tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post5675201678739635301..comments2023-11-03T03:18:55.138-07:00Comments on Official Tate-LaBianca Murders Blog: TLB Discussion Group #1/// Free Gift #1 ColScotthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04198505620789173534noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-71161692037797088842017-07-24T09:37:20.354-07:002017-07-24T09:37:20.354-07:00It isn't necessary for you to believe in Helte...It isn't necessary for you to believe in Helter Skelter, it isn't necessary that Manson believe in Helter Skelter, it isn't necessary that Paul, of Brooks, or Al Springer, or Danny DeCarlo believe in Helter Skelter.<br /><br />What does matter is that the girls believed in it. They certainly talked like they believed in it. Whether Tex believed in it is an open question, perhaps the only open question, and maybe the tapes would answer that definitively. <br /><br />Regardless, I think Manson believed it was a useful tool to manipulate and encourage the others. Every cult I know of uses some kind of doomsday scenario for the same purpose. So, it may not be HIS motive for directing/suggesting/ hinting-at murder, but people lie in order to get other people to act on those lies for all sorts of reasons including committing robbery and murder. I believe Manson used Helter Skelter to retain control over and increase the alienation of the family. Clem, Watson and Tex have indicated that the core family members were starting to drift apart. The murders just took Helter Skelter to the ultimate next step. Nobody could deny that shit wasn't "coming down fast" after that.<br /><br />I don't think Manson had some grand plan to use Helter Skelter to convince people to murder when he came up with the idea. I think it's important to understand that the murders weren't the end result, they were just one more step. The end result was continued loyalty from the family. <br /><br />My impression is that Manson lived about one step ahead of the law, but that's about it. In a time before CSI this probably wasn't very difficult. Killing somebody and getting away with their shit is the easy part. But I think even Manson saw the writing on the wall, particularly after Gary Hinman, that it was only a matter of time. Under those circumstances, desperate times called for desperate measures.<br /><br />I wouldn't fault Bugliosi for using the Helter Skelter motive even if he knew it was somewhat disingenuous - Charlie served it up to him on a plate with watercress around it and I think that there is little doubt that Manson was the head of the snake, not Tex. Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08760641498649508874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-67790927866024963782014-02-06T14:48:58.076-08:002014-02-06T14:48:58.076-08:00Here's something: I sorta met someone from Tec...Here's something: I sorta met someone from Tecopa area way back when. Said when they first started playing live they tried to use the Manson infamy to garner interest in the band and it blew up in their face. People stopped supporting them, got scared off. Cuntry Trashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05721594982194464895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-6833157223045927262013-11-12T08:17:53.817-08:002013-11-12T08:17:53.817-08:00Patty thinks red herring, along with pointing a gu...Patty thinks red herring, along with pointing a gun at random passing cars.Patty is Deadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07717777500117142160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-56416224547905463192013-11-12T01:53:21.667-08:002013-11-12T01:53:21.667-08:00Leary I like your point about Manson leaving the h...Leary I like your point about Manson leaving the hit squads with no transport.<br /><br />What if Hit-Squad 2 had been successful? With the LaBiancas we have all manner of theories from Mafia to sex sellers, but what about that actor fella who wasn't killed?<br /><br />It seems to be generally accepted he was some random that Kasabian hooked up with randomly.<br /><br />Or was he the red herring to distract from the real motive at the LaBiancas, or were the LaBiancas the red herring to distract from the motive at Tate?Chris Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14711422705919582549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-40653691101079345992013-11-10T07:20:44.581-08:002013-11-10T07:20:44.581-08:00No, Tom. Looks like the contents have since been r...No, Tom. Looks like the contents have since been removed.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06766282574442161929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-55471466115540496132013-11-10T06:56:47.458-08:002013-11-10T06:56:47.458-08:00Thank you for sharing. I enjoyed the comments thre...Thank you for sharing. I enjoyed the comments thread very much and would now like to hear the recording. However, when I follow the "Free Gift #1" link it takes me to an empty Dropbox folder. Does it work for othersTom Schultehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00980482993430051355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-3871347202446555322013-11-08T22:41:03.823-08:002013-11-08T22:41:03.823-08:00wow, the beast and a graph. Not sure exactly what ...wow, the beast and a graph. Not sure exactly what you are talking about KS, but it was entertaining.<br /><br />Be glad to email you Patty. I will have to figure out how, maybe just send it to Matt and have him forward it. Wait, maybe your email address is on the homepage.<br /><br />Here's one that has stayed with me. Charlie wasn't stupid. And he knew he had the Crowe thing and possibly the Himman thing hanging over his head which would send him back to the slammer for life. In fact, isn't that what he specifically said to Sadie when she returned from Cielo - "you've just put me back in jail you stupid bitch" or something to that effect. <br />Well, so here he is on the second night driving around for hours with seven people in the small car (imagine bottling that odor) and he drops off his first hit squad at Waverly and takes his second trio to that actor's apt...and then he takes off. Ostensibly from what I remember reading he just drives himself back to Spahn.<br />The image of Tex, Katie and Lulu sitting on the bench at the bus stop after carving up the LaBiancas will always blow my mind. <br />Point is....why would Charlie leave his hit squads "out there" to fend for themselves and vunerable to detection. Unless maybe he had someplace to go, or someone to see and something to drop off, say a little black book. <br />So much of TLB makes little sense, but Manson leaving his killers out there with no means of fleeing the crime scene in a reasonable manner just always struck me as beyond stupid for someone seemingly so intent on survival.leary7https://www.blogger.com/profile/16573687537798248297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-16018597679434156872013-11-07T19:05:31.701-08:002013-11-07T19:05:31.701-08:00HS is BS. Amen. But...
