way down).

Yes, I suppose you can bleed to death internally - I've no experience - but my dictionary says: ex·san·gui·na·tion : the action or process of draining or losing blood

Maybe you as a bloodthirsty cutlass wielding cut throat pirate know better :-)

Did you visit the Sniper Madness Site ? Someone there doesn't seem to like the Col overmuch!

Jem

jempud said...

Heaven

apparently you and me are the same person LOL

Jem

Heaven said...

jempud said...
Heaven

apparently you and me are the same person LOL

Jem

12:40 PM, February 26, 2007


We are? How come no one ever told me? LOL

Skyhook said...

Jempud said: It's mentioned in several places, in particular by Manson himself in the Emmons book.

I haven't read the Emmons book but from what I have read about it I would think that it cannot be considered a reliable source. Even Manson says that it is unreliable.

Did the police have any evidence before the arrests that the scene was disturbed post mortem ?

jempud said...

It's also mentioned in Greg King's book - and hinted at in in VB's 'Helter Skelter'. ED Sanders describes it in detail. Maybe elsewhere - not a new theory by any means

Too much blood in the wrong place, with no clear explanation. Too many discrepancies between the scene as left by Sadie and Tex and as found by the LAPD.

Or so they say - again, I wasn't there

Jem

Skyhook said...

Jempud said: ...hinted at in in VB's 'Helter Skelter'.

I'm very sceptical.

It would be a tremendously risky thing to do and Manson would have known why.

I last read 'Helter Skelter" 24 years ago and one thing that I remember about the book was VB's desperation to find a motive and to link Manson more directly with the murders.

If he had heard more than just rumour (and there must have been hundreds of rumours circulating), would he not have offered some details in his book? I was left unconvinced by his Manson directed the murders argument; wouldn't he have been all too ready to offer something substantive to bolster one of the most important (and weak) arguments in his case against Manson? viz. the 'Helter Skelter' motive ?

Heaven said...

I believe that Manson did go back to Cielo...

There is evidence to support that he did...

Stephanie Schram testified that Manson left their bed in the middle of the night and returned some time after dawn...

Danny DeCarlo testified that he saw Manson and two others leaving in the AM hours...

These two were pretty scared of Manson by the time they were called to testify.. They had nothing to gain by lying...

The neighbors reported loud arguing coming from the Tate property around dawn...

Steven Parents car was so clean of fingerprints that even his own were wiped away... It's very unlikely that with the shots and screams that Tex or the girls took the extra time to wipe the car so clean..

Manson said the eye glasses he left behind were used at the ranch to start fires.. No one thought to steal a book of matches lol

As for it being risky, based on the layout of the property, the view from the roads below and the very late hour, if the crime scene had been discovered, it would have been very easy see without even going up to the house.. Had the police been there, the property would have been lit up like a Christmas tree...

The fact that Manson went back was not a very well guarded secret. Manson was pretty ballsy so I'm not the least bit skeptical that he would indeed go back seeing that the coast was clear... Any activity on the property could be easily seen from the road below..

Just my opinion...

=)

Pristash said...

I agree with Heaven's post...the blood map certainly indicates that the bodies were moved as none of the killers ever said Jay or Sharon were anywhere outside of the living room.

Where, however, is it hinted at in HS that Manson went to CD after the murders?

Deb said...

No, I don't think that the possibility that CM and crew went back to CD is mentioned in HS. In fact, I read somewhere (who knows where) that Bugliosi when asked if he believed that Charlie and some of the others went back to the scene of the crime afterwards, said no.

Hi Dok!

Deb

jempud said...

Well I was the one who said it was hinted in HS - I think maybe I was reading too much into it. It does draw attention to Manson leaving Stephanie and then coming back on the nights of 8 and 9 - and it does suggest the glasses may have been left as a false clue - but I think that's about it.

But VB must have known about the blood maps ?

Jem

Pristash said...

Yes, indeed, of course VB knew about the blood map, but he didn't call attention to anything that didn't fit into what he was able to prove through the physical evidence or direct testimony (I believe that if VB could have proved that a drug burn took place, he would have run with it...makes so much more sense than Helter Skelter...) VB could have persued the notion that the bodies were moved after death, but so what? He didn't have anything to physically place Manson at the scene the night of the murders or anyone's testimony to back it up. The victim's were just as dead, so why bother even bringing it up? The defense attorneys probably didn't bother with it either because it wouldn't mitigate the guilt of their clients anyway.

Pristash said...

...Which now gets me thinking....Kanarek and Hughes are dead...any of the other defense lawyers still alive? Perhaps instead of waiting for VB or Stephen Kay to fess up to the truth one of them may shed some light on what the real deal may have been? Col, can you scarf anybody up?

Skyhook said...

Heaven:

I had no idea of the layout of the Tate house.

