tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post5695019037893289682..comments2023-11-03T03:18:55.138-07:00Comments on Official Tate-LaBianca Murders Blog: Stupid? Ignorant? Lazy? Or Hiding Something?ColScotthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04198505620789173534noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-83742484602343908852015-11-21T13:14:08.779-08:002015-11-21T13:14:08.779-08:00adam said...
Although they did it with good inten...adam said...<br /><br /><b>Although they did it with good intentions, if I were Charlie I would have told Sandy, Squeaky and co to shut the fuck up to the press and stop their little streetcorner protests. All they did was make themselves look nuts which Bug fed straight back into his 'Charlie manipulates and controls these people' spiel</b><br /><br /><br />The problem with this logic is that there were only 12 people in the universe with the power to put the 4 defendants away --> the jury. Bugliosi simply did not have that power. Rag on the man all you like, he did not. He even states that he was worried that the jury could scuttle all his hard work, remember that phrase of his, "it only takes one to hang a jury."<br />So in a real sense, he was powerless. <br />The jury on the other hand, were not. In fact, they held all the aces. And they were simply not aware of the action going on outside with Sandy & co on the street corner or what the press was writing. According to one of the jurors who wrote a book a year before "Helter Skelter", there were times when they were taken out of court, times they never even went to court, when Ronald Hughes disappeared they weren't in court for nearly a month and <i>no one told them why the whole time</i>, times they had to get to court through an underground tunnel, times when the windows to their bus were blacked out so they didn't know what was going on. There seemed to have been much that they weren't aware of and they weren't allowed to discuss the case among themselves. That is why they turned in on themselves and partly why William Zamora's book is so interesting, you get to see a group of jurors who came to resent the situation they were in and there was quite a bit of in fighting.<br />But they wanted to come to the right decision and not be influenced, even by the antics of the defendants. Some of them understood that desperate people sometimes act in desperate ways.<br /><br /><b>Also I wonder if it really was Charlie's idea to make Sadie, Katie and Lulu act up in court. Was he actually allowed contact with them during the trial outside of the courtroom?</b><br /><br /><br />Ah, yeah.grimtravellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00025774296829848608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-52691615172543459032012-02-22T12:29:53.667-08:002012-02-22T12:29:53.667-08:00I just dont get this whole motive argument. HS was...I just dont get this whole motive argument. HS was just a story told to the girls to keep them in the family. NONE of the guys beleived it, (except maybe clems dumbass)<br />he true motive is all about MONEY.<br />money to buy drugs, money to buy dune buggy parts, money to keep people in the family, money, money,money. All the male members new the true motive. Whether there may have been some secondary motives, Tex -drug burn, or whatever, it still about money and control not Helter SkelterAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-5901350815051096902011-07-07T15:54:00.744-07:002011-07-07T15:54:00.744-07:00Vera Dreiser said..."Uh, well, if you look at...Vera Dreiser said..."Uh, well, if you look at it that way it sure DIDN'T work. Beausoleil was no where NEAR getting off. Try again, bud."<br /><br />Of course it didn't work in taking the heat off of Bobby. I should've also stated that their intention was to also keep the police off of their trail.<br /><br />I'm not understanding the "try again, bud" part of your reply. If you're referring to me, I am in no way "trying" to do anything here but participate in the discussions.rfoster1https://www.blogger.com/profile/03498047285030700138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-49085785374562908762011-07-06T22:31:14.396-07:002011-07-06T22:31:14.396-07:00Rfoster1: "I believe the whole Helter Skelter...Rfoster1: "I believe the whole Helter Skelter thing was just a smoke screen to stymie the police, and started at the Hinman murder scene. The Tate-Labianca murderers continued the same theme in an attempt to take the heat off of Bobby Beausoleil.<br />It was no more than that, and it almost worked, were it not for that yappy skank Sadie."<br /><br />Uh, well, if you look at it that way it sure DIDN'T work. Beausoleil was no where NEAR getting off. Try again, bud.Vera Dreiserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16434785258950871234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-7228759104197691212011-07-06T18:42:31.940-07:002011-07-06T18:42:31.940-07:00Vera Dreiser said..."So, Col, and others, why...Vera Dreiser said..."So, Col, and others, why are you so firmly resistant to believing the girls and Tex (at least), believed in Helter Skelter?"<br /><br />I believe the whole Helter Skelter thing was just a smoke screen to stymie the police, and started at the Hinman murder scene. The Tate-Labianca murderers continued the same theme in an attempt to take the heat off of Bobby Beausoleil.<br /><br />It was no more than that, and it almost worked, were it not for that yappy skank Sadie.<br /><br />For whatever reasons, the Bug latched onto the story and ran with it. I'm sure he must've recognized that crazy ass story would be a gold mine he could bank on for the rest of his life.