If you look at the mayhem ...HS is BS. <i>Amen</i>. But...<br /><br />If you look at the mayhem as a simple graph over time you see a line sloping upward, with milestones at certain key points, peaking with TL, and tapering off with other incidents post-TL. I think that while the beast was there before CM and after CM, it was CM who jumped on its back and controlled it for a while. I can only guess, of course, but I think most of it can be explained by CM experiencing power for the first time in his pathetic life.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02379330617242007038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-61564570176153570812013-11-07T16:23:33.954-08:002013-11-07T16:23:33.954-08:00PS: Leary, pls email Patty some time. No this is n...PS: Leary, pls email Patty some time. No this is not a booty call.Patty is Deadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07717777500117142160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-40543906680059876542013-11-07T15:52:44.134-08:002013-11-07T15:52:44.134-08:00Leary you are absolutely right...that's what i...Leary you are absolutely right...that's what it might have been. Patty is reading "Coreyography" right now: Corey Feldman's memories of Corey Haim and the abuses they suffered at the hands of a circle of 1980s Hollywood pedophiles. People are into some kinky shit. Some of it may be "acceptable," some of it absolutely not. Patty thinks Liam Neeson did a good job bringing this point home in Kinsey. But for as many dangerous sexual deviations out there, there are just as many not so dangerous ones. Like, somebody who likes to grease up in a ball pit full of hard boiled eggs isnt hurting anybody.<br /><br />drugs are different. Most people like one or more of them, legal or not. And they cost money, honey. and theyre generally more dangerous than sex unless youre David Carradine. Its a numbers game.Patty is Deadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07717777500117142160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-3337115522191576962013-11-06T19:36:19.055-08:002013-11-06T19:36:19.055-08:00Of course I know it is a ridiculous theory, but if...Of course I know it is a ridiculous theory, but if you ask the question what Spahn, Cielo and Waverly all had in common then it glimmers just a little bit. Spahn was free sex central. Rumors had Cielo being kink city. And it is documented that Rosemary had both a large and varied sex life. Could she not have been a secret dominixtrix or madam. Could the dress shop not have been a front. Everybody looks at the drugs as the tie that binds. I just think if someone like Don DeLillo did a Manson book (like his treatment of Oswald in 'Libra') he just might focus on the sex angle more than the drugs...if only because it is more interesting to most folk.leary7https://www.blogger.com/profile/16573687537798248297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-22798378650243085692013-11-01T07:36:34.424-07:002013-11-01T07:36:34.424-07:00Remember Bob Crane of Hogan's Heroes? I think...Remember Bob Crane of Hogan's Heroes? I think he was killed over sex.<br /><br />Also, maybe:<br /><br />http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2013/10/liverpool_homicide_suspect_was_in_love_triangle_with_women_he_stabbed_to_death_s.html#incart_m-rpt-2#incart_hbx#incart_best-ofstarshiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13207679706874165027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-20650865783247198702013-10-29T03:30:12.852-07:002013-10-29T03:30:12.852-07:00Leary7 said: "You don't think the record ...Leary7 said: "You don't think the record company would go to hell and back to squelch something like that. Or the movie company..."<br /><br />Absolutely… but I see that as more likely to come into play after the murders rather than causing 'em.brownricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13464358994525566519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-62272799747202837712013-10-28T23:54:15.417-07:002013-10-28T23:54:15.417-07:00mucho thanks for the response brownrice. It still ...mucho thanks for the response brownrice. It still just doesn't seem right with 42 years of research we can't get definitive answers on Rosemary's money, the black book or the alleged sex films.<br />And though you and Patty are two of my favorite folk on these blogs, I still don't get your assertion that people don't kill for sex. Maybe I should explain that when I say sex, I mean sex and all it sub headings - sexual obsessions, inadaquacies, peversions, jealousies, etc etc.<br />All I am saying is think about this - the Beach Boys were BIG money earners not just for themselves but for their record company and others. What if there were films of Dennis Wilson in orgies and even in some gay stuff with Little Paulie or such. You don't think the record company would go to hell and back to squelch something like that. Or the movie company of Cary Grant or Steve McQueen or Candice Bergen. <br />Someone blogged that it was the 60's, it was Cal, everyone was doing it - sex was no big deal. Yeah, but is still didn't play in Peoria, as they say.