Thanks for your reply.

Do you know whether the blood map evidence was brought up at any of the trials? Surely, the defence could have made much of it.

angeLos said...

Pristash a dit...

I agree with Heaven's post...the blood map certainly indicates that the bodies were moved as none of the killers ever said Jay or Sharon were anywhere outside of the living room.

Wasn't there some mistakes by the police about the blood types ?

it does not seem , from the pictures of the crime scene( for example in the ATWA site, who's text is so irrespectfull of the victims, life in general, and of themself, that even CM, I'm sure would be against this text and the people behind this site ) that STP has been moved .
She has been stabed in the heart 3 times then rolled over and stabed 8 times in the back , then rolled on her left side were she still protect her heart with her left fist , and you can see the darker color of the blood on the floor...were the blood was comming from and nobody dared to touch her after her death...probably.

Dok said...

Snipe 100!

Hi to you too Deb!!

catscradle77 said...

Fine Dok---dont say hi to me..meow!!
Glad you are well.

Pristash said...

Damn...I could have sniped at 100 too, but I couldn'e remember the word....and smack probably wouldn't have the same impact...

jempud said...

One thing that bothered me was why (some of) the killers at both places went bare feet. Then I read that syphilis was so rife that some of the girls - especially SA - found it too painful to wear shoes. In fact I think i read somewhere that SA spent a long time in hospital with syphilis (and Dennis Wilson footed the bill).

I don't know a lot about the effects of syphilis but I think it doesn't do the head/brain/mind much good...

I also remember reading somewhere (my mind is addled today) about one of the family (female) called 'Lil feet' - presumably cos she had very small feet - and that she was one of the mop up team. (Salem mentioned this too on another blog recently). But I can't remember if it said who 'Lil feet' was - anyone know?

Dunno what Snipe 100 means either LOL

Love y'all

Jem

angeLos said...

jempud a dit...

Then I read that syphilis was so rife that some of the girls - especially SA - found it too painful to wear shoes. In fact I think i read somewhere that SA spent a long time in hospital with syphilis (and Dennis Wilson footed the bill).

I don't know a lot about the effects of syphilis but I think it doesn't do the head/brain/mind much good...

Actually it was not Syphilis, but the Clap, another name for Gonorrhoea and it does not affect the brain, but must be treated...

Syphilis can affect the brain on it's tertiary stage, yes...like some famous people had it ...
Lénine
Benito Mussolini
Howard Hughes
Al Capone
Vincent Van Gogh

Salem said...

SUSAN DID HAVE THE Syphilis!
ON HER FEET!
: SYPHILIS, TREPONEMA PALLIDUM /
SYPHILIS, SECONDARY Category: cutaneous sign of systemic disease /
infections and infestations /
papulosquamous eruptions
Body Site: foot / sole Age: 13 years
Contributor: Raja Mouallem, MD
Description: symmetric hyperpigmented scaly minimally elevated papules and plaques
Comments: This 13-year-old girl was evaluated for a rash of 3 weeks duration on her face, hands, and feet. She also had smooth topped hyperpigmented papules on the labia majora. Other than the skin rash her physical examination was normal. Screening for sexually transmitted diseases revealed posite HIV titers; a positive RPR with a titer of 1/128, a reactive Treponema pallidum microhemagglutination assay, a positive Human immunodeficiency test, and positive pregnancy test. This patient demonstrates the importance of screening for multiple sexually transmitted diseases in this setting.
Related Images: All related Images syphilis_1_030131 syphilis_2_030131 syphilis_3_030131
http://dermatlas.med.jhmi.edu/derm/result.cfm?Diagnosis=1596362672
HER FEET WERE OOZING SORES!

angeLos said...

Argh....ok, that must hurt then!... :(

Salem said...

most everyone went barefoot on the ranch, the girls shoveled horse crap out of the stables, BAREFOOT!!! yikes! and had several foot diseases. But yes, at one time Susan did have
syph* of the foot.
ewwwwwwwww

jempud said...

Probably true that most 'everyone went barefoot' back then - I for one don't think I wore shoes from 1967 to 1972 'cept when I got a job.

And I got the clap in 69- in Leucadia CA, but not through the feet .. brought back from Vietnam by a GI no doubt.

Did the brown stain test recently (well when I had my first HIV checks) and can state categorically that I never had syphilis.

Thought y'all might like to know

Jem

Skyhook said...

Jempud said: And I got the clap in 69- in Leucadia CA,

This was avian clap no doubt!

jempud said...

Avian clap? More like a standing ovulation …

Actually, who knows .. like young people of the time I was pretty promiscuous around California (San Diego, Carmel, LA, Frisco) over the summer of 69 (that's why I got the clap) and by the principle of six degrees of separation I could well have had a 'connection' with Sexy Sadie ..