<br /><br />I believe it's no more complicated than that.rfoster1https://www.blogger.com/profile/03498047285030700138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-90689648016696934892011-06-25T22:04:53.385-07:002011-06-25T22:04:53.385-07:00I don't think Kay bought into the HS theory th...I don't think Kay bought into the HS theory that much. Plus Leslie's defence team argued that she was more shellshocked than anything else that night and only stabbed a dead body at the insistence of Tex. By making the jury focus on the sack of coins, Kay was able to convince them that as Leslie had enough frame of mind to help herself to whatever took her fancy in the LaBianca's home, she was responsable for her part in the stabbings.adamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01933298225285078484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-15031567181954107292011-06-25T21:01:22.980-07:002011-06-25T21:01:22.980-07:00Magpie- It may not be considered unethical or und...Magpie- It may not be considered unethical or underhanded in legal circles.<br /><br />But I think it's still worth pointing out, that instead of going with the "official" motive the D.A's office in 1977-78 found it necessary to go with robbery as the motive.<br /><br />By then the book and the movie had been seen by millions of people.<br />Bugliosi's Helter Skelter was generally accepted by the masses as fact.<br />Surely the D.A. could have resold it to a new jury, with little trouble.<br /><br />Unless of course it wasn't true.<br /><br />Murder for a sack of nickels wasn't exactly an easy sell.<br />Leslie's first retrial ended in a hung jury.sbuch113https://www.blogger.com/profile/01794368422535955408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-23313040376955038592011-06-25T20:08:27.713-07:002011-06-25T20:08:27.713-07:00sbuch113: My understanding is that without co-cons...sbuch113: My understanding is that without co-conspirators on trial with her, the HS tripe would have been near impossible to prove, so they went with the "murder during comission of a robbery" in order to get the equivalent verdict for LVH in the absence of Tex and the others.<br /><br />Not uncommon and not considered unethical or underhanded in legal circles.Magpiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01346720773777530414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-18298782749765610752011-06-25T11:21:12.773-07:002011-06-25T11:21:12.773-07:00If Helter Skelter is the indesputable motive, why ...If Helter Skelter is the indesputable motive, why wasn't it presented at leslie Van houten's retrial? Robbery was the motive at that time......the sack of coins she took.<br /><br />Sharon's mother, Doris Tate never believed Helter Skelter. She said Helter Skelter was a "concoction" of the D.A.. Doris felt the true motive was never told and Sharon was a victim of circumstance......wrong place, wrong time.<br /><br />Bobby beausoliel, on Helter Skelter........."I guess because I know the truth, to me that explaination seems ridiculously simplified. How can anybody not see through that? Murder by Beatles records-this is what happens if you listen to Beatles records and take LSD!? What could be a more blatant attempt to discredit the youth movement of the 60's than that? To use that theory as the basis of convicting these people stretches credibility to the breaking point".<br /><br />Bugliosi himself pointed out that he only went with Helter Skelter because he had to.sbuch113https://www.blogger.com/profile/01794368422535955408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-62293894437467394932011-06-25T10:21:27.300-07:002011-06-25T10:21:27.300-07:00It's not so much that Bug made up Helter Skelt...It's not so much that Bug made up Helter Skelter as he singlemindedly honed in on it as the sole motive to the point of excluding any other potential avenues. He went for the option that pointed the finger at Manson as the ringleader - again as I've stated before, if he'd had his hands on Tex he would not have - . Also as Sadie withdrew her testamony, Bug was able to pick and choose what parts of it Linda was to repeat on the stand.adamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01933298225285078484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-33747262583535858542011-06-25T09:56:55.859-07:002011-06-25T09:56:55.859-07:00Adam: "Anything Sadie bragged to Howard and G...Adam: "Anything Sadie bragged to Howard and Graham in prison must be taken with a large pinch of salt."<br /><br />Yes, but when you go through the two documents recording Howard's first statements to the police re: Atkins accounts (pre-Dec. 1, 1969) you see that on the essentials Atkins was clear, concise, consistent and correct about EVERYTHING except whether or not she personally stabbed Sharon Tate. It was Howard (and later Graham) who sometimes were confused about the details. <br />Point being, for the purposes of this thread: she talked about Helter Skelter and inciting blacks to violence AGES before Poston, Watkins and Jacobson introduced it to the conversation. <br />As such, I ask again, how could the Bug have simply made it up as the Col alleges and, really, defines the very foundation of this web site? <br />Anyone?Vera Dreiserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16434785258950871234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-43054797928637591992011-06-25T01:03:59.886-07:002011-06-25T01:03:59.886-07:00Anything Sadie bragged to Howard and Graham in pri...Anything Sadie bragged to Howard and Graham in prison must be taken with a large pinch of salt. Plus none of the killers claim that Charlie directly told them to commit murder. Bug had to rely on statments such as "I knew/felt that's what he wanted me to do".adamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01933298225285078484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-89650435170203125812011-06-24T23:51:07.205-07:002011-06-24T23:51:07.205-07:00leary7 said...
"Is there anyone on these blog...leary7 said...<br />"Is there anyone on these blogs who argues Helter Skelter was legit?<br />Personally, HS as a specific motive doesn't work for me, but when seen as an "umbrella" explanation it has some merit."<br /><br />i wouldn't call it an umbrella, but i think it was one of the ideas somewhere in the complex mix of factors that led to the T-LB murders, but how much of a factor is an interesting question, I definitely don't think it was the main motive, maybe a useful bit of added impetus...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-32743829446632000262011-06-24T23:45:23.328-07:002011-06-24T23:45:23.328-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-21705799092309220032011-06-24T12:09:01.401-07:002011-06-24T12:09:01.401-07:00See Col,
There is a good case to be made for th...See Col, <br /><br />There is a good case to be made for the Helter Skelter motive as true and accurate -- at least as far as the killers are concerned. <br />I've seen the trscpt of Howard's first taped int w/ the LAPD on Nov. 25, 1969, and notes of her Nov. 18 int w/ the LAPD -- and in both she tells the police that Atkins told her "Helter Skelter" was written at the LaBianca home, that it was "from a song" and represented, "like, this new movement." <br />In the 2nd, transcribed interview (Nov. 25) Howard specifically states that the Tate-LaBianca murders were committed to "make colored people wake up and take notice that this is what they should do to get what they want out of the world, you know, some violence."<br />So, this argument that the motive was conjured up by Bugliosi many, many months later through prosecution witnesses Jakobson, Watkins and Poston doesn't hold a lot of water. Unless you believe the Bug was already at work Nov. 18 and 26, 1969, orchestrating his false motive from behind-the-scenes. Remember, he wasn't even assigned to the case until Nov. 18, the day of Howard's first interview.<br /><br />So, Col, and others, why are you so firmly resistant to believing the girls and Tex (at least), believed in Helter Skelter?<br /><br />What is YOUR proof they didn't???Vera Dreiserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16434785258950871234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-54616117312761890212011-06-24T05:48:33.081-07:002011-06-24T05:48:33.081-07:00Col you are the Bernie Madoff of bloggers.Col you are the Bernie Madoff of bloggers.MrPoirothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06155552886069024565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-5623672926647569312011-06-23T19:46:56.877-07:002011-06-23T19:46:56.877-07:00I agree totally Adam. In the context of the times ...I agree totally Adam. In the context of the times Charlie's rap wasn't all that bizzare. But still, believing he was Christ returned marks Family members as borderline insane.<br />Group think - Guyana, My Lai, etc etc - getting idiots like Clem and Tex and Sadie etc to do his dirty work was a piece of cake for a con wise guy like Manson.leary7https://www.blogger.com/profile/16573687537798248297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-13070667676696076492011-06-23T19:34:07.209-07:002011-06-23T19:34:07.209-07:00AIG could work for me. There were lots of counter ...AIG could work for me. There were lots of counter revolutionary groups around at the time - Black Panthers, Red Family, Weathermen,etc.. <br />I wonder if Charlie's preachings set their acid addled minds into thinking they were fighting a similar fight? Much of what Charlie said made a lot of sense, but that type of thinking in the wrong hands could be dangerous.adamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01933298225285078484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-65524348672252980692011-06-23T13:24:44.698-07:002011-06-23T13:24:44.698-07:00Seems we can all agree about some things....
and ...Seems we can all agree about some things....<br /><br />and that is a good thingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-30459125066230377042011-06-23T10:51:02.521-07:002011-06-23T10:51:02.521-07:00Is there anyone on these blogs who argues Helter S...Is there anyone on these blogs who argues Helter Skelter was legit?<br />Personally, HS as a specific motive doesn't work for me, but when seen as an "umbrella" explanation it has some merit.<br /><br />Bottom line, its been forty plus years and still no concrete evidence of mafia or drug burns. so what are we left with? AIG.<br />AIG explains it for me. Anger, Idiots and Guns. It is a biblical recipe for disastour...think Columbine, Tuscon, etc.<br />Was the Family comprised of idiots? It's a rhetorical question. Grogan and his scrambled brains, Tex and his bella donna insanity, Sadie and her vile skankiness, Lulu and her angel wings....these folk were fried to the gills.<br />That is the biggest myth, THE BIGGEST LIE, of the TLB story, that Manson took a bunch of normal middle class kids and turned them into monsters. Calling Sandy, Squeeky, Tex etc idiots is an insult to idiots. These people were delusional zombies, retarded psychos. What did Gypsy say, it took her ten years after Spahn to clear her head, and she was probably the most intelligent of the bunch.<br /><br />And ANGER. Let's count the ways Manson was pissed off on 8/8/69.<br />He was pissed about Crowe and the percieved Panther threat.<br />He was pissed about Bobby's arrest and how it made him vunverable.<br />He was pissed about Mary and Sandy's arrest<br />He was pissed about the eminent loss of Spahn and not having the funds to get to the desert.<br />He was pissed about losing control and people leaving (TJ, Ella Jo etc).<br />He was really pissed at Melcher and Wilson.<br />He was pissed at society and his mother and a thousand other things.<br />You cut away all of Charlie's jive ass bullshit and you have one angry SOB. He admits that himself.<br /><br />While I respect everyone's theories and beliefs, I also suspect fifty years from now all we will have is the same round and round the mullberry bush speculation.<br />Anger and idiots.<br />Helter Skelter was just a way for the Bug to package it to the jury. And Charlie and the girls sold the package with their behavior. How hard was it to convince the jury that Manson was a killer when he leaps out of his seat and lunges at the judge. Or to convince the jury the girls were zombie killers with their robot behavior?<br />Sure, Helter Skelter is bullshit as a specific motive. But it sold.<br />Can't argue with that.leary7https://www.blogger.com/profile/16573687537798248297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-33280344475194627332011-06-22T21:34:23.981-07:002011-06-22T21:34:23.981-07:00actually, just saw the price, so, I AM counting on...actually, just saw the price, so, I AM counting on you for the relevant information from itAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-89874346357643563322011-06-22T21:25:42.358-07:002011-06-22T21:25:42.358-07:00Are there more than interview transcripts in Hendr...Are there more than interview transcripts in Hendrickson's book? Do you recommend it? I'll probably get it anyway, still, I'd like to hear people's impressions...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-20468780376842841292011-06-22T20:12:22.056-07:002011-06-22T20:12:22.056-07:00the moon must be made of cheese because I too thin...the moon must be made of cheese because I too think the Saint's posts are dead on.<br />Charlie and the girls behavior during the trial really does support the belief that TLB was a crazy concoction of idiocy and anger.<br />I don't think you can apply logic to Manson anymore than you can reason with a fool.leary7https://www.blogger.com/profile/16573687537798248297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-33761496404185496692011-06-21T09:56:35.266-07:002011-06-21T09:56:35.266-07:00It does seem that Charlie at times was willingly s...It does seem that Charlie at times was willingly sticking his head in the noose. I wonder if he and the girls thought they were going to beat the rap or not? Maybe they just gave up. I think Sadie in paticular had a death wish.adamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01933298225285078484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-423943744075916912011-06-21T09:39:32.812-07:002011-06-21T09:39:32.812-07:00adam: I dont know if he was able to but I read in ...adam: I dont know if he was able to but I read in one of the books some girl gave Sadie a kite saying charlie said to put on X on yur heads-they didnt know why but they did it -( not sure the book will have to check thru them)candy and nutshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01871828104812368464noreply@blogger.com