<br />I just respectfully disagree with that conclusion - i.e. that people don't usually kill for sex. leary7https://www.blogger.com/profile/16573687537798248297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-71393380895256700862013-10-28T07:25:15.466-07:002013-10-28T07:25:15.466-07:00Yeah...Castle. Patty wonders about that. And she w...Yeah...Castle. Patty wonders about that. And she wonders if Mr. Billy came out on top after the great shakedown of 69.Patty is Deadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07717777500117142160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-13756199486348128752013-10-27T21:26:56.900-07:002013-10-27T21:26:56.900-07:00Given that Leno's bank is described in various...Given that Leno's bank is described in various sources as a "mafia bank", it's probably a pretty good chance they dealt with the bermuda banking system… probably with Castle Bank & Trust…<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Bank_&_Trust_%28Bahamas%29<br /><br />… as did the Brotherhood & Tricky Dick Nixon. The brotherhood's involvement was largely due to Billy Mellon Hitchcock's connections. Nixon's contacts were probably the same as "Mr Billy's"… i.e. the CIA.and/or the mafia .brownricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13464358994525566519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-83395841460996372022013-10-27T16:01:44.059-07:002013-10-27T16:01:44.059-07:00Patty is curious to know if Leno's bank did mu...Patty is curious to know if Leno's bank did much business in Bermuda? What was it...Bank of Hollywood? Also, assuming Rosemary's accounts were there, how many transactions did she normally make and with whom? These records are likely long gone, but it would be cool if someone mails them to Cielo one day. :)Patty is Deadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07717777500117142160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-61803856895928729952013-10-27T05:36:24.552-07:002013-10-27T05:36:24.552-07:001. Rosemary's alleged fortune has never been e...1. Rosemary's alleged fortune has never been explained but it's never really been proven or authenticated either... despite the best efforts of quite a few good researchers.<br /><br />2. Charlie mentions the black book in at least one (possibly more) interviews. The story about the detective having it originated (I'm pretty sure) with Bill Nelson.<br /><br />3. The rumours about the sex films are still just that... rumours.<br /><br />Which is not to say of course that these things aren't true... just that none of 'em have been proven. Just like many another part of this case. <br /><br />Personally, I've always felt that Charlie & the girls' alleged popularity as party guests in the mid to upper levels of the Hollywood showbiz circuit played a large part in the confusion created around this case... but I think drugs played a pretty big part as well. Like Patty said, people don't usually kill for sex. brownricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13464358994525566519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-17681172078289669192013-10-25T21:44:25.658-07:002013-10-25T21:44:25.658-07:00I'm sorry, but I am just to damn lazy to go ba...I'm sorry, but I am just to damn lazy to go back and check all the old threads to find out the answer to these questions.<br />1. Has Rosemary's money ever been completely explained.<br />2. I remember reading about a supposed "black book" Charlie to from the LaBianca's, but then I read it was a cop that had it and so on. What is the bottom line on the black book?<br />3. Is there any update or definitive conclusion to all the rumors about sex films in relation to both the Family and also some with supposed movie stars?<br />Just asking,leary7https://www.blogger.com/profile/16573687537798248297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-42182035110926891972013-10-24T12:20:39.570-07:002013-10-24T12:20:39.570-07:00OK, Patty gets you now Leary. Have a good day xxOK, Patty gets you now Leary. Have a good day xxPatty is Deadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07717777500117142160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-64702773612432597222013-10-24T11:33:55.522-07:002013-10-24T11:33:55.522-07:00I appreciate the humor, but obviously we are not t...I appreciate the humor, but obviously we are not talking about sex per se...we are talking about reputations. And in Hollywood reputations are worth millions in box office dollars, especially back in the 60's. If there were films and black books and such, why isn't it possible. Actually, I don't believe in it myself, but it does make a much more interesting fictional narrative.<br /><br />You got me all wrong Patty. Personally I have been out to pasture for a long time now. I just think sex is underrated as far as motive is concerned. Someone once told me that there are two main reasons for divorce - sex and money. And sex is the larger one.leary7https://www.blogger.com/profile/16573687537798248297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-78634538411575289442013-10-23T11:18:16.731-07:002013-10-23T11:18:16.731-07:00Gee, so I'm the only one who wants to brutally...Gee, so I'm the only one who wants to brutally kill someone with a knife after bad sex? Golly.<br /><br />Just kidding. But if the bad sex is my fault then I just want to kill myself...starshiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13207679706874165027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-59982890134561949592013-10-23T11:11:23.957-07:002013-10-23T11:11:23.957-07:00When sex is good, it's great. When it's no...When sex is good, it's great. When it's not so good, it's still ok.Suzehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17042563411146539890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-39449950622383317632013-10-23T09:39:03.259-07:002013-10-23T09:39:03.259-07:00And again, and againAnd again, and againPatty is Deadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07717777500117142160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14352935.post-72960949846395181112013-10-23T09:27:04.510-07:002013-10-23T09:27:04.510-07:00Try again!Try again!Patty is Deadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07717777500117142160noreply@blogger.com