Makes you think, doesn't it.

Jem

Dok said...

Hey Cat, you ever get the clap? LOL

catscradle77 said...

ROFLMAO
If you're happy and you know it
Get the clap..

Sorry I couldn't help myself, no disrespect meant...

Still playing twister, Dok? LOL.

angeLos said...

Pristash a dit...

Mother is only half of the word I'm thinking of when I think of LK...but she really was all VB had, if he could have proved more then we would know the real deal and not just the Helter Skelter BS.

Was it real BS this HS...? ...not sure...

LVH, LK, PK... etc thought CM was JC right ?
amaizing how stupid some people really are..! for one thing he used to live 2000 years ago ...
They realized after a few years in jail CM had lied to them and he was not JC...just a selfish megalomaniac interested in his own promotion.
This HS , this racist theory was for the young gullible "friends" a theory they thought possible and they were going to initiate the war... not the general CM of course......damn how dumb some people really are...

And some of you still think CM is some kind of Jesus Christ...?

jempud said...

Never underestimate the power of strong dope. An acid tab a day keeps sanity away. Not to mention social and moral responsibility. These guys did all kinds of dope all the time - including, by admission, before going up to CD.

I myself (and maybe you too) had one or two friends who did too much dope back in the 60s and fried their brains - now they are fit for nothing. One guy I knew then now sits in a chair all day dribbling and dosn't know who he is (and no, it's not Alzheimers).

People like that didn't kill anyone, but who knows if they could have, given sufficient encouragement.

Jem

deadwoodhbo said...

great post thank you Col

jempud said...

It is said – I don’t have the source to hand – that 20th Century mathematician and philosopher Lord Bertrand Russell, a famed disbeliever in the existence of God, was once asked what he would say to God should he (Russell) be wrong and meet Him face to face after death. Russell replied, "I’ll say, you did not give me enough evidence."

Another, better known saying of Russell’s, from his Sceptical Essays (1928), "On the Value of Scepticism", was: “It is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatsoever for supposing it is true”.

This was in my mind this weekend as I wrestled with what we might call the ‘Salem problem’. Well, it’s been a quiet weekend.

Let me first of all say that to the best of my knowledge Salem is a pleasant, diligent and well-meaning person who has come under a lot of flak on this blog and elsewhere, and in this posting I mean her no harm. I am simply interested in knowing why she suffers so much from misunderstanding.

The first aspect of the ‘Salem problem’ is the question of what it is that Salem knows that others do not accept. I have tried to approach this objectively, by reading all her recent posts (at least those under the moniker of ‘Salem’), in this blog and in the last few days on the Sniper Madness blog. The latter does not make pleasant or even educated reading, but then this blog had its dark moments not that long ago …

The quintessence of Salem’s claims seem to be that she has been friendly with some members of the family for many years, is in contact with many of them now and has a good working knowledge of Manson family affairs both now and in the past. She also claims that she speaks regularly with Charles Manson and that she is involved with a gathering of family members and the construction of a website that will shortly go on line as a pay-site that will make available Manson’s messages (contemporary or historic, or both – this is not clear to me) to subscribers in order to raise funds to look after Manson in his old age.

At this stage let us implement the ‘willing suspension of disbelief’ for just a while. Legalities of the venture aside (I am no legal expert), there is in principle nothing in that bundle of claims that could not be absolutely true. So why the almost universal reticence to accept these claims.

This is where we need to hark back to the Russell quotes. There is an onus of proof, or at the least compelling evidence, and the onus is not on the disbeliever to disprove the claims but on the plaintiff to prove them. This, I think is where Salem’s case begins to show cracks.

So, Salem’s case may be true, but it doesn’t convince without evidence. Evidence is essential to thinking man, and the burden of evidence is just as necessary in a blog as in a court of law or a philosophical/scientific debate. But evidence here is in short supply.

A second disadvantage to Salem’s claims is her apparent inability to maintain a measured tone. If you want your audience to accept your arguments you must convince them on the strength of the arguments, not by the strength of your arm or the loudness of your voice, nor by replying to selected points and ignoring others. Salem, however, seems not to be able to maintain the gravitas and moderation of the rational mind, throws tantrums and gets distracted by periphera, and this does little to make her arguments more compelling.

In short, I do not know whether there is truth to what Salem claims or not. I am not able to know. As I frequently say on this blog, I was not there. But I do know that if I am to be convinced I, and I venture other blog members, will need to be convinced by a) some tangible and independently verifiable evidence and b) an argument or reply that doesn’t duck (if you’ll pardon the word, Skyhook) the obvious inaccuracies and inconsistencies that are pointed out to her.

So, Salem, and this is partly addressed to you and partly to all of us, I would like to believe you and would like you to be believed. I think you have had a hard time recently, and I have no reason to doubt your human kindness and good nature. But if you really want to be taken seriously, please do consider how to help others to want to believe you.

Peace

Jem

Skyhook said...

Jempud said: ...the ‘Salem problem’...

Salem is playing a different "game" to us. As I said before I don't think it is necessarily harmful, but it has its own rules (unlike scientific method) and is probably enjoyable and fulfilling for her.

Nearly everyone fantasizes...

jempud said...

Skyhook dice

Nearly everyone fantasizes...

yes, funny how I keep forgetting I'm just a simple duck from Grasmere

Maybe Salem is really an ugly duckling - unaccepted by her peers because she is unwillingly different from them - and will in time grow into a big white Mute Swan (well more realistically a loquacious Swan, I guess), universally loved and universally accepted.

Quack

Jem

Skyhook said...

Jempud said: yes, funny how I keep forgetting I'm just a simple duck from Grasmere

The difference is that you don't care whether anyone else believes you are duck or not...

You are quite sure of your "duckiness" and don't need the confirmation of others. :)

Pristash said...

Jempud said:

...
And I got the clap in 69- in Leucadia CA, but not through the feet .. brought back from Vietnam by a GI no doubt.

Did the brown stain test recently (well when I had my first HIV checks) and can state categorically that I never had syphilis.

Thought y'all might like to know

Jem

Hey, Jem,

I remember you.....

(just kiddin)

jempud said...

Well Pristash, if you're the right age and the right sex and were around Caliornia at that time .. well, maybe we're both in for a shock

Asking someone's name wan't such an issue then ..

Mind you, I think you might have noticed my tail feathers ..

Jem

Salem said...

JEM

ALL THINGS TAKE TIME AND AS I SAID BEFORE, THIS IS A GRASSROOTS OPERATION SITE...MONEY IS STILL BEING GATHERED, AND THERE IS MUCH TECH WORK STILL TO BE DONE AND AS TO HOW TO ASK PEOPLE TO PAY.MAYBE PAYPAL WILL WORK.? STILL WORKING OUT THE KINKS .
I WENT TO AUDIO'S SITE TO EXPLAIN AS THE COL HAS HIS HANDS FUL HERE. AUDIO WAS NICE ENUFF TO LET ME POST THERE. :)
THANKS FOR YOUR KIND WORDS, AS FOR MY POSTS, MOST OF THE TIME I AM IN SUCH A HURRY I GO BACK AND LOOK AT WHAT I'VE POSTED AND SAY WTF??? LOL

YES, THESE 2WEEK S WITH MY MOM AND STEP DAD'S DEATH HAVE BEEN HARD.BUT LIFE GOES ON.
PEACE

Salem said...

Manson’s messages (contemporary or historic, or both – this is not clear to me) to subscribers in order to raise funds to look after Manson in his old age.
says jem

correct. his messages are of today and some things about the past.
all monies will go to him, no one will profit from this site BUT him.
He needs an enhaler, he doesnt have it , as he has emphysema. He has...
another terminal illness also.

Just litle things he would like. A walkman, for instance.

I guess what bothers me the most
is that all these years the state has kept him behind bars and used him as a pawn almost.as in* vote for me, i will make sure this serial kiler never gets out! *
omg how about Rameriz? sp error)
HE'S A KILLER, OR CORONA!
Then at the age of 72 CM gets very ill and WHAM, they tell him, he has a great chance of parole. They dont want to foot his medical bills.
so CM will not be at his parole hearing.
g' nite
me
If I rant at times I am sorry. Im pissed now, Sandy COULD be helping NOW!!!!!!!! but noooooooo
well.no big deal, things will work out.

Salem said...

also
Jem
i am guessing you are my age and thought you and others maybe interested.


http://www.summeroflovefestival.com/mambo/
peace

angeLos said...

jempud a dit...

Never underestimate the power of strong dope. An acid tab a day keeps sanity away...
...
You are probably right Jem, all those drugs had to affect their thinking...

as for LSD since I was 12 years old in 1969 I was too young to get involved with friends and so on with acid and then after it did not interest me, so I can not imagine the effects on the brain...

for marijuana as LVH talks casually on Parole Hearings they used to smoke even the day of the murders and for her it looks like that substance is like no big deal...
not that sure, I smoked on and off for years and stoped 3 years ago and frankly I feel much better whitout it...

And for the friends who fried their brains, hopefully none of my close friends had the bad luck to have exagerated...but I see what you mean when I see zombies like persons getting worse year after year...

Salem said...

for marijuana as LVH talks casually on Parole Hearings they used to smoke even the day of the murders and for her it looks like that substance is like no big deal...


what is the big deal.????
weed is used for Cancer patients.
I think its far out.
But then I was hippie child.

Paulina said...
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Paulina said...
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Gina Judd said...

Bill was pretty easy to